TSR: In Ur Accounts, Deletin Ur Stuffs!

[neriana]

Delphy, the problem with Occam's Razor is that what one person thinks is the simplest explanation, another person often thinks does not fit the evidence. I think the simplest explanation that fits the evidence is that the Maxoids are in the pay of TSR. Other people think EA is more deeply involved as well. What seems "simplest" is often not a compelling explanation, because it does not flow from the evidence at hand.

[scrappysim]

That Simmaster thing was posted a little while ago. (march 20).  We were talking about it once before.  I believe that what is really going on has to do with the SimMaster fiasco a while back when so many of the Sim Masters left because of what was happening over there.  I think EA/Maxis just decided not to replace them and I think I remember that there was any one or two left after that anyway. If they get New Sim Masters then they will have to explain to them how to moderate the boards and what rules to enforce (you know, the written rules and the Other Rules!) and instead they seem to just be letting the board go and allowing the Maxiods to step in occassionaly and make arbitrary statements and delete threads all willy-nilly and dole out bans but not really mod.

[Delphy]

Delphy, the problem with Occam's Razor is that what one person thinks is the simplest explanation, another person often thinks does not fit the evidence. I think the simplest explanation that fits the evidence is that the Maxoids are in the pay of TSR. Other people think EA is more deeply involved as well. What seems "simplest" is often not a compelling explanation, because it does not flow from the evidence at hand.

I don't really think thats the *simplest* solution, though.  As scrappysim points out, a lot of the SimMasters left, so obviously there was a power vacuum, and it was clear to EA or the community manager of Maxis that something had to be done. 

Even if we *do* consider the idea that the Maxoids where in the pay of TSR, isn't EA a public company? Do they not have accounts?  Why would an *employee* of one of the largest software companies in the world want to get a cut from what is, essentially, a fly in the ointment?  There is no logical rhyme nor reason why "the maxoids are in the pay of TSR" - not from a financial standpoint.  Even if you consider the possibility that TSR is somehow paying the Maxoids under the table, as a public company they would be obliged to investigate any such allegations and accusations, so why has nothing come out?

Whats actually *more* likely is the other way round - TSR are linked to EA via some kind of license deal or a advertising deal or something like that. 

If we consider the "evidence", it's more akin to them simply wanting to control the forums (aka the BBS) more in the run up to the Sims 3, and shutting down any dissedent talk, rather than them being specifically in the pay of TSR.  If they *where* in the pay of TSR, then test it - put up a post saying how great say, Parsiminous is, or another huge free site - and see what happens.  No bashing, no name calling, no "Parsim are better than TSR" or whatever - just a fan thread about the site.  If your theory is correct, then this would be seen as competition and would be shut down.  Indeed, the thread BlueSoup is still up... and that has a lot of anti-TSR statements in it, but the *actual subject itself* is more general for the game. If the maxoids *where* in the pay of TSR, wouldn't BlueSoups thread be shut down too?  It seems to not make any sense with your scenario.

No, I think it's more likely that people equate any *anti*-TSR deletions to "the maxoids are being paid by TSR", but I think the same thing would apply to bad mouthing *any* site there.  In this case it's probably more the "evidence" that is flawed - or, rather, the assumptions made *from* the evidence, rather than the evidence itself.  After all, as I said, why would the largest gaming company in the world need to be paid by a *fansite*? 

But if you *really* want to test things - go ahead and do it, instead of assuming that it's true. 

[CatOfWar]

Even if you consider the possibility that TSR is somehow paying the Maxoids under the table, as a public company they would be obliged to investigate any such allegations and accusations, so why has nothing come out?

Let's say TSR paid people under the table, and let's say EA were opposed to this, and investigated.  I don't think they would publicise this, it would make them look bad.  I think they would try to cover it up as much as they could instead.  If however, EA upper management is as uninvolved and as ignorant as some think, they could just be unaware.  Or they could be aware but not care so long as it doesn't hurt their business.  I know I'm only speculating.  Just saying I think TSR bribing EA employees is plausible.  However, your idea of a legal business arrangement between EA and TSR is also quite plausible.  However, the April 1st TSR "myths and lies" thingie denies any such legal arrangement.  Doesn't mean they don't have one, just means they won't admit it if they do.

edit: Regardless, I think in any scenario we come up with, TSR is still a bunch of greedy lying liars who lie.

[Delphy]

Even if you consider the possibility that TSR is somehow paying the Maxoids under the table, as a public company they would be obliged to investigate any such allegations and accusations, so why has nothing come out?

Let's say TSR paid people under the table, and let's say EA were opposed to this, and investigated.  I don't think they would publicise this, it would make them look bad.  I think they would try to cover it up as much as they could instead.  If however, EA upper management is as uninvolved and as ignorant as some think, they could just be unaware.  Or they could be aware but not care so long as it doesn't hurt their business.  I know I'm only speculating.  Just saying I think TSR bribing EA employees is plausible.  However, your idea of a legal business arrangement between EA and TSR is also quite plausible.  However, the April 1st TSR "myths and lies" thingie denies any such legal arrangement.  Doesn't mean they don't have one, just means they won't admit it if they do.

I think it's actually more likely there is *no* such business or legal arrangement, but instead it's a more personal one.  After all, TSR have had years to talk to the Maxoids, get to know them, and so on - just as we had that opportunity on MTS2 when MaxoidTom was around.  So it's probably much *more* likely that the Anti-anti-TSR stance comes more from a personal trust element (as in trust between the Maxoid and the TSR staff) rather than anything business like.  I think *this* explanation is way simpler than any one involving money, since we *know* that Maxis/EA has contact with fansites and we *know* they talk to them from time to time, so therefore it only makes sense that they would favour some over others, but this does *not* mean it's anything legal, concrete, or set in any kind of financial terms - it'd be more of a bias rather than anything else.

Let's think about this for a second.  You have these sites - one of which you have been talking to for years and who you have built up a relationship with.  Not a business one, just a personal one.  So you have this community - on the one hand is the "pirate" side - with sharing of EA owned materials (Castaway etc) and other such dubious dealings but, more importantly, with zero contact with the Maxoids.  Then you have the other hand - that of TSR and the paysites - who are way more likely to basically kiss ass, to say nice things about the game, to basically do whatever they can to be invited to events, and to, essentially, create a higher profile for thier own site.  Again, nothing business like, nothing legal, no money under the table. 

I think that some people forget this long standing relationship in thier haste to be all "TSR is evil".  Just becuase *you* think TSR is evil does not mean that the Maxoids (who have had *years* of talking to them, inviting them to events, etc) think they are, and does not mean that the Maxoids are taking cuts under the table.  In fact, I think the entire theory of the Maxoids being paid by TSR is, actually, ludicrous, and it's way more likely that any such goings on by the Maxoids on the BBS are more becuase of this long standing personal relationship than anything else.

It's pure and simple a personal relationship between TSR and the Maxis people, thats been going on for years, and that is *extremely* unlikely to be broken by any such antics as done by the pirate faction up till now.

Oh and I'd like to add that this is just my thoughts and feelings based on my years in the community and as owner of a Sims 2 fansite who *has* been contacted by EA and has dealings with Maxoids.  It's not becuase I am pro-TSR, I'm just simply pointing out that the theory that the Maxoids are being paid by them is mired in implausibility and, in my opinion, *extremely* unlikely.

For you tl;dr people.  To sum up:

- TSR and Maxis have a personal relationship going back years
- TSR always is nice to Maxis
- Maxis is therefore going to be more nice to TSR

- Pirates and Maxis have a personal relationship spanning in nanoseconds
- Pirates always bash TSR and Maxis
- Maxis is therefore going to be less nice to Pirates

That simple enough for you Neriana?

[dstar]

The unfortunate thing is that either way- they have ticked off a bunch of fans- because of their relationship with a company that in the past has shown that they are willing to use  dirty, underhanded tactics and to commit nefarious deeds in order to  make a profit, (we really don't need to re-list these things again I'm sure we've all memorized the list) does not reflect well on EA. Regardless of whether or not someone linked to TSR hacked your system - the use of TSR employees/founders relationships with the Maxoids and EA execs to cover up and leave unpunished the theft of Buggys and possibly other creators (since who knows how many complaints from creators at other sites have been hushed up and left unpunished by TSR when it comes to FA's and SA's- I highly doubt they would give anyone that info either) work is terribly unethical-


This will only end up hurting EA in the end simply because between this issue, SecuRom, the less than stellar quality of their last five or ten games and the flagging economy - EA will be looking for someone to blame  when they lose money hand over fist this year too and it is human nature to blame the people closest to us for our problems (.e.g. your mother doesn't like your spouse and you end up divorced -who do you blame Mom- not your spouse or yourself for being a dickwad). I am quite sure that despite their relationship with TSR - if enough customers evidence anger at TSR and indirectly or directly this effects the sales of Sims 3 at EA - TSR will take the blame for it- EA has more money, more power, and probably better lawyers than TSR - and the unfortunate thing is that  they are sinking their own ship because the angrier people get at TSR and by default at EA because of their relationship with TSR - the more likely it will be that if Sims 3 tanks - relationship or no- TSR will end up the scapegoats in this.

There are plenty of fans who are in no way related to PMBD, SimsCave, MATY or the SimsGraveyard that are ticked about this - not just the people here and many of them are members of TSR banned- not banned- whatever- until their subs run out who blame TSR and  EA by default - I've been keeping an eye on all of the forums and   with a few exceptions from various sites -the attitude is F*ck both of them and not just from the Pirates.

[SoggyFox]

Actually, its either EA or Sims - sims is not a part of maxis anymore, its a seperate entity.

[neriana]

That simple enough for you Neriana?

You misunderstood me thoroughly if you think I was saying that the simplest explanation is the best. I was saying that an explanation that's simple isn't better or worse than an explanation that's complex. In other words, Occam's Razor is useless.

In your explanation, you keep talking about "Maxis". Maxis no longer exists. You are right; EA keeps inviting TSR to "fan" stuff. They keep not inviting other people. Whom EA chooses to invite to their parties is an important piece of evidence. If who is "nice" to them actually factors into EA's business arrangements, they're even more poorly run than I thought. Further, TSR is not "nice" to EA at all; TSR violates EA's EULA every day.

Basically, to believe that EA just likes TSR because they're all warm and fuzzy buddies with them, to the extent of excluding other fansites from this warm and fuzzy buddiness and of censoring the BBS as EA regularly does, requires a huge leap of logic. Multinational corporations aren't run on huggles.

Your proposed experiment would be pretty useless now that it's been made public. However, that experiment has already been done, in a way. MTS2 isn't on the list of EA fansites for its supposed "adult" content. We have proven that TSR has plenty of "adult" content, people have complained about that content on the BBS for years, but TSR is still on that list.

[tahirifan]

Then you have the other hand - that of TSR and the paysites - who are way more likely to basically kiss ass, to say nice things about the game, to basically do whatever they can to be invited to events, and to, essentially, create a higher profile for thier own site.  Again, nothing business like, nothing legal, no money under the table. 

Sad but true, Delphy, asskissing is always the under hand but an effecitive way to get ahead.  I never subscribe to this method but when they fall flat on their faces it is always enjoyable to watch.  Sooner or later, EA will get sick of all the drama especially if it effects their $$$.

[uknortherner]

On a sidenote, SimSecret no. 106 this week:



Random bullshitter or a spy in our midst?

[Delphy]

That simple enough for you Neriana?

You misunderstood me thoroughly if you think I was saying that the simplest explanation is the best. I was saying that an explanation that's simple isn't better or worse than an explanation that's complex. In other words, Occam's Razor is useless.

In your explanation, you keep talking about "Maxis". Maxis no longer exists. You are right; EA keeps inviting TSR to "fan" stuff. They keep not inviting other people. Whom EA chooses to invite to their parties is an important piece of evidence. If who is "nice" to them actually factors into EA's business arrangements, they're even more poorly run than I thought. Further, TSR is not "nice" to EA at all; TSR violates EA's EULA every day.

Basically, to believe that EA just likes TSR because they're all warm and fuzzy buddies with them, to the extent of excluding other fansites from this warm and fuzzy buddiness and of censoring the BBS as EA regularly does, requires a huge leap of logic. Multinational corporations aren't run on huggles.

Your proposed experiment would be pretty useless now that it's been made public. However, that experiment has already been done, in a way. MTS2 isn't on the list of EA fansites for its supposed "adult" content. We have proven that TSR has plenty of "adult" content, people have complained about that content on the BBS for years, but TSR is still on that list.

Actually, "Maxis" does exist in the sense that there are still "Maxoids".  I was referring to a personal relationship between TSR and the Max*oids*, not neccesarily Maxis as a now-defunct entity. 

Multinational corporations aren't run on huggles, no, but we are not talking about multinational corporations as a whole - we are talking about *individual* people with *individual* biases for or against particular sites, ethics, and colours of the rainbow.  So, it's really *not* a huge leap to go from "TSR and the Maxoids have a long standing relationship" to "Maxoids will favour TSR on thier own site".  It's *certainly* a hell of a lot better an explanation that the "Maxoids are being paid by TSR" which makes about as much sense as a chocolate fireplace.

TSR *is* nice - to the Maxoids.  Doesn't matter what TSR do in terms of "violating" the EULA or with some few adult bits of contact - if the *primary* contact that the Maxoids have with TSR *is* nice, then of course that is going to foster a good relationship.  Come on, it doesn't take a leap of faith to see that people are, well, people, and have feelings and thoughts too, and, in reality, they act on those a hell of a lot more than logic.  Think about it: If you cultivate a nice relationship with somebody it's far easier to overlook thier faults than if you pick them apart, bash them left right and center and generally *be* an ass rather than trying to kiss it.  And since the Max*oids* have a huge say in who gets invited to events (something they have direct control over), as well as how things play out on thier own site (again, direct control), then of *course* it's going to be biased.  But this is nothing to do with the "EA multinational" - it's purely personal, and so long as it can be justified and doesn't backfire, who in the corporate world is really going to care?

When things really come down to it, as *people*, who do you think the Maxoids are going to side with?  The people that constantly bash them, and thier parent company, that deride every decision they ever make, call them names, and generally act like douchebags on thier site... or the people that you have been talking to and have built up a relationship with over *8* years?  Yes, it sucks, no it's not fair, but it *is* a wholly personal thing, and the only way to stop it from happening is to get somebody impartial dealing with the community instead.  To be honest, you pirates are labouring against that 8 years of communications and dialogue, and petty name calling and spamming and so on really will achieve nothing.

With regards to the fansite list: TSR is most likely on the list becuase they *care* about being on the list and becuase of this long standing relationship.  I, on the other hand, do *not* care if I am on the list of fansites.  If I did I'd probably be on them a lot more to put me back, but quite frankly, I don't want to put the time and effort into doing that just to attract a bunch of 12s to my site.

Oh and come on - you know better than I do that TSR are *not* the sole invitee to the events that the Maxoids throw! So the part of your argument that "EA only ever invite TSR" is basically useless and backed up by evidence thats actually provable - ie *all* of the events that have gone down in the past 4 years.

[Tabby]

On a sidenote, SimSecret no. 106 this week:

*snippers*

Random bullshitter or a spy in our midst?

Shit stirrer. Methinks they are just trying to shift attention from matters at hand. If it's true, it will come out, if not,   

[raebchen]

On a sidenote, SimSecret no. 106 this week:

*snippers*

Random bullshitter or a spy in our midst?

Shit stirrer. Methinks they are just trying to shift attention from matters at hand. If it's true, it will come out, if not,   

I agree. My first thought was that someone is trying to start a witch hunt while laughing in their super sekrit forum.

[dstar]

If its true they won't be an FA for long - if TSR gets ahold of the Secret.

[neriana]

Oh and come on - you know better than I do that TSR are *not* the sole invitee to the events that the Maxoids throw! So the part of your argument that "EA only ever invite TSR" is basically useless and backed up by evidence thats actually provable - ie *all* of the events that have gone down in the past 4 years.

Did I say EA only ever invites TSR? I certainly don't recall typing it.

I find the idea that employees of a company go against that company's interests because people outside the company are NICE to them absolutely and utterly ludicrous. But sure, if you think the "Maxoids" are that silly and unprofessional. I don't think quite that poorly of them.