For NeptuneSuzy

[EnfantsTerrible]

just for curiosity

@ suzy

how much do you earn monthly or how much does TSR pay you for 1 Month? is it the money why you are FA or is it just the whole TSR community you really like? Why not being SA then?

[Paden]

Ok, correct me if I get this wrong, but... you were paid for those files by TSR. They then became their property and so you no longer have a say about what happens to them, because once you accepted money for them, it passed out of your hands. But, if you were not paid for them but gave them to TSR, the same thing applies.
     Also, by agreeing that they could host "your" files forever, you gave up any right to say what happens to them supposedly. Alright, going on this same thread, that they are no longer belonging to you because you gave the rights to distribute them to TSR, once they sell the files they have no say about what happens to those files.
     That sale means that the property passes out of theit hands into the hands of the consumer. The consumer is the new owner and they can do what they bloody well wish with said file because it is their property by right of the sale that occured. If they want to delete it, they can. If they want to put it into their game, they can. If they want to give it to their daughter's cousin's boyfriend, they can because it belongs to them through right of the sale!
     Once money is exchanged for goods, the previous owner has no say about how their creation is used. If I went to the store and bought a designer dress made totally of imported silk and took it home and made monogrammed hankies out of it, they couldn't stop me because I own it because I paid for it. If I wanted to make silk nappies for a baby, I could because I paid for it. If I wanted to give it to the pastor's wife for a church pageant, I could because, you guessed it, I paid for it.
     The files hosted in the booty were paid for. The owner then decided to give it away. TSR no longer owns that file. They, and you, no longer have a say in what happens to it because it was paid for. Sure, it cuts down on sales, but so does the custom of handing clothing down to younger siblings. I don't hear Levi Strauss bitching about that custom, do you?
     Once paid for, it is the owner's to do with as they please. And, you ought to feel complimented that so many people are willing to go through so much crap to get your stuff. It's good quality, looks good. But once a file is sold or you agree to give it to a site to host forever, it passes out of your hands and you lose any right to say what happens to it.
     The other creators had changes of philosophy and changed their minds, and they took it to someone who could get them out of an unfair agreement. But, if they had been in the pay status arena, I think they would have figured out that when you sell something, you no longer have a right to say what happens to it once the money is paid.
     This was explained to me by a friend who actually crafts items for sale in the tangible world. He designs it, sells it and doesn't gripe about what's done with it because as he says, "Once it leaves my hands, once the money is in my hand in its place, I lost any jurisdiction over it. It is no longer my property." If you don't own it, you can't dictate terms. The booty was paid for.
     You wouldn't want to pay for a child's birthday present and give it to them, then the company decides later that they don't like the way they play with it and take it back. It's not their right to decide if junior wants to use the wrong end of the plastic hammer to hit the plastic nails into the plastic toybench because they don't own it once the money is paid. And, like I said before and I hope this poor horse isn't getting too badly bruised, when the money is paid it's mine and I'll do what I please with what I bought cause it's my property now. Have a nice day!

[AnneBonny]

As if an FA would answer to that particular question. It would lead to public devestation if it was placed in concrete truth that they were paid and create for the fun of cashing a check.


Random person: Why do you stay at TSR?

FA: The friendly community! I stay because I uber fucking wubbles my FA friends and fans!

Random person: Ah so then just stop the TSR thing and create for free if that's all. Keep the friends and fans but no paysites.

FA: Noo I can't! I...I---community!!!!

Random person: So it's really the money factor.

FA: ...squeaks... no I like creating for Sims.

Random person: Cha-ching $$$

FA: --goes emo--- STFU! You have no idea what I'm all about!!!!!!


Ye-ahhh so it's the money thang. They'll never tell how much exactly nor ever say in absolute e-written word that they are paid. What would the Sim community ever think of them if they revealed themselves as the money-grubbing porkers they truly are? Just devestating!  :wink:

[Anouk]

Ok, correct me if I get this wrong, but... you were paid for those files by TSR. They then became their property and so you no longer have a say about what happens to them, because once you accepted money for them, it passed out of your hands. But, if you were not paid for them but gave them to TSR, the same thing applies.
     Also, by agreeing that they could host "your" files forever, you gave up any right to say what happens to them supposedly. Alright, going on this same thread, that they are no longer belonging to you because you gave the rights to distribute them to TSR, once they sell the files they have no say about what happens to those files.
     That sale means that the property passes out of theit hands into the hands of the consumer. The consumer is the new owner and they can do what they bloody well wish with said file because it is their property by right of the sale that occured. If they want to delete it, they can. If they want to put it into their game, they can. If they want to give it to their daughter's cousin's boyfriend, they can because it belongs to them through right of the sale!
     Once money is exchanged for goods, the previous owner has no say about how their creation is used. If I went to the store and bought a designer dress made totally of imported silk and took it home and made monogrammed hankies out of it, they couldn't stop me because I own it because I paid for it. If I wanted to make silk nappies for a baby, I could because I paid for it. If I wanted to give it to the pastor's wife for a church pageant, I could because, you guessed it, I paid for it.
     The files hosted in the booty were paid for. The owner then decided to give it away. TSR no longer owns that file. They, and you, no longer have a say in what happens to it because it was paid for. Sure, it cuts down on sales, but so does the custom of handing clothing down to younger siblings. I don't hear Levi Strauss bitching about that custom, do you?
     Once paid for, it is the owner's to do with as they please. And, you ought to feel complimented that so many people are willing to go through so much crap to get your stuff. It's good quality, looks good. But once a file is sold or you agree to give it to a site to host forever, it passes out of your hands and you lose any right to say what happens to it.
     The other creators had changes of philosophy and changed their minds, and they took it to someone who could get them out of an unfair agreement. But, if they had been in the pay status arena, I think they would have figured out that when you sell something, you no longer have a right to say what happens to it once the money is paid.
     This was explained to me by a friend who actually crafts items for sale in the tangible world. He designs it, sells it and doesn't gripe about what's done with it because as he says, "Once it leaves my hands, once the money is in my hand in its place, I lost any jurisdiction over it. It is no longer my property." If you don't own it, you can't dictate terms. The booty was paid for.
     You wouldn't want to pay for a child's birthday present and give it to them, then the company decides later that they don't like the way they play with it and take it back. It's not their right to decide if junior wants to use the wrong end of the plastic hammer to hit the plastic nails into the plastic toybench because they don't own it once the money is paid. And, like I said before and I hope this poor horse isn't getting too badly bruised, when the money is paid it's mine and I'll do what I please with what I bought cause it's my property now. Have a nice day!

\
And THAT is why sims 2 files shouldn't be sold in the first place. It wasn't meant to be sold, period. All the problems paysites encounter is their own fault for trying to make money out of something they shouldn't. Now if they take that risk, they shoudl take the consequences with it.

[Jaida]

One things for sure, I love a good debate.... And I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong...  Hope you can say the same!  

No. You don't admit that TSR is wrong for plagiarism. You don't admit that you're wrong for violating copyright law by making money off of the Sims 2. TSR is making money off of not only the Sims 2 but several other artists. Think I'm wrong? I'm sure SilverArrows and Ren would love to prove otherwise

At S2C you asked:

NeptuneSuzy you say that PMBD is holding your creations against your will but I hope that as an FA at TSR that you are aware that TSR does the exact same thing. They're worse than PMBD. When icedMango gave up her FA status Thomas still held her items for pay. It wasn't until people starting having a fit that he finally gave them up for free.


Also people who've been banned or left TSR still had their downloads up on the site. Let's say you decided to leave TSR for whatever reason. I can bet that TSR would still be collecting money for your creations.

I just can't see you supporting a site that does the exact same thing that PMBD does but on a worse scale.

And now you say:

When she responded she only answered part of my question. An insignificant part.

I'll go slowly to prove this statement of yours is false... you can apologize when I'm done!

Quite arrogant are we? Since you're going to be that way. You're only making a mockery out of yourself by being so conceited. Your creations aren't even that good to make up for it. Nouk's is talented enough to have your attitude, but she's a bigger person by not acting like you. And you wonder why people give you shit.

This was my response:

TSR 'is not' holding my creations against my will..... "I" made the choice to post them at TSR.
PMBD 'is' holding my creations against my will because "I didn't" chose to post my creations at PMBD.

Looks to me like I answered  your question.....

Nope, you didn't answer my entire message. Only one sentence of it. You didn't refute the statement I made about TSR making money off of icedMango and Ren's creations. That's called thievery. I wanted you to answer that. You are able to admit to being wrong, remember? :roll:

Let's break it down:

You asked: NeptuneSuzy you say that PMBD is holding your creations against your will but I hope that as an FA at TSR that you are aware that TSR does the exact same thing.

Ok, you pointed out that PMBD and TSR do the same thing... hold my creations against my will. You asked if I knew that they do the same thing...

And I answered.... I actually think this part was pretty clear: I said that TSR asked if they could post my creations forever and I said yes... see not against my will...  But PMBD never asked if they could post my creations.....  I never had a choice... . Thus against my will. See, not the same thing.

But Ren, SilverArrows, Sherrie and icedMango didn't give them permission. It was only until EA had to step in and Thomas pulled the downloads.

Your next statement: Also people who've been banned or left TSR still had their downloads up on the site. Let's say you decided to leave TSR for whatever reason. I can bet that TSR would still be collecting money for your creations.

Again... No questions here.... no need for an answer....  But, hell, I'll address the subject later anyway.... just for fun!

Your next statement: I just can't see you supporting a site that does the exact same thing that PMBD does but on a worse scale.

Again... No questions here.... no need for an answer....

You didn't refute the points I made. If this was a competitive debate round
the judge would give me victory after your constructive speech. Oh by the way, you didn't address the subject at all later. :mrgreen:


You call us thieves. Yet you support The Sims Resource. They keep creations of former FA's to make money off of them. That is illegal in your interpretation of the making of CC and the EULA They share bank information with other people without the owner's permission or knowledge. That is a felony, people spend up to 10 years in prison for that. And finally they are making money off of Sims 2 content, which is a violation of copyright law. Think I'm wrong? Read ahead:

To answer your question: Yes, running a paysite featuring content for the Sims 2 is considered to be a violation of both the Electronic Arts Terms of Service and copyright law. This includes both content that is sold directly and content that is offered as part of a subscription service. Additionally, the intent behind providing these tools to the Sims 2 community was to promote the sharing of content, not commercial activity. If you know of a site that is offering Sims 2 content as a pay-service, we would ask that you please let us know so that we can take the appropriate steps to address the situation.

You also support paysites like Pandora Sims, which the owner has stolen mods from Numenor and J.M. Pescado without their permission. Don't believe me? PM Numenor or Pescado. They'll confirm it. You also support paysites like Pure Sims, where the owner, Sasilia has falsely informed her customers making them think their money was going to support a charity for sick and poor children.

Now what does PMBD do? We give the Sims 2 Community what is rightfully theirs. Custom content for us to use. Ultimately custom content belongs to every person who plays or has created the Sims 1/Sims 2. You wonder why people don't praise you for having a free site. Frankly we don't give a damn. You are still supporting the thievery of every person who plays the Sims 2. That's why the EULA is in place.


Now next time say something more humorous.

[HideTheRum]

NeptuneSuzy, you sound so chirpy and satisfied with your answers about TSR that I almost feel sorry for you. You sound like brainwashed or something, seriously, because there's no way you're not able to think a little bit more than that. You may not allow yourself to see how wrong and fucked up the policy (and pretty much everything else) at TSR is, but fortunately not everyone is as in denial as you are.

[Paden]

NeptuneSuzy, you sound so chirpy and satisfied with your answers about TSR that I almost feel sorry for you. You sound like brainwashed or something, seriously, because there's no way you're not able to think a little bit more than that. You may not allow yourself to see how wrong and fucked up the policy (and pretty much everything else) at TSR is, but fortunately not everyone is as in denial as you are.

Can I have some of what she's smoking, cause I'm tired of plain old Camel filters.... *whines* I wanna be chirpy tooooooooooo! And again with what I said earlier, If I paid for, I own it and I'll do what I damn well please with it, even if it means I give it to ten thousand people who just happen to be close personal friends of Fluffy the Paysite Eating Puppy!!!

[Ensign EO]

Usually when you buy stuff, you aren't supposed to resell it.  And you aren't supposed to claim you created the item if you, in fact, did not.  You don't really have full freedom of things to do with the stuff you buy--not legally, anyway.

PMBD does not do either of those things (resell or plagiarise).  All of the booty is credited to the original creator/site, which allows the paysites to see that their stuff is available here.  It would be a lot more devious to rename everything and not offer any preview images, but the number of complaints would probably outweigh the joy of being tricksies.  And no content is withheld for cash.

Paysites are reselling game code.  And the paysites that have photoskinned items generally are reselling other people's creations/trademarks (most of them go straight for the designer stuff).  Some paysites are claiming to have created things that they obviously did not make.

Of course, they aren't supposed to be selling the content in the first place, so it doesn't really matter if my beef jerky says it's not for resale.  (And unlike the paysites, the creators of my beef jerky are paying taxes and are a legitimate business.)

[AwwBoo]

They share bank information with other people without the owner's permission or knowledge. That is a felony, people spend up to 10 years in prison for that.

Seriously?  They do this?  That is beyond illegal.  It's immoral.  How in the hell can anyone justify this?

I think if other subscribers knew about this they would not be so willing to share their credit card or paypal info with TSR.  I had no idea myself and am now thoroughly disgusted.

[Ensign EO]

Yeah, Rose did it.  There's a thread on it somewhere.  Of course, many Simmers love her stuff, but they'd have to about as brainwashed as Suzy to ignore the proof that Rose did that.

[Jaida]

I can't believe that people haven't brought that proof to Pay Pal. They should.
I'm not expecting Suzy to come back and refute what I've said. Meh.

[NeptuneSuzy]

Just for the record, let me say a few things....

I'm not on any side in this anti-pay issue. I have a 100% Free Site, I have free items at 4 other sites and I have items at TSR. I feel that some paysites are very greedy and not community-spirited. But I feel that harassing emails etc and hosting files that creator's don't want hosted here is even less community spirited. I've been in this community since the beginning and I hate to see it fractured. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I would hope that we could capture the community spirit that we had a couple of years ago when we were all trying to figure out the files and learning to mesh etc. Or at least maybe we can all be a little more tolerant of each other.

Personally, I don't care where my files go .... my site... mts2.... tsr.... the exchange....PMBD.... or the moon! However some people do. Actually many of you have TOU's way more extensive than I do. I would abide by your TOU, and I just think we'd have a better community if we respected each others wishes when it concerns our creations. I know that everyone here hates paysites for various reasons, and I agree to a certain point. I don't agree that taking someone's files is the way to deal with it. That's just seems mean-spirited to me.

One of the issues I have with PMBD is that I think you should be more upfront. Rather than hide behind the EULA, just admit that what you're doing is wrong but that you're doing it regardless. You want disclosure from paysites, so why not give a little disclosure here.    ie: We're taking paysite files and freeing them until the paysite goes free, we know it's wrong but we're doing it anyway because we want the community to be an all free community, or because we believe paysites hinder sharing etc. In some cases the copying of files can be theft of intellectual property, just admit that you're willing to do it anyway, just be up front. This forum in some ways is a breath of fresh air due to it's openess, so why not be even more open and direct.

My other issue with PMBD is that some young and/or immature people get a sense of unrealistic confidence (they get riled up) and move to the direction of harassment. Not everyone, and probably not any regaular posters here. And I know that many of you here denounce what they do.... ie: that 12 yr old who posted something stupid about a month ago, some of you felt he was giving the movement a bad name,  so you know what I'm talking about. I know quite a few very nice people who are generous and do wonderful things with their lives yet they have pay creations somewhere. These people are harassed as if they were evil, yet they may be far more generous in reality than the rest of us. There are real individuals on the other side of the screen with real feelings just like yours.

About TSR, I know you all have questions etc. but I don't own TSR. I don't make their policies. I have no influence in TSR's policies, sorry. And since it's not my site I'm not defending their policies either. On my own site if someone wanted to take down creations, I would of course take them down.  Some of you mentioned FA's and payment. I can't speak for others, but I don't mind saying that not all FA's get paid and that TSR is not paying me any big bucks, LOL! I'm there for personal reasons, and it has nothing to do with money. I'm not held hostage at TSR, LOL! And god knows I have my issues with them.... you have no idea!

Here's an example of something that really bothers me. Numenor. He has given so much to the community, yet because he has 1 pay item he's branded an evil pay creator and his item is in the booty. That just doesn't seem right. I would think that he should be an exception to the rule given all he's done (we'd have no color on objects without CEP) for us, so that you would not include him in the booty/evil paysite category.

These are just my thoughts. Hopefully, before you arm yourselves with boulders you'll keep in mind that I'm willing to enter the lion's dead, unlike most are! LOL!  

[Hecubus]

Suzy, I'll leave the rest of the discussion to the others, but I want to address the Numenor piece:

Our policy is that ALL Sims content should be freely shared, as explicitly stated in the EULA. Therefore, if any money is required in exchange for any sims content, it's considered 'pay'. About a month ago, I was made aware of that file on Numenor's site; while I agree 100% that he has done an incredible amount for the community (not the least of which is the CEP), if the line is 'money for package file', then his file must stay in the booty.

It is unfortunate - so many good designers who have one or two pay sets must be represented in the booty. I'd be much happier to see Holy Simoly, for example, release their three sets and ask for free-will donations. And i[m certain that the income from those sets support their site and not pay creators. But if we let sites like that 'get by', where do we draw the line? Therefore, we have made the policy simple.

Hope this explains it for you.


ETA: Okay, I have to comment on one other thing. You stated above that we should "stop hiding behind the EULA and admit what we're doing is wrong". The thing is, we do not believe what we are doing IS wrong. We firmly believe that user created game content should NOT cost any money. The only game I know of that allows for pay content is Second Life, and I find that disturbing. The fact that the EULA and recent statements from EA indicate taht user created game content should be freely available for all is simply that 'documentation' that supports our belief that what we do is Right.

[AwwBoo]

One of the issues I have with PMBD is that I think you should be more upfront. Rather than hide behind the EULA, just admit that what you're doing is wrong but that you're doing it regardless.

I may be rather new to the whole anti-paysite thing, but I don't see that anyone is doing anything wrong here.  I've read both sides of the argument.  The bottom line is that the paysites are engaging in criminal activity.  Also, as Paden pointed out, the files here are paid for.  They are simply being shared within the community.  That is what EA had in mind all along.  They have come out against paysites, not sharing.  How can it be theft when the files are all paid for and EA has said that charging for such items is actually illegal in the first place?

[Ensign EO]

Suzy, if it was proven by EA that what PMBD was doing was declared illegal, I know that some people have stated that they would abandon the cause and move on.  You may think it's wrong, but most of the people who do partake in it don't think so.

I'm still not sure what you mean by copying.  I don't think copying is a synonym for redistribution.

It also is not the "meanest" thing that could be done.  There are many "meaner" things that PMBD could be doing instead.

And many people agree that not all paysite owners are greedy and/or evil.