TSR: In Ur Accounts, Deletin Ur Stuffs!

[Echo]

Well this one in particular stands out in my memory:
http://tsr.mustbedestroyed.org/?p=824 ...

That is clearly an interpretive statement. The events described occurred, just not quite as interpreted.

And herein lies the problem. People keep reading interpretive statements, and touting them as facts.
"Coconut has a copy of a list of names which match the names and comments from an online petition." That is a fact.
"Thomas hacked the petition and distributed a copy amongst his FAs." That is an interpretation.
The fact has been proven conclusively, and lacking any counter-evidence, it stands. The interpretation is just theory. It is unproven. It may be correct, it may not be. It's hard to say without proof, and the important thing is to prove it is true, not that it isn't.

[SnarkyShark]

Huh, johan and echo showing up at the same time?

[johan]

Do you not find Cala, Coconut, Pes & all the other community members that have come forward with evidence as reliable sources? Where do you think Cala gets her info? Coconut. Why do you keep trying to discredit most of the evidence at hand, all the while insisting on seeing more of it?

For example: There is no evidence that TSR has done any of the hacking we get the blame for or that TSR Workshop contains trojans/whatever.

Please don't bring up the watermarked pirates name sharing as evidence for something else, we don't deny that took place, we even wrote about it in a public statement on TSR.

This is not the first time i've read about people filing complaints to various authorities about TSR doing something bad, was that just talk or did anyone actually do it?

[SnarkyShark]

Please, don't tell us what we can and cannot bring up. Not your site. Got it?

[Echo]

Huh, johan and echo showing up at the same time?

Well I don't know about johan, but I'm totally skiving off work.

[johan]

Huh, johan and echo showing up at the same time?

Well I don't know about johan, but I'm totally skiving off work.

And i'm totally going to get some sleep

[Moune]

Look, I’ve already said more than once that I’m not calling for evidence to be laid out here in detail. But I do think one or two people need to come forward and confirm that such evidence does in fact exists. I hope the difference between those two things is clear.

A couple of pages back Cala confirmed that there is substantial evidence to prove that Atwa distributed the list. Good. Fine. That is all we need to know. Don’t tell me that Cala’s statement helped TSR in any way.

Even further back Pescado explained why it was likely that TSR was behind the alleged hacking of Bluesoup’s petition. Good. Fine. Again that is all we need to know. And again that didn’t help TSR.

So let’s stop this ‘talking about it will help TSR’, please. It won’t.

There are still holes pertaining to the hacking of the petition, though, which is why I keep asking if anybody can actually confirm that it was hacked – apart from what Bluesoup might have said or told them.

And it’s a crucial point. If it can’t be established that the petition was hacked, what we basically have is Atwa – possibly with the knowledge of Thomas – sending out a list of names and email addresses to her friends and asking them to pass them on. That isn’t nice, but in itself it isn’t terribly incriminating.

Everybody who has their first name and/or email address posted somewhere on the internet run the risk of all those nasty things No No No posted above. A list similar to the petition list could easily be compiled by going through a few Sims forums. Spammers and scammers get their information all over the internet every day. Neither the FBI nor the Swedish police have the resources to deal with them all and this is not a particularly big and important case.

Unless you could prove that Atwa had malicious intent and was going to sell or give the list to people who were going to use it for identity theft, credit card fraud etc, of course. I don’t know if that was her intention or if she just stayed within the borders of the Sims community. That goes for WB’s case, too. And by the way, yes, such an experience would be unpleasant, but I have seen plenty of people’s lives messed with much, much more seriously.

However, if it can be established that the petition was hacked and that the list could only have come from the hacking, then you have a completely different case. Especially since according to Pescado’s information it is likely that TSR is behind the hacking. So now they are suddenly guilty of three things. 1) Hacking. 2) Distributing information that has been obtained illegally. 3) Distributing personal information with or without malicious intent. That’s quite a different ballgame and a case that any authority would have a harder time dismissing. I will almost assure you that the Swedish police will listen to a complaint of that order – and it wouldn’t matter one bit if it came in an email from a foreigner.

And now I will repeat myself for the second time:

Nothing we say or don’t say here can do anything to prevent TSR from destroying or doctoring evidence. They’ve already done that. They know better than us what proof there is against them. And no matter how this pans out they will have plenty of time to mount a defence. They are entitled to that.

I don’t think the sheep should wait. I think they are entitled to know what’s going on. Coconut & Co did count on a community outcry, and if you want to use the sheeple at least have the decency to treat them with respect. Meaning give us at least a minimum of information and answer our questions. Also simply to convince any doubters out here.

I honestly, seriously don’t think a whole lot of people would have reacted and sent complaints to the FBI or whomever if they had just privately found out that their name and email address had been taken from a petition and distributed through private mails and messages – without the public outcry in several forums and a great number of people shouting about how horrible and illegal and dangerous this is. They would probably have felt concerned or horrified, but very, very few would actually have taken action.

Paden, I tried to send you a PM – a nice one – but your inbox is full.

Alright, 10 new posts went us as I was typing this. Haven’t read them. It’s late, and I’m off to bed.

[Paden]

Johan, please to be fucking off and die, kthnxbai. WedgewoodBlue's question was why was she not informed of your site being supposedly hacked and her information possible gotten because her account, was in fact, affected over there. She wants to know WHY was she not informed and WHY aren't the passwords safely encrypted, you douche bag. WHY do YOU have problems reading people's questions in a rational way, you twerp?

ETA: Moune, there is space cleared, so it should have been able to land in there by now. I did it while you were typing out your reply.

[SnarkyShark]

Well I don't know about johan, but I'm totally skiving off work.

And i'm totally going to get some sleep

Okay then, echohan. Maybe the two of you should get a room. -  

[Pescado]

Everybody who has their first name and/or email address posted somewhere on the internet run the risk of all those nasty things No No No posted above. A list similar to the petition list could easily be compiled by going through a few Sims forums.

There is a flaw in this explanation. While it is POSSIBLE that a similar list could be compiled by independent research, the list contained two things which rule that out as impossible:
1. The list contains the comment that a user could optionally include with their signature. This information would be unique to the petition.
2. The petition also contained some false data: Joke signatures of fictitious people and impostors. This false data does not exist on the Internet, because it is fabricated, and yet is faithfully reproduced. There is no other way this data could be acquired.

[Moune]

Okay, have read. Will answer quickly.

You keep asking for Pes & even Coconut to come here & post about what evidence they have seen or know about. The evidence is all around you. It's here in this forum, it's on Coconuts blog, it's posted & talked about on Sims Cave & Black Pearl Sims just to name a few. You know dam well as i do that these things do exist. Why do you keep playing both sides of the fence? Why do you keep insisting on digging for more info?

No, I damn well do not know that these things exist. And if you do, then you obviously have access to information that the rest of us don’t know about. If you want to call what I’m doing ‘playing both sides of the fence’, then you have a lot to learn. I keep asking for more information, because the information currently available is not enough to convince me – and probably many others – about this case.

Do you not find Cala, Coconut, Pes & all the other community members that have come forward with evidence as reliable sources? Where do you think Cala gets her info? Coconut. Why do you keep trying to discredit most of the evidence at hand, all the while insisting on seeing more of it?

I’m not discrediting anything. I will, however, continue to ask questions until I get the answers I need. If you bothered to read my previous posts then you will see that I have happily accepted both Cala and Pes’ statements and explanations as sufficient and reliable. Here’s a little tip: There is a very, very big difference between actually having seen something or just having been told about it.

More digging for info from you & yes you are digging.

Damn right, I am digging and will continue to do so. You be happy that there are people like me in the real world who will keep digging and not just take anything for an answer.

Do we know that Bluesoup used her TSR password for the petition or is this just something we think probable?

No she didn't. It was hacked.

You also need to read Pescado’s posts. He explained earlier that one indication that TSR was behind the hacking was that Bluesoup probably used her TSR password for the petition and they pulled that out of their database and used it to get in. Hacking the petition otherwise would have required super skills in the hacking department, and TSR doesn’t have that. Pes explains it much better than me. Go back and read.

How do we know the petition was hacked? Do we only have Bluesoup’s word for this or is there anything to back that up?

When the petition was hacked it was offline for a bit if i remember correctly & the petition site had to restore it. If anyone remembers this or i have it wrong please feel free to add to this or correct me in my thinking.

Right. Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. This is good information. Anybody else remember something about this?

Are we sure that the information could only have been obtained from the hacking?

Once again the info was only obtained from the petition being hacked. Nuff said!

No, the information clearly came from the petition, but it didn’t necessarily come from a hacking. Think WitchBoy! There are plenty of possibilities. Bluesoup could have given it to them, for instance. Or the petition could have been sent to EA and the information could have come from there.

ETA:
Pes, no, no, no. When I say a similar list I mean a similar list. Not an exact copy of this list, okay.
Now will you tell us what you know about the hacking and how you know it?

[missangelica]

*peeks in and looks around*  Has some a lot of kool aid been drunk or are there some sock puppets playing with us?  Or have some accounts been hijacked because of using "same password here as tsr" tomfoolery?

Moune--that is if you are Moune--Pescado will never lay out all his cards.  I think it's cute you keep asking though.

[kenmtl]

echo I'd like to ask you straight out what your opinion is of coconut and the info she provides.  I'm asking because, regardless differences of opinion you seem to be at least thoughtful and well reasoned in your POV's and I don't necessarily get the impression that you're a defender of TSR, however to be honest I am questioning why you chose to make an appearance at this particular moment in time.

Do you think coconut is really printing the truth as she knows/hears/receives it and with good intentions or do you think she's just trying to nefariously stir shit for TSR with heresay and insinuations ? Honestly I'm not trying to be aggressive, just trying to figure out where your coming from and I get the feeling you appreciate straight talk.

P.S. While I got you. Who do I have to fuck to get the Purity Project stuff for TS3 ? 

[Paden]

Ken, I get the feeling that by asking the question in that manner, you have just disqualified yourself from anything with Purity in the name, dude.

[missangelica]

Hey Kenmtl, didn't you know that Coconut is just a scorned SA that couldn't make FA?  She spends hundreds of hours making up these screenshots of all these people and since she stalks them, she can make it sound exactly like them and write how they write with typos and all.  

And yeah, I agree with Paden.  You just tarnished the purity project's soul with your word of curse!  It is making the saddest frowny face. ever.