I smell bullshit

[Quorneater]

Jfade, what I am curious about is, with your own site so clearly stating your anti-pay-content views, just WHY are you a volunteer moderator at a site like TSR that now has a pay-only section?

[Surelyfunke]

Also, we keep getting accused of stealing.  Stealing intellectual property (which is what CC amounts to, same as music or artwork or written materials), at least in this community, generally means taking credit for another artist's work.  Who's doing that here???

THANK YOU.

People seem to get very, very confused over what intellectual property theft is. All work is credited here, and you know which sites/creators the Booty comes from. We do not claim to have made any of the CC ourselves.

Uploading someone else's work to the Exchange and calling it your own is intellectual property theft. I hope people start to realize the important distinction.

With regard to TSR as a large corporation: they may not *technically* qualify for one, and I would be the last person to know how they would . but they certainly *behave* like a large corporation by being THE Sims 2 monopoly. Witness how they are buying up other smaller, independent sites. TSR is definitely a for-profit business, with a profit margin large enough to make them "The Corporation" of the Sims 2 world, IMO. So, legally they may not be one, but it is certainly not the case ideologically.

[Super_Pirate_Dude]

uh.... *clears throat*.... let's see..... Babajayne, uh..... *reads through glasses* you are a well respected member (even though I dislike you) of this community.... *cough* *punches self*

Also, we keep getting accused of stealing. Stealing intellectual property (which is what CC amounts to, same as music or artwork or written materials), at least in this community, generally means taking credit for another artist's work. Who's doing that here???

You'd think that if we cared about those "stealing" comebacks, we would've acted like we cared by now

PS I'm keeping the second part though

[Surelyfunke]

Wht are you talking about, Super Pirate Dude? Babajayne is such a well-respected member of the the Sims 2 Community and she is clearly VERY ELOQUENT, especially when her own misguided opinions are questioned!

I think you should edit your own post to say "Awesome and Amazing Babajayne" and punch yourself in the face for even thinking about questioning her authority!

[Super_Pirate_Dude]

I did like her, until she put me on probation.

But if you want me to. We really need a punch face smiley or something, it's hard to punch myself if I can't show me doing it! lol

If is was not her decision but she was the one who had to tell me, I still respect her. I do respect her, I just don't like her. But whatever.  :wink:

[Quorneater]

Lol they always say "just following rules" but you need to bear in mind none of them were forced to become moderators and support those rules in the first place.  Anyone who is a site moderator of any site (other than one which is connected to their daytime paid job) is doing it because they agree with it.

If I was an unpaid moderator of a site and didn't believe in or enjoy all the bans and probations I was told to give out, I would resign.

[Randomness]

To all the TSR supporters that have recently arrived, I would like to sum up my position on this matter that has (in my view) been needlessly complicated by some: *ahem*

Why should I respect the wishes of paysite creaters/owners that their items are not distributed (or recolored, whathaveyou) when they themselves cannot hold themselves to that very same standard (refusing to honor EA Games' EULA that their items are distributed noncommercially)? If, as some of you state, EULAs are not legally binding, it can at the very least be considered an official request from the company that actually created the game in question from scratch to not profit off of their creation. You want to talk about moral standards? I personally refuse to heed anything unrepentant hypocrites choose to preach about.

And incidentally, on the issue of the EULA, choosing to disregard/disrespect it simply because it doesn't support your profiteering off of someone else's copyrighted creation is rather petty and childish (and not at all a valid strategy).

The people that really irritate me to no end are those that choose to try to use the 'moral superiority' card to act like they're "above" people who disagree with them, which was why Dr. Pixel's attitude was such a let-down (why does being a parent mean that you're automatically right anyways? That's what his attitude appeared to be to me). Posturing and moralizing with no actual logic and facts to back you up does nothing to add to a debate (and yes, file-sharing Sims 2 custom content is a debate, not a ''OMG WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS WRONG!' hysterical reaction).

[Surelyfunke]

Please note that my tongue was firmly in cheek when I was writing my last post!

[...]

I notice that babajayne quietly ignored the fine example I gave her of an enormous site being run completely for free. Now, why is that?

Although I'm at a loss why she thinks that any site has to be just like TSR to be in competition for it.

I don't know why they don't like for people to try to discuss "business" on their forums. It's none of our business how they run their company. Maybe they like to keep that kind of thing private. Lots of companies do.

What a ludicrious statement. It is absolutely the customer's business to know how a company conducts themselves as a part of their consumer rights and protection. What a company does effects many people and their money, and those people have a right to know what their money is going towards. Their need to know stops at what individual employees do with their paychecks, but not before.


Now I'm going to divert a little to something else entirely that's been bothering me, the statement that since Sims 2 content creation is a hobby, creators have no right to charge for it.

I do a lot of things as 'hobbies'. I sew, I paint, I crochet. If someone came up to me and told me I had to give what I made to them for free because I did it for fun, as a hobby, I would kick their asses. Doing something for fun does not negate the value of my work or my time. I do not have some moral obligation to give my pretty thing to others just because I enjoyed making it, or because I'm not a professional at it. It doesn't matter that Sims 2 content is digital; most of my paintings are digital, and you can bet I'm not going to let anyoen use them however they please just because of that. I find it false logic to state in regards to Sims 2 content that no one is allowed to charge for it because it is done as a hobby.

No, I find it wrong to charge for Sims 2 content for other reasons entirely.

- Charging goes against the social norms and mores of the gaming community.
- Charging promotes a spirit of greed, rather than a spirit of sharing, that spreads to the terms of use and attitudes of even free creators.
- This greed limits the creative expansion of the community - enough people are more worried about money and stealing than they are making the community better that it slows down the creativity of the community, forcing other creators to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, because they aren't allowed to base their work on that of others.
- The charging is often done under false pretenses and over and above what is required to meet the pretense.
- The charging is often done for work that is using copyrighted content by someone who isn't the creator.
- There is no way to evaluate the true quality of the product before purchase, and there are no refunds or recourse for the customer who is unsatisfied with the product they bought.
- Charging plainly violates the EULA, which, while it may not be strictly legally tenable (arguable), is still a social contract.

I request that everyone abandon the 'Because it's a hobby, you shouldn't charge for it' position. It's illogical and doesn't hold weight when applied to similar activities. There are plenty of other, better arguments for why charging for CC is ethically wrong, and I'm sure my reasons are only a few of what is out there.

[lordrichter]

People seem to get very, very confused over what intellectual property theft is.

Of that, there is no doubt.

Don't fall into the trap that just because credit is given, everything is OK.

I wish that were the case, because it would make my IRL job a hell of a lot easier.

As for TSR, it has just occurred to me that TSR's big dream in life might be to get purchased by EA.  I am sure that TSR represents themselves as providing only services, the storage, indexing, retrieval, packaging, and downloading of Sims 2 content.  They own none of the content, so they are not selling content, they merely provide access to it and charge for the service.  I suppose that flies better when all of the content is free some of the time rather than what they are doing now, but still, selling that tech to EA might be what they are dreaming about.

[Doursim]

could be.  But from what I have read, EA monitors them "very closely" already, but only to make sure they arn't violating anything... though it has been mused that EA gave TSR special license to sell those things, which would be within their right.

I think that if EA had any interest in TSR they would have bought it already.

[lordrichter]

I think that if EA had any interest in TSR they would have bought it already.

EA is a big company.  From the time they decide to purchase TSR to the time that it actually happens could be a very very long time.

It is possible that TSR has considerable work that they must do to prove that they own the web software they would be selling.  This might require TSR to replace code or hunt down license holders.  EA would not purchase TSR without certification that TSR has the right to sell to EA.  This includes both copyright and patent searches.

But, I doubt that EA is interested in TSR.  That is not to say that TSR is not interested in EA being interested in TSR.

It is cool news to hear that EA might be closely monitoring TSR, but it would be nice to know if that was really happening or just some theory turned 'fact'.  This new no-free-FA policy might have a short lifespan if EA decides it crosses the line.

[Quorneater]

It wouldn't be in EA's interests to purchase TSR, the whole point is to be selling a game that appears popular enough to have engendered large collections of custom content and fansites.  It would be counterproductive to buy them up!   However I can understand why they would have given them special support (not necessarily financial) to get started as they didn't know there would be so many others started.  Most games only seem to have one or two large ones and few small ones.

[tIIsuggas]

They own none of the content, so they are not selling content, they merely provide access to it and charge for the service.  I suppose that flies better when all of the content is free some of the time rather than what they are doing now, but still, selling that tech to EA might be what they are dreaming about.

If that is the case, why don't they remove content at the request of the uploader?  When submitting to TSR, you give them permission to keep your files to do with as they please.

A shoddy service they provide too, looking at the bug report page, over 50% unfixed.  http://www.thesimsresource.com/bugs/list.php Some going back nearly a month.

[Doursim]

But, I doubt that EA is interested in TSR.  That is not to say that TSR is not interested in EA being interested in TSR.

Unrequited love... tragic.