TSR: In Ur Accounts, Deletin Ur Stuffs!

[No No No]

Excuse me, what? Who the hell do you think you are? This has everything to do with the community. Providing information to the community is crucial and the opinion of the community does matter very much.

Why, if the entire community consisted of the 600+ names on that list, you would have been right!

The entire community was not directly affected and endangered by this criminal act, (except in their opinion) so all they need to know now are the basics, as to not give TSR a heads up on what to prepare for.
If you want to demand the details of this, go ahead, but you will be providing TSR with what they need to yet again escape justice.

In the case that Coconut speaks the truth (I believe she is), she says she has plenty of evidence and is willing to hand it over to a lawyer. That means she has plenty of evidence to start an investigation and legal action.
Now if she refuses to hand this over to the FBI you can conclude it was all bullshit. I sure will.

In the case that TSR is not responsible for this, and you are on the list, you will still need to talk and report to the FBI. Unless you feel like throwing someone's full name and email and even adress on the internet for everyone to see, is normal.

Coconut and others – you perhaps – are riling up half the community by telling us that Atwa/TSR has hacked a petition and distributed personal information. You kick up a sentiment and on the momentum of that a number of individuals take action. But only – ONLY – because they have half the community backing them up. If this had come out in some little backdoor subforum at a minor site, nobody would have done anything.

Nobody did anything, really. The community (barring those 600+) currently can't do much, because all of this has to be proven for the proper authorities first. It is not wise to put out the information you have, where your possible perpetrator can read it before the FBI even takes a look at it.

So Coconut and others – you perhaps – are using the community to further you own goals. You damn well have an obligation to be very clear about what you have in terms of proof. I’m sure I’m not the only one who refuses to be manipulated and used – by neither paysites nor pirates – and I refuse to back up your case if you won’t even tell me what you’re basing it on. If you won’t come clean with the community you don’t deserve the backing of the community, and without the community you can go and file your own little complaint yourself and see how far you’ll get with that.

Then don't.
Wether it's TSR or not, those 600+ will still want to know what happened. Their real information was shared. Likely by TSR. TSR got their hands on it in the end. If TSR is not responsible, it's still very serious.

Note that I’m not asking for specific emails and similar evidence to be laid out here, but I want to know from reliable sources that such things exist.

Calalilly has been proven to be unreliable or untruthful?
Pescado has been proven to be unreliable or untruthful?

Feel free to ask, I'm curious as well. But you won't be only helping yourself decide something. You're most probably a big help to some other interrested party too.

[Moune]

I'm not asking TSR to prove they are innocent or didn't do the deed.

Prove to me that TSR (Thomas) or the TWAT are not the ones responsible for the hackings.

-----

No No No, judging by your response I think there is a number of things you don’t understand. Let me try to make things clear.

1) Nobody would have filed any complaints if they hadn’t had half the community and all the anger of half the community behind them. Without all those people getting angry this case would not have existed at all.

2) Coconut (& co) knew full well what would happen when she released the information about the distribution of the list. She was counting on the community getting angry and would – or at least should – have been fully aware that some people would demand and/or take action.

3) The whole community and not just the people on the list will want to know what happened. In fact, I think the whole community SHOULD know what happened – even have a right to know what happened, considering how much all of us have been involved in this.

4) The community can do a lot of things. For instance you don’t have to have been on that list to file a complaint. Anybody can do that, and the more people complain the more pressure it will put on the relevant authorities to investigate the case.

5) The relevant authorities, of course, not being the FBI. FBI has no jurisdiction in Sweden and no authority to conduct any investigations whatsoever in Sweden – let alone begin legal proceedings. Only the Swedish police can do that. I posted the addresses and email for them above.

6) Nothing whatsoever will change if TSR finds out that there IS hard evidence supporting the case against them. They can’t erase or doctor proof that is in the hands of Coconut, Pescado, Cala or whoever else. And they won’t know exactly what it is - or at least not until a legal case is opened against them. Then they and their lawyer have the right to see the evidence against them. The police will also likely have to present this evidence to them during the investigation.

7) The only one here helping “some other interested party” is you – by trying to clamp down a very relevant and pertinent discussion. For anyone out there doubting that this is true you sure make a good argument for not believing Coconut’s claims. I can’t help thinking about Bush and Rumsfeld: “Yes, we have evidence that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, but it’s confidential, so don’t ask us to show you”. Yeah, right!

Cala, thanks. to you, too. Hope your thesis is coming along well.

There are still a couple of pieces missing, though:

Do we know that Bluesoup used her TSR password for the petition or is this just something we think probable?

How do we know the petition was hacked? Do we only have Bluesoup’s word for this or is there anything to back that up?

Are we sure that the information could only have been obtained from the hacking?

[Pescado]

Well this one in particular stands out in my memory:
http://tsr.mustbedestroyed.org/?p=824
Wes_H never had any intention of joining TSR, and I seriously doubt anyone involved would be under the impression that it was likely to change. He was especially unlikely to work on Merlin, given that (a) it's a package installer, and Wes has always been about the meshes and the animations, and (b) it's in Java, whereas Wes is firmly a C/C++ developer. The only thing even loosely related to this was that Wes relaxed the TOU on his Milkshape plugin, which is hardly surprising given that the TOU was pretty much ignored by everyone anyway.

That is clearly an interpretive statement. The events described occurred, just not quite as interpreted.

[Witchboy]

I'm not asking TSR to prove they are innocent or didn't do the deed.

Prove to me that TSR (Thomas) or the TWAT are not the ones responsible for the hackings.

The second quote above was not directed at anyone from TSR. That was posted in response to Echo. As far as i know Echo is not a part of TSR in anyway shape or form. I was asking Echo & Echo alone to prove to me that TSR was not the responsible party.

Also it looks like the FBI can be contacted about foreign cyber crime as apparent from this article. Heres a quote.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/fbi-spyware-pro/

The CIPAV also played a previously-unreported role in an investigation of a prolific computer hacker who made headlines after penetrating thousands of computers at Cisco, various U.S. national laboratories, and NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in 2005. The FBI agent leading the case sought approval to plant a CIPAV through an undercover operative posing as a Defense Department contractor "with a computer network connected to JPL’s computer network," according to one document. The FBI linked the intrusions to known 16-year-old hacker in Sweden.

[WedgewoodBlue]

*snip*
[/quote]

The list can be found here:
http://tsr.mustbedestroyed.org/?p=858#more-858
Complete with comments on what details are available, that is the list we compared to in our news post.
[/quote]

Please tell us you are not now attempting to claim that this is where you saw the list......on Coconut's blog. I know from PERSONAL experience how you ignore valid complaints, and manipulate your customers. Or are you now admitting to having the list in your possession, and then sharing it, before your despicable actions were revealed?
IF you really do have nothing to hide, then for once have the decency to actually answer a direct questions as it is posed to you.
Oh duh.....I forgot who I was addressing this to.

[No No No]

No No No, judging by your response I think there is a number of things you don’t understand. Let me try to make things clear.

1) Nobody would have filed any complaints if they hadn’t had half the community and all the anger of half the community behind them. Without all those people getting angry this case would not have existed at all.

I doubt that. Having your full name and usersnames, emails, spread on the web is not serious enough to do something about without being cheered on by others?

2) Coconut (& co) knew full well what would happen when she released the information about the distribution of the list. She was counting on the community getting angry and would – or at least should – have been fully aware that some people would demand and/or take action.

I think the goal was indeed to fire up the community, but more importantly, to make sure that those who are affected know what's going on. I don't really care about what Coconut wants, I care about finally nailing the one that's been messing with people's data (and their lives).

3) The whole community and not just the people on the list will want to know what happened. In fact, I think the whole community SHOULD know what happened – even have a right to know what happened, considering how much all of us have been involved in this.

Sure they will find out soon - in my opinion though, those affected should organize something with the ones that (claim to) have ultimate proof for this. It won't take longer than a few days at best. After that, hunting season is open! But, if you seriously can't wait for them to organize it and make sure it gets to the appropriate authorities before TSR finds out what they have, then go ahead and spread the information.

4) The community can do a lot of things. For instance you don’t have to have been on that list to file a complaint. Anybody can do that, and the more people complain the more pressure it will put on the relevant authorities to investigate the case.

I agree, but I personally think the ones that are directly affected should go first. I doubt that any complaints done afterwards will suddenly be ignored.

5) The relevant authorities, of course, not being the FBI. FBI has no jurisdiction in Sweden and no authority to conduct any investigations whatsoever in Sweden – let alone begin legal proceedings. Only the Swedish police can do that. I posted the addresses and email for them above.

Untrue. On internet crime, FBI works transnational. American citizens should contact them.

6) Nothing whatsoever will change if TSR finds out that there IS hard evidence supporting the case against them. They can’t erase or doctor proof that is in the hands of Coconut, Pescado, Cala or whoever else. And they won’t know exactly what it is - or at least not until a legal case is opened against them. Then they and their lawyer have the right to see the evidence against them. The police will also likely have to present this evidence to them during the investigation.

If it's done during the investigation, then why hand it (or even just hints on where to look) over now? What good will it do, except for them to have time to change things on their end? To make Coconut's documents look doctored?

7) The only one here helping “some other interested party” is you – by trying to clamp down a very relevant and pertinent discussion. For anyone out there doubting that this is true you sure make a good argument for not believing Coconut’s claims. I can’t help thinking about Bush and Rumsfeld: “Yes, we have evidence that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, but it’s confidential, so don’t ask us to show you”. Yeah, right!

I'm sorry but:
They're not attacking a country and killing thousands of people by organizing a few days, sending it in, and THEN sharing all the info with those who weren't on the list. It's incomparable. The proper authorities can decide what evidence is relevant, and what else they need.


If you think it's good, then do it. You could be right, after all. Opinions and assholes and all that.

[Paden]

If such things are going to be discussed as to who is sending in what, it would be best done in PM. Why put out on a public forum that can be read by any wanker what kind of data you'll be sending in, when the whole idea is to keep the idiots that perpetrated such things from coming up with a decent alibi as to why it couldn't have been them. I know, I know, innocent until proven guilty, and all of that, but honestly, why make it easier to hide and deny stuff for the pricks that did it? If you want to discuss stuff, do it in a private arena that anyone who isn't trusted isn't allowed? Makes more sense.

[Moune]

WARNING: Long post ahead!

The second quote above was not directed at anyone from TSR. That was posted in response to Echo. As far as i know Echo is not a part of TSR in anyway shape or form. I was asking Echo & Echo alone to prove to me that TSR was not the responsible party.

Same thing. You’re asking somebody to prove that something didn’t happen.

I doubt that. Having your full name and usersnames, emails, spread on the web is not serious enough to do something about without being cheered on by others?.

Exactly. Now you understand. [Question mark edited by me].

Besides the list wasn’t actually spread on the web. It was distributed privately and sought passed on. That’s bad enough, for sure, but not exactly the same as being published on the internet where millions of people would have had access to it.

I think the goal was indeed to fire up the community, but more importantly, to make sure that those who are affected know what's going on. I don't really care about what Coconut wants, I care about finally nailing the one that's been messing with people's data (and their lives).

Well, if Coconut (& co) were looking to get the community involved she/they just have to be ready to answer any questions that may arise in the community. Some of us aren’t sheeple, won’t be used like sheeple and won’t be manipulated like sheeple.

And give us all a break, will you. If you look at some of the remarks made here, at GOS and at MATY by those who were on the list you’ll see that a fair number are not concerned about it and don’t give a rat’s ass about it. Others are understandably concerned and angry, but talking about “messing with people’s lives” is stretching it.

Sure they will find out soon - in my opinion though, those affected should organize something with the ones that (claim to) have ultimate proof for this. It won't take longer than a few days at best. After that, hunting season is open! But, if you seriously can't wait for them to organize it and make sure it gets to the appropriate authorities before TSR finds out what they have, then go ahead and spread the information.

Be realistic, will you. Even if complaints and proof were sent this very minute investigators aren’t likely to take more than a cursory look at it within a few days – let alone contact TSR and confront them with it. In the meantime you have half a community that has just been used as sheeple. Riled up to take action that most would otherwise not have taken and then told to shut up and just wait for further notice from those few who are in the know. I find that rather disgusting.

And what is this information I should spread? I don’t have any information. On the contrary I keep asking for even just resumes of information that could cast light on what is actually going on here. Read my posts, will you.

4) The community can do a lot of things. For instance you don’t have to have been on that list to file a complaint. Anybody can do that, and the more people complain the more pressure it will put on the relevant authorities to investigate the case.

I agree, but I personally think the ones that are directly affected should go first. I doubt that any complaints done afterwards will suddenly be ignored. .

That’s plain stupid. Doesn’t matter one bit who goes first.

5) The relevant authorities, of course, not being the FBI. FBI has no jurisdiction in Sweden and no authority to conduct any investigations whatsoever in Sweden – let alone begin legal proceedings. Only the Swedish police can do that. I posted the addresses and email for them above.

Untrue. On internet crime, FBI works transnational. American citizens should contact them.

Are you American? Americans sometimes think their authorities really are the policemen of the world and can do anything they wish. It is entirely possible that the FBI works transnational on internet crime. But they can NOT contact Swedish internet service providers and ask them for information. They can NOT interrogate TSR and confront them with evidence. And they can NOT begin legal proceedings against TSR.

They can ask Swedish police to cooperate with them and that most likely happened in the case WB quoted further up. But, jeez, that guy was clearly in a completely different league from what we’re dealing with here, and requesting and setting up a formal police cooperation takes time and resources.

Also, I doubt very much that Sweden has an extradition agreement with the US because of the US death penalty. Which means that any legal proceedings would have to take place in Sweden. The FBI can’t prosecute in Sweden and they can’t just tell the Swedish authorities to do so either.

All in all this case has to be dealt with by Swedish authorities. Fine to complain to the FBI, but if the Swedish police don’t get involved too, it won’t go anywhere. Therefore complaints should also go to them.

If it's done during the investigation, then why hand it (or even just hints on where to look) over now? What good will it do, except for them to have time to change things on their end? To make Coconut's documents look doctored?

Because it won’t matter one bit. Think! They cannot do anything to change evidence that is in Coconut’s or Pescado’s hands. They can change things on their own end, yes, but then think about this: TSR already knows what evidence could be available. Whatever could be done to erase or manipulate that evidence on their behalf has definitely already been done.

7) The only one here helping “some other interested party” is you – by trying to clamp down a very relevant and pertinent discussion. For anyone out there doubting that this is true you sure make a good argument for not believing Coconut’s claims. I can’t help thinking about Bush and Rumsfeld: “Yes, we have evidence that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, but it’s confidential, so don’t ask us to show you”. Yeah, right!

I'm sorry but:
They're not attacking a country and killing thousands of people by organizing a few days, sending it in, and THEN sharing all the info with those who weren't on the list. It's incomparable. The proper authorities can decide what evidence is relevant, and what else they need.

Is it because you really don’t understand or is it because you don’t want to understand? The Bush/Rumsfeld strategy of ‘we’re not telling’ is a dumb one. It only partially worked then – at least here in Europe a great many people didn’t believe they had any proof – and it won’t work at all next time. Not even for a small case of petition hacking in the Sims community. The more you or anyone else refuse to put forward evidence – or actually just confirm that there is evidence like Cala did a couple of pages back – the more people will begin thinking that this is nothing more than a hoax.

If you think it's good, then do it. You could be right, after all. Opinions and assholes and all that.

Would you just elaborate on that last sentence?


ETA:
PADEN, empty your PM box, please.

[SnarkyShark]

And give us all a break, will you. If you look at some of the remarks made here, at GOS and at MATY by those who were on the list you’ll see that a fair number are not concerned about it and don’t give a rat’s ass about it. Others are understandably concerned and angry,but talking about “messing with people’s lives” is stretching it.

I guess that all depends on what you consider "messing with people's lives" constitutes, moune. If I were, say  WB, and had to spend hours (possibly days?) attempting to reconstruct my online accounts then, yes, I'd say that my life had been "messed with".  ROYALLY. I've also talked to a couple of those people from the list and they do feel violated (or "messed with"). 

[No No No]

Exactly. Now you understand. [Question mark edited by me].[/qoute]

Besides the list wasn’t actually spread on the web. It was distributed privately and sought passed on. That’s bad enough, for sure, but not exactly the same as being published on the internet where millions of people would have had access to it.

I disagree. Having your information handed to total strangers, having no idea what they will do with, how it will be used, or if it will be sold, or if someone crazy enough will use it to actually find someone, is a serious enough problem to be prompted to deal with without anyone else telling you to.

Well, if Coconut (& co) were looking to get the community involved she/they just have to be ready to answer any questions that may arise in the community. Some of us aren’t sheeple, won’t be used like sheeple and won’t be manipulated like sheeple.

Your opinion.

And give us all a break, will you. If you look at some of the remarks made here, at GOS and at MATY by those who were on the list you’ll see that a fair number are not concerned about it and don’t give a rat’s ass about it. Others are understandably concerned and angry, but talking about “messing with people’s lives” is stretching it.

Again, your opinion. Sharing these kinds of things can lead to identity theft, credit scores being affected, drugs and other crap being sent overseas in your name, crap being sent to your home, people getting your credit card info and buying things in your name, people harrassing you on the phone or at your home adress. These people are at risk of that.

Also, most of the people who said 'meh' did not have their full name shared.

Be realistic, will you. Even if complaints and proof were sent this very minute investigators aren’t likely to take more than a cursory look at it within a few days – let alone contact TSR and confront them with it. In the meantime you have half a community that has just been used as sheeple. Riled up to take action that most would otherwise not have taken and then told to shut up and just wait for further notice from those few who are in the know. I find that rather disgusting.

No-one is being used as anything. The ones that are asked to take action on this are the 600+ affected. And I wonder what you think half the community must say to the authorities? "So and so have been hacked, this and this has been shared, please look into it." If they have not been personally affected, and the ones who actually are, are available, then telling the entire community to act on this is counterproductive. Can you provide a link to where Coconut tells anyone outside the 600+ people to contact the authorities?

And what is this information I should spread? I don’t have any information. On the contrary I keep asking for even just resumes of information that could cast light on what is actually going on here. Read my posts, will you.

Maybe you should read my posts, so I don't have to repeat the same thing over and over again. By asking for info to be posted in public, you'll also be handing it over to TSR.

That’s plain stupid. Doesn’t matter one bit who goes first.

It does if you want to authorities to actually look at the ones that were affected, without it being flooded with hundreds of other "this list was spread by so and so, please do something about it!" But I doubt you understand this if I've had to repeat other things 2 times already.

5) The relevant authorities, of course, not being the FBI. FBI has no jurisdiction in Sweden and no authority to conduct any investigations whatsoever in Sweden – let alone begin legal proceedings. Only the Swedish police can do that. I posted the addresses and email for them above.

It's good that you did that. Tell me though, what will the Swedish police listen to first? Emails from foreighners, or an email from an offical organization like the FBI?

Are you American? Americans sometimes think their authorities really are the policemen of the world and can do anything they wish.

What you think about 'some Americans' is none of my business.

It is entirely possible that the FBI works transnational on internet crime. But they can NOT contact Swedish internet service providers and ask them for information. They can NOT interrogate TSR and confront them with evidence. And they can NOT begin legal proceedings against TSR.

FBI can not begin legal proceedings against anything or anyone. They inform higher authorities in the US who may or may not decide to do begin legal procedures.
They are however a good steppingstone to be heard by Swedish authorities as I said earlier.

Fine to complain to the FBI, but if the Swedish police don’t get involved too, it won’t go anywhere. Therefore complaints should also go to them.

That I can agree with.

Because it won’t matter one bit. Think! They cannot do anything to change evidence that is in Coconut’s or Pescado’s hands. They can change things on their own end, yes, but then think about this: TSR already knows what evidence could be available. Whatever could be done to erase or manipulate that evidence on their behalf has definitely already been done.

Doesn't matter. It will still change into a 'he said, she said' if they get the right pointers and change what's needed. As the burden of evidence lies with the ones making complaints, then they're basically screwed. This is probably already the case, but why make it worse?

Is it because you really don’t understand or is it because you don’t want to understand? The Bush/Rumsfeld strategy of ‘we’re not telling’ is a dumb one. It only partially worked then – at least here in Europe a great many people didn’t believe they had any proof – and it won’t work at all next time. Not even for a small case of petition hacking in the Sims community. The more you or anyone else refuse to put forward evidence – or actually just confirm that there is evidence like Cala did a couple of pages back – the more people will begin thinking that this is nothing more than a hoax.

In my opinion, evidence should go to the proper authorities first. Those who are on the list will be complaining that someone, possibly TSR has shared their personal information, and will refer back to Coconut or who-ever else has the evidence. Coconut and who-ever has it, share with the same authorities whatever they have.
Handing over evidence to everyone now, is in my opinion, more damaging than not doing it.

I'm not sure why you connect me to coconut simply because I have a differeny opinion about this. I don't know Coconut.

Would you just elaborate on that last sentence?

You don't know the saying? 'Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one'?
I was not calling you an asshole if that's what you're worried about.

From how you answer me it seems you're getting frustrated with me. Me having this opinion does not mean that anyone will listen to it. Only one person here has agreed with one thing I said. So don't treat it as something to get frustrated over. Everyone will simply do what they wish as usual.

This is the last thing I'll say on this matter, as my opinion will not change, so nothing I write after this will be any different.

I wish you guys good luck on this.

[minionsRmine]

Ok, Moune, so are you suggesting that everyone who's been wronged by TSR share all of their legal information with others so that the "sheep" find out what's going on? To the point of tainting evidence and allowing said parties to come up with a strategy for proving the prosecutors wrong?

I'm thinking what "No No No" is suggesting is that people not go into such details about what they plan to do about what has happened. Coconut's information, letting people know that this has happened, is fine. Actually, it's good that Coconut did that because unless s/he personally contacted every single person via her website or by email that was on that list (which would've taken Coconut a looong time, no doubt), no one would've known about the acquisition of that list by an unseemly party.

An example... I think there's a reason why police tape off areas that have been offended, to keep from tainting evidence. There's a reason why lawyers (and their clients) don't discuss legal proceedings. I think, in essence, this is a similar situation.

I understand that discussing this stuff gets people riled up to want to do something, and the discussion gets the news out there about shady dealings. However, I think there's a stopping point on how much information you give. WHERE that ending point is is where the debate lies, obviously. I just don't want THIS to end up like another case that has been swept under the rug. It's happened one too many times, and I certainly do not want to see that happen again.

I personally did not sign that petition (BlueSoup is not someone I trust, believe, or like for that matter), but it doesn't matter. It ticks me off that someone got hold of others' information and decided to share it with people who had no business seeing any of it. I hope that the majority of those folks on that list take it seriously enough to talk to a lawyer. And if they do talk to a lawyer, I hope to goodness they don't tell us about it here at PMBD publicly for all the world to read.

The "sheep" can wait. I hope people take care of this situation once and for all. Once the evidence is all there, once someone is brought to justice, then the sheep can sit back and let their jaws hit the floor. It's better to read the WHOLE story than to read only part that might not even come to fruition anyway.

[Witchboy]

The second quote above was not directed at anyone from TSR. That was posted in response to Echo. As far as i know Echo is not a part of TSR in anyway shape or form. I was asking Echo & Echo alone to prove to me that TSR was not the responsible party.

Same thing. You’re asking somebody to prove that something didn’t happen.

No it's not the same thing. It was in a direct response to Echo's statement. It has nothing to do with me calling out TSR to come prove their innocence because not once have i posted any such request.

Quote from you

Note that I’m not asking for specific emails and similar evidence to be laid out here, but I want to know from reliable sources that such things exist.

Yes you are....

Pes, I’m going to repeat this: How much to you know about the hacking of the petition and how much of this did you see with your own eyes and how much did Bluesoup or others tell you?

You keep asking for Pes & even Coconut to come here & post about what evidence they have seen or know about. The evidence is all around you. It's here in this forum, it's on Coconuts blog, it's posted & talked about on Sims Cave & Black Pearl Sims just to name a few. You know dam well as i do that these things do exist. Why do you keep playing both sides of the fence? Why do you keep insisting on digging for more info?

Do you not find Cala, Coconut, Pes & all the other community members that have come forward with evidence as reliable sources? Where do you think Cala gets her info? Coconut. Why do you keep trying to discredit most of the evidence at hand, all the while insisting on seeing more of it?

More digging for info from you & yes you are digging.

Do we know that Bluesoup used her TSR password for the petition or is this just something we think probable?

No she didn't. It was hacked.

How do we know the petition was hacked? Do we only have Bluesoup’s word for this or is there anything to back that up?

When the petition was hacked it was offline for a bit if i remember correctly & the petition site had to restore it. If anyone remembers this or i have it wrong please feel free to add to this or correct me in my thinking.

Are we sure that the information could only have been obtained from the hacking?

Once again the info was only obtained from the petition being hacked. Nuff said!

[Paden]

Sorry bout that, I had been offline for three weeks due to dead net connection. Couple of spaces cleared.

[Echo]

The second quote above was not directed at anyone from TSR. That was posted in response to Echo. As far as i know Echo is not a part of TSR in anyway shape or form. I was asking Echo & Echo alone to prove to me that TSR was not the responsible party.

Same thing. You’re asking somebody to prove that something didn’t happen.

No it's not the same thing. It was in a direct response to Echo's statement. It has nothing to do with me calling out TSR to come prove their innocence because not once have i posted any such request.

Then that makes even less sense... Aside from the fact that you're still asking someone to prove innocence rather than prove guilt (which, as several people have already pointed out, is not the way things work), why on Earth would someone unrelated to TSR or to Coconut need (or have the ability) to prove anything that either party did? I mean, can you prove that TSR did it? You and you alone? Without reference to something someone else said, or something they did in the past?

[johan]

Please tell us you are not now attempting to claim that this is where you saw the list......on Coconut's blog. I know from PERSONAL experience how you ignore valid complaints, and manipulate your customers. Or are you now admitting to having the list in your possession, and then sharing it, before your despicable actions were revealed?
IF you really do have nothing to hide, then for once have the decency to actually answer a direct questions as it is posed to you.
Oh duh.....I forgot who I was addressing this to.

This made absolutely no sense to me but since you asked for an answer i will answer.

We read the list on Coconut's blog. We don't have the list and we have never had it.

Was that an answer to your question? If not you will have to clarify it.