TSR charging for bucketfill

[Act]

No, I don't need to take a deep breath, I wasn't even mad when I posted that but if you continue to act like a patronizing prat, I will rip you a new asshole so wide that you'll never even need to sit to do your business.

Seriously... is that called for at all? I'm not trying to be patronizing; I was trying to clarify what I meant. You just seem to be out for a battle.

It wasn't even aimed at you in particular, so you can pull your horns in. I'd a hell of a lot rather see stuff from people on a free site who at least try than the fuckers at TSR that cut and paste shit, that's for damn sure. And, for your further information, I have always been, and always will be, visceral in my reactions and if you can't handle it, grow a thicker hide and put on your big kid pants, because I'm not changing.

You quoted me, so I assumed it was aimed at me. And I'm not saying that at all... that last line really screams that you're fishing for a reaction, but I'm not interested in a fight-- just having an opinion which, for clarification, was agreement with a poster that too much mindless praise is an odd thing at MST. But the person I was agreeing with wasn't vilified, which is a little odd. Also, I'm not sure what I said that indicates, "I can't handle it..." it does come off as bully-ish, but that's your choice. I'm not really going to be losing sleep or anything...

You want to criticize free sites you go to that site specifically and do it. No matter what your opinion of MTS or any other free site is Act - this is not the place to critique them. The sole purpose of this site is to stand up against pay sites and make it clear that what they are doing is wrong and not acceptable. It is acceptable to critique pay sites and pay sites only here. If you don't like something from a free site complain on that site.

I'm not criticizing MTS (where is this coming from? my wording, I guess). Again, lovely place, best out there, etc. I just found it odd that TS community was so... mindless praise-y. My point was that I'd expect it from a pay site (who need the mindless praise to justify themselves), but it was odd on a site like MST.

You really lose the right to complain about something if you get it for free. Yes the creator/manufacturer may take your criticism into account, but it really doesn't matter cause you don't pay. Someone hands you a free ice cream cone and you eat it, you really can't come back later claiming you don't like chocolate without looking like an asshole after all. Free sites like MTS don't look at content as something exclusive that only sooper speshul people can do ,since they view content as something everyone can create there will be a certain amount of content that anyone can create such as Sims or lots on a given day. If you don't like it - use the filter key, and don't download it. This is a anti-paysite forum, not an anti freesite forum.

It's not that I disagree, but I guess that as a creator I would want to improve myself and crit is a part of that. There's a difference between "OMG DIS SUXORS" and advice on how to improve. Why would one not want their creations to be the best they can be? I dunno, I guess it's odd to me, coming from a writing background, to see that this community is so abject to concrit. No one is being anti-anything... I have no idea how you guys are reading that in what I'm saying.

I'm not interested in a fight, so if anyone feels like taking it up further feel free to PM me, but I will say that I'm a little taken aback at how attacked I was for an opinion of the community that doesn't really relate to the pay-free debate in any strong way. I have to wonder if my post-count was higher if I would have been treated a little nicer. How is flaming someone here for wondering out loud different than flaming someone at TSR for wondering out loud.

This is kind of an odd anomaly in internet sub-cultures I think... this idea that because no money is being made by the artist there is no right to offer opinions. I guess that would explain a lot though... huh. I've been lurking here for a while because there's definitely some unwritten rules you have to learn, but I've gotta say, I've read hundreds of pages of posts and have never seen this kind of outright hostility... especially from Paden, who I'd started to really like based on her posts.

And to think, all I said boiled down to was, "Why is there such a culture of praise in free TS Comms?"

[Paden]

No, even if one of the old timers had said something like that, they'd have had their ass put on the griddle, put onto a plate and covered with syrup and butter and handed to them for it, because it would have proven that they haven't learned a damn thing, not to mention the lack of reading the goddamn FAQ. READ MOAR FAQ!

[dstar]

  It is not about whether or not this is t a valid question,  or debate, however; it has simply being pointed out to you that PMBD is NOT the place to stage this debate. It is a topic perhaps better addressed in the creators forums at MTS or other freesites such as GOS. The free community is the target of enough shit from paysites that this is simply not an issue that is appropriate for PMBD.

   I also think that if you actually looked in the creators feedback forums on MTS and other freesites like BPS and GOS you would find that there is plenty of constructive criticism going on. As a free creator I receive plenty of constructive criticism, and in fact have never had a single thing accepted at MTS. This is also true for many other talented creators who are members of PMBD. You might not see the concrit in the comments section of someone's content upload but they have already been through a series of feedback and concrit from other creators. Concrit is not frowned on in the free community like it is in the pay community where it is simply deleted you may just not be looking in the correct places re: creators forums and feedback communities such as BorkedBacked Womrats on Livejournal.

  This is also not the place to stage an argument over what free site owners do with their advertising money. As long as they are not making one dime off of Sims creation tools in which the programmers explicitly state fileshare friendly or no pay (which pretty much excludes all paysite content which is generally not file share friendly and obviously is pay or could be so at any moment) or one dime off of content created with EA's tools e.g. CAST, Bodyshop, Homecrafter, Sims 2 and 3 Packs (ala TSR and DOT"S pay RGB value orange) than it is none of our business whether or not a  freesite owner that chooses to fund a site with advertising uses the excess funding from their advertising to buy diapers for their kids or make house payments. We don't put the money in their pockets and get our content for free- therefore it is none of our business.

   My suggestion would be to address this issue in the Debate forum at MTS, or the Rant and Rage forum at BPS which are more appropriate forums for this topic of conversation. On this site any criticism of free sims sites is likely to be seen by paysite opponents of the free community like certain members of TSR and used to validate their arguments. You have been told to take this point of view and put it up for debate in a more appropriate forum for the subject matter, and I would suggest that you do so or you will continue to be poked with large sporks by the members of this community.

[missangelica]

*wonders when the phorum became a place to whine about MtS as she remembers someone else doing it recently here too*

Seriously, Act, if you have a problem with the way they do things over at MtS, then go bitch at them on *their* site.  I know Pescado is on the back end of a lot of sites, but MtS isn't one of them.

[mustluvcatz]

Who the hell are you Act? I don't get what you're trying to do here, really. First you intimate that MTS doesn't really check the stuff that get's uploaded, then you say that the content at MTS is consistently good.

Ah, I know. They turned you down, didn't they? It happens. They're actually pretty strict- and that's from someone who has stuff available there. So, grow up. You're in the wrong place to whine/cry/battle/bitch/whatever about MTS or any other free site.

[millahnna]

I don't know, I think there is merit to the idea that on the whole, the Sims community takes and gives critiques... oddly, when compared to other game communities.  I can think of a lot of specific creators who are great at it and have seen some wonderfully polite critiques. 

But we have such an odd culture compared to other gamers, that it's really no surprise to me that things can get a little twisted.  I mean we've talked here before about how odd it is that downloaders will make demands of free modders, and it only stands to reason that some of them, though by no means all or even most, will start to get sensitive to any kind of criticism, no matter how well intentioned.  AS usual, I think it all goes back to how many people play this game that are a part of no other gaming community (perhaps casual games like at kongregate and armor). 

We truly are unique in the land of gamers, as a group.

And I thought, though I may be wrong, that Act was specifically referring to Celebrity Sims when saying that MTS may not vet uploads as well as they could (hey there's always room for improvement).  If I'm wrong on that, then yeah, what mustluvcatz said.  But if I'm not wrong, well that's something that not only could I see being a valid opinion but something that we've talked about here in the past as well (on the rare occasion someone has posted a good celeb sim in the freesite finds thread specifically).

[missangelica]

And I thought, though I may be wrong, that Act was specifically referring to Celebrity Sims when saying that MTS may not vet uploads as well as they could (hey there's always room for improvement).  If I'm wrong on that, then yeah, what mustluvcatz said.  But if I'm not wrong, well that's something that not only could I see being a valid opinion but something that we've talked about here in the past as well (on the rare occasion someone has posted a good celeb sim in the freesite finds thread specifically).

Years ago, I was told personally that the reason why the approval system seems so erratic is because they allow lower quality work from new creators and put those creators in a probation period in which they are expected to improve.  Eventually they will be held to the same standards as the older creators.

Although MtS is a large site, it's still a privately owned site.  It's up to the discretion and taste of the mods on what gets approved.  I know that can be frustrating, but it is how it is.

[neriana]

Well, that's something I never expected to happen because of what I said. Not exactly the kind of thing I'd hoped to inspire . I had to look up that post, because it was on fucking August 18th.

Act, seriously what the fuck. And who are you, besides a shit-stirrer? (This post brought to you by the letter "f". I'm not done yet, either.) You took what I said completely out of context and used it to, out of the blue, bash MTS. I am so fucking sick of people whining about MTS's submission system. Put up your pictures somewhere else and use 4shared or something, stop bitching and moaning because the cool kids wouldn't play with you.

I was NOT talking about a "culture of niceness" around mods people make for the game. Constructive criticism is good, whatever, but I also don't see the need to tear apart a free creator's stuff unless it is morally repugnant or it fucks up the game somehow. It's free, it's a hobby, you don't like it just move on. I was very explicitly talking about how people want to gather around the campfire and sing Kumbaya with a bunch of fucking con artists. Perhaps I was not clear enough that I was pissed off at the entire community, not at MTS in particular. In fact, MTS is not nearly as bad as most sites I used to visit in that respect. What the fuck does that have to do with someone's Paris Hilton Sim or whatever?

[millahnna]

That makes sense, missangelica, thanks for the information.  Celeb sims have never been my thing to begin with (downloading sims at all for that matter) so it's not something I would have tried to find. 

[Andais]

Act's posts make me think that he/she has never actually read any comments on the MTS downloads.  I see loads of helpful criticism, suggestions, ways to fix, as well as praise all the time.  When Neriana was talking about being tired of the overt niceness, whe was talking about MTS not allowing people to strike back at Chaz for being an asshole and bashing Stefan's lovely sim.  At least, that's how I recall things. 

[Dr House]

I don't get it 'cause it's a fake problem, like Andais I read a lot of critics at MTS. Compare the comments there with the Gos ones and you'll see a lot of difference: Gos likes praising a lot and will only notify a serious problem with the upload when there is one. Other forums I won't name love sugar coating and blinking 'thank you' and pink fluffy sigs, I personally cannot stand that but whatever, to everyone it's taste. Who am I to judge? Plus, who cares? Grab the item and flee, make your own criticism with your own mind. Plus again, you quickly develop a keen eye and will be able to judge on a mere pic.

Concerning the non-criticism and sugar coated places, you can draw a general rule to it: the bigger the site is, the more criticism there'll be. It's a simple law of demands & offerings: if there's barely anything on a forum/site you won't have anybody criticizing but if you have like hundreds of stuff posted, a lot of bad comments will pop out when an item is 'Meh' or useless. It's a natural process, not limited to the sims world.

Now you're stating your own opinion in the wrong forum, you're at PMDB, not the Interweb Complaints Desk. Go to the corresponding forums/sites for that: we're simply not here for that. We are anti-paysites, point. It's not that we're being stubborn, it's just that you're out of our goal and even acting against it/are being counter-productive 'cause see the awesome logic: being anti-paysites means pro-freesites. We love freesites and want them to thrive and multiply and when one of them have problems we'll do anything to help. We are the Interweb Freesites Help Desk, not the contrary.

[Quinctia]

It is not a fake problem.  If you take one look, for instance, at practically ANY of the sims offered for download at that site, not just the celebrities, you can see that it is an issue because most of them are fucking horrible.  It's a whole bunch of issues as to why that is, including some misled guidelines for the category, but part of it is the lack of criticism, and I do feel bad.  Because people fail to respond to wishes for critique because of the atmosphere on there and creators who actually want to try and improve end up seeing the criticism elsewhere after their stuff has been "approved."  I had a discussion with someone in that position just the other day.  "I put everything on the feedback forum."  "I stopped trying on the feedback forum because no one ever listens."

While I agree that this is not the place to discuss it, gently reminding a person of that fact, especially if they are new works better than throwing a shit-fit like a vulgar three-year-old.  Yes, Paden's reactions were out of line, and so are most of yours.  If you can take such minimal points of criticism and throw a fit about them being bashing, then you are a fucking moron.  My god, can some of you annoy the hell out of me at times.

You don't realize such outright hysterical reactions work against what I thought was our collective purpose, showing that paysites are bad and freesites are good?  Such vehement reactions against the most minimal of statements makes us collectively look like idiots?  Makes us look like we're not bringing anything approaching discretion and reason to our actions?  That it makes us look like reactionaries, making our outrage against some of the paysites' shadier actions, and the abyssmal quality of the items some of them charge for, just the same way we appear to approach everything, irrational and overemotional?  If you water down every mistake to shrieking diatribes, then it makes like we have nothing worth saying here?  Ugh, it's utterly disgusting.

[neriana]

When Neriana was talking about being tired of the overt niceness, whe was talking about MTS not allowing people to strike back at Chaz for being an asshole and bashing Stefan's lovely sim.  At least, that's how I recall things. 

That rings a bell too. I know my post was sparked at freesites not allowing people to rip into paysites the way I would prefer. But hell if I remember exactly what I was thinking, except that it was over freesite/paysite stuff and had nothing to do with freesite creations.

And Quinctia, I get goddamn vehement when someone takes something I said out of context in order to bash a freesite. So sorry if anger offends your sensibilities. But I disagree with your entire post, and don't feel like picking it apart bit by bit. Just, everything about it? Yeah, I believe the complete opposite. I will not be "gentle" to people who try to claim that MTS and TSR are comparable. That was the entire point of the post Act quoted for its own agenda, that all this gentility and civility and other garbage is not the way other communities roll when asked to pay for mods by con artists, and that IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.

[SnarkyShark]

A troll rolls in here,  takes multiple swings at MtS while soft-peddling TSR. That troll is quickly followed by someone jumping on the band wagon who wants to use the opportunity to "vent" his frustration with MtS. Both are quickly shot down. Now, we are being told we should have been more gentle.


Let me make this absolutely clear, Quinctia, I DON'T CARE how disappointed you are with MtS, and I particularly don't want to read your opinions about a freesite's shortcomings in a thread called "TSR charging for bucketfill".

[millahnna]

I see loads of helpful criticism, suggestions, ways to fix, as well as praise all the time.

That's a good point for MTS specifically, and I sort of forgot that when I made my reply.  I know I've seen some really nasty critiques and really nasty responses to polite critiques around the community back in the day when I used to frequent more sims sites (sims 2 only, I never really got online much during Sims 1)  but because of what seem to be solid moderators and whatever other factors, the comment threads at MTS contain a lot of great discussions while modders work out kinks, if they have any to work out.