PMBD

Since you won't answer my question at S2C I'll also ask you here. Unless you wish to ignore me again. Or do you wish to only answer questions that you can argue?

By Yours Truly


When she responded she only answered part of my question. An insignificant part.

By Neptune Suzy:


You may think that you refuted this argument but I specifically asked you how PMBD was worse than TSR.

I replied:


After that you completely ignored my question. How is PMBD worse than TSR. And how do you bash PMBD while TSR holds uploads hostage and make money off of their creations? Why do you defend TSR yet not tell me why they hold creations against their will? Or at least negate what I said? Is it because you know it's true? If you wish to shamelessly bash PMBD then you can't defend TSR because they do the exact same thing to artists except they're making money. PMBD is only upholding the law. We are not here for selfish reasons like rat bastard Thomas.

If you're going to ignore people's questions then why are you even in the debate forum? You talk of respect yet you leave people hanging instead of answering a simple question. Maybe it's time for you to show some respect.

If all they cared about was their items being, in their opinion, wrongfully distributed, then I'm sure they realise that once their items are no longer available on a paysite, but instead are available for free, the items would be removed from the booty.  How many paysites have gone free, or how many creators have left paysites and started their own free site, just so that PMBD wouldn't redistribute their items without their permission?

What is the meaning of the quotation marks in Sue's post?  o.O

To create the illusion of textual "emphasis", of course.

"I" hate it when "people" use "what amounts to" "air quotes" in typing "online."

Hey!  You guys are a pisser!   * Tosses everyone a beer and wonders who goes under the table first! LOL!

One things for sure, I love a good debate.... And I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong...  Hope you can say the same!  ;)



At S2C you asked:




And now you say:



I'll go slowly to prove this statement of yours is false... you can apologize when I'm done! ;)

This was my response:


Looks to me like I answered  your question.....

Let's break it down:

You asked: NeptuneSuzy you say that PMBD is holding your creations against your will but I hope that as an FA at TSR that you are aware that TSR does the exact same thing.

Ok, you pointed out that PMBD and TSR do the same thing... hold my creations against my will. You asked if I knew that they do the same thing...

And I answered.... I actually think this part was pretty clear: I said that TSR asked if they could post my creations forever and I said yes... see not against my will...  But PMBD never asked if they could post my creations.....  I never had a choice... . Thus against my will. See, not the same thing.

Make sense so far?

You're other statements: They're worse than PMBD. When icedMango gave up her FA status Thomas still held her items for pay. It wasn't until people starting having a fit that he finally gave them up for free.

No questions here.... no need for an answer....

Your next statement: Also people who've been banned or left TSR still had their downloads up on the site. Let's say you decided to leave TSR for whatever reason. I can bet that TSR would still be collecting money for your creations.

Again... No questions here.... no need for an answer....  But, hell, I'll address the subject later anyway.... just for fun!

Your next statement: I just can't see you supporting a site that does the exact same thing that PMBD does but on a worse scale.

Again... No questions here.... no need for an answer....


Looks like I answered the only question...

Hmmmm....  You seeing the underside of that table yet! LOL!  Have another Beer!


I'll go on when I have proof that I'm debating someone who's a big enough person to admit when they're wrong!  

:)

It's not a play on words. She asked a question and in good faith I answered it twice at S2C..... more than most people would... And I showed up here.... way more than most people would do.....  



I have nothing to apologize for, people are not required to answer questions in this world.  However, SlayerAngel accused me of not answering her question when I actually did. Hence the apology.  

If I didn't answer her question, I would have explained why. Or told her I wasn't going to etc....  

:)

She's not going to answer the hard questions guys - she's not interested.  She'd rather tell you all to respect her and call you all thieves.

Or even respond to statements that have now been rewritten as questions.  Looks like she's going for the opposite of quoting each sentence separately and responding to it.  Respond to one thing and spend the rest of the post talking about respect.  :wink:

Edited because "each each" doesn't really make sense.

No - it's just that good debate for her means thinking what she tells you - otherwise you're not debating with yourself - you harassing thief.  :D

No, I do not think TSR is worse than PMBD because TSR tells you in advance that they want to host your items forever when you upload them, so you have a choice, you can decide not to upload. PMBD uploads without asking the creator so the craetor has no option to not upload.

They don't do the same thing because the creator has a choice to not upload at TSR. The creator has no choice at PMBD. So I'm not supporting a site that does the same thing as PMBD, they do not do the same thing.


I realize they could still be making money on my uploads and I'm OK with that. If I wasn't OK with it for some reason then I'd have no one to blame but myself because I made the choice to upload there.

Questions answers.
:)

See your questions answered above... I guess she didn't lie...

Suzy, Piraten act all files for everything, free distributing after Eula. TSR is illegaly, your acting on TSR also illegal.

You decided thus against Eula

If TSR tells you that they wish to keep your items forever, and you agreed to it when uploading there, why do they buckle when people get PayPal and EA involved in their complaint about TSR not allowing them to remove their items?  Couldn't they just say, "We had an agreement"?

Why does it make sense to you?  Why should TSR be allowed to hold your items forever, even when you want to remove them?  Weren't you talking about creator rights?  Shouldn't it be your right to be able to remove your items if you uploaded them yourself, without having to go through hoops to delete them?

Suzy...
Thank you for being a "sport" unlike other creators that we bug.
Anyway, just want to say that we stand for our rights, and whatever happen, PMBD will pirate until all paysites are destroyed....

Uhm.. Suzy? Can you read? If so please read the EULA!

Weve all been saying this "Gazillion" times!

Happy Birthday!!!!! .....


Anyway, NeptuneSuzy allready told us plenty of times that the rights of EA aren't important and can be aggravated untill they finally seek legal ways of dealing with it, and that the rights of your fellow creators is more important.

I'd say, let them find legal ways to deal with it too. That's the kind of respect Neptune seems to give a big company, simply because they are a company..., and paysites are companies selling products. Not community members.

Suzy, you just don't seem to understand that a large amount of people cannot respect people who disrespect others (being community, EA, etc.). You might see that differently, but if you do not understand how these people feel, your argument of respect does not apply for them at all. Respect should still go all the way, and if people see that paysites are disrespectfull for someone's wishes, and in return ask for the same kind of respect they don't wish to give to another, it will go nowhere. If you feel it's not important, that's weird but fine, but others do see it as very important.

just for curiosity

@ suzy

how much do you earn monthly or how much does TSR pay you for 1 Month? is it the money why you are FA or is it just the whole TSR community you really like? Why not being SA then?

Ok, correct me if I get this wrong, but... you were paid for those files by TSR. They then became their property and so you no longer have a say about what happens to them, because once you accepted money for them, it passed out of your hands. But, if you were not paid for them but gave them to TSR, the same thing applies.
     Also, by agreeing that they could host "your" files forever, you gave up any right to say what happens to them supposedly. Alright, going on this same thread, that they are no longer belonging to you because you gave the rights to distribute them to TSR, once they sell the files they have no say about what happens to those files.
     That sale means that the property passes out of theit hands into the hands of the consumer. The consumer is the new owner and they can do what they bloody well wish with said file because it is their property by right of the sale that occured. If they want to delete it, they can. If they want to put it into their game, they can. If they want to give it to their daughter's cousin's boyfriend, they can because it belongs to them through right of the sale!
     Once money is exchanged for goods, the previous owner has no say about how their creation is used. If I went to the store and bought a designer dress made totally of imported silk and took it home and made monogrammed hankies out of it, they couldn't stop me because I own it because I paid for it. If I wanted to make silk nappies for a baby, I could because I paid for it. If I wanted to give it to the pastor's wife for a church pageant, I could because, you guessed it, I paid for it.
     The files hosted in the booty were paid for. The owner then decided to give it away. TSR no longer owns that file. They, and you, no longer have a say in what happens to it because it was paid for. Sure, it cuts down on sales, but so does the custom of handing clothing down to younger siblings. I don't hear Levi Strauss bitching about that custom, do you?
     Once paid for, it is the owner's to do with as they please. And, you ought to feel complimented that so many people are willing to go through so much crap to get your stuff. It's good quality, looks good. But once a file is sold or you agree to give it to a site to host forever, it passes out of your hands and you lose any right to say what happens to it.
     The other creators had changes of philosophy and changed their minds, and they took it to someone who could get them out of an unfair agreement. But, if they had been in the pay status arena, I think they would have figured out that when you sell something, you no longer have a right to say what happens to it once the money is paid.
     This was explained to me by a friend who actually crafts items for sale in the tangible world. He designs it, sells it and doesn't gripe about what's done with it because as he says, "Once it leaves my hands, once the money is in my hand in its place, I lost any jurisdiction over it. It is no longer my property." If you don't own it, you can't dictate terms. The booty was paid for.
     You wouldn't want to pay for a child's birthday present and give it to them, then the company decides later that they don't like the way they play with it and take it back. It's not their right to decide if junior wants to use the wrong end of the plastic hammer to hit the plastic nails into the plastic toybench because they don't own it once the money is paid. And, like I said before and I hope this poor horse isn't getting too badly bruised, when the money is paid it's mine and I'll do what I please with what I bought cause it's my property now. Have a nice day!

As if an FA would answer to that particular question. It would lead to public devestation if it was placed in concrete truth that they were paid and create for the fun of cashing a check.


Random person: Why do you stay at TSR?

FA: The friendly community! I stay because I uber fucking wubbles my FA friends and fans!

Random person: Ah so then just stop the TSR thing and create for free if that's all. Keep the friends and fans but no paysites.

FA: Noo I can't! I...I---community!!!!

Random person: So it's really the money factor.

FA: ...squeaks... no I like creating for Sims.

Random person: Cha-ching $$$

FA: --goes emo--- STFU! You have no idea what I'm all about!!!!!!


Ye-ahhh so it's the money thang. They'll never tell how much exactly nor ever say in absolute e-written word that they are paid. What would the Sim community ever think of them if they revealed themselves as the money-grubbing porkers they truly are? Just devestating!  :wink:

\
And THAT is why sims 2 files shouldn't be sold in the first place. It wasn't meant to be sold, period. All the problems paysites encounter is their own fault for trying to make money out of something they shouldn't. Now if they take that risk, they shoudl take the consequences with it.

No. You don't admit that TSR is wrong for plagiarism. You don't admit that you're wrong for violating copyright law by making money off of the Sims 2. TSR is making money off of not only the Sims 2 but several other artists. Think I'm wrong? I'm sure SilverArrows and Ren would love to prove otherwise





Quite arrogant are we? Since you're going to be that way. You're only making a mockery out of yourself by being so conceited. Your creations aren't even that good to make up for it. Nouk's is talented enough to have your attitude, but she's a bigger person by not acting like you. And you wonder why people give you shit.



Nope, you didn't answer my entire message. Only one sentence of it. You didn't refute the statement I made about TSR making money off of icedMango and Ren's creations. That's called thievery. I wanted you to answer that. You are able to admit to being wrong, remember? :roll:



But Ren, SilverArrows, Sherrie and icedMango didn't give them permission. It was only until EA had to step in and Thomas pulled the downloads.







You didn't refute the points I made. If this was a competitive debate round
the judge would give me victory after your constructive speech. Oh by the way, you didn't address the subject at all later. :mrgreen:


You call us thieves. Yet you support The Sims Resource. They keep creations of former FA's to make money off of them. That is illegal in your interpretation of the making of CC and the EULA They share bank information with other people without the owner's permission or knowledge. That is a felony, people spend up to 10 years in prison for that. And finally they are making money off of Sims 2 content, which is a violation of copyright law. Think I'm wrong? Read ahead:



You also support paysites like Pandora Sims, which the owner has stolen mods from Numenor and J.M. Pescado without their permission. Don't believe me? PM Numenor or Pescado. They'll confirm it. You also support paysites like Pure Sims, where the owner, Sasilia has falsely informed her customers making them think their money was going to support a charity for sick and poor children.

Now what does PMBD do? We give the Sims 2 Community what is rightfully theirs. Custom content for us to use. Ultimately custom content belongs to every person who plays or has created the Sims 1/Sims 2. You wonder why people don't praise you for having a free site. Frankly we don't give a damn. You are still supporting the thievery of every person who plays the Sims 2. That's why the EULA is in place.


Now next time say something more humorous.



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NeptuneSuzy, you sound so chirpy and satisfied with your answers about TSR that I almost feel sorry for you. You sound like brainwashed or something, seriously, because there's no way you're not able to think a little bit more than that. You may not allow yourself to see how wrong and fucked up the policy (and pretty much everything else) at TSR is, but fortunately not everyone is as in denial as you are.

Can I have some of what she's smoking, cause I'm tired of plain old Camel filters.... *whines* I wanna be chirpy tooooooooooo! And again with what I said earlier, If I paid for, I own it and I'll do what I damn well please with it, even if it means I give it to ten thousand people who just happen to be close personal friends of Fluffy the Paysite Eating Puppy!!!

Usually when you buy stuff, you aren't supposed to resell it.  And you aren't supposed to claim you created the item if you, in fact, did not.  You don't really have full freedom of things to do with the stuff you buy--not legally, anyway.

PMBD does not do either of those things (resell or plagiarise).  All of the booty is credited to the original creator/site, which allows the paysites to see that their stuff is available here.  It would be a lot more devious to rename everything and not offer any preview images, but the number of complaints would probably outweigh the joy of being tricksies.  And no content is withheld for cash.

Paysites are reselling game code.  And the paysites that have photoskinned items generally are reselling other people's creations/trademarks (most of them go straight for the designer stuff).  Some paysites are claiming to have created things that they obviously did not make.

Of course, they aren't supposed to be selling the content in the first place, so it doesn't really matter if my beef jerky says it's not for resale.  (And unlike the paysites, the creators of my beef jerky are paying taxes and are a legitimate business.)

Seriously?  They do this?  That is beyond illegal.  It's immoral.  How in the hell can anyone justify this?

I think if other subscribers knew about this they would not be so willing to share their credit card or paypal info with TSR.  I had no idea myself and am now thoroughly disgusted.

Yeah, Rose did it.  There's a thread on it somewhere.  Of course, many Simmers love her stuff, but they'd have to about as brainwashed as Suzy to ignore the proof that Rose did that.

I can't believe that people haven't brought that proof to Pay Pal. They should.
I'm not expecting Suzy to come back and refute what I've said. Meh.

Just for the record, let me say a few things....

I'm not on any side in this anti-pay issue. I have a 100% Free Site, I have free items at 4 other sites and I have items at TSR. I feel that some paysites are very greedy and not community-spirited. But I feel that harassing emails etc and hosting files that creator's don't want hosted here is even less community spirited. I've been in this community since the beginning and I hate to see it fractured. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I would hope that we could capture the community spirit that we had a couple of years ago when we were all trying to figure out the files and learning to mesh etc. Or at least maybe we can all be a little more tolerant of each other.

Personally, I don't care where my files go .... my site... mts2.... tsr.... the exchange....PMBD.... or the moon! However some people do. Actually many of you have TOU's way more extensive than I do. I would abide by your TOU, and I just think we'd have a better community if we respected each others wishes when it concerns our creations. I know that everyone here hates paysites for various reasons, and I agree to a certain point. I don't agree that taking someone's files is the way to deal with it. That's just seems mean-spirited to me.

One of the issues I have with PMBD is that I think you should be more upfront. Rather than hide behind the EULA, just admit that what you're doing is wrong but that you're doing it regardless. You want disclosure from paysites, so why not give a little disclosure here.    ie: We're taking paysite files and freeing them until the paysite goes free, we know it's wrong but we're doing it anyway because we want the community to be an all free community, or because we believe paysites hinder sharing etc. In some cases the copying of files can be theft of intellectual property, just admit that you're willing to do it anyway, just be up front. This forum in some ways is a breath of fresh air due to it's openess, so why not be even more open and direct.

My other issue with PMBD is that some young and/or immature people get a sense of unrealistic confidence (they get riled up) and move to the direction of harassment. Not everyone, and probably not any regaular posters here. And I know that many of you here denounce what they do.... ie: that 12 yr old who posted something stupid about a month ago, some of you felt he was giving the movement a bad name,  so you know what I'm talking about. I know quite a few very nice people who are generous and do wonderful things with their lives yet they have pay creations somewhere. These people are harassed as if they were evil, yet they may be far more generous in reality than the rest of us. There are real individuals on the other side of the screen with real feelings just like yours.

About TSR, I know you all have questions etc. but I don't own TSR. I don't make their policies. I have no influence in TSR's policies, sorry. And since it's not my site I'm not defending their policies either. On my own site if someone wanted to take down creations, I would of course take them down.  Some of you mentioned FA's and payment. I can't speak for others, but I don't mind saying that not all FA's get paid and that TSR is not paying me any big bucks, LOL! I'm there for personal reasons, and it has nothing to do with money. I'm not held hostage at TSR, LOL! And god knows I have my issues with them.... you have no idea!

Here's an example of something that really bothers me. Numenor. He has given so much to the community, yet because he has 1 pay item he's branded an evil pay creator and his item is in the booty. That just doesn't seem right. I would think that he should be an exception to the rule given all he's done (we'd have no color on objects without CEP) for us, so that you would not include him in the booty/evil paysite category.

These are just my thoughts. Hopefully, before you arm yourselves with boulders you'll keep in mind that I'm willing to enter the lion's dead, unlike most are! LOL!  :D

Suzy, I'll leave the rest of the discussion to the others, but I want to address the Numenor piece:

Our policy is that ALL Sims content should be freely shared, as explicitly stated in the EULA. Therefore, if any money is required in exchange for any sims content, it's considered 'pay'. About a month ago, I was made aware of that file on Numenor's site; while I agree 100% that he has done an incredible amount for the community (not the least of which is the CEP), if the line is 'money for package file', then his file must stay in the booty.

It is unfortunate - so many good designers who have one or two pay sets must be represented in the booty. I'd be much happier to see Holy Simoly, for example, release their three sets and ask for free-will donations. And i[m certain that the income from those sets support their site and not pay creators. But if we let sites like that 'get by', where do we draw the line? Therefore, we have made the policy simple.

Hope this explains it for you.


ETA: Okay, I have to comment on one other thing. You stated above that we should "stop hiding behind the EULA and admit what we're doing is wrong". The thing is, we do not believe what we are doing IS wrong. We firmly believe that user created game content should NOT cost any money. The only game I know of that allows for pay content is Second Life, and I find that disturbing. The fact that the EULA and recent statements from EA indicate taht user created game content should be freely available for all is simply that 'documentation' that supports our belief that what we do is Right.

I may be rather new to the whole anti-paysite thing, but I don't see that anyone is doing anything wrong here.  I've read both sides of the argument.  The bottom line is that the paysites are engaging in criminal activity.  Also, as Paden pointed out, the files here are paid for.  They are simply being shared within the community.  That is what EA had in mind all along.  They have come out against paysites, not sharing.  How can it be theft when the files are all paid for and EA has said that charging for such items is actually illegal in the first place?

Suzy, if it was proven by EA that what PMBD was doing was declared illegal, I know that some people have stated that they would abandon the cause and move on.  You may think it's wrong, but most of the people who do partake in it don't think so.

I'm still not sure what you mean by copying.  I don't think copying is a synonym for redistribution.

It also is not the "meanest" thing that could be done.  There are many "meaner" things that PMBD could be doing instead.

And many people agree that not all paysite owners are greedy and/or evil.

I understand the mission and all. But maybe more people would be on board again if it all wasn't so strict, so black or white sort of. I think the harshness turns people off.




I actually agree with you (bold), but not because of EA's license. I would feel the same way if EA has a different license blessing paysites. I agree because I think a community based on sharing is what the game should be about.

And, let's hope Sims3 doesn't go down the same road as second life....

If that happens, I will never, ever play it! I will stick to all of my Sims 2 stuff, thank you very much. And it's nice to see that someone has the courage to stick their heads into the lion's den, as I believe you called it.

I was an observer back at MTS2 when the community was coming together in order to advance the cause of custom game content. And yes, it was a good feeling watching as all you creative folks worked together. However, as I assume your aware, there where more than a few instances of paysite people who, having received the information and tools they needed, pulled their files and headed back home to cash in (thanks, BYEEE).

Also, it was TSR, the site which benefited the most (financially) from all the FREE tools and information provided by the community, which then turned around and refused links to the very site they were learning almost everything from. That was just  inexcusable behavior, plain and simple.

Aside from all that, one of the main reasons I personally support file sharing (as does EA the games creators), is that I‘m very disturbed that a game which has such a huge female following is also one of the few where the games community allows paysites to even exist. That's just unbalanced, unfair and wrong.

And thank you for having a 100% free site.

It's not so much about whether I personally think it's wrong, but it's causing alot of friction, and I think alot of folks get caught in the crossfire.


I guess, think of an  ebook, I could buy a Steven King e-novel, I own the novel but King still owns the copyright. I can't make 100,000 copies and give them away to my neighbors.... if I had 100,000 neighbors! LOL!


Well, that's certainly true!  :)


I'm sure that's true, but from the outside looking in so-to-speak, which is where I am, it looks very different. And I have a tough skin! LOL! I can't even imagine what it looks like to some meek individuals,  :lol:

Thank You!  :D

And I still have all my limbs... so far.. :lol:


Oh and I won't be buying Sims3 in that case either!

I'm snickering my ass off about not losing your limbs, cause I just changed my avatar from a panther the last week gone by... And yeah, I like your free site, you've got some stuff that rocks. I had all of the hairs you had and when my old computer took a dump on me, I lost it all, cause I didn't have those burned onto a CD yet. I do that now in case of meltdown, btw. I was heartbroken and couldn't for the life of me remember where in the hell I had gotten them. Then I found a link to your site and bingo! I gots mah hairs bek, dangit! It's good that you're willing to come and discuss this with us, and I for one appreciate it. Yeah, I can be a rude little bitch but when someone makes an effort to understand what we're trying to do, it helps. Free is good. Free is what EA said in the beginning. The legal thingie says "thou shalt not profit from the sweat of OUR balls" and lo, some of the unenlightened are doing just that. THAT is what I for one have the most problem with. That and I love all of the shiny, pretty, wonderful, cool, heheheheheheheeh *rubs hands together like Igor* downloads of custom content! The methods could be considered harsh, but that's the line we have to take because in the past we've sent in polite and kind emails asking about it, we get told to sod off and screw ourselves, we don't know squat. I wish it were otherwise, but I'm part of this. I believe in the sharing. And I will help the PMBD however I can. I don't send nasty emails, though. I'd rather say it to them on a forum and watch them race to clean it up, to be honest. If you're gonna say it, say it where it can be heard....

I sure do, I remeber this one gal (can't remember who) that used to show up when she needed something and then she'd just split without even a thank-you. She kept coming back and always got the help she needed,  :roll:  
Oh and there was a fair share of in-fighting then too! But it was damned exciting!


No Comment......  :roll:



FEMALES!  Are you blaming the females!? LOL! Or protecting them!?  :lol:


*Does the happy dance!   You're quite welcome!  :)


ETA:


That's great, all I'd like to see is a friendly community.  :wink:

Oh and thanks for the compliment on the hair!  :D

It's tewtally the chix fault.  Hells yes.

Further proof that vaginae are made of hate and greed.

You kill me Plum!  :lol:

And Suzy...I love your work.  You create some amazing stuff.  I have a bunch of it in my game.  Thank you for sharing it.  :D

Neither. First off,  Maxis could be blamed for originally allowing paysites to gain a foothold in the community. Then TSR, though not the first paysite, set an example for many of those that followed. And TSR, as we all know, is owned by a man (unless you've got some REALLY good dirt on Thomas).

As for the women on this site (and this board and MATY are the only two I frequent anymore) needing my protection....HA! :lol:

Quote NeptuneSuzy:


It is exactly what we are saying, at least I have said it on S2C, except for the wrong part. You just don't listen. Although, wrong is a relative term, and I would never use that term to describe something that I think is entirely right. You're splitting hairs again, NeptuneSuzy, and you should stop. We're the most upfront group in the entire community. I don't understand how you can think otherwise, other than because you don't listen. Ever. It is getting tiring.

Thanks, You're quite welcome. And I should say credit goes to Grizzelda and Chrissy6930 over at my site, they make great stuff!  :)

And BTW... this board is nothing if not entertaining! LOL!  :lol:

Wow Suzy,  I have new found respect for you for sticking it out and not going all psycho on us and threatening to hack us. *does a little salute thingy my dad taught me*

Redlove, she didn't "stick it out".  She hasn't responded to the least the last page of questions at all.

She didn't respond to my post at all. So that means I win! :mrgreen:

Angelica she did a lot more than other people did so I respect her for that. Maybe you're too jaded to appreciate her even coming here but I can. For as long as I've been here the creators haven't responded or responded and then went psycho and threatened with lawyers and other crap. She may not have answered all the questions but she did some. So to me she did stick it out.

ETA: Slayer you wins cookies

She came here to tell us that we are wrong and that we should apologize--and said so, several times.  She ignored pretty much everything that has been said.  You are giving her far too much credit.  Just because she didn't go "psycho" like the few that has actually came here does not equal win by any stretch of the imagination.

I still want to know how much money she is getting monthly for her "contribution" to this community from TSR.

(http://eatdessertfirst.homestead.com/~media/elements/Photodisk/miscellaneous/cookies.jpg)

MissAngelica it looks like you aren't reading everything I said. If you would take a moment to stop trying to be right about everything you would see that I never mentioned that she won. I said that I, keyword is I, had a new found respect for her. And I'm not going to let you try to tell me that I shouldn't have respect for her because I do. Maybe she did tell us we were wrong but what I said was I respect the way she said it. I'm not giving her far too much credit you're giving her too little by not giving her a chance and automatically stamping her bad because of the price of her CC. Maybe you should slow down and actually READ what I type and realize the difference between my opinion and yours before you reply hmm?  :wink:

Oh, but that doesn't matter because she has a 100% free site also!  :roll:

I'm not going to make a long post about your attitude of being better than everyone here, but i'd just like to know:
if you're really only there because you like tsr and the community there and all that other bs, then why arent you SA and your stuff completely free?
Because you're really in it for the money?

No one is going to take you seriously if all you do is treat them like they are beneath you and that they should praise you for merely speaking to them; and most won't take you seriously for having pay creations at tsr either.

I can't believe you have such an attitude suzy. You were one of my favorite creators but seeing all of your posts recently at s2c and here has been quite disappointing

There are so many things wrong with what you said but bottom line is that I disagree with you showing her any respect because I do not think she deserves it.  I can disagree with you.  I was expressing my opinion.  I wasn't "forcing" you to change yours.

Stop with the passive aggressive crap, btw.  It's very unbecoming.



It wouldn't surprise me that she's doing that as somehow a way to make a compromise with her deity to show she's not all bad.

I still don't get why I should pat her back for having a free site while she is one of the "oldest" FA'S at TSR? Get her away from TSR or at least the pay part of it and then let us celebrate the free site.

Oh well. I appreciate the fact she didn't come here and threaten to blow us up. It's not like anything anybody is saying is getting through to her any way so what's the problem with me saying one thing?

I've seen her free site. It's kind of lacking. I have a question about that. Does Windkeeper mind you editing her windows and offering them for free?
 :shock: Isn't that against TSR rules?

ETA: MissAngelica I could take your bait but I'm too nice for that.

Actually, that analogy would work for the game, not custom content.  Obviously, one can't copy the game and give it away to friends.  A book's copyright and the game's copyright is explicit about that.

However, if one so chose (and there was any purpose in doing so), one could take a quote out of their book, change the font, and insert a piece of paper with that replacement quote into the book that the friend bought.  

Yeah, my analogy sucks about as bad as the one I refuted, but whatever.  :x

What in the hell did you just say?  :lol: I had to read that 5 times to actually get it.

War is serious bizniz.

Eh, I hug more trees than anyone. I send emails to creators on TSR, but I'm nice about it, thank you (ask DOT, I'm still waiting for my cookies and cheerios). As for creating friction with the whole debate and the existence of PMBD, change is needed. Change creates friction. The people who are really getting caught in the crossfire are the KIDS who TSR and other major subscription/pay sites are ripping off because they are too young and too uninformed to know of the alternatives.

Honestly, I don't give a crap about EAxis's right to all the profit of the game (though I think they should). I care about the kiddies, and by extention, the kiddies' parents. They are getting ripped in a bad way...through the pocket.

Seriously, though, where's that email from EA, the one that isn't at Nouk's site, which stated clearly that redistribution of payfiles is ok by EA? I lost it.

I have to agree that shying away from the topic and refusing to take a stand because it "creates fiction" is a lame excuse.  I refuse to stand by and say "Well, since so many people do charge for pay items, it's ok.  I don't want to cause a fuss."  The bottom line is it's illegal, and it needs to be stopped.  If the paysite owners really want a sense of community and friendship they need to stop making people fork over their cash and start sharing their creations freely.  That would put an end to this once and for all.

The thing with paysite owners is no matter how much they like to underestimate it in their little brains, the pay versus free debate has ruined their happy moneymaking routine. That's why any lame excuse for blaming us is so common on their part, it's all about shifting attention from the real issue --> that they're plain wrong and that it is SO obvious that their struggle to make it look otherwise would be hilarious if money and young people and the spirit of an entire gaming community weren't involved! so, not satisfied with having taken advantadge of people for such a long time, they're now finding convenient to act like the victims of us 'evil bastards'. GAH.

No mentioned it, actually, but it seems fitting.  :wink:

I admit I'm not that active on fora, but I know that prior to this paysite issue, there was plenty of drama and hate in the Sims 2 community.  People, creator or not, left the community prior to PMBD.  People left hateful messages on guestbooks and in people's inboxes prior to PMBD.

But I guess evil and bad things didn't exist until the paysite issue arose.

It doesn't seem like most people who hate PMBD for whatever reason realise that most of the downloaders, the ones who only sign up when necessary to get things, who rarely, if ever say anything on fora, don't seem to give two shits about any of the debates, moral or not.  They just want stuff for their Sims.  And that's that PMBD is doing--catering to the people who like to grab stuff and run.  My father is that type of person, and to a lesser degree, I am as well.

But whatever.  Yeah, we're a bunch of jackasses and whatnot.  How dare people not be friends with everyone?  Really, it would be a better community if everyone was mindlessly friendly with everything that is capable of posting on the Internet.

That is a perfectly reasonable and pragmatic viewpoint. Naturally, that's why I don't really care either.


I know! Why do you think I chose this way? I mean, sure, lots of other people have done this filesharing thing in the past, but they were never right proper assholes about it. And what's the fun in THAT? I mean, hell, I don't even use this stuff. I just do it because it causes people butthurt. And that's just funny.


Well, technically, *I* don't think what we're doing is WRONG at all. I *DO* think it causes unnecessary butthurt, and that's what makes it FUN!


Again, I don't really believe this is wrong. I also similarly believe the concept of "theft of intellectual property" is absurd, but that's a different and unrelated story.


Users are required to convincingly pretend to be older than 12. It sez so in the registration agreement. Furthermore, harassment is not an activity supported by us, as this isn't really very funny.


Oh, my. REAL feelings. I do get such a warm, fuzzy sense of satisfaction when I stomp on people's pwecious feewings. Yes, I know, I'm an asshole. Pleading with me cuz I'm hurting someone's pwecious feewings is totally the wrong way to convince me of anything. If anything, that just makes me more determined to do it. Honestly, this entire thing would not have been much fun if it didn't cause butthurt.


Ultimately, I don't really have any beef with TSR creators specifically. After all, they don't run the site, and if they're getting paid money for that? Meh, so what? It's a properly pragmatic and mercenary attitude which I can respect. It's only when they get butthurt and whine about us that I sneer at them.

Thanks!  and Thanks! :D

They aren't Windkeeper's windows, they're Chrissy6930's windows.



No, no really good dirt! LOL! You're so right though about EA/Maxis.



Emails that are clever and friendly actually may win people over in my opinion. ;)
I guess that's what I meant when I said friction, that emails etc that are flaming just get people angry and the person that's being flamed is just going to get angry and all there is a bunch of friction.
But you're right, change often creates friction.

Now go hug a tree for Willy! LOL!




You're right, there were always dramatic fights etc., right from the beginning. I guess the difference was that they seemed to come and go, or maybe it was that the subject of the fight was always changing. Now it's the same battle going on and on so it feels different. But yes.... evil existed before the paysite issue! ;)

Pescado, has anyone ever told you that you have a way with words?

I can't imagine someone as evil and generally cruel as JM saying "pwecious feewings", but for some reason if I heard a diabolical overlord talking like a baby, I'd wet my pants and flee.  That is just wrong.

hahahahaha! I really have some fun in here! After all.

She didn't respond to Pescado either which means he gets cookies too! :mrgreen:


OT: Pescado I know that you don't care about people sharing your hacks but I think you should email bladex just for the lols.

I just saw an awful lot of mentioning that he likes butthurt.  :twisted:

Two words for butthurt: Preparation H!

As I have read through the posts, I just want to make one or maybe two points:  When purchasing Custom Content (one example - Peggy Sims 2) it looks really great in the screenshots, so you subscribe and you download and you go into your game....the hair damn sucks!  Gaps and weird colors, wacky in game, etc.  So, it's too late because you have already paid for this crap.  Peggy can keep her "intellectual property" - I think of all of her stuff I have 1 mesh.  There are many examples of this same problem with other objects not working properly in game as well.  As to TSR, when I had a sub and had issues - I went days, and I mean over 8-10 without a response to my issues.  So, exactly why are we paying for this?  Because once they have your money....so long suckers!
 :twisted:
I am glad I got a lot of things off of the booty, because some of the things I wanted really bad were really shitty in game.

The second point I would like to make is that though I disagree with Neptune Suzy, I do appreciate her sense of humor and her willingness to post here on the board.  Most creators wouldn't.  However, I do disagree with some of what she said, but I think it is ok to disagree and be civil and not insulting.  As to the "real" people on the other side of the screen.  Well, I happen to be a "real" person too.  With "real" bills, "real" kids, "real" college tuition, "real" cars, etc.  I just don't believe EA developed the Sims by sitting around a big conference table saying "Hey, let's come up with a game we can sell but other people can make content for it and make money by charging our customers for designs using our product....!"   Somehow, I just don't think that was the intent at all.  But meh, just my opinion.

Pes - Could you give a definition of butthurt?  That's a new one for me.  :D

Oh dear, I really should've read over that post first before hitting the submit button.  *Blushes*  I was going for friction.   :oops:  I suppose both could work though. :)

Hah, looks like I missed a word.  I don't pick on errors since I make plenty of my own--I really do think that both are fitting though, what with people who enjoy spinning stories about Delphy and whatnot.

I think of "butthurt" as being akin to teen angst, but who knows what goes on in JM's head.

I define "butthurt" as what comes from being constipated for two months and finally being able to push a cannonball sized load out of that tiny little oriface. THAT, my friends, would be real butthurt, in my estimation...

Why yes, that extremely graphic description is a very literal definition.

In Pescado's (and the usual) context it is to get upset over ridiculously insignificant things, like us big bad pixel thieves, and that silly teen angst as Ensign said.

I wouldn't praise NeptuneSuzy too much for coming here - she's a TSR ambassador and I believe they have the job of spreading the good word about TSR.  She's company relations guys - she's not being nice.

She doesn't really care about how this debate goes, or whether people have more free stuff - she just wants you to think well of her so by extension TSR's reputation will be better.  I wouldn't be surprised if she's being paid to do it.

She hasn't had the guts to really respond to the debate, or to legitimate questions, and seems to have bowed out of the s2c debate since Nouk got an answer to a question about custom meshes and the ability to sell them.

I love the butthurt speech.

It helps if you envision it in the mocking tone it was meant to be taken in. The analogy is apt: Only babies care about "feelings".

Actually, since babies are one of the most narcissicistic forms of life, they don't.

..Well, they care about /their/ feelings but that doesn't really count, does it?

Well, that's my only real beef with it all. I wouldn't have been bothered at this point if it wasn't for the harassment issue, that's what brought me back into it. Good to know you don't support such things, I didn't really think you did.


Watch out, I may stay here spreading the warm and  fuzzies all over your forum! LOL! Some pretty pink curtains.... maybe fresh flowers... a frilly fringe laden Free Willy wall lamp, in a lovely shade of violet of course........  


Luckily my skin's pretty thick at this point, don't have anything to whine about, and my butt's still in tact. ;)

-----------------------



Thank you for that! And civil disagreement is always welcomed, how boring the world would be if we all had the same opinions. :)


-------------------------


A TSR ambassador, LOL!    I have my own site to care for, thanks.   And besides I don't think I would be TSR's first pick as an ambassador.  


Well, actually three questions were put forth clearly and I answered clearly and was thanked… ...... good enough for me.  Besides, I showed up which is way more than most would.  :)  

BTW, don't worry I didn't disappear, ;)

Not an ambassador - to make hollow laughing - you've even advanced points for ambassador work. Far more than Atwa.

(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9860/neptunesuzyef3.jpg)

It doesn't matter if you don't disappear - your opinion means nothing - you have an agenda - possibly one you've been paid for.

If so, TSR does not appear to be getting their money's worth. And hey, ripping TSR off sounds good to me.

That! Sorry, never made the connection, LOL!  Those little gold boxes appear according to referrals from a rather ugly link on my own site's index page.



And I'm with Pescado.... if TSR would like to pay me for the link I'd be glad to take their money, better in my pocket, but darn, they haven't offered.  
:(

Yeah, but I don't believe that - otherwise they'd call them referrals - ambassadors go out from the site on behalf of the site.

And TSR do pay you - you admitted such on s2c.

They don't call them referrals because not everyone gets their little gold boxes from 'referrals', because not everyone has there own website to send the referals from......     I'm being a good sport here but you're getting a little too involved in these little gold boxes.....

Just curious, do you count everyone's little gold boxes?????
 :|

No I don't bother - I just go and look if I think people at TSR are being perceived as doing good work.  

And I'm not involved - I don't believe you and think that you are fake - simple as that.

NeptuneSuzy, thank you for speaking out here. I agree with practically everything you’ve said since page 3. And it has given me the courage to come out of lurkdom. So for all it’s worth here are my two cents.

Obviously everybody has to make up their own mind as to whether what PMBD is doing is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Personally I can’t say that I fully agree with it. Don’t get me wrong. I DO think all custom content should be free and freely shared. I DO think that paysites are bad. I DON’T like creators ripping off the community. And I DO think they should be stopped or at least curtailed.

What PMBD is doing is certainly helping achieve that.  :)  I won’t accuse you of being stealing thieves, because you cheat pay creators for their income. To me that is not really the issue. The part I don’t like is hosting a creator’s work somewhere where they don’t want it to be hosted. To me that is wrong. Just as wrong as TSR refusing to take down a creator’s work if they ask for it. I guess it’s a question of respect. At least let us keep a minimum measure of control over what happens to our creations.

But I also have to say that I find it a little bit ridiculous when creators start screaming and whining because TSR doesn’t want to take down their creations. I can’t help thinking ‘you did agree they could do just that, so what are you complaining about. You made a mistake, now learn to live with it”.  :roll:

Finally about the EULA argument. I, too, wish you would stop throwing that around all the time. I don’t completely buy it. There are a multitude of ways to interpret the EULA and just as many ways that the EULA interacts with copyright and intellectual property laws in different countries. I doubt if even the EA legal eagles have a clear-cut definition of whether paysites are illegal or not. In the end it would be up to a court to decide on the issue.

I do buy the argument about the moral wrongness of paysites, though. It isn’t difficult to see why nobody should get rich from a community of gamers, just because they know how to move vertices around and push a few buttons in SimPE. I think that argument would win over a lot more people.  :wink:

Okay, back to lurkdom. Thanks for listening.

Hmmmm.

Interesting.

Now usually we get trolls, and flamed by idiots, so its a nice change that we get someone who wants to talk nicely  :)  Well I was going to bombard you with questions, but I'll just stick with the one that I really want an answer to -

As an FA at TSR, how much do you get paid?

That is a question that I would also love to hear the answer to.  If we get a completely honest answer, I will give Suzy my first born son. (He's 22, so I doubt she will take him.  :lol: )

Arr........I say we string up NeptuneSuzy in place of our flag and sail by the TSR harbor........

Sooner or later, Suzy, TSR will crumble.....

Keep in mind this forum uses donation subs to get paid items, so, more or less, you/TSR got their moolah, albeit one time versus money for each person that goes thru the TSR booty section. See that lil pic up in the left hand corner of this site? Yeah.......it's happening. More people are realizing where to go, instead of paying.

CaptainJojoba, that question wasn't addressed at me, was it? Because I'm not an FA at TSR. Not affiliated with them in any way. So I couldn't really tell you.  :)

I don't think Peachfish is an FA.

I do have issues with a couple of things though - and will explain why I disagree.

1. If paysite creators are really so butthurt (Pescado's phrase) and really don't want their creations hosted elsewhere, and have tried to stop Pescado - then the easiest way to do that is to pull their payfiles.

If they don't want to do that they can hardly say they didn't know.  The next thing that NeptuneSuzy posts to TSR - she can hardly say that she didn't know it would be posted somewhere else, can she - and depending on how long she's been a member, she's been giving tacit consent to this for ages.

2.  Creators often assume that they will have control - Enayla, a professional digital artist didn't know - which means that TSR breaks the mould with the usual conditions.  Thank goodness Enayla was warned before she put more than a couple of walls there.

3. Until it goes to court EA's word is law and you can ignore it but that doesn't make you right.



And offend every single free creator who meshes by minimising their hard work - that's hardly an effective argument, and that's why it's not used.  Free creators often get buoyed by the thanks they get - and if they think they're undervalued, that's just nasty.

No, lol, it was addressed to NeptuneSuzy ;) Sorry for not making that clear Peachfish! *passes rum about*

LOL at keirra!  :lol:

Calalily, but I think it goes both ways. Why can’t a creator just stop making payfiles? Why can’t PMBD just stop uploading files that creators don’t want hosted here? Personally I think there is wrong-doing on both sides.

‘Assume they have control’. Well, yes, but that’s not really very smart, is it? It is possible to check these things before you start uploading. It’s like signing a rental lease assuming that you have a one month notice to cancel it and then finding out that it’s actually one year.  :?

What I meant was that EA’s word – and I suppose you mean the EULA – is open to interpretation. And the EULA is not law. It is a condition. Which can be overruled by real laws. I don’t think it is entirely clear how these things work together or against each other. Hence why I don't think the EULA argument is a convincing one.

I did not mean to offend anybody. I am a free creator. I move a lot of vertices around and I push a lot of buttons in SimPE. I was only trying to say that the fact that you know how to make custom content does not give you the right to profit financially from the entire community. But maybe I phrased that in an unfortunate way.  :)

ETA:
CaptainJojoba: Thanks! *takes a big swig* Now where's that eye patch of mine?

While certainly it is not a very strong argument, it does happen to be the ONLY argument with any legalism at all. The courts could make some kind of final decision, but ultimately, no one wishes to contest it in court, so that which is not forbidden remains legal.


Eh, people have gotten richer for less. That isn't even the point.

I am sure TSR would love people to believe that.  :evil:
If you download an item from the booty, ít is safe. If it ruins your game, it is just crap and will ruin your game anyway. A fact that will happen quite often when downloading TSR stuff.
The difference is only that if you download from the booty, you haven't paid for an item that ruined your game.

See, I just can't understand how hosting the files here is wrong.  It's illegal for paysites to charge.  It's not illegal for fans to share their creations.  Maybe I see too much in black and white, but honestly I just can't see the shades of grey here.

Thanks, I just don't know how to keep my mouth shut! LOL!  


CaptainJojoba and keirra... I actually answered that a couple of times on various boards, but people seemed to have missed it...   I pointed out that I'm not TSR's spokesperson, so I'm not going to get involved with discussions about their FA's. However, seeing as this has been posted all over PMBD for a long time now, I've been comfortable enough to say not all FA's get paid.... ;)   And Kierra,  Yikes! No please don't send me your first born!  *shivers :lol:


Hey, I know they're going to be uploaded here.... Didn I ever say that I didn't.  No.  I have said many times that I don't care where my files go .... my site... mts2.... tsr.... the exchange....PMBD.... or the moon!  You may be emotionally attached to your creations, but I'm not. However, I'm trying to point out that alot of creator's do care and these creator's are your peers, as peachfish said.... "hosting a creator’s work somewhere where they don’t want it to be hosted. To me that is wrong. Just as wrong as TSR refusing to take down a creator’s work if they ask for it. I guess it’s a question of respect. At least let us keep a minimum measure of control over what happens to our creations."



Thank you!  Although the idea of being a subversive entering the enemy camp was starting to sound like fun! heeeheee!
 :lol:

How much do YOU personally get paid?  You can do an average per month if that makes it easier on you to figure it out and tell us.

They won't stop making payfiles - they'll keep doing it, and as long as they keep doing it, PMBD won't stop.



No, it's like signing standard rental agreements over the course of your lifetime, and then finding out that the rental agreement you just signed is a lifelong tenancy that you can't get out of ever, and they take your furniture and sell it.



Until refuted, what EA says goes.  EULAs haven't been thrashed out in court, but that doesn't mean that just because they haven't you get to do what you like.  



I wasn't accusing you - but that argument would devalue free creators, and I don't think that's helpful or nice, and certainly doesn't make sense if we want an all free community.  :)

From Nouk:

http://www.noukiesims2.net/Piccies/AboutTools2.gif

*sits back with popcorn and rum waiting for Neptunesuzy's answer to missangelica's question*  :mrgreen:

You are dreaming - DREAMING!

It was already answered ... reread using some imagination and maybe you'll get the answer, if not then I'm sure someone else here got it and maybe they'll help you out.

:)

And BTW, I'm under no obligation to answer questions that you decide to toss at me. I'm just being a good sport, you could do that too!
:)

We're under no obligation to follow your rules for us - this is not your forum - Pescado makes the rules here.  

Personally I don't know why you still bother - you're not interested in actually answering questions about your shady dealings, and you don't want to acknowledge that clear indication has come from EA that you are the one in the wrong - not us.

Now, why don't you sit back, and wait for a post that says something you actually want to answer or tells you how good you are, and then you can reply and act as if none of them preceeding it existed.

Why do you keep mentioning that you've come here of your own free will?  Is that supposed to be something special?  Is PMBD really that hidden and unknown that posting here feels so damn wondrous and exhilirating?  Why do some people (differing viewpoint or not) feel like they're doing something special and different when they speak up around here?  It's just a forum and we're just people with real feelings too.  (Except JM.  I still don't really buy the evil guy talking like a baby thing, but it seems a little less loony now.)

But oh yeah, we're evil and mean and la-dee-fuckin'-dah.  We're really not people.  (Some posters here are ducks and parrots and slices of bread and Pokemon and axe murderers and skulls.  And someone looks like a very hairy coconut.  And someone used to be a panther.)  All some people see is a bunch of people who harass others and steal content--we have no regard for other people, have no understanding of the time and energy it takes to create something, and drink baby blood because we're nothing but stinking fucking thieves, right?  I know I'm dealing with people--do YOU know you're dealing with people too?

If I went into a community of cannibals, I sure as hell won't expect that just because I was "brave" enough to wander into their domain that they won't eat me.  Unless I had a damn good reason to be around the cannibals, I'm not going to try to come into their village or city and act like everything is going to go my way because I'm the MAIN CHARACTER, DAMN IT.

Actually I haveread over your replies and no, I didntsee you say
"I make XXX amount"
or
"I make no money"


so be plain, what do you make as income?? (http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/wavs/braveheart/Brave10b.wav)

Bullshit.  Just answer the question.

I really must do something about my icon before everyone starts calling me that girl whose a pokemon....

...There. Now its a pirate-poke.

Pika pika?

I really know nothing about pokemon, I jus' like the picture. It makes me smile inside.

Oh, I reckon that you must be keeping your imagination a hell of a lot busy, what with the struggle to read EA's statements in a way that doesn't make you turn out wrong...we, on other hand, don't do imagination much on the subject.

That means, you should really stop running in circles and just answer the question.

I think you're in for a long sit.

How do you know your pokemon is sick?
When it goes pika-CHOO!

Ok, back to shooting holes in Suzy's replies,lol.......

I prefer my joke:

How many CIA agents does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Two - one to screw it in, and the other to hold the terror suspect down.

Pescado, I guess different things make different people tick. The EULA argument doesn’t do anything for me. The morality issue does, though.



1. The legality of this issue isn’t that clear-cut. Go back and read Pescado’s last post and you should see the shades of grey.

2. Because – like I said – let us at least have a minimum measure of control of what happens to our creations. I am very well aware that once you put something on the internet you can not retain 100 percent control of where it goes. But at least don’t stick it in our face so blatantly that you don’t give a damn about our wishes. And that goes for TSR too.

NeptuneSuzy, it would help if you would just come out with a number. I don’t understand your answer to that particular question either. Some FA’s don’t get paid, I understand that, but does that mean you don’t get paid either?  :?



Yes. So what I find is wrong-doing on both sides, will continue on both sides. That's sad, I think.



Yes. And that is plain stupid. If you didn't even take the time to read the agreement before you signed it, don't come complaining to me about that.



For the third time: The EULA is not law. It is a condition or a terms of use, I think you'd call it in English. National laws - like laws on copyright and intellectual property - may most likely overrule that. I don't believe any of us can really say how those things interact. So the EULA argument doesn't really carry that much weight, IMO. See Pescado's last post. It just isn't a strong argument, which is all I'm trying to say.  :)

Oh, and EA/Maxis have for a long time been acceptant and even supporting of paysites, so if you want to refer to what ‘EA says’ you’ll have to take that into count too. Which is definitely what any court would do.


Again, I don’t think so. I don’t feel devalued by knowing or being told that what I create with all the free tools I’m given and all the free help I get all the time over at MTS2 it does not give me the right to charge anybody for what comes out of all that. Or maybe we’re just splitting hairs here. It is plainly morally wrong to charge for custom content and there are plenty of horrid examples of how some creators have abused their paypal button. That should be argument enough to turn people against paysites. :wink:



Uhm, I'm sorry to say this, but probably because some people here really do come off very evil and mean-spirited – (not talking about Pescado here. As much as he likes to be the evil bastard I’ve never seen one post from him that was just unfairly mean. There is always logic to his nastiness) – and that doesn't exactly work like an invitation to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion with the forum in general. I've stayed in lurkdom for a very long time, because, honestly, I didn't have the impression that you guys wanted to have a discussion at all, but preferred to stick to the slacking-off and ranting about various paysites. But NeptuneSuzy raised some good points and she got some very valid reactions to her posts, so I figured maybe you did want the discussion after all.

But, if I'm mistaken about that please do tell me as quickly as possible, because then I'll go back to lurkdom immediately.

Edited to delete typos.

Your thoughts?

And here I was thinking that we were getting too nice since a couple have said that we were.  I don't think people here are unnecessarily mean at all.

I wasn't saying that there shouldn't be any discussion.  If you have lurked long enough, you'll see that there has been a lot of discussion.  Pick any anti-PMBD thread and you're bound to see discussion there (with a smattering of insults, but people aren't going to lie).  Suzy isn't the first person to come here and present an argument, and she wasn't the first one to come here not screaming her head off.  I can only think of one other person who disagreed with what went on here and didn't come stomping in screaming at us, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others.

All I was saying is that people shouldn't have to preface their posts.  It doesn't matter if you have no prior posts and was only lurking for the past couple of months.  It doesn't matter if you've been here since the beginning and have three thousand posts.  It doesn't matter if you have a differing opinion or an identical one.  If you have something to say (new is preferred, but running in circles is good exercise), then just say it.  I don't like having, "At least I came here of my own free will, which is more than can said for other people" being repeated as though it were something special and different.

The "very evil" comment makes me laugh.  Yeah, we're very evil with our words of doom.  We're just as evil as those guys that have killed millions of their own people!  Pol Pot comes to mind.  Yes, we're as evil as Pol Pot.  Be very afraid.

Peachfish, obviously you haven't lurked enough to think we do not want to discuss the paysite issue.  Ignore the foolishness of the past month or so.  Make a lazy day out of skimming the threads larger than 20 pages to start with because that's where the main debating has gone on.  It will readily become apparent we have talked about this ad nauseam.

Morality is subjective.  Legal agreements are not. Don't like the EULA don't sign it - I signed it.



Anyone who says that just wants to be mealy mouthed about it - it's clear enough, and Nouk's recent emails from EA make it perfectly clear.  



She gets paid - she admitted as much on s2c.  She just won't say how much.



So what should we do - go back to being silent about it? Suck it up and shut up?  It's been this way for years because no one did a damn thing - all these people wringing their hands saying "oh the community used to be so sweet - there were no fake suicides or hissy fits" - there were also an increasing number of paysites, *but at least it was "nice"*.



Nobody is complaining to you.



No EULA is law for any game - none of them have been tested in court, and are unlikely to be, unless someone is suicidal and rich.  But until refuted by a court of law, anyone who doesn't abide by them are putting themselves at risk of prosecution.  Whether it carries much weight or not - you can't assert rights to EA file parts (which by the way are products of their intellectual property and they also have copyright on them - but you know, some bodgy bob who says so MUST have supreme rights) software until you prove that their agreement is a load of garbage in court.  



Nobody cares - they don't care - they're just like you and will say "well more fool them for being so foolish - you'd never catch me like that haha".



I offer odds of 10-1 that NeptuneSuzy replies to a similar phrase as this, and ignores everything else.  I pay only in love for the winner though.

Personally, I'm getting sick and tired of hearing "but but but.. the community!"

The community will be FINE.  Some will leave.  They will leave because they are mad that they can no longer sell their stuff, they will leave because something happens in their life and they no longer have time for TS2, they will leave because they lose interest.  New people will show up.  Someone else will hone their talent.  

People have been coming and going from this "community" for years.  For every well-known mod or admin on a well-known site, there are hundreds or thousands of people who don't bloody post.  

I think people are losing sight of the fact that this is a GAME.  It's supposed to be FUN.  If you're not enjoying it, or enjoying creating for it, then why in the bloody hell are you still doing it? For the internet fame? The money can't honestly be THAT good that you couldn't get a job doing something similar (and honest, even!) for a true paycheck.

Gah.

Oh, but it teaches poor morals to children.

Never mind parental responsibility, PMBD causes children to go bad and make them thieves and drink baby blood.

(http://angelica.forbidden-zodiac.com/phorums/128291511054183750ORLYYARL.jpg)

I just read your post and saw this at approximately the same time and I thought they fit.  Plus I just like it.

I don't get the control thing.  Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but if I download something from a paysite or I download the same thing from the Booty, what is the difference other than the money?  Everything in the Booty is credited to the creator.  Nothing is being resold.  Links to the site are included, and TOUs (I believe, not sure), which mean nothing if the EULA means nothing.  If the EULA doesn't protect EA, why would it somehow protect paysites?

If the creators of SimPE and CEP stated in their TOUs that it was forbidden for anything made with their 'tools and materials' to be sold in any way, would paysite owners have respected that?

This clinging to what amounts to, in intarwebz time, an antiquated notion of sites taking donations for bandwidth costs ( :roll: ) needs to lie down and die; that was years ago, when Maxis ran things and hosting costs weren't nearly as competitive as they are today.  Paysites are businesses anymore, plain and simple, and as such need to be held accountable for the quality of their merchandise and the treatment of their customers.  I'd love to see the tax forms that TSR owners fill out, if they even do.

As far as being listed on the official site - that list is old:  lots of links are dead and TSR was doing the free rotation thing when they were added, if memory serves.

There are too many paysites, ripping off people at will with shoddy product or bannings without 'evidence' or subscription refunds, with no supervision or authority to which they can be held accountable, and people are sick of it.  That's why people rush the Booty - there is no risk except having to delete something.

It's not about evil, it's not about rights, it's about fair play within a supposed community.

I've gotten Peggy and Rose's ToUs from the sets I downloaded, so if it's not available for all, then at the very least it's available for some.

I feel the same way.  As I have said - the booty is off-site file storage.  I am not redistributing it for a profit, I am not saying it is mine, I am just making it internationally accessible should I need it.   :wink:

Personally, I don't care how much TSR pays its artists.  It will never be close to how much Thomas keeps anyway.  If someone were to ask me what my salary was, I would say it was none of your business.  

But, pass the popcorn and hand out the rum...I'll just wait and see what happens next...

The legality of the issue may be "clear cut", but ultimately, "not illegal" functionally amounts to "legal", given that the system ultimately force-maps onto black and white.


As a matter of physical practicality, this is ultimately infeasible. Million, if not billions, have been invested in just such an endeavor. All of these efforts have proven to be entirely fruitless. Resistance is futile. The only winning move is not to play.


The truth is, nobody ever really has. People only care about such things as long as they are convenient, and when they become overly inconvenient, they are tossed aside. People are ultimately more willing to accomodate their friends than to slavishly adhere to the nebulous terms of a faceless individual on the Internets that have no legal backing anyway.


For various reasons, such activities are often seen as "dirty", making those engaging in them unwilling to mention any details. Certainly people don't seem to take PRIDE in how much they've managed to rip off TSR for their ultimately useless junk! I mean, heck, if TSR wante to pay ME for my crap, I'd be like "Sure, whatever.", and certainly wouldn't keep it a secret. I like money. I'm a career mercenary. I understand completely.


Actually, what isn't CLEARLY written out anywhere is that EA happens to also own the .package format. The GIF wars have demonstrated in the past that this likely holds a lot more weight than the EULA anyway. However, since EA cannot sensibly repudiate its own EULA, any usage explicitly permitted in EULA must therefore be valid. Regardless of whether a license for the .package format permits the selling of content, it ALSO thus permits free distribution of said content.


This is quite true. Paysites thus continue to exist alongside pirates. The status quo is maintained until such time EA wishes to take the matter to court. Since the status quo appears to suit them just fine, this is unlikely to happen.

*waves flag* Go Pescado!

Heh.

Well thank you for responding to my question Sue..even if you did not actually answer it.  You said that you have answered that question elsewhere but people seemed to have missed: how about you give a link so I dont miss it? And no, I was not asking you as a TSR spokesperson, I was asking you as a TSR FA and as a decent person who I thought would actually honestly answer it and not dodge around it...

In all honesty, I have had enough of this whole paysite debate. Its about time we actually got some facts about it - like how much they make and so on. But that just isnt going to happen...which makes paysites look very guilty

1. EA has responded to this argument.  You need to see Nouk's site and her conversation with them.  You can no longer deny that they are against paysites.  It is stated in black and white.  They have said it's illegal.  Let us remember they are the creators of Sims 2 and without them none of this would exist at all.  They have the ultimate decision over what people can and can't do with this game.

2.  Nobody here is really rubbing anyone's face in anything.  The files are nice and neat and organized in the booty.  Credit is given to every single creator along with a link to their site.  I wish all sites were this well organized.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I personally am not here to disrespect anyone.  I don't see a lot of that going on, to be honest.  I do not hate paysite owners.  I'm here because I recently discovered this argument, read both sides, read EA's response, and am now taking a rather small stand against paysites.  I will also continue to help myself to the booty as these items should be free in the first place, and I will do so 110% guilt free.  If that offends paysite owners, too bad.

Edited to say:

I had a long post about legality here, but it's not relevant.  Sorry.

Ok, listen the fuck up and shut the hell up while I'm talking.
One: when you clicked on the goddamn button to install the motherfucking game onto your piece of electronic shit, you agreed to a fucking contract to abide by the EULA. CONTRACT, children! Big legal world word. Learn what it means, I don't have time to tutor you on it.
Two: if you're an ignorant asshole that can't figure it out and need a short explanation, that means you can't profit from the shit they put into their game.


Hello! Wake the hell up and pull your head out of your ass! Figure it out that you are bound to abide by that contract! Don't want to? Uninstall the game, fuckweed! Jesus H. Christ! As explained by the esteemed Nouk, most of the content put into the package to go into our games already belongs to EA as it is! Creators rely on the coding found in the package files to get their design into the game. No coding, no entry. Simple as that. IF you can write code of your own that will enable the content to show up and IF it doesn't rely on what EA has put out, then you can call all of those lovely little pixel creations totally your own. I've seen a lot of work that is outstanding and have said so. I've seen a lot of work that is substandard shit and have said so. But I've never said that the content created stands alone and is capable of functioning without the code provided by the makers of the GAME. Get a grip! It's a fucking game, meant for enjoyment. People are trying to profit off of someone else's coding, knowledge, and effort. Yes, they put effort of their own into making the content. But for fuck's sake, get the point and realize that selling it is wrong! You agreed to a contract when you installed that fucking game onto your computer. By making a profit off of the content you have married to the package file format, you have broken the fucking contract. Fess up and get the hell over it, go your merry way and steal from your fellow gamers no more! I appreciate the custom content that makers put out, I really do. But I'm not about to thank them out of my goddamn pocket! If I did, I'd be just as guilty as they are. I'll get stuff packs and all that shit, because the company is the only one entitled to make a profit from the pixels. They hold the copyright. That's the thing, peoples. If you don't own the motherfucking copyright, you have no right to demand money for what is in those files. If you don't work for the company, you're fucked when it comes to getting money for what you're designing. Plus, you accepted the terms of the contract. Either way, you're fucked without even a kiss. You want money for what you do? Appy at EA for a job. Hell, you couldn't do worse than some of the folks already making content for our games. And maybe, just maybe, if you get on, you can put out content that we'll recognize and cheer to see... Damn, I need a fucking beer after all of that. It's as clear as the nose on Thomass's face that selling content is wrong. Would you sell a car that had been made with stolen parts and claim them as your own? Well, if you're selling custom content you're pretty much doing the same fucking thing. You can't get it into the game without the code invented by the eggheads at EA, it won't work without it. Gotta have the one to make the other work. It's kind of like selling your diary with work by someone else pasted in there to make it more interesting. Can't do it, kids. Now excuse me while I get off of my fucking soapbox and go have a goddamn smoke because this is bullshit. The paysites are fucking wrong for my reasons explained above and many more as yet unstated. Get a fucking clue...

Suzy you are brave to come and give your opinion here because while we do have some nice articulate people we also have some rude abrasive jackasses as well.  I for one don't particularly care what you make from TSR as I think of it as walking up to some random person on the street and asking them how much they make a year at whatever job they do.  Yes I realize some of you will or have done this but honestly if someone was to do such to me I would say it's none of your business how much I make.  Take or leave that question as you like.  If PMBD gave pay site creators a choice on if they're files were hosted here then many would say no I don't want you to host my stuff take it down.  Maxis should have been clearer on they're EULA when they stated products are not for commercial use.  Then again that is clear as day and you can translate it anyway you like and it still says the same damn thing.  Pay sites are wrong for charging money for it and any pay site that says "donation" and then gives a free gift is even more despicable.  I donate to several charities and several free sites and aside from a thank you note and maybe a tax break I get nothing.  In the Unites States it is ILLEGAL to ask for a donation without a valid Business ID and Tax number.  I was recently audited by the IRS and was told those Sims2 sites that I had "donated to" were not eligible for tax write-off since they were not LEGAL Businesses.  I now require a tax id number to be put on the receipt when I donate to ANY site.  By the way that did include Rose and Peggy and they are not listed as legal businesses in ANY country.  So what TSR, Rose, Peggy, and the rest of the folks listed on the booty are doing is Illegal in the U.S and since I live in the U.S and Electronics Arts runs its Sims2 servers in the US then you have to abide by US law and they are not and that is what matters to me.  

Um...you're not addressing me, are you, Paden?

I'm having a little continuity problem here.

I think Paden meant it for everyone DW(I'm not sure what to call you diet and worms is just not seeming right.)  that thinks pay sites are legal.  

To Paden: Gods I adore your fire!  Wish I knew you in real we'd either get along famously or hate each other either way it would be entertaining.

Well said Paden........

Arr......Shiskabob the paysites............

*someone want to get a valium for paden? Think he's on the verge of a stroke after typing that*

Um, Bionix, I'm female... and I don't want the valium, it's just that after constantly explaining where we are coming from, and being nice and reasonable to start with then being ignored, I kind of lost my cool. I've got fire when I know people are doing things that aren't legal and refuse to see past their own damn noses. I will say it again: to get your content into the game, you must marry it to the code written and provided by EA, which makes up a good three-fourths of the bulk of said file. Without it, you just have a nice collection of pixels that you can admire but not use in any practicle way, unless you revamp it for some other game or program. That said, you are using EA's materials and must, MUST, abide by the contract you entered into when you installed that game on your computer. Don't like it or want to accept that contract? Easy, delete the damn game and exit the Sims 2 fascination. Simple as that.

ETA: I hate fucking typos!! And I put the wrong fraction in.... Sorry Nouk, I almost fuggered up the info that you so thoughtfully supplied to us!

Sorry for the sex mix-up :oops:

I don't examine every thread and profile here. I can understand why you went off......probably had several veins bulging out when you typed that. You need to save that reply and use it as email filler for other PSOB's (Paysite Sons a-bitches) when they start up like Suzy did here.

Ohh boy.  What went on here while I was gone?  What's-his/her-face has deleted their post so I have no idea what they said.  

*Reminds herself never to make Paden angry.. never ever.. and applauds her at the same time because, quite frankly, it needed to be said.*

(Edited to add I just went back to see it wasn't one post.  Just a whole lot of people denying their illegal activities over and over again.  It does get quite frustrating, considering how obvious it really is that what they are doing is just plain wrong.)

I so enjoy this thread!  :lol:  My new heroes are Calalily and Paden for their excellent posts. And Ensign EO for making me laugh my ass off the chair.

I think the latest response by EA to Nouk is making everything clear. It can't be more clear than that except for real court business. Time to wake up, paysites!

Yes, in the situation you have given such a question is inappropriate.  However, that money in question would be legitimately gained unlike this.  Her further resistance in answering the question speaks volumes to me.  Any numerical answer would of been accepted.  She knows how wrong she is, despite how much lip service she'll continue to give.  She came here on an agenda and failed miserably.

I hope for every penny she gets illegally from TSR that she feel the weight of guilt and shame.  

As for your jackasses comment, that was unnecessary.  You're acting as bad as those you feel so strongly against.  Again as I told you in the ol' mama hecubus thread, if you truly feel that way, leave.  Save us your bitching.

Well, hell. Since when is that a bad thing? OMGLOLWTFBBQPWNT on the internet. Thanks for playing...drive thru...


Edited to add:

As the Pescado stated previously to Neptune's miff about flames to 'innocent' people; the behavior of harassment is not considered to be fun nor condoned. As hypocritical as it sounds coming from myself -- we do have honor.  I would like to propose that not all people whom flame a paysite creators guestbook/PM inbox are pirates from The Site That Must Not Be Named! There are independent trolls on the Net afterall that like to pretend they are contributing to the paysite controversy on their own by committing random acts of stupidity.

In which case I say to those particular people --> GTFO. YOU FAIL!

Thanks for your post, AnneBonny.  I think you responded to that particular issue very well.  

When people post a recanting of their antics here, like the one 11 (12) year old who spammed up the TSR forums, they typically get told that it's ineffective and dumb.  

We don't control what people do.  Stop blaming us for it.

I agree with you on this one, but I will still stand by the fact it's her choice to name a dollar sign or not.  Antagonizing her over and over again about said money is just redundant.  



How am I acting as bad as those I feel so strongly against?  The fact that you take my comments as bitching prove my point of inability to clearly set the mood for what you are typing.  Now get the stick out of your ass and grow up!  :roll:  The fact several threads have called YOU out of line is damning enough.  Yes you are a pirate here's your damn gold star for the day.  You treat people on this forum like they owe you something and they don't.  The fact that Hecubus even brought up that thread might have told you that you might be a little nicer when telling people what to do and not be so damn shocked when they tell you to go fuck off.  

Now, back on topic.  

I don't think we'll see Neptune Suzy anymore, the few odd people stopped complimenting her "pleasant" demeanor and she still won't answer the obvious questions.  What a loss.  :roll:

Paden.....very errr nicely put!  I had to go smoke too after reading it!   I may even have to have a marguarita just to go back and experience it again.

I didn't understand the whole "package" thing because I am not a creator. I assumed that SimPe created a different type of file, but I have since learned that is not correct.  So for some of us who don't do a lot with the actually files other than put them in our download folder, I think this has been extremely helpful to understand.

*sending a case of rum to Paden cause she really deserves/needs it*

Leilatigress, you're a funny lady.  Check your PM's for my response if you care to read it.

Armywife:  Would it help for people like you, non-creators, to see and have explained what exactly is in a package file to see what the big fuss is and for your personal education?

Technically, there's no particular rule anywhere against TSR paying anyone anything they wish, seeing as the people involved technically are not selling EA content, but the labor involved in creating said content. Even non-profit organizations have paid employees. In fact, the creators involved do not even necessarily work with packages themselves. A creator can be paid solely for the production of meshes and textures, which is entirely legal.

The only problem there JM, is the argument that is used is:
 "we need the money for the bandwidth...sob sob"

If the sites actually came out and said:
"we really dont need the money, but we're greedy and you are a sucker to pay"
or
"the money doesnt go to JUST pay the bandwidth but a couple of hundred goes to this person, a couple of hundred to that person..."
or
"we are raking in a ton of dough and you sucker kids are paying for my BMW"

I think a lot more people would be upset.  But I think there are enough sheep that actually believe...really believe...that its just to cover bandwidth; and we know that is a lie.

Responding to Pescado's Post:
They're not selling EA content?  What happened to 75%+ of the packages they make being EA's?  Does NeptuneSuzy put her creations into packages or not?  I feel like you have information I don't so please enlighten me.

From what I understand of how TSR works, it's like she's on commission rather than a regular employee.   NeptuneSuzy is a creator who gets paid per a set number downloads (10,000?), not a mod of the TSR forum who simply works there so while I see the parallel to your analogy, I don't think it entirely fits.  

And you're right that they could be paid for the meshes and textures only and it would be legal.  I'll concede my statement was based more on what I feel is right than what would hold up in court.

Armywife:  Would it help for people like you, non-creators, to see and have explained what exactly is in a package file to see what the big fuss is and for your personal education?[/quote]

I have actually been given the information.  But, for others it might be useful.  I think, just from my perspective, that the file type was the confusing issue due to references made about how the file goes into the game as a package file.  Since I pm'ed someone and asked, it was very helpful to understand what the difference is to further educate what exactly EA "owns" and doesn't.  So, I say...post on!

:roll:

From this non-creator to missangelica:  Sure, when you stop being an uptight condescending tardspider and get the know-it-all stick out of your ass.  

All's I know about packages is they contain a bunch of 0's and 1's, that's what they boil down to.

Armywife:  I'll see what I can do. :)

FartyJuan:  Don't believe the hype and actually form your own opinion, if you are actually someone else that is.  (Leilatigress in disguise?)  Send all further hate mail to my inbox and leave it out of this thread.  Thanks.

Oh, Miss Twuntentacles, you really believe that anyone who thinks you're being a gaping asshole is just "following the crowd".  And that I'm Leilatigress' sockpuppet?  My usual username is of a New World species of  genus Panthera.  

Nah.  I think some Fiberall and a high colonic with the water pressure at 180gpm will dislodge that sideways bargepole that seems to be giving you a case of the grouchybat snides.

What was this thread about again?[/i]

Can you keep your personal beef with Angelica off the thread?  Take it to Sharkbait or PM.  I don't know why you feel you have to express your hate of her in public.

I don't hate, it's called irritation.

It's mildly amusing but they have to realize it's only making themselves look bad by acting 12.  It's also an act of futility because it won't make me stop posting here.  

I wonder if they have the ability to channel such animosity in my direction then what's going on with the rest of their life and why aren't they dealing what that instead of venting at me.  However, the same question could be posed for the rest of us that are so angry at those big bad paysite owners.  

Anyway, they can feel free to treat me as their punching bag through PM's but I'll ask again for them to be left out of this thread.  Even with NeptuneSuzy dogging questions left and right, there was some good discussion going on.

Nothing. Once she puts her work into a package, she forfeits the ability to stop us from distributing it freely. Nothing, however, says TSR cannot pay her to create the content that goes into those packages. And why would you really care how TSR wastes its money, anyway?

It's kind of like a train wreck.  No one (normal) likes the idea of them but they can't help but slow down to look at the carnage.  It would fill my curiosity how much one average FA gets then it's the game of multiplying it out for the rest of the FA's to get a better estimate how much of a clusterfuck TSR really is.

With that knowledge I can scream and hold my head down in shame for contributing to it twice and lament on how stupid I was.

TSR pays for the packages as a whole. Not just some meshfiles with nothing in it and not ready to work in the game.

Yeh.. :roll:

Shame. I was waiting for her to answer my question...

Bah humbug.

I'm sure there are plenty of loopholes covering that one, too, but ultimately it is irrelevant to our goals. In fact, this mode of operation actually favors us, since if we actually cut out their revenue stream from under them, they are then essentially being raped from both ends at once. Win/win, as far as I'm concerned.

Hows it rape if you're not doing anything illegal anyway  8)

This link was posted over in the S2C thread:

http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=makeallfastuffpayki4.jpg

She is apparently dishonest to say the least. I thought paden was too hard on her until I saw that.

Here's the link to the discussion at MTS2 where she explains how conflicted she is about her items being pay.  :roll:

http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=44387&page=1&pp=25

Now that is interesting.  I wish I could see the rest of that TSR thread.

Yeah I just saw that at S2C and was about to post it here too...

I guess that is from the private FA area  :roll: Heh.

NeptuneSuzy has a lot to answer for...

eta:

I am actually really disappointed and disgusted at her now. It is just...unbelievable... to spout over at S2C and here about respect and she has been blantly lieing to everyone.  :evil:

Damn you're quick.  You beat me to it.  I thought that was very interesting as well.  Thanks Disenchanted for posting.....

Wow. Just wow.
I hate liars.

 :x  Oh, Whore. I call take back on everything I said about her sticking it out. It's just lurvely to find out she had a hand in helping good ole Thom-ass decide to make all FA content pay. I feel sorry for people who buy your crap now. Poor sheeple to have such a fake bitch released into their world.


Have a Nice day  :D

She seems to be popping in and out at the thread over there. I can't imagine what she can say now. It could get interesting. I hope it doesn't get so nasty that the mods close the thread. I think her dishonesty speaks for itself.

Quote from Neptune Suzy. December 5th, 2006.


"Just a thought, why not make ALL FA content subscriber only? With just maybe one or 2 free samples as bait. Also there are so many pay sites out there now that I think if too much FA content is free at TSR then downloaders will spend their money at another site."

Aiming for TSR employee of the month there, bitch?

You know Sue, about a week after finding this site I cancelled my subscription to TSR.

I've arrived in this thread a little late and just finished reading it, and I think everyone's said what I want to say, and I agree with 99.9% of everything Angie has said, stick up ass or no, and she managed to say it better than I could. Same with Panthergal and Pescadette-Lily.



I also looked at the picture from TSR and my goddess! What a sneak!


(Nice to see the "explain ambassador to me" after this thread. ;))

Hey! That's not an approved nickname!

By the way, if Domingo Dan is reading this - maybe he's a lurker - dude - you absolutely rock! You have my eternal worship, and love - even if you are a TSR insider.

Yes indeed, I failed to fully link and credit him: Domingo Dan who with one fell swoop exposed the hypocrisy.

Well she might not answer at all.. :roll: There isnt much she can say that will wash with anyone. But if she choses the low route, she will say that the pic is fake...or she said that for the good of the community or some shit like that

And T to the Chan, stop trying to rename my wench! She is called Calalily damn it  :wink:

You gave link details - you were hardly trying to take the credit yourself redisenchanted.  :D

The rename is courtesy of my husband (see the should I change my avi thread in sharkbait).  I have not told him of our illicit love, CaptainJojoba.

Just read that thread and it all makes sense now! Pescadette - LOL!  :lol: So you have all the qualities that Pescado have? Beard and all?!

And NeptuneSuzy is staying pretty quiet at S2C so far.  :roll: Well she's got two options really - deny it, or dont deny it. Or she can run away...which just speaks for itself really.

I am very very disappointed in her. I actually almost believed that she was an honest person...blerg, lies lies lies!

I have to say I am not just a little saddened. Even though Suzy had a different view, I was ready to give her some credit for actually discussing things. And I believed her when she said she was against pay items. Sheesh, I am gullable. I am not making the same mistake again. Down with the decievers!  :evil:

I'm betting on ignore it and post again when someone else has changed the subject.

ETA: Her reply on S2C (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=953851&postcount=303)



My thoughts. If they ask for advice about something you claim not to agree with you can go with your principles keep quiet and not give them any. That simple.


Honestly I don't think there are enough of these  :roll:  in the world to express how I feel about the latest revelations.

And Domingo Dan if you're lurking here is there anything else we'd find interesting on the FA's private board?

Well, that was surprising. Ok maybe not.
(to think I spent so much time yelling at that creature... tj tj tj)
Seems some FA does not likey like Neptune Suzy  :shock:

Neptune Suzy's brilliant rejoinder.



 :roll:  * 10,000

Translation: You are all idiots and if I keep talking in circles, I can swim out of this.

She just dodged around it. Well if people keep on repeating it to her then she has to answer in the end...

(RE the screenie) She made the choice to say that, so she can damn well accept the consequence and explain it.

Isnt it amazing how she has been posting in that subforum for ages (30+ posts I'd say) and every word of it was utter bullshit??... :roll: I actually *wanted* her to have to been telling the truth. Dont think there is a word to describer how utterly disappointed at her I am

Translation: I am now searching for all your yugi-ohz fanfiction and shall post it everywhere!

*Deletes fanfiction account*

"And if we're all going to play the game of posting past comments then everybody better start taking cover.... everyone form the biggest paysite and the smallest paysite to the biggest free site and the smallest free site........ and all of the creators and players in between."

If she has the time to do that, to read every single player's posts on every single forum, I worry for her.  If she asks Thomass to do it for her and they make it this collective effort, then it's just more reason to hate TSR.  It also seems she went the route of "It's from last year and doesn't count!"

It's funny to me that she ignores the harassment from the paysite side of things.  Remember "the truth" being spammed around to bring down s2c and mts2?  Remember the gathering up of private information from people who paid and sharing it in a forum only paysite owners could access?  Remember sending people to troll here?  Oh, how conveniently it is forgotten.  :roll: Neither side has "clean" hands.

Also, she doesn't care where her files go, even to the moon as she said, but she's still anti-fileshare..  Oh, and she doesn't care about the money but is still on the payroll.. that's cute. :roll:

All in all, she makes it clear she's only interested in herself and her ability to keep the money rolling in.  I actually don't mind it from that perspective as it is human nature.  It's nice to hear someone say it that way instead of spouting off about the community, their "hard" work, ungrateful people, those bad pirates.. blah blah blah

More recent than that, she was pretty much supporting and applauding the personal attacks and foaming at the mouth of crocobaura in all the paysit threads.  That's pretty much how it was determined that for NeptuneSuzy that respect means "do what I say is right or I'll brand you as a meanie."  She knows nothing of respect and is quite the hypocrite.

So busted.

Looks like Domingo Dan scored a direct hit. She ain't all grins and giggles anymore.  

Hmmmm, now that she's failed on her mission to frame the debate in terms agreeable to paysites (free content=harassment), I wonder if Thomas will push a button under his desk and make her fall through a trapdoor. One can only hope.

Indeed. Someone will take a shot for sure. Or already has.

(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2593/kittenyg3.jpg)

"The debate is tearing apart the community!" arguement? My ass. Oh yeah, you really care about the community Neptune Suzy. Bloody hell. That one conversation is enough to make TSR teh evil!!
I wonder what the TSR sheeple would think if they saw this...?

This is off topic but let me say something: How come you all just didn't use the same name over here that you use at S2C? I can pick all of you out like it's nothing. (Cept Calalily, Nouk, and Slayer who have the same names). I keep forgetting that this isn't SFV and we aren't trying to hide our identities.

 :lol:

Because I use a lot of usernames already.  I'm not trying to hide my identity.  I use the same avatar.  People who know me from the forum where "EO" originated would probably ask if I was the same person--if they didn't recognise my photo.

I'm not important enough--even if I was Padlock (or Ensign, or Ephraim) at MATY, here, and S2C, it wouldn't matter.  They don't really care who I am, and I'm sure they don't really care who most of the people here are either.

Because my name on S2C sucks big time. If I could change it there, I would. And't it's not like it's a secret who I am, I have almost the same signature on S2C and I had the same avatar for quite some time aswell. :P

Edit: oh, in case you in fact have missed it, I am digital_hannah on S2C and MTS2.

I use this name at SFV, Simbella and most other sims forums and at a Harry Potter forum too - the only place I have a different username is things I signed up to ages ago - like TSR.

I'm basically not afraid of being banned, and haven't been anywhere yet - even Simbellas - that kinda surprised me.

As for worrying about being banned from paysites - I rarely go there, and am not looking to have a credit card any time soon.

Anyway, I don't think the mods at s2c are likely to be so petty as just to ban me on membership elsewhere.  They're reasonable people, even if they don't always agree with my point of view - and they're certainly not vindictive.

Well, I'm mean and vindictive, but kept on a short leash.  And no, you wouldn't get banned on S2C for using the same username here, or on SFV.  Linking to here used to be against the rules on S2C, but isn't anymore.  Ya'll pirates are cuter and cuddlier than you initially seem.

I resent being called reasonable, though.

Alright - I respect you - you mean, vindictive bitch.  :lol: Now we can be friends  8)

I fail at hiding my identity. Every name I have everywhere has some form of red or love or I'm just NiiNii in my name. SFV: LovesRed Here: RedLove mts2 and S2C: Roses123

Everywhere else: NiiNii

HP, if you had a cult, I'd join  :D You are a mean and vindictive bitch, and I love it hun!

I am so not good at making up names/nicks. But I guess I took step up from digital_hannah when I became navigator. Arr!  :D

Well when I joined over here in Nov, 06. I was afraid of being banned at S2C or MTS2. But for those who haven't figured it out, I'm jmtmom over there. It would make a pretty lame pirate name though.

In fact, it makes a pretty lame username anywhere.

I'm not cuddly. I have an axe!

BTW, PM me over on S2C if you want a name change.  I make no guarantees, as name changes are granted based on whim and whether I like you - but you don't have to hide.


Psh, only now?  We weren't before?  DID LAST NIGHT MEAN NOTHING TO YOU?!   :cry:


Awww, your nose feels so nice up my asscrack.  Please remember to swipe your Visa card when you're done down there.  ;)


Awww, nigglesnush.   *pinches Heccie's cheekies*

OMG - I never would have realised - I am blown away. Well you are doubly cool - I like both your personas. :D



Nothing baby - I do them and leave them - but we can still be friends :obsceneemoticontheyhaveats2candnothere:

We practice tough love around here...It's a warming kick in the butt!  8)

btw, since we are talking about names, would you guys be overly disappointed in me if I changed name again? It would be the same here and on S2C though...  :wink:

 :shock:

You are no longer by wench Calalily! Going off with HP, how rude! even though I did the same thing but thats besides the point mwuah hahahaha  :wink:

...Oh I love our off topicness  :lol: Derailment ftw!

 :cry: Always the same - I become a wench and there's double standards  :!:

I left her for you - FOR YOU.  The hottest peice I've had in a while - all for nothing!

http://forums.sims2community.com/member.php?u=104562

NeptuneSuzy's boss dropped into s2c today - I saw Atwa in the paysites thread reading where NS pooped it - and probably trying to find out who DomingoDan is.  :lol: She's not there now, but you can see her last visit at least.

*Where is the treachery afoot cat picture when I need it.*

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/Not_You/Treachery29.jpg)
When I saw Atwa was lurking at the thread, I lol'd.

Oh the LOLZ. The lolz people!  :lol:

NeptuneSuzy, I am disappointed in you. We dealt with your coming here to talk with us in good faith, and you turn around and lie to us. With a straight face, probably. Good God! It takes balls of brass to do shit like that, specially when you ought to be aware that being who we are, we have informational sources you'd never be aware of. You're sad. Sad, sad, sad. Talented, but sad. I just hope that you donate every scrap of what you make to your church's offering basket every Sunday, because that's the only way that money won't bring you sadness. You took EA code and sold it as your own, therefore, you stole it. I won't harrass you, I outgrew that in my teens with pranks such as setting a paper bag of dogshit on fire, tossing it onto a porch and ringing the doorbell then running away. But, what you've done by coming here and blatantly lying to us stinks just as bad as that burning dogshit ever did. I doubt you'll have the courage it takes to come here again, so some may think my words are wasted. But the only words that are wasted are the ones that are never used.

Damn Paden - I have been waiting to see your response.  I already had a beer and a smoke lined up.  I can deal with differing opinions, but not outright lies and manipulation.  We are not ALL 12 years old and gullible.  

NS - When you talk out of both sides of your mouth - you end up in a pool of spit.   :evil:

The thread at S2C is gone.....any idea why?

I'm stupid....forgive me?  Pass the rum

Which one?  They all seem to still be there.

Edit: Extra "be".

No it's still there.

Paden thanks for  putting us back on topic <3

On the username thing, I'm Jersey Princess everywhere except s2c/SFV/TS2 roleplaying site (sapphireXclaws) and TSR (some variation of "princess" and many "x"es--not that I pay so I could feasibly tell you, but then I'd get my friend in to trouble as I use her pay account, so I won't). I have a different u/n at s2c because I refused to get an account for two years and recently relented, meaning I didn't want to use my old u/n.

@Armywife: I'm looking at it, so it can't surely be gone. :?

@Pescadette-Lily: Naaaah. I retain the right to call you so. ;)

Armywife, yeah, I could have gone with calling her a no-good, backstabbing lying cunt that only talks when she's got constipation of the brain and diarrhea  of the mouth, but would that have served much aside from making us all feel better? I mean, I really could have called into question her morals for making stuff for a site that brings in the foolish and gullible by being a pixel whore, but really... And I could have called her a thieving, lying two-faced Thomass kisser, as well as anything else I chose to use. Instead, I will refer to her as a lowborn gutterslut. (Bless you, Judge Roy Bean)

*Note to self: DO NOT drink liquid when reading Paden's posts.  Computers are sensitive to spews of liquid*

I'd like to know wich FA is Domingo Dan. :)
So, obviously, don't post it here, but pm me, if you are him/her. :P

I thought I was the only one who didn't know who that is :lol:

Delphy said he's seen it before and it's an old screenshot--it's possible Domingo saw it before as well and saved it, then whipped it out when he caught wind of the debate.  Though if he was an FA that'd be awesome and I would love to see more screenshots pls.

Damn, an FA would be much more sexy.

Omg! :shock:  I actually recognize that name from a Lucky Luke comic book.  :lol:  Who said you never learn anything from those things? *hands out rum*

Nouk if you find out can you pass it along? If there is anything to find out. Who else would be able to take that if not an FA?

Where does a girl have to go to get a name change?! :x

Well, dear, I got the quote from a movie that I used to watch with my dad when I was in my teens, called "The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean" and it starred Paul Newman as the unflaggingly determined and stubborn Judge Roy Bean. It is hilarious and kind of touching, but the part I remember best is when he is forced (HA!) by the town's menfolk into apologizing to their wives, who used to be prostitutes, by the way. He winds up his apology with the line, "I could have called you low-born gutter sluts, but instead I called you prostitutes, and for that, I truly apologize." Or something to that effect. I still use that line today when some freak bitch pisses me off and I have to be rather polite in front of others, so I just call them a low-born gutter slut and leave it at that.

"Who else would be able to take that if not an FA?"

"Delphy said he's seen it before and it's an old screenshot--it's possible Domingo saw it before as well and saved it, then whipped it out when he caught wind of the debate."

Domingo may not be an FA, but the person who took the picture would be.  Just because he gave the link doesn't mean he created it.

"I'm stupid....forgive me?"

No!  Never!  I hate you!  Forever!

*stomps off and slams the door*

Aww no no Ensign I forgive you! Truly I do!  :lol:   8) OOOOO TURN AROUND!

Anyway...  :roll: Dan might know who did take screenies so maybe he could tell us that.

Methinks the singing monkey stole the Ensign's rum, too.... cheeky lil bastard better be caught or we're all screwed...

I have nothing to do with FartyJuan and have no reason to hide behind more then 1 identity.  I am leilatigress on most if not all forums, though my avi changes from forum to forum.  

*passes missangelica some rum* take or toss it up to you.  

ah where was I? ah yes... I'll agree with Paden on Suzy and since she said it far better then I ever could I will not enter any more thought on the double talk.  

Oh yes, info for you lovely folks. Sims2Contest has a little thread on this topic as well.  Shortyboo, one of the lovely gals that creates  for a couple of sites (Simchic, Glamsim) and another that I cannot thing of posted this
Anyway, obviously I'm not against paysites, especially since I've worked for several of them. But I can say that there isn't huge money in paysites. Well, I don't know about a few sites like TSR, Peggy and Rose, I'm sure they don't make tons, but most paysites don't make much more than enough to cover the bandwith costs. When I worked at GlamSim I didn't get paid at all and even with Sim Chic and the sites I'm at now I'm not making huge money. Right now, I'm only getting about $186 a month, and that's from three sites.

now I know it ain't TSR but that gives you a ball park on at least one creator.  Nother tidbit from the same thread a few posts down
Janelle posted this-  starting at 300/month, and rising from there depending on the popularity of the creator, what they create, and whether or not they can mesh. Now that statement is for a TSR Featured Artist.

My question to Neptune Suzy should she choose to answer it.
Is $300 about how much a Featured Artist can make?  

Thread for reference purposes:
http://z12.invisionfree.com/simscontest/index.php?showtopic=3508&st=15

There is a bar called Judge Roy Beans in Fairhope Alabama that looks like an old shack but is the coolest place with an outdoor sand volley ball court and little sayings every where very similiar to the movie.  

Ensign....are you stomping out on me again?  Damn

ummm, why are we so keen to out the FA that leaked the screenshot that busted sweet li'l Suzy?

That would end further juicy revelations. A heart-felt thanks to our hero is enough I think.

I just wanna know because I'm nosy.

Yes, I'm stomping out.  And slamming doors.  That makes it much more final.

[Quote from thread linked by Leila]
"I honestly couldn't live without so many pay creators like Peggy,Raon,Rose Sims 2,Chaz."

Wtf, Chaz?

It also worries me that this person is apparently going to commit suicide or just drop dead if any of those creators ever left the scene.

[Another quote]
"If paysites aren't allowed anymore, I'll be in big trouble. But I'm really not worried about it because if Maxis really didn't want paysites, they would have stopped it long ago, like back in the Sims 1 days."

What, she doesn't have a job?  (Of course she doesn't.)  And someone should inform her of what happened to MAXIS.  :wink:

I don't really care who took the screenshot, but I definitely wouldn't object to knowing.  :lol:  That'd be a lot of PMs to send out, though.

Reading that other forum made me laugh too.  Chaz? Seriously? I don't understand that at all. His pics look like crap, so, it's no surprise that in game they are fug.
I like cc and all, even pay cc, but, I know I don't feel as desperate as the posters on that forum do.  :lol:

Chaz hair looks like shit in game.  Pics on the site are great....but very misleading.

Has anyone asked the question of Pes?  Did our FA guest visit the booty? That would make my fucking day.

*sniff* *Ensign slams doors* *Sits in corner drinking rum to hide the pain*

double post - not my day

Armywife, you think Chaz's pics are nice? I disagree. I think they are fug.

Ok.  Maybe I should explain.  When I first started downloading cc, I wanted some of the hair by Chaz that I saw on TSR.  It looked really great to me since I knew nothing about animation and binning at the time, compared to the same ole' maxis hair.  However, once I downloaded it and saw it in the game, I was pissed because it looked nowhere near as good.  I haven't even bothered to look at anything else he does after that.  So, maybe that will help to understand that I was not familiar with other sites and downloads.  

I probably should have explained more.

I called Paypal about this, I like to call people so I can know I am talking to a live person. Anyway I called them when I first heard this because I had donated to Rose in the past. They told me, they do not give your banking information to any store you purchase from; ever. It is against the law, they would loose banking/credit card privileges. The only thing they forward on to the store is your receipt number and your email address. They don't give them your IP or ISP, nothing just those two things. It's all they have ever given them. They said if the site is logging ISP's or IP's that has nothing to do with them. If they are placing codes in their files and creating a log to know who has downloaded what...That also has nothing to do with them. If they are placing spyware in their files to track them, let them know it's in violation of not only Paypal, but in order to take any credit card purchases. They will loose paypal and credit card privileges, from Visa, Master Card, and Discover.

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?p=2163#2163
http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?t=58

I guess, think of an  ebook, I could buy a Steven King e-novel, I own the novel but King still owns the copyright. I can't make 100,000 copies and give them away to my neighbors.... if I had 100,000 neighbors! LOL!.[/quote]


I think the point your missing and a lot of other paysites seem to miss is the fact that you gave up your right to copyright the minute you agreed to the terms of EA's contract.

You did click on I agree, did you not? Some people don't realize all it takes is that one time. Doesn't matter how many times you uninstall and reinstall the game, and it didn't make you do it the second or third time. That initial install it is there. That contract is then stored on your PC forever. Just do a new install on a PC it's never been installed before on. I just installed the base game on my grand-daughters new PC and it's the same as when you purchase the downloadable game. Word for word. It plainly states in layman's terms that you agree anything created for, uploaded to the game becomes the "SOLE" property of EA. By contract, not by copyright or trademark; contact. You are treated no different in a court of law than a ghost artist, so no you would not win. EA would.

You know like the oral contract you gave to TSR that they could store your stuff forever? What makes that contract anymore viable or worthy than the contract you agreed to with EA not to sell anything you create for the game?

All EA has to do is a feasibility study and show profits from initial release to now, if there are any flucuations that show profit loss they could sue for millions for copyright infringement? Trademark infringement? NO and they won't. Those are set fines/penatlies. They have to send cease orders, give people time to comply, etc. They will sue for violation of contract. No warning at all, just see you in court.

And not to bust anyone's bubbles here I was also told that EA is considering licensing agreements with other reputible companies for the Sims 3. Not with any Paysite that exists now. They know they are taking Maxis meshes renaming and selling them, or altering them a little and then selling them with their recolors/retextures. They are aware that several employee's that work for the EA website are also working for these paysites and are investigating them. EA is aware of all the bans, all the paid for items never received, etc... I was told they are now collecting evidence, that doesn't sound like they plan on doing nothing. They have legal depts in over 25 countries.

And believe it or not they are also aware that TSR has not created more fans, it has disenchanted more fans than it has ever gained for EA. So EA and their legal dept are not as stupid as people think they are.

If the Sims 3 comes without the ability to create CC you can thank your friendly paysite for violating the contract they made with EA. Which is also why EA will never do anything to Sims File Vault or PMBD, they are not in violation of the contract they agreed too.

*raises right eyebrow* Fascinating. No, I'm not being sarcastic! I mean that. I'm just wondering how in the hell you managed to get this information? Where did you dig to find it? I honestly want to know more. And it would really suck if cc can't be made for Sims 3, but if that happens, well to tell the truth I don't know if I'd be able to afford it anyhow so would probably have to stick to what I'm playing with now. *turns and yells at erd, btg, Hecubus and NiiNii* Get your mind out of the gutter, it's not what you're thinking! Gah! *turns back to Hawk Girl* Seriously, though, I wonder if any of the paysites have had word about this and if so, what in the hell are they gonna do to cover their asses?

Well, it's the first I've ever heard the "no more CC in TS3" being blamed on the paysites instead of the pirates, so kudos for that.  :wink:

I know I wouldn't enjoy sims 2 without the custom content. I spend more time searching and downloading the content to make sims and build/decorate houses than actually playing. The same goes for sims 1. Unless something miraculous happens, I doubt I'd play sims 3 without custom content. I'd still probably buy it to see what it's all about though.

I won't buy Sims 3 if there's no custom content. That's the whole fun of the game for me since Sims 1. I will be very surprised if they take that route. Either people will get bored and quit playing or they'll find a way to make custom content anyway.

This game cuts such a swath across ages and skillsets, there's bound to be someone or some group that cannot resist filling the CC creation niches.  T-Mog, SimPE, _______.

I still want to know if Suzy got some of the booty?

Hawkgirl, Paypal gave you some bad info. In dealing with both an online store front and individual transactions, you get way more than a recipt number and your email address. I can get full address, full name, email address... the only thing they were correct on was banking information. Now some know how to work the Paypal system, but I don't know how. When you sign up for paypal, in order to get the account confirmed, you have to link it to your true bank account and/or a credit card. Now Paypal can not give that information out, but they do use it to confirm who you are. As a merchant, you can get full name, address and full email. It shows up in our transaction registry. Supposedly it is for tax purposes to show who you sold what to, but if you have that info, finding that person's ISP is just a matter of looking. No spyware needed.


Maybe they misunderstood your question and thought you were asking about 3rd party disclosure?

They all do. The booty is to big and full for them to resist.

They love the booty and they can not lie
The other paysite owners can't deny
When they go in a forum and the booty link in that place
And then the free stuffs in their face
They get sprung, wanna pull out our tounges
'Cause they know that stuff is theirs!
Deep in the paysite battle
They-see-their-stuff and get
MAD!

 :lol: I had to. Sorry

Several here know how I got all the information, but I cannot disclose all the details at this time. They are gathering evidence, so it's best to just let them do their jobs and decide what they will do, either way I will support their decision. I will no longer purchase any EA games if they say it's ok. But. I will respect their decision. I personally do not think it will go that way since they are collecting evidence, but it could. For them to collect legal evidence it doesn't happen overnight, so I'll just be patient and see how it goes. Let's just say I have been in contact with EA and not the support/tech team. They are the ones that pointed out to me that what we have with EA is a contract a very legal contract, that lawyers from around the world in EA's own legal depts checked and rechecked to make sure those laws were also upholdable in other countries. Not once did they say anything about copyright/trademark it was all about the contract we agreed too. That the game also comes with an I disagree button if people don't agree to the contract. They didn't do anything about SimPE because it was shared freely, they are also aware of many mods that exist. It is a different story if people are using CC as a means to support themselves, or are making a profit off the game.

I don't think so??? I'm sure they could have, but Paypal sent me the receipt they sent to her because I was threatening with lawyers. It didn't have my mailing address or even my phone number. Nor did it have my banking information. It looked almost exactly like the one they sent to me except it had her merchant code and the name of the business on it. It didn't even have her banking information on it as to where the funds would be deposited. They told me for electronic downloads that information is not given. Only when a merchant needs a shipping address in order to ship the merchandise. Just my real name, and email addresss is given for electronic downloads as well as a receipt number. Then they get their summary at the end of the year, or quarterly for all sales. Rose did tell me at that time that she knows exactly who is sharing what, and that another website the people sign up for gives her all the information she needs. That they require all information when you sign up for them. I figured that would be TSR since they're the only ones that required all my information before I could become a member. So I don't know if Paypal did it and lied to me about electronic downloads and that they only turn over personal information for electronic downloads to law enforcement. Or if they told me the truth and Rose got all the information from another website. I do know if Paypal gave Rose that information and she shared it, it should be reported to Paypal. Sorry I have to keep editing I'm trying to make sense and chase down a two year old and three year old at the same time. Making me crazy lol

Jebus help us how many times are you planning on posting in this thread?

There's something called "edit" at the top you know - click it for more insight.

Agreed.  What's the deal with quoting your own post and not typing anything new?  :?

The picture has been deleted (the NeptuneSuzy one), did someone save it???  :idea:

You betcha baby - when needed again I will pull it out.  :D

Why was it deleted? Anyone know?

You are a good wench!!  :D

Calalily - I posted about the TOU in S2C, but I did ask a question as well and would like to hear your answer.

Ah - can't answer that one as you can upload my stuff, recolour my stuff, paint my stuff on your car - so long as it's free - I don't limit anyone uploading to the exchange or anywhere else.  I only ban paysite use.  And I'm considering taking down the link thing - because I didn't mean it to be enforced strictly - I just wanted them to refer people to me if someone asked.

I actually suggested in one of the WCIF threads to someone who wanted different colour skins that I had them with designs on the face - but that they were welcome to remove them and use the base colours.  Seeing as I go about 30 hits from that one post, I'd say it's the right decision - and other simmers appreciate it.  :D

I’m sorry for setting this thread back a few pages, but I’m a little behind and I’m a little confused.  :?

I don’t remember anybody saying that paysites were good, nice and/or legal. That wasn’t NeptuneSuzy’s message as far as I understood it (not including the screenshot here), and I certainly didn’t say so either – or at least I definitely didn’t mean to. So maybe there’s some misunderstanding going on.

But ... Paden, I’ll use you own words: “Wake the hell up and pull your head out of your ass” A contract, such as the EULA is NOT superior to laws. On the contrary, laws are above contracts in the legal hierarchy, so laws overrule contracts. If a contract stipulates something different than national law, the law overrules the contract. The contract – the EULA – becomes void. Hence why the EULA is not such a clear-cut argument about why paysites are definitely, indisputably illegal. Hence why I wish you guys would stop throwing it around all the time. There was an English corporate law student somewhere saying something about the power of ‘contracts’. I’d advice that law student to learn a little more about the legal hierarchy before they graduate. Otherwise they risk getting themselves and their clients into some serious trouble. Contracts can NOT overrule national law.

Along the same lines: When ‘EA says’ something it is their point of view coming out. It is not a legally binding point of view and should not be regarded as such. In any case, in my opinion there are much better arguments to be used against paysites than the EULA one, which is why I brought it up.



I did get that exactly straight. I don’t at this moment remember exactly which of the Sims 1 (ONE) expansions it began saying ‘EA Games’ at the intro together with or instead of ‘Maxis’, but it was several years ago. EA are just as guilty in accepting paysites as Maxis. If they are changing their stance now it is for different reasons – one of them being PMBD, but I’ll get back to that.



I’m not debating the legality/illegality of PMBD. I’m saying that the illegality of paysites is not clear-cut.



Yes, that’s what I’m saying. There is no way to control what happens to your stuff on the internet.



I think a certain amount of people do actually give a damn. I can think of several incidents where someone took credit for another creator’s work and at least parts of the community reacted strongly to that. There were probably even people from here among the ‘reactors’.



No, I don’t think you should. PMBD HAS made a difference and I acknowledge that. I was just trying to say that is sad that it has to be that way.  :(

Now I can’t find the post, but somebody said they didn’t understand the whole control thing. I’ll try to explain. Personally I put a very liberal policy on my creations. They are free, recolorable, clonable, shareable, uploadable, redistributable, whatever-able, as long as I get credit for making them and they aren’t used for pay or donation purposes. I would be very angry and rather disappointed if one of them one day ended up on a paysite - or on a freesite, but with someone else’s name underneath it. Meaning somewhere I didn't want it to go or in a way that I didn't want it to be there in. Is that difficult to understand?

If you benefit from what I create, is it really too much to ask that you respect what I ask you not to do to my creations?

That’s what the control thing is about.

I know this is already a very long post, but I’d still like to clarify something. I agree with PMBD’s mission, but I think there are things that could be done better or differently – which is why I finally opened my mouth. I think there are quite a few people like me out there who don’t like paysites at all, but who also have issues with PMBD’s way of doing things (and they may not be the same as my issues with PMBD, of course). We don’t have very many places to go at the moment to make our voices heard. I may just be an idealistic dreamer, but I think it would be great if there were room for a less ... I don’t know .. ‘hard’ line at PMBD. If EA right now is collecting information about paysites – including TSR – it is because they have started to become more of a nuisance than an advantage. That is very much due to PMBD, the efforts of people here and the amount of people supporting those efforts. I mean, Nouk’s emailing with EA is great. Hecubus’ ‘Money better spent’ initiative is down-right fabulous. Those statistics that she collected on what various paysites cost you should be put up as the top-most sticky here. With bold, blinking Peggy-like characters. And I’m sure many more people would support her initiative if the whole PMBD crowd were seen as less harsh and ... shit, I can’t find the word ... disrespectful is the only one I can think of. The more people behind this cause, the more chance of success.

And just a quick return to another reason why I don’t find the EULA argument a particularly good one. Somebody has already pointed out that the Sims community mostly consists of women. A lot of us women react more strongly to emotional or moral issues than to legal, factual ones. Which is why I think for example pointing out how paysites have abused their paypal buttons would appal a lot more people than what is in the EULA. I mean, how about assembling a list of paysite scams? The Hern Project, Sasilia and her 'charity' etc. If any crowd of people could or would put together that list, wouldn’t they all be found here?

Anyway, I guess I should apologize about the long post, but I’m not sure if you pirates do that. I just got the impression that some people here thought I was NeptuneSuzy’s pal brought in for the occasion, and I’m not.

Gotta go and find myself a bottle of rum now ...   :wink:

Sorry if I'm a bit more bitchy than normal, but with a bone broken in my hand, it's normal. Ok, so what you're saying is that it's ok to break a contract? What about being sued for violation of said contract? What about the fact that paysites sell content that break the game and get people pissed off at the makers of the game, thereby causing them to lose prestige and customers? And, yes, it's a binding fucking agreement or why the fuck else would EA have legal reps in all of the goddamn countries the motherfucking game is published in? Ack! Again, if I mistook your meaning, sorry, but I'm in pain and typing this to ask those questions fucking hurt. I'm going to go find something to dull the grinding feeling coming from the bones now...

 :roll:   oh that scam   :roll:

some "child" (and he was actually a 19 yr old) of this woman goes to the hospital and this 'project' rolls out to pay the bills......even though the person was covered by Ontario health insurance so there wasnt any bills and then the mom claims the kid has a gaping hole in his skull....and she took him and a bunch of his friends out for pizza...yeah, like a hospital would release someone with an open hole in their skull to go out for pizza...

and there was a hell of a lot more that didnt 'feel right'; too many unanswered questions....I believe she took in a couple of grand   :x


as to the "response of emotion rather than reason"?  yup, that too: far too many people (mostly women and/or mothers) simply overlooked all the warning flags and sent in their dough because it 'touched them'

here's just one example out of many how some people didnt look carefully, didnt read any critical questioning of this scam and just gushed out their tears...and opened their purses for this scamola...notice she has  kids of her own, has only started to work, and is so caught up in this emotional scam...but then again, it seems a lot of others did too:


I haven't had the guts to read your diary...just from what I have garnered from reading this thread, I can understand that you have been having a very hard time.

Having 5 children of my own, I know how hard it is when something happens to one of them...I can't bring myself to learn more of the details....I'm already in tears from what I read as it is.

You are in my prayers...and as SOON as the government paperwork goes through and I get my first salary (I'm a working Mommy, now) you'll be getting a donation from me.

:shock: That's new to me. Linky? :D

Paden, no I just meant that laws on copyright and intellectual property are superior to the EULA. And those laws may be on the (paysite) creator's side, overruling the EULA. Contracts aren't that high in the legal hierarchy. It all depends whether the package file format is covered by intellectual property, and personally, I've heard conflicting - but all credible - opinions of that.

And then I just wanted to say that one should be careful about how much weight one puts into EA's interpretation of their own contracts. In a court case that interpretation would only one side of the case, and the court might choose to disregard it.

I found an old dusty bottle of rum in the basement. Wanna share it? It might do something good for that broken hand of yours.

ETA:
Hand, goddammit, not arm. That rum is getting to me already. Paden, please take some of it, otherwise it'll all go badly wrong for me.

Evilredduckie: The Hern Project was a Sims 1 thing. It was for the son of Libbie (or something similar) who was co-owner of Flotsim and Jetsim and the above description is pretty much what I know happened.

it was one of (many)  thread posts from N99 that...dont exist anymore (gee, wonder why)   :wink:

Error
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The post you selected no longer exists. It may have been recently deleted.



I guess after the questions got too much and the twisting lies and stories began to contradict themseleves the mods deleted the whole Hern mess.

This was back in Jan-Mar of 2004.

Why does it seem like people just keep going on about how horrible PMBD is?  What, does PMBD have to be the only site that does anything about anything?

No one is twisting anyone's arm to be a part of PMBD--no one is stopping anyone from starting a "nicer" way of dealing with things and hashing out morals, which is pretty much the only thing left to argue after HP's letter.

If it came down to suing, it wouldn't be over the EULA.  It would be copyright.

http://forums.thesimsresource.com/showthread.php?t=232819&highlight=Hern

the dirt on Project Hern
(the other threads were deleted, but you can get the idea of what was wrong)



http://forums.thesimsresource.com/showthread.php?t=229546&highlight=Project+Hern

it gets announced as updates and, well...



 :roll:

Because sometimes, some of you people are pretty horrible. Sorry, but that's what it looks like to an outsider like me.



I'm just trying to do that. But with ... what ... five or six posts mostly disagreeing with the general consensus here, I just don't carry very much weight, do I.  :wink:

About the Hern Project. I donated to that and still have all the files in my Sims 1 game, so it wouldn't be hard to find out what creators contibuted to it. Imagine asking them what they think about the whole endeavour today. I'm sure I could also dig out the Paypal receipts. As could a lot of other people. Make some totals. The same thing could be done for a lot of other similar cases. That could make fun reading, I think.  :lol:

I think we need to have a person at the door that says:

We understand that the Pirates of PMBD may be rude, obnoxious, unfeeling, and sometimes drunk. If you think this will cause you extreme distress or butthurt we advise you to go to a much nicer site such as SimsFileVault.

I don't buy that for a second.  If it was truly as horrible as you think then you wouldn't even come here--let alone post.  I'd say we've been pretty cordial with you but we do have our limits and if you keep pushing then you will be pushed back.

As for the Project Hern scandal, somehow I missed that.  People are always looking for an easy buck, aren't they?

That was my post, Peachfish, and you answered it yourself:  "Yes, that’s what I’m saying. There is no way to control what happens to your stuff on the internet."

The point of my post wasn't that creator control wasn't important, but that it is, in the end and unfortunately, a pretty futile enterprise, for one, and that's followed up with the fact that all the stuff in the Booty IS credited to the creator and includes text links to the creator's site.  Another point I was making was that if paysite creators don't honor the game manufacturer's EULA, why would they then expect their TOUs to be honored?

What I hadn't, and perhaps should have, said was that I do respect creators very much and will personally gladly credit them and have done so extensively (and that was just for stories I put up on the exchange!) - it's never occurred to me to do otherwise.  I didn't make it and I won't take credit for it, I will give credit where it's due with my gratitude.  Lots of folks will do that as well.  But there will always be at least one who won't out of apathy, malice, or ignorance, and, in the big scheme of things, it makes me wonder why some creators waste so much energy on worrying about it when once it's up and out there it really is out of their hands.  It's just how it is.

They may not like that their stuff is in the Booty, but at least it's properly credited.  Live with it like that and continue to charge, or stop charging and they come down.  Those with stuff in the Booty already got paid for it, which violated the EULA, which negates their TOUs.  It's perhaps harsh for creative sensibilities (I have them too, you know, I can empathize), but too many paysites haven't played fair with this community and that needs to be exposed.  The Booty is an equalizer.

*edited for verb agreement and pronoun replacement.

You know Peachfish, I don't go off on too many people, but nobody fucking asked your opinion I think it was a question that was relative to the discussion regarding NS.  If you want shits and giggles, there are plenty of other places to go.  IF you want to insult us  - call us out for the horrible, dispicable people that you say we are....charge on.  But be prepared, this is Pes' site and it's not a secret how big of an ass he is so I don't know what all the shock and awe is about.  But, I will tell you this, at least you will get the truth here.  Nobody who is an active member backs down or backs off of touchy subjects - me included.  You can present your argument with merit and it will be considered, if you troll us we are going to come out bearing swords and swinging.  So - what about that don't you understand?  We don't "lure" innocents here or try to steal from you.  Everything in the booty has been bought and paid for...would you like to see a credit card receipt?  Hmmmm?  When it was all nicey nice about "Come on, be a free site pretty please, Paden will bake you some cookies"  Doors slammed, bans and middle fingers rose.  So, here we are.  

Damnit Paden take some pills and get out here...

I'm really starting to be sick and tired of hearing we are horrible and harsh and disrespectful and evil. What, sometimes, some of us are horrible?? Wow. And here I thought anyone could say the exact same thing about pretty much any place, in real life or on the internet. People are fortunately free to start whatever initiative they will, but it's beyond me why they insist on starting it right at PMBD if it's so fucking unpleasant in here. I'll tell you more, it's actually this kind of attitude that turns me into a harsh, pissed off person.

Okay, first a mistake: I should not have phrased that ’horrible’ thing like that. It would be more correct to say that some of you sometimes come off as pretty horrible. I think I said something like that in a previous post too. I am not afraid of taking a beating and have done so on a few occasions, but I have until now been very wary about opening my mouth here, because in my lurkdom I’ve seen too many examples of reasonably sensible arguments or points of view being met with ‘yeah, fuck off bitch, we’ll just string you up’. There’s a couple of examples in this thread. I’ve also said before that I have no problems with Pescado’s attitude and comments. Most of the time I even agree with him.

JFederated, sorry I couldn’t find your post before. I’ve located it now, and thank you for the respect you show for creators. It is very much appreciated – at least from where I am. I am aware that you can make the argument that paysite and free creators are treated differently and logically I can see and appreciate the difference. But there is still a part of me that feels it’s the same. It’s an emotional thing (yes, I’m a woman). As a principle I somehow still doesn’t like it. I don’t like the fact that you have one Numenor file in the booty, either, although I can understand and appreciate the logic behind it. I guess, it’s just a dilemma.

Armywife, I don’t think I’m trolling you. Is this considered trolling?

I didn't mean you as in you - you, you as a general term.  And I probably shouldn't press that submit button until I calm down slightly.  

I guess I have grown tired of how "PMBD is full of a bunch of mean people who just get off on beating fresh meat" (so to speak).  However, a lot of times, if you have had the opportunity to get to know individuals behind the screen names, you will see that some of what you read is in good fun and smartass comments slung back and forth don't bother the majority of us cause we're laughing.  I mean, how many site owners have a thread in their forum like Pes - read "It's All Pescado's Fault" in Sharkbait.  I don't ask you to agree with me or anyone here, and some of your posts have presented very reasonable and well thought-out arguments.  But to make a comment that is general in nature and insulting is not well taken.   I haven't commented on your posts previously because I did see the reasoning in what you were saying.  I too am a woman....duh if wife wasn't a clue.  And I am not usually that emotional except when I am being accused or portrayed in a light that is not true or accurate.   If you feel as if someone is being treated unreasonably, then you should call them on it....right then.  Or you could PM them and discuss it, I have.  I have not always agreed with everyone here and will not, but at least I am able to post my opinions freely without restriction and I take my spankings like a big girl.

I’m glad to know that and I understand what you mean. I made a mistake and you have every reason to be put off about that. (I knew I should have given that bottle of rum to Paden instead of drinking it myself  :oops: ).

And one thing I like very much about this place is that opinions can be expressed freely. What has made me wary is that sometimes those opinions gets slapped with some (IMO) pretty nasty and unnecessary comments. If you’re a newcomer or outsider, who don’t know the people behind those comments very well, it doesn’t really make you want to come back. That was what I was trying to say, but I didn’t put it in a very fortunate way, I admit.

Peachfish my suggestion is LURK longer. Many of the regs have gotten chewed out for something or another at one point at time. You say you like that opinions can be expressed freely but then you say that we are "TEH EVIL" and should be nicer? Well that's our opinions they maybe mean and/or alcohol induced sometimes but that's what helps people decide if they want to stay or not. We are recruiting Well I was until none of my stalkees noticed I was stalking them so I quit stalking and recruiting! people to the anti-paysite movement not the PMBD movement. So if they don't like us or the site then that's tough. They can just leave. Where I'm going with this: All the people that are "against teh eval pirates" act as though just by occasionally jumping on people and enjoying it that we are scaring them away from the anti paysite movement but in reality we just don't want trolly or annoyingly stupid people at the site.


Anyway...I'm hungry.

About the PMDB "evilness"... Yes, we bite stupid people, and we live by the honored tradition of insulting people for humor and bonding. I LOVE that this forum isn't one of those cuddly-wuddly places and if you don't like it, just grab the booty and get the hell out of here, because no one will miss you.

I lurked this forum for AGES before I even registered, then I lurked some more before posting. Because... that's how I usually do stuff. And I've never been told to read the stickies, gtfo or anything else mean. ... Now I probably will be, though. :D

Thanks for that at least  :). Not every forum you come to is going to be your cup of tea and even in a place like this where you may (or may not) agree with the general consensus, it isn't necessarily going to function the way you want it to. This doesn't mean this is the only place that you can put your ideas forward, or that you can't start a group (or site, or forum) that will handle the subject matter and actions in a way that you would like it to be run.

I had no problems with the way the site was run when I first started posting here (of course, I had been lurking for quite a while before my first post), and am more than willing to take my lumps if I screw up. In fact I expect it, because I'm not going to hold back if I see something that someone has written that I think is foolish. People here are very opinionated and don't feel like they should have to baby people through, especially when they haven't bothered to learn anything about the forum culture before posting.

What I've seen here (usually anyway) is that when posts are made intelligently and are well thought out that they are well accepted even if the following posters don't agree with you. I think the "PMBD is so mean!!!" argument is mostly untrue. We are critical (okay, okay, very critical) of most paysites and their actions in general, and can be very harsh with behaviour and arguments that we consider childish or badly reasoned, but I think we are generally very fair. You must admit that (for the most part anyway) people here have answered your posts and concerns in a fairly even and uncruel way.


Please forgive my 8 million run on sentences, heh

I think a lot of people forget about this little piece of genius (http://paysites.mustbedestroyed.org/mission.html).

I mean, that pretty much outlines EXACTLY what this site is about, and exactly the attitude the phorum stands for.  PMBD uses the EULA to simply prove that what it's doing isn't illegal, it's not our battle cry for cripes sake.  
If people are met with rudeness here, it is because of 2 reasons.
1.  n00bish (lol fun to type) behavior.  Making new threads for OLD news, necromancy, or asking for things.  Course, if those people would take half the amount of time they devoted to choosing an avatar and devoted it to reading stickies, those posts would not happen.  The phorum encourages baptism by fire for those who break those simple rules.  If your skin is thick enough to realize that you were an idiot and start playing by the rules, everyone will forget your past transgressions.
2.  n00bish replies.  You've made a good post and some kid who only has 2 post replies to you telling you your stupid and to go to hell.  In which case you can start a drinking game and just take a swig of rum every time a senior member of the phorum tells that person to stfu.  Not that only having 2 posts means your opinion doesn't matter and no one will listen to you :P

I love the phorum.  I don't post here much anymore, but it's only because I don't have anything to say.  Regarding Suzy, I'm disappointed.  I have always liked her, and still do.  I haven't read through this entire thread because it would be too tedious, but I realize that she's in some sort of mess that I wish she could have stayed out of.  She would have done herself a favor by keeping her mouth shut, then she wouldn't have had to have taken the heat for a bunch of decisions and polices that she doesn't have any control over.

So tell me - exactly what have you done for freesites, or to bring paysites down - other than not paying for content?

I keep hearing people wringing their hands and saying this isn't the way to do it - but what do you do? Nothing.  And if you'd done something, a drastic solution like PMBD wouldn't be needed, or necessary and wouldn't have such vehement support - would it?

Those who say it must be a "nice" revolution are kidding themselves - "nice" hasn't gotten you jackshit for years - and now that something is actually causing butthurt and making people talk you want nice?

The chance for nice passed about 3 years back - you know, while you were sitting on your hands and saying how nice everyone was and doing fuckall.

Not to mention, what exactly have you done to further the cause in the direction you want - cause I know I've done plenty other than bitch at PMBD, and so have a lot of people here.  You - I've not seen what you've done your way - the "nice" and apparently "right" way.  I venture that it's nothing, but call for niceness from the people actually doing things.

 My thoughts also. I might add that every forum has it's own flavor, and here it's RUM. Don't like rum? Sorry about that, but it's time to move on.  Expecting an existing forum and it's members to modify their drinking habits to suit your particular tastes is insulting and not a particularly smart idea.

That is absolutely true, and I appreciate that. That’s why I’m still here.  :)



So did I. If you look at the dates, you’ll see that we joined on the same day.  :wink:

In any case, my main purpose in leaving lurkdom wasn’t at all to tell you all how ‘evil’ you are. It was to put in my two cents about what in my opinion is good and/or bad about PMBD/the anti-paysite movement. Then twice Ensign EO asked why pirates always had to be seen as such horrible people. I answered that (not in a very sensible fashion), but I think I should have let you all answer it yourself. If the mission statement that Doursim posted is anything to go by, then that is exactly the way you want to be seen. So no need to wonder.  :lol:


Nothing revolutionary I guess. I create and run a site where everything is free and shareable except for pay and donation purposes. I speak out on the subject every time it comes up in any of the forums I go to, or when people email me about it. I’ve tried to dig up some information about TSR, but I don’t have enough base information to go by to find what I want.



No, but I’m saying that there are other and less controversial ways of convincing people to support the cause. Hecubus’ financial stats. The gathering of all available information about paysite scams. Calculations of income etc. A lot of that information is already here, but any newcomer just dropping in to check the place out would be very unlikely to stumble upon it among those pages and pages of (justified) Carla Niven-slamming and off-topic discussions. And this is not to say that the Carla Niven-slamming and off-topic discussions shouldn’t happen, just that it would be good to have the useful, convincing information more easily available.



Let’s just get one thing straight, here. You – you do not know who I am or what I do, so I suggest you be a little more careful with your judgements.

I suspect if you don't expand on this,




you will get a hell of a lot more of this





and a hell of a  lot worse.


The way it reads, is that you have a free site with the exception of having pay and donation items, which is not a free site. I don't think that is how you meant it, so I thought I would warn you.

Don't be so sure, BTG. I just got a response from Alice Fashion - who has pay sets - where she said she was a free site.

I think some site owners REALLY don't understnd that 'donation gifts' are pay items.

Peachfish, don't get coy. If you are part of a paysite, you'd better own up, or disappear. It did sound like you run a paysite. If you don't, you'd better clarify.

If you don't like the atmosphere here, don't come. This place has a nasty reputation, but the people here for the most part are intelligent and witty. We're grown ups who don't like blinky avatars and netspeak. A few of us will jump all over racist and unfair comments.

You should ask Fresh Prince how we treated him. We knew he was an intelligent, thoughtful young person, and no one flamed him or gave him grief. We had a very thoughtful discussion about his consideration of becoming a paysite.

I am getting very tired of the "just be nice" song and dance. If you have a different approach, run with it. If you are effective, more power to you. The fact is until PMBD jabbed it's collective finger into everyone's eyes, no one was seriously debating this.

From a previous post



Hope that clears it up.

ETA:
I don't know, but it seems I keep getting myself misunderstood. My main purpose has never been to go crying 'Stop being so mean to everybody. Boo hoo hoo'. More to throw in a contribution, if you wish, as to how the anti-paysite movement could get better and gain more followers. I think PMBD is the best chance and the strongest player in that battle. So why not make it even stronger by making it more than just the booty and the EULA argument?

Peachfish- Let me acknowledge that I appreciate your willingness to admit that maybe you didn't go about expressing yourself as you would have liked initially.  However, clear a few things up for me/us:  What is the name of your site?  I mean Cala lists hers here so does Nouk, and then there's HP from MTS2 and S2C, not to mention Kathy from Insim has also freely posted here.  See, I believe the first step in actually showing support is to step up and step out and not ride the fence.  I have yet to see you mention your site.  

Secondly, do you have 100 % freesite on your site?  Do you link to the booty?  Do you reference any of the EA responses to inquiries within this community?  These are questions I feel you should answer.  Why - you brought them up in your posts.  I do believe for the largest part we have treated you as we would any member.  

EDIT:  I have no problem with 100% freesites asking for donations on a voluntary basis.  Just wanted to clarify.
This "movement" that you speak of is no movement at all, in my humble opinion.  It is the difference between right and wrong in my eyes.  I paid for the S2 and all the expansion packs, as a lot of us have.  I am not a creator but do enjoy downloading the pretties that are made for it.  Some really talented individuals create for the Sims but they don't own the copyright or the license.  Noone should plan their life, finances and business around a game that is distributed and owned by someone else.  Pay content is wrong...just plain wrong.  If you want to create something that's wonderful, but really should you be paid for it?  No.   There are many excuses as to why people feel justified in asking for money, but did I ask you to spend your time doing it - no.  I see Nouk and Cala who are so extremely talented and they do it because they enjoy it, participate in the community of it, and I personally enjoy the relationships with a lot of people within the community.  I lurked for quite some time to get a feel of where this community was when I became interested in the Sims (I was a late comer to the whole thing) and in all the things I have learned about different sites, I would back PMBD and those associated before I would anyone else.  Why? Well, I am the wife of a combat veteran Army officer and have lived my life as an Army wife for 22 years, as someone with integrity, community involvement, volunteerism and a true and intense need to do what is right, regardless of popularity.  Loyalty is something I value above all in others.  Which is what you will find in the membership here.  Agreement on everything? No Warm fuzzies? No. So maybe this is a little more info than necessary, but I don't give a damn.  For me there is no grey - For or Against or In or Out (get your mind out of the gutter ERD), just the necessity to stand with those and say NO - We will not let you make this community a thriving personal business for yourself and stand by and do nothing.

armywife is right - by hiding your identity and just coming to tell us all what to do you ride the fence on this issue - and essentially stand for nothing - because the name of peachfish doesn't mean anything.

I laughed at NeptuneSuzy's accusation at s2c that if our respective pasts and actions are researched then we all find skeletons in our closets.  Not bloody likely.  That's part of the bandwagon you can never hop on until you reveal your identity.

And I suggest that you be more careful with your judgements - the time and effort I put in here on PMBD is equalled by the time spent sensibly debating it elsewhere with people who feel that paysites are alright, as well as free site initiatives.

And almost all those involved in freesite promotional activities - I know the names they post under here, and most of them have the same names, or are not afraid to identify themselves.



Could you vague that up a little more - because I can sorta understand that statement?  How 'bout suggesting we do the thing with the thing?  That would just make it vague enough for me.

Armywife, I just sent you a PM with the address of my site. If anybody else wants to know it I’ll PM you too.

But please respect that for the moment I prefer to remain anonymous – to those people who spy this forum and report to others. You can call me a chicken, because that’s what I am.

As for your questions: Yes, it is a 100 percent free site. No, I don’t link to the booty, simply because as I have mentioned before I still have an emotional problem with hosting creations somewhere against the creators will. No, I don’t have links to the EA responses, basically because I haven’t updated the site since before those responses came out. I’ve spend my time working on the creations instead of making the site itself better or more complete. I hope that will change sometime soon and then I will link to the EA responses and am considering linking to Hecubus’ Money Better Spent.

I guess that’s the crux of the matter for me. I agree with everything you said in your last paragraph, and I create for the same reasons as Nouk and Calalily. I would like to link to here, but as long as the whole thing centers around the booty and the EULA argument I have a problem fully and whole-heartedly supporting it. Did that make any sense?

Snarky - you crack my ass up on a daily basis.

Yes.  You are anti-paysite, anti-filesharing.  You confused me (and most likely others) by arguing about 2 things at the same time.  The first argument being that we're all a nasty bunch of pirates that should clean up our act (in the forum) and then that we're all a nasty bunch of pirates who should clean up our act (file sharing).

Damn.  Before anyone asks, no I will not reveal any info given to me in a PM.  If you know me, you know that honor is a big thing with me - so don't ask.

But triple damn.  I really don't think that you would have as hard a time as you think.  Truly.  You should pm Calalily and Nouk and even Mama Hec and seriously they can advise you in that arena much better than I.  All 3 are individuals who will maintain your privacy.  I also know that you have been in this community for a long time. I also know that you are well respected and I can understand that you value others.  Since I have interacted with you on other boards, I do have a great respect for you.

Having said that, as more and more creators/site owners stand up and against the fleecing of the community, the better the community becomes.   Respecting someone's wishes should be tempered with common sense.   The booty and the EULA and the EA responses as well as many large sites making a united effort to end this once and for all is a very good reason to support it.  I can't tell you what to do or make you do anything, and don't want to.  It has to be your choice and your decision.  I will respect that.  My only issue was your critique of my fellow pirates.  So here's some rum from me to you...damn

 :D I HAVE to know :lol:

Please and thank you :D

Armywife, thank you very, very much. Those are words that I take to heart. You just made me feel immensely much better about being here. I will happily share my rum with you and anyone else here.  :D

Apologies again for the confusion and for the stupid 'horrible' remark. I usually don't have a problem expressing myself, but this time I think I got it wrong.

I am well aquainted with Peachfish - as it turns out ;P - and I can confirm

- her site is 100% free, but she does ask for donations to help offset costs (much like other great free sites do!)

- her concerns over exposure are, at this point warranted. Please don't prod her to come out until she's confident that she can. (Armywife's advice to chat with Nouk and Calalilly is a good one...I'd add Alia and Sparkle Plenty to that list, for various reasons.)

- she and I have had some interesting discussions about the ethics of the booty from an 'honoring the creators' standpoint. I think we DO honor them....we name them, credit them, don't take any credit for ourselves. We pay for everything we share. But....I'm sure we'll continue this part of the debate both in private and here.

- she's pretty funny! Once she has a bit of rum in her, she'll loosen right up!

Peachfish, thanks for being brave enough to join, despite your own hesitations. I think you'll find that we really ARE the 'good kind of evil.'

I think everyone finds the phorum scary until they post - just so long as they don't post with anything terribly silly and don't keep on posting terribly silly stuff, they have no problems.  It's always far more scary before you post.

*Edited out*


 
I don't think that you really need to do anything more, and if you don't wish to link to filesharing, you should feel no compulsion.  But those who link here are not merely relying on this forum to do the work - they are doing other things as well - they are giving free site hosting, or free help and other things.  None of us rely on PMBD, mainly because we hope, as much as we love our pirates, that one day it will not be needed.  Although I weep for the butthurt robbed from Pescado  :cry: .

To argue that PMBD is the only rallying point is not true - that is the issue.  It is a big in your face site that gets attention - that takes the focus off pay content as a forbidden fruit, and often people are vastly dissatisfied with the content they find - and then they start on the freesite movement, because despite what they've been thinking this time, the paystuffs are *not* as good as they were led to believe.

Turns out I am too. I'm too nosy for my own good.  :lol:

THIS is what ya get for being..."nice" (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?t=1065&start=30)

 :x

Thank you Hecubus. It’s really good to be able to talk to you here as well.  :D

Just one little correction: I don’t ask for donations on the site. I’m on a completely free host, so there’s no reason for it.

Calalily, I don’t think PMBD is the only rallying point for the anti-paysite thing. It is the biggest and most powerful and the one that has the most chances of getting the battle won. I would like to support and be part of that, so I'm trying to find a way to do it that I’m comfortable with.

Sent you a PM, so all is clear.

I would love to know who you are but will represent the pirates who are happy to wait until you reveal yourself. I am not in a position to give you the advice that others can. Some of your early arguments were very odd but I'm glad we worked out what it is you were saying.
Welcome to the party. *passes around special homemade rum* Careful, it's potent.

I don't think it is the only rallying point - but it's the one that gets the most attention - it's where we get a lot of good new recruits.  s2c is good for that too - and yields similar recruits ( to freesite causes).

One of the best things one could do is email creators - quite apart from PMBD actions.

You know, maybe we could have a big "coming out" party - when all this settles. Rum, cigars, Gwen's penis, everything....uploads of houses full of TSR furniture and sims...

That would be fun.  Count me in.

Good idea  :lol:  But I though we already had that one going...but maybe it's just me seeing double again... *blink blink*

But whatever! *passes rum*

Peachfish/Cala  - Maybe you should do some editing, hmm?  If Cala figured it out, others will as well.  Just a suggestion.

EDIT:  Trolls

Calalily, very good idea. Let’s talk about how best to go about it.

And do sign me up for the party too.  :D

Edited my post  :D

A list of owners - Hecubus and the other buccaneers are good for that, as I'm sure that she has names and knows where the most likely site owner to change would be.  Or at least those likely to change due to content amounts of stuff they have, and prices they charge.

Letter writing - not my forte - I tend to be flat of affect and too formal, and seem rude.  But content in the email - I can sure give on that  :D

So, has NeptuneSuzy gone into hiding?  I'm not bothering to skim the threads on s2c/insim anymore because they only irritate me.  The editing/deleting of posts from the mods I'm not too keen on either.

OK then, I'll accept what Hecubus and Calalilly say about Peachfish. I do appreciate that you're willing to keep posting in a situation that must have been uncomfortable.

HEY!  What about me? You forgot me? It's all about me? Right???  Just Kidding.  You can trust them on this (and me too)

Hey, I know I do! Besides, I really liked the way you handled this from your first post to the last one :D I'm unaware of who peachfish really is and what exactly is going on, but it doesn't matter as I am  happy that things were cleared up and rum is passed around, at last!

I'll add my two cents to the whole Peachfish conversation. I can also testify that she is in fact a very nice person, has GREAT downloads (which have managed to stay in my downloads folder after 3 clean ups), and is a very intelligent person to have a conversation with. After having another conversation with her about another issue, I can say that she's very nice about talking things over with you if you have a problem with anything she's said.  


Anyway...I'm still hungry.  :roll:

OK, OK, I trust armywife and redlove too.  :roll:  Guess I failed to properly link and credit.

:lol: I wasn't fishing for credit I was just saying that for the people that like to air dirty laundry in threads. Peachfish is very nice at talking in PMs about stuff that doesn't need to be aired out in the threads.

Now if I was fishing for credit then my post would have been 3 times as long as that with lots of random bolded and italisized words. :roll:

* I'd like to thank the Academy, HideTheRum, Redisenchanted.....*

Just kidding.  I was really kidding you Redisenchanted.  But thank you anyway.  HideTheRum you know that you're gonna make me all mushy and shit.  **Big Group Hug and rum for all* Ok, there it is.  I said it. I do think we are breaking through to different areas of the community.  I'm not going to say anymore about Peachfish other than what I have said and will leave it to her to make her own choices.  

missa - No Neptune Suzy unless she lurks.  I did however see a post at TSR about it wasn't Thomass but some other guy who is an admin I think his name was Steve, who had a conference call with EA concerning their content being uploaded to the exchange and an investigation into it.  I have looked again to find it, but of course I couldn't.  Should have gotten it the first time, dammit!

Peachfish, would it be okay if you sent me a PM, too?  I've been lurking this thread and would like to know who you are, lol.  :)

I want to know, too... you guys figured out who Peachfish was and then were all like "HOLY CRAP". I'm curious...
Neptune Suzy was funny, but this is just ridiculous. They're certainly not hiding under the guise of "we're not a BUSINESS", are they? Conference call, now that's really something. :roll: Their content, too. I don't know which gets me worse.

And on a side note, I really like your signature. It made me laugh and then chuckle quietly to myself afterwards.

Peachfish, I am not a lurker but not much of a poster either.. so I don't see the need to really know who you are.  Curiousity is not enough of a reason for me.    

It appears your speaking (in PM and openly) to some of the right people here to give you advice or their viewpoints and talk about your concerns.  

You are a newcomer to this forum but not the community so all I need to say is welcome.

Wow, you guys are incredible. Thank you so much for all those kind words. They are very much appreciated and I’m feeling much more ‘at home’ here already.  :D

I hope I won’t offend anybody by not sending out any more PM’s. There is a fair amount of people here who already know who I am, and one day it won’t be necessary for me to hide behind another name anymore. I’m going to ask you to please be patient until that happens. (For any spies, though: I have nothing to do with TSR, so no need to speculate over there).  :twisted:

Right, enough, mushiness. I brought some bottles. Finest Caribbean stuff I could find. Anybody? *Hands out rum – and a pancake for RedLove*

Typos

Aww. Crap. I just asked too. Gah. Then again, I don't want to know who you are, just what your site is... :( Does that still count? Grr.

Fine, be that way! You SUCK!1!1
... No, not really. But you know that no matter what you say they're going to just keep on speculating. :lol: How can they know for sure you aren't from TSR just because you say so? What if you're lying and only saying that to throw them off? Oooh.
Anyway, I'm guessing you have a pretty popular site to be so worried about being discovered. That or you just enjoy being all Secret Squirrely. 'Tis cool.
And I almost get the feeling that another comment posted by someone else was meant to be condescending... Huh.

*Wraps Silvercoin in tin foil from head to toe* Repeat after me:

There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel. There are NO conspiracies! There is NO secret squirrel.

Thanks ERD I had to clean up the tea that I just spewed all of the place when reading this.

There is no consipiracy I promise.  And no, it is not TSR or even related to TSR.

What, there's a secret suirrel! :lol:  Cool! Can I have it? Plxxxx! I will share rum and everything.

Better have them wondering about that than thinking up new ways to 'lure' and 'bait' people into subscriptions, no?  :lol:

You guys will live from not knowing her usual username - unless you can't live not knowing our real names either - I mean, no one offline calls me calalily - not even Mrs. Calalily - sorry to break it to you.



It's not as if her mission is to become Thomass's mistress and kill him with poison in his sleep, or let us all in to assrape him.  :lol: It's simple, and has been done before, but she might get better results.

 :shock: No Cookie? :(

True enough, but I think TSR has a separate department specifically for that kind of fishing so it's pretty unlikely they'd stop even if there were a TRAITORZZZ!!! in their midst.Say what you will, disbeliever! But while I'm sitting at home, safe and snug in this new full-body metallic protector device, you'll be at home getting your mind probed by aliens! NEENER NEENER!

... Ick. Glad that's not the plan, because that's just nasty. Contact is required for the first one and generally required for the second, and you'd have to be a sneaky little spy with a strange fascination with crappily made Egyptian items to be willing to touch that.

I am. I'm stuck here with my brother who can't even make a piece of freakin' toast. I've been eating cheese and hotdogs for about a day now.   :lol: I wish my mom would teach him how to cook. I would cook but he's afraid he's going to burn his house down so he never plugged his stove up. It's too heavy for me to use.

Silvercoin-

She's not from TSR trust me.  :shock: Somebody has been sniffin' markers! Paranoia is NOT fun- trust me I'm very paranoid.  :lol:

... I was joking. I never thought she was from TSR in the first place. ;)

Oh shoot! Sorry Redlove. But I had my hands full of bottles. I couldn't carry more.  :oops:

Here's a cookie. And a muffin. And a jelly donut. I hope that makes you feel better.  :wink:

I'm disappointed.  We could use a TSR informant because deity knows that they have enough of those here.  I was secretly hoping for Windkeeper because I hold this glimmering hope that she's not as bad as the rest of them and is just waiting for a time to bust out of that joint.

Ditto Miss Angelica. I've always had the same feeling and I love her stuff. Has she even updated yet?

Well, I now know her site, but I haven't the foggiest about it--I've never heard of it before. Then again, I don't go in for building work; it's not my thing. But I wouldn't say she was famous in the conventional sense.

Well, suppose this is old now, from page 6, but i've seen this argument often. I've read some "horror"-stories from my own location, that means, the country i live in, about people who do not seem to care about EULAs. They can get in big troubble not reading the agreements they sign and accept. In fact, i think the pirates are doing the paysite-creators a favor
with warning them about the EULA. If you or anyone else "ignore" these
agreements, you never really know what is going to happen later.

My point is, do not take easy on EULA, the arguments to
PMBD are valid, and it's this site who shows respect for EAs EULA. They have nothing to loose, they can only win. Paysite-creators are in the opposite situation.

I am a highly responsible person and have moral values. So i have asked myself, 1. what am i doing wrong when i add some paysitecontent to the booty? 2. I have also asked myself what am i doing right?

After debating with myself and some friends who know the law, my answer on what i made morally wrong on question nr. 1 was no answer at all. Paysites lost my respect when they started to charge for their CC, adding paypals everywhere, and called it donations. (we all know what a donation means, hopefully). So why should i question my own moral or my fellow pirates moral towards people who 1. don't seem to have any troubble with their own etichs/moral? Do these people earn my respect?
No, they do not.

They have during several years violated EAs own rules, and still some try to rip of people's bankaccounts for creating some pixels, after reading free tutorials on MTS2 or similar sites.  Neither SimPE or wes_h plugins are for sale. The lessons on how to create was never for sale. I have bought a game, with all their EPs, and i have also read the EULA for bodyshop, for homecrafter and when you install the game.

I'll never stop using the EULA arguments, when all this is about is copyrights, and violation of copyrights. I know you are against paysites, and that is good, but lets say, you are a paysiteowner/creator. I bought CC from you and promised you not to share the files. I would not hesitate to break that promise.

Why?

Because if you owned a paysite, you've already broken your promises  to EA, and to me as a customer of EA, by violating their rules. As a paysiteowner you are creating more problems for my kids, and for  parents, the kids want all that glorious paysitecontent, many parents are SILLY enough paying for it, after they've bought the games, which means, the game is getting damm expensive after a while? SO WHAT OTHER RIGHTS DO WE HAVE IF NOT FOR EULA'S?  And heck, i bought it, i can't even get my money back if the stuff is horrible in game, i can throw it, if i am real evil i can of course share it with some people i don't like, but my moral would tell me that i just deleted it  since i don't want other people to get in troubble. That's just an example on debating morality/etichs. (Since my english is limited, i do not often write long stories about anything, but i had to say something about this).

And you have probably read this too?

Nouk have had a correspondance with EA, here are some of the answers

EAs response on usermade tools

Thank you for contacting Electronic Arts.

If the items and tools are used for your own personal use, then there is no copyright violation. If you start to distribute or sell items then it would be.

The items can be harmful and cause errors within the game, our first recommendation would be to remove any custom content. If you have any further questions or concerns
please reply to this email or visit our extensive knowledge base online at http://support.ea.com
Thank you,
Alex I.
EA Online Support


http://www.noukiesims2.net/Piccies/AboutTools2.gif

If one read EULAs the companies can give you $1000 as a gift for reading it. This post is not only for you.

I do not understand that you have a need for beeing anynomous at this site, as long as you do not share any files. I am not going to PM you just to know who you are, that is of no interest to me. I think pirates should be kinda careful who they start talking too, special people who are anonymous in the phorum, but want them to pm her. 100% freesite or not, one never know.......

EULA?  Oh, you mean that 'contract agreement' on software that often times you don't even get a button to click, let alone sign agreement to the 'EULA'.

Last I heard contractual agreements required signatures to be valid...

What's with you guys and necromancy? This thread is almost a month old.

Um, no you don't Mikey. Now we have no problem with pay artists or fans trying to make an intelligent argument but you're not. Try again. :mrgreen:

Dear, clicking "Next" is your agreement. In the case of the Sims2 and all EP and SP, you actually do have to click the "I Agree" radial button, then click "Next". Let's see...do you have all the EP? That means you have now agreed to the EULA six times. So don't give us that shit. If you want to make excuses, at least come up with some new interesting ones.

Bollocks. You can have verbal contracts too--no signature. I don't see why this is any different. By clicking the "OK" or "I Agree" button, you agree to their EULA terms.

Wow!  You folks really ARE sheeples, aren't you?  Translate this!  On secone thought, I don't want to hurt your fragile minds and egos...


So basically, what I'm getting from you folks, is anything to justify theft and abandoning decent morality works for you.

Mikey dear, you really are being a fuck nut, but I shall look at all your posts before I make my final decision. ;)

[/QUOTE]Mikey dear, you really are being a fuck nut, but I shall look at all your posts   before I make my final decision. ;)[/quote]

Honestly, folks;

I really hold nothing against you other than the fact that you think you are better than us.  I've actually enjoyed sparring with you all in here.  Much better than in S2C where they ban you as soon as your opinion becomes "too passionate".  LOL.  

If it wasn't for all the "PAYSITES MUST BE DESTROYED" sheeit, I think we could have lots of fun together!

I'm not a sheep - I've actually thought deeply about this.  As a university ethics tutor in justice and law, I'm well versed on my personal morality, and what the technical terms for it are.  I can justify it under utilitarian ethics, nicomachean ethics and ethical egoism.  The only system that disallows it is deontological ethics, and I don't follow hardline religious ethics, so there's no conflict.

And, surprisingly enough calalily, I'm not going to argue those facts with you, as you do strike me as well educated.

I will say though, that that being said, any frame of thought, belief, guiding mantra, or opinion can quantify and justify any direction for anyone that has the predilection or disposition suited to make those decisions for themselves.  Anyone with half a brain knows that. (no slight to any present intended) What is left is to determine who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'.  Throughout time, History has taught us, that the victor in the conflict ends up 'historically' right.  Now if it came down to those conditions, all that would tell us is one side was stronger and they won.  One would never really know if they were 'right' or 'wrong'.

In our case, if precedent is ever set, then it will decide.  However, we both know EA is too busy making money off of us to make the decision for the masses, so there are those that feel it necessary to make the decision for EA...

...and that is where I will stop on this topic tonight, as I think some progress in our relations may be possible at this juncture.  Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe not.

I'm not better educated than a lot of people here - I just happen to do this for a job.  Here we have teachers, solicitors and a lot of people who have good educations.  This site is less open to sheeples - we're going against community mores - and sheep don't like that.

 

That's ethical egoism.  Other systems of ethics such as utilitarian ethics and nicomachean ethics also support filesharing.



I'm not making any decisions for EA - I'm making decisions for me.  They are a big corporation, and I don't care if they lose some money.  

But what I don't agree with is scalping people who legally buy files, and share them with others. What I don't agree with is the disparate standards that paysite owners seem to employ - that their time/effort/talent/bandwidth are worth more.  What I don't agree with is the fallacious argument that sims websites are only for rich people - which is ludicrous seeing as I have spent $3000+ on playing this game so far - and so none of us are in the gutter.

Now, now.  I never, ever said they were for rich people.  All I ever tendered to you folks was that we make no money off of it, we don't think we are better than thou, we only charge to cover the service we provide for our members, who have agreed with our methods.  I see no disparate standards at MY site, yet you damn me for what other sites do.

I wasn't referring just to your arguments - but rather to the general arguments I've seen around.  I don't think you've ever used the talent argument either - so I wasn't referring to you solely.



It's not just about what is at your site.  By saying that you need payment for bandwidth shits all over sites like Parsimonious - who has to have at least one dedicated server.  It hurts them for donations because simmers are used to seeing people with their hands out for content, and they take donation run sites for granted.

  Okay, besides the fact that one can't say it is 'my' fault if folks don't see a difference, be there one...But what if we narrow this down to my site alone?  Then what might be your arguments?

  We charge a minimal fee for access to a portion of the site, yes.  But some donation sites, and even charities that offer you a free gift, only give you the free gift IF you donate, right.  So besides trying to ensure, the best way we can, that minors don't have easy access to the adult stuff, if someone pays for access to the exclusive section, the adult stuff is their 'free gift'.  We don't only allow them to download each one time only.  They are granted access for a term, and can download as many times as they like.  Thus, they are paying for a service.

Yes, the Adult content is locked until they gain access. But would it be better to just put it up on a freely accessible page and let jr. go at it to their hearts content?  We've been told to use age check buttons; Sorry, doesn't come any where near as 'secure' as the way we have it.  Faxing us a copy of the driver's license; How do you reasonably ensure Jr. didn't just fax or scan us a copy of his older siblings or parents license?  Etc, etc...

Advertisements?  Not happening on my site.  It slows it down for our members.  No one wants to read them, and they use up some of the cost they are supposed to be covering.  Donation?  We tried it, and were lucky if we had 2 per month.  We polled our folks, and they chose the format we now follow.

Believe me, I've covered the angles.

Mikey, I would just like to say that on the subject of donations...
Maybe it has something to do with the way you represent your site.
People are more willing to donate to a site that has owners who aren't as...shall we say...hard to get along with?

If you were more personable, you just might be surprised at what the community would do for you.

Personable?  LOL.  MMNT is a FAMILY, my friend.  My folks love me and I love them.  There isn't anything we would do for each other.

Like I told ya, I only went on the attack because I felt I was under attack or going to be under attack anyway.  You welcome to come to our site and join in on chat one evening. Or just lurk and check out the threads...

Also like I said, my peeps preferred that we charge a small fee to protect the adult content from minors, as many of our members have children themselves.

Family and only 2 donations?
 :shock:

Maybe I will stop by sometime.  :D

LOL.  Yeah, that looks funny.  But really, considering, at least from what I can tell you of the most active members, that most of our people are folks like me that don't have much materially or financially, but they are great people.  Which is why we also have a point system where-by folks, by being active on the forum, can earn points towards getting access to the Exclusive Areas.  SO no one HAS to pay anything...And what we do have for 'paying' members really isn't very many, and barely covers our costs.  In fact, 6 out of 12 months, we probably pay some of the costs out of pocket.

Now granted, our costs aren't really that much in the grand scheme of things, but we I am a 4 person-1 income family, that barely gets by some months as it is.  Not to make anyone feel sorry for us, because we are quite happy already, but rather just so you know I ain't gettin rich of this shit...LOL

You have adult content that is freely accessible by anyone, 18 or not.  Your site states on the very first page that you must be 18 to enter--but where are the safeguards that that person is 18.  I clicked through and registered a while back--even registering, all I was asked for was my username and email.  Then I had access to the free part of the site.  I looked around.  I'm sorry, but a naked sim in nothing but nipple rings is definitely content of an adult nature.

Which is why we have both the 'You must be 18 to enter" disclaimer and the locked content.  The locked content being the actual sex animations nd such.  The pics and skins you are talking about would be akin to a 15 yr old looking at Playboy vs going at it with a real girl.  LOL.

Anyway, we do have creators and skinners who do not want their stuff to be in the Exclusive content, thus we honor their wishes and it goes in the open forum.

But there really is no way to ensure that the people who are getting the animations are truly adults, no matter what. Just like the pics and the playboy comments. *which I agree with*
I fully believe that it is the Parents responsibility to watch their children on the internet.
And although I commend you for trying to safegaurd your adult items, it really isn't doing any good, is it?
As someone pointed out, you can click a button that says you are 18, but no one really knows for sure.
So the idea of saying you are sub simply because adult content makes no sense to me because you can't control who lies or tells the truth.
I do want to say thank you, though, for coming around and answering questions. It shows that you really want to get your voice out there in the right way.

Your welcome.

Now let me add this;

Just because I can't apply a 100% guaranteed no minors decal over it, doesn't mean I shouldn't do my best to at least try to ensure as few minors get thru as possible, in my mind.  I'm not trying to d othe bare minimum legal requirements here, folks. I have a stake in this too.  My daughter is 8 and is starting to play the SIMs and surf the web...think about it a moment...

No, I should ahve better clarified.
I agree with you 1000% about keeping the stuff away from the children and all that. I think it's commendable and wise for you to make them register as 18.
What I'm saying, not very well, I guess...lol. Is that doing those things still cannot be your only reason for subs. If it is, that's silly because you can do all the things you already do to ensure adults are only getting to the nastsies....and still be free.
Can't you even use credit card as a way of ensuring age without charging them? I know there are a few sites out there that make you register a cc number to make sure you are 18, but then they don't charge anything at all. zip. zilch.
couldn't you do things that way?

As I stated prior, it is also about covering the costs, as well.  While we are not doing it for profit, or fame for that matter (LOL), we are still trying to cover the costs of running the site and forum, as well as providing what we do to the folks.

Okay.
But as I said earlier, too...lol...why not just free-will donation?
If your members knew that your site needed help, they would donate willingly. As would others who were just happy to help.
I know you've said you only received 2 donations prior, but if the words is really out there...and posting all about it here would do that...there would be much more attention for you.
Hecubus even has free-sites linked at Money Better Spent, advertising that they are sites run on donation-only. I don't *know*, but I'll wager that that has been good for them in bringing in their site costs.
I guess, to save myself some finger strength, I'll just ask a straightforward question that would answer all my others.
Would you even be willing to try to go free?
If people could help you find ways to protect your content from minors, would you atleast give it a try?
Put up a donation button, spread the word that you are now running on donation only status...and just see what happens?

ETA
Where'd he go? Hm. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mmekare79/doh5.gif)

Had I a credit card, I would do the free will donation and help free sites out. Thing is, my stance is that if you don't have a contract to work for EA Games, you don't need to make money from them, even if it is just to cover the cost of your site. And, to say free gift is kind of redundant. When you give someone a gift, you don't charge for it, do you? No strings or benefits attatched. But if you give them something when they give you money, that can and most often is regarded as a sale. If you guaranteed your game content, that it wouldn't bork my game, then I would think again about paying for content. But first, you would have to ink a contract with the company that makes the game. I know you make enough to keep your site open, you aren't the issue. It's the thing that many sites, such as TSR, are making cash hand over fist and being such assholes. That tends to bother me. They show all of these great looking recolours but you have to pay to get the mesh. Sorry, ain't gonna pay them when they don't have a contract with EA to sell that content. No other gaming community tolerates paying for consumer made content, why should we? And don't tell me that Sims 2 is one of the largest communities on the net, I know of some that are most likely larger. I don't have a problem with you as a person, MIKEY, in fact, I've kind of enjoyed some of your posts and statements. But, I'm not brain-washed, the pay aspect of this has bothered me for some time now and this is my way of making a stand. If some sites had a way to send in donations for bandwidth, and stayed free, I'd juggle my budget around to be able to. We're a family of three and I do know that living is expensive, but we are able to do things when we watch what we spend. I've got a three year old and God, are they expensive little critters to raise! I do my best by him because one of these days, he's gonna pick out the nursing home that I wind up in. Anyways, many sites have stuff that screws up your game and you have to pay for it. That bugs the hell outta me. As for the adult content, surely you remember the video game Leisure Suit Larry and the Lounge Lizards? You had to answer a series of questions to verify your age so that you could even play. Maybe something like that would keep the stuff out of the hands of the underaged? Seriously, my problem with paysites is that they don't have a contract to sell the stuff with the makers of the game and they expect to get paid. I have no problem with most of the people. It's the ideas that some have tried to ram down my throat. There is such a thing as a gag reflex, you know, and most of them trigger it with their credo and creations...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mmekare79/Love1.gif)

Paden I love you.

 :lol:
You always say things perfectly. I wish I had the ability to do that. It's probably something to do with my lack of patience.  :wink:
Anyway.
Yeah, I love reading your posts.

Sorry, have some RL stuff to do today...but before I take off, let me answer you this...We have been considering ways to go 'free' as your definition defines 'free'.  And we may have found a way,but we are doing some research and sampling to get the best test results.

However, whether our site goes 'free' or not, is not why I debate with thee, fair lady.  I debate with thee, as I do not condone your methods or approach, in some instances.  Not 'you' specifically, but in the general sense of the word 'you'.  LOL

Ack, now Paden made me want to go get the old dusty LSL games once again. Those were the days.

I really have nothing else to add.  :oops:

Nice to know. Thank you for answering.

And it's the Booty, eh?

What are your thoughts on that, Mikey?
I won't be so impatient this time since you're busy.  :)
You can answer whenever.

I run a small sims site with a decent amount of normal traffic, and also a fairly well populated forum from my domain. My hosting, which I recently had to bump up because the el-cheapo basic package was causing a few issues, isn't totally expensive, but I can usually get enough donations in a given month to cover it. If I get a bit over what I need, I set it aside for those rainy-day months where I don't get donations. So far, I've only had to pay out of pocket a few times over the course of this last year.

Now, some months ago, Paypal ate a big one and made an error that caused them to charge my real bank account over and over for the cost of my hosting. I don't know what happened, but though Paypal was good enough to refund whatever was taken, my bank wouldn't reverse the NSF fees, which had racked up considerably. I was able to eat a little less than half of those fees with a paycheck I had coming, and I panicked and posted a 'please help!' message on my site. Within probably four days, fans and friends had contributed enough to cover the whole thing, and I can't begin to tell you how humble, grateful and relieved I was, and astounded by the generosity of people in this community.

Another good example is Nouk, who wanted to move to a new, less expensive host but needed $60 to do it. She posted it on her site, and it was a mere matter of days before the community had donated enough to make the move. The examples of people helping site owners can go on and on, nearly everyone who runs a free site with at-will donations probably has a story of their own.

The point of all of this is that I've really never known a group of people more generous and willing to help than the people we have right here in this community. If you have a site and are genuinely in trouble financially, you'll probably be amazed to see how many people will jump in to help you out. The whole paysite thing even started because site owners realized that people were willing to help pay to keep a site running, and jumped in to make movey on that generosity. It's shameful, and it's even more of a miracle that people are still willing to help as much as they do.

So yeah, I don't really want to hear from paysite owners saying that they can't afford to cover their costs and stay free. You can, easily, by accepting donations, asking for help when new costs arise, and being honest about how much you really need. You might have to cover your own end every great now and then, but think of it as a donation to your own cause.

Ah, but (for example only) MTS2 'gives' access to a faster and better download server/service, IF you are a monthly contributor.  Thus, you are paying for a service.  WHich, don't get me wrong, I am not against, but in all fairness, let's call a spade a spade, if you will.

And unless you can say my site's credo & creations trigger your "gag reflex", I will not be lumped in with everyone else.  As of this day, the very few problems we have been advised of with our stuff, we have fixed posthaste, and to their satisfaction.  We refund sub fees if someone complains and demands their money back (for posterity's sake, this has only happened a couple of times over the years), no questions asked.

Also important to note, My wife makes and sells her own candles.  If anyone buys any amount of candles she will toss in a month's access free if they wish it.  This way we keep the balance so that we are only reaping enough to cover the costs.  Yes, we need money, but we do not want to make profit off of our friends.  We only wish to keep the service we have provided for them up and running, as well as have a way to enjoy what we  have in common.

Does that make me evil?   :(

Ah, but (for example only) MTS2 'gives' access to a faster and better download server/service, IF you are a monthly contributor.  Thus, you are paying for a service.  WHich, don't get me wrong, I am not against, but in all fairness, let's call a spade a spade, if you will.

And unless you can say my site's credo & creations trigger your "gag reflex", I will not be lumped in with everyone else.  As of this day, the very few problems we have been advised of with our stuff, we have fixed posthaste, and to their satisfaction.  We refund sub fees if someone complains and demands their money back (for posterity's sake, this has only happened a couple of times over the years), no questions asked.

Also important to note, My wife makes and sells her own candles.  If anyone buys any amount of candles she will toss in a month's access free if they wish it.  This way we keep the balance so that we are only reaping enough to cover the costs.  Yes, we need money, but we do not want to make profit off of our friends.  We only wish to keep the service we have provided for them up and running, as well as have a way to enjoy what we  have in common.

Does that make me evil?   :(

Ry - What was the problem with our booty again?  He doesn't like it?  I thought everyone loved booty!

OOOPS!  Double post Mikey - You must go to the brig!

Mickey, no, that doesn't make you evil. In the hierarchy of evil paysites, sites that are making just enough to cover costs barely register with me. I have known and liked site owners that had donation packages, and those aren't the fish I set out to fry when I want to bring down paysites. I want the big ones that are making money hand over fist as fast as they can.

However, there are alternatives, and I am always very glad to see sites with donation sets go totally free. In fact, a lot of the people here are extremely willing to lend real help whenever they can to sites that want to go free, some people can help out with free hosting, or donate enough to get the ball rolling. For pirates, people here really do a hell of a lot of giving stuff away.

For example;

Inge Jones was big Creator & Hacker who was a huge 'free' supporter.  She would offer suggestion and help to those that wished to go free.

However, due to the 'bad press' she is receiving, due to groups who support the types of tactics you folks use (no slight intended, just an observation), she has since retracted her support to going 'free'

2 things are brought to mind in this instance; 1-see what happens when one is lumped in to a single group because of the majority rule? 2-see how you also can be doing harm to the community?

edit button issues

1. Inge is a bad example. The matter of Inge vs the pirates has nothing to do with our 'tactics' or anything like that. There is a lot of bad blood there related to FFFSS, and the fact that a lot of people here didn't support what it eventually became. Most of what you are seeing is in fact fall out from an old argument.

2. Our 'tactics' aren't coordinated beyond purchasing an item and then posting it here for people to share. Most of us don't want to cause personal distress to anyone. Things like excessive harassment (trolling) and posting of personal information are frowned on by most members. If we are hurting people by asking them to consider going free, then perhaps people need to get thicker skins. Also, you would be surprised how many people come here to stir up shit. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt, don't go to a place where people are extremely outspoken and guaranteed to disagree with you.

I really don't see debate on the topic as being detrimental to the community. People need to be aware of the issue and decide what they want to do. The problem that most paysite owners are having is the fact that a large quantity are picking the side that doesn't require them to pay for anything.

Honestly, I see your point, Mikey, about the booty.
I disagree with it, though.
Yes, it may hurt the creators of these objects, but on equal terms they are hurting the community by making them pay for these objects anyways.
I'm on a personal call. Best friend in trouble. I gotta go, I'll discuss this more later, guys, K?

RL calls..da da da dum da dum!

MIKEY, I didn't lump you in with the others, now did I? I said that I had no problem with you. I said I had a problem with sites like TSR, didn't I? That wasn't fair to assume that I had lumped you in with the idiots and assholes league, when in fact that I stated that I had no problem with you. Although, I may if that keeps up. So far, I like you. I enjoy your postings. But if you're gonna make statements that indicate that what I say means less to you than a pimple on a flea's ass, I will proceed to ignore you. No cookies from my oven for you.

HEY!  I call foul and request exception!  I am being asked questions from more than one at a time.

Brig?  Is THAT what we're calling 'it' now?  LOL

liegenschonheit, you make me feel humbled by your post.  I'm not a html-jockey-have-my-own-website type a person, so I don't know the costs of hosting a website and servers and all that jazz.  It was nice to get a freesite owner's perspective on costs.  Ever since I've seen the donation drive at MTS2, I don't see the hosting cost argument either.  If your stuff is good, and people regularly troll around your site, when donation time comes, people will donate if they have the money, be it five dollars or a hundred.  I know when I get some money the first thing I'll do is donate to MTS2.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  LOL.  Again with the literal-taking.  Not meant to be aimed at you personally, but as a generalization.  Me so sorry.  Maybe it's all summed up by that old Vulcan saying, "Only Nixon could go to China"?

MIKEY!!!

P.S.  BTW, y'all mean more to me than a pimple on a fleas ass.  Really!

Okay, I'll narrow it down to your site alone.

1. Access to minors

Plenty of free sites have adult sections - and some adult content is available to your front page - you can't really tell me that people send money to you even though they don't know what they're paying for.  The free sites that have adult sections - you have to apply in the forum.  It's easy enough to watch someone tooling around and guess their age.  You could make a minimum of 50 posts or some such to really guard it.

2. Donation

If you are indeed one big family, you could ask family members to pitch in.

3. Alternative methods:

- Load images to imageshack
- Load files to 4shared, or some other site, and people can be sent the link
- Make your files fileshare friendly like Ren of Rensims did - and then there's no problem.

Mikey minors have access to your adult items because all pay items are put in the booty. Same with Pandora Sims and XXX Sims. I'm 17 and able to download for those sites but not inSimAdult or SexySims2, why? Because they're free, no pay items, no booty. Understand?

Whoa. Back the truck up.  Because someone steals a crate of guns from a gun store and makes them available to anyone, no matter the age, doesn't mean the store owner is responsible.  Understood?  And if you are 17 and downloading Adult content, I would expect your parents should be doing something about that.  As well, thank you for making my point on how my way is better to safeguard minors, than 'the booty'.

Also, because you are 'honest' about your age on Insim & SexSims, THAT is why you cannot download the content there.  If you lied (heaven forbid someone would be so immoral) you could download to your hearts content.

Your 'logic' is flawed, thus your methodology is also flawed.


And;

Calalily, we used to do that and our site was far less efficient for our members than it is now.  Thanks for the suggestions, but we have been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt.  LOL

As I stated earlier, we are not AGAINST going 'free', we are just going to do it by our own terms.  It is you methodology that we object to and find fault with.

 Back at ya.

Yes Mikey, but if I lied about my age then Kathy would know and ban me, it's really easy to find out one's age. Delphy and Kathy have both done it and banned a lot of people for it. I also said that I am ABLE to download from the booty. But if we didn't have paysites then minors wouldn't have access to it.

Also, we don't steal. So your gun example sucks. Read the EULA and sfv for that matter.



Source (http://www.simsfilevault.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2855)

We're not stealing from anyone, YOU are. :)

As for this minors argument, when I was 16 I set my MTS2 account to say I was 18, and changed it when I was 17 to say I was 18...and now I'm nearly 18 I want to actually make it back to normal so I'm NOT breaking the rules. :( I can't. It's frozen, dammit. Any chance of a boss person fixing my accout for me without banning me for my teenaged stupidity that I've been trying to rectify for a year?
But I'm still 17 on Insim. I didn't even know there was an InsimAdult until this year, lol. ;)

"Back at ya", and vice versa and all that good stuff...

Sorry, but again it all comes down to where you get your facts from.  Some say the EULA is binding because you HAVE TO click the 'I agree' button...Some say the EULA is unclear...Some say blah blah blah...we've all heard the different arguments...

Point of fact, SOME games don't give you the option of 'agreeing' to the EULA.  They just assume because you are installing it, you have agreed to it.

For sure, the company the game came from will tell you, "Oh yeah. It's binding. Really"

However, some independently polled legal reps (lawyers and such) will tell you that as there is nothing to 'sign', or because most stores will not take back an opened game, that you are coerced into accepting the 'agreement'.  Now prove to me who is right...

Okay. SO I'm telling you right here, if a bone-fide legal rep of EA tells the community "Hey, you can't do that under penalty of law!"; I'll stop on a freakin' dime.

As well, even if I am right, you are still going against the intent of the site owners, thus you, for all intents and purposes are stealing.  And even if we go with your viewpoint, 2 rights do not make a wrong.

Now.  Again I tell you, it is you methods that I scrutinize, and not your beliefs.

If this helps, the following is my viewpoint;
Beliefs can't by definition be wrong or right.  Which is why I respect yours and you should respect mine.  What should be done is fine common ground between the 2, so they can co-exist peaceably, or go to our separate corners and live with it.  I would prefer peaceful coexistence, and my belief is that this is possible.

And your example still sucks itself, my friend.  As also the last time I heard, EA had retracted that statement, which nullifies any point you try to make with it.  It also happens to throw a shadow over the whole argument.  But whether or not I am right or you are wrong, show me where vigilante justice is a good thing?  Because that is what you are doing.  EA is acting fast enough for your tastes, so you are trying to make the decision for them.

Actually, stores will take back defective and opened software.  I exchanged my Pets for a new one because one of the cds did not read properly.

As to "intellectual property" it differs from "virtual intellectual property".  There was a complete study done by the New York Law Review.  Also, you cannot copyright without express permission to claim copyright by the rightful owner.  Even though EA says that you can create custom content, they actually own the rights to it.  No one has been hired or commissioned by EA to provide intellectual property.  

As to the booty.  Look on the bright side, should you lose all your pay files, you can just get them from the booty.  :D I think of the booty as off-site file storage.  Plus, I don't consider it stealing.  Since all files are paid for and funds are exchanged, their is no written guarantee or warranty provided for the purchaser.  In real terms, if I were to buy a painting from a famous artist, that artist can say "I don't want my work hanging in a museum for everyone, it's special to me, I created it", but because I have paid for it, I am not claiming it as my own and I am not profitting from it, if I want to hang it in the New York Museum of Art, I will.  The artist has sold his right to have a say in what I do with the product I purchased.  And, I want everyone who goes to the museum to see exactly what kind of artist he is.

In fact the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) has distinct practices for E-Commerce and is a consumer advocate as well as establishing guidelines to ensure consumer protection and compensation.  According to the FTC, you must  In effect, if you photoshop items for subscription purposes you are not fairly representing your product.  This also includes "buyer beware" information such as EP incompatibility, additional meshes, package over-writing, animation issues and/or a high poly count as some examples.

For too long of a time, this community has fallen victim to unfair practices of paysites.  With no recourse of resolution, the purchaser or customer is stuck with a great percentage of unuseable or undesireable content.  I have donated my unwanted content to the booty.

Now, as to the "signing" of the agreement.  I am afraid your legal eagles are not exactly right.  Could be a country issue, but EA is a US corporation, therefore all rights are reserved as such.  When you install the game, the terms and EULA are available online and inside the packaging.   By install, you are consenting.  An example, you are driving 65 mph in a 45 mph speed zone.  You are pulled over by a policeman.  You say "Well, I didn't know the speed limit was 45" - you are still getting a ticket because the information was posted, visible but you chose not to avail yourself of the appropriate speed limit postings provided for you.  Therefore, ignorance does not preclude guilt.

EDIT:  EA is also rated for a specific age.  EA allows no adult content or fansites with adult content to be included, uploaded or linked to the Official EA Site.

Mikey please tell me what lawyer or anyone relevant to EA or the law you've talked to. I have 5 responses from EA that say paysites are wrong. Please do some more research and try again. :mrgreen:

It all depends on what lawyer yer talking to.  And that is my point.  EA needs to step up and take the reins as it is the result of their indecisiveness that this debacle exists.  The fact that EA allows it to nurture and grow is enough proof to me that is naught but a stunt to gain them more profit.

You can return defective product, you cannot return it because you don't agree with the EULA.  LOL

As well, the speed limit sign would have been posted in plain sight, and if you missed it, it was due to negligence or an obstruction.  The EULA is IN the packaging.  Thus, you do not have visibility to it until you open the package...Alas, it is too late...LOL


EDIT:  CRAP!!!  I double posted again...Ahhhh...Will you take a slightly used copy of Pac Man as penance?

Uhm, they have. That's my point. Do your damn homework and you'll know that too.

When?  I see no public announcement anywhere.  I even Googled(That sounds real dirty)

In fact, the last I heard, and this was on MTS2 itself, folks were pissed because they recanted the last known statement, and promised to make a new one soon...

Look around this site Mikey. If you're not going to do adequate research then please stfu. Search this site, search S2C, it's there. There's even a thread on this forum about EA's definition of a paysite. You've even posted on a thread about how EA has made it clear that paysites are illegal. Until you do some thorough research then God bless you. Otherwise...


(http://www.johntp.com/wp-content/uploads/stopposting.jpg)

However, within 90 days, with appropriate receipt of payment, you may return merchandise to the point of sale if the store allows for merchandise returns for incompatibility or unsatisfactory reasons - whether opened or unopened, as long as there is no damage or harm to the product inside the packaging and all manuals, cds, etc. are included and in the condition that they were sold.

On the outside of each package at the bottom is the website, address and information as to where the rights of use can be found without opening the package itself.

USED Pac Man?  What d'ya think this is - a garage sale?  Here I thought I meant more than that.  

PS - I know you did  :lol:

Hey Slayer, Mikey may have been an ass previously, but he has relinquished the crown of King Asshole Troll and he is answering questions that have been put before him and he is debating them with thought and a sense of humor.  So, could we give him a chance and there is never anything wrong with a healthy debate and some rum...ok a lot of rum

*gives Slayer some rum...and cookies*

I'm sensing a little pent up frustration and ample amounts of aggression from somewhere...Perhaps some of that Rum & Cookies you folks keep around here?   :D

SA.  I mean no disrespect, but what EA is telling you folks, and what they have told paysite owners are completely different.  Now, I'm trying to find some of the information that has been passed on to me, but I visit so many sites that I can't remember where I heard the things that I have told you.  However, I assure you that it was MTS2 folks that told me that EA has recanted there previous statements, which has nurtured their frustration at this time.  I'm sorry if this offends you so much that you require me to STFU, but it is the truth as I know it in point of fact.

Besides, I never was very good at listening to folks that try to tell me what  to do...LOL


EDIT:  OOPS!  Slayer, it looks like I stole yer pussy...Ummm...errrr...you want it back?

Mikey you obviously don't have any research skills.  :roll: You're not making a good argument so don't think that's frustrating me, it's the fact that you run your mouth without any warrant for any of it. I'm not going to waste my time doing the homework for you. You chose to be part of this debate so you need to know your shit and it's obviously that you don't know because all you're making is stupid points. I might as well debate about Windows vs. Linux because I know jack shit about that topic if you're going to be in here.

And please if you're going to shamelessly be ignorant at least make a decent joke. Seriously.   :roll:

I found me one of them thar pieces of infernalmations that you wanted to see, SlayerAngel;

(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x283/SaveTheSims/EaToolsandEula.jpg)

SimPe and the tools required for meshing and recoloring are not EA Tools and therefore not governed by the EULA in any way.

You also can make skins, walls and clothing without ever touching those programs as well.


As well, If EA does not support paysites, then why do they list, on their own site, TSR as their #1 fansite?

[/img]

Yet you completely ignored the excerpt I gave you. You're almost as bad as the person I made this thread dedicated to before you hijacked it.  :roll:

Pardon?  Gimme a freakin' break.  I'm here to argue against all of you, by myself, against folks who have made it there life mission to do what they do, and you want to tell me I'm ignorant.  LOL.  You haven't partaken of those cookies and the rum yet have you?  Or maybe you need something else to loosen you up a bit?   :D

Uhm, you ARE ignorant Michael.  


(http://www.freedomstrumpet.com/Forumhosted/lmao.jpg)

Yeah, about that...

Anyhoo, I did not ignore anything you gave me...except for maybe the bad taste in my mouth...

But it seems you ignored mine?  No comment?  I just can't believe you have nothing to run your mouth off for?   :lol:

P.S.  If your trying to get me going, it just ain't gonna happen.  There are plenty of other folks here who are willing to be at least a little unbiased and open to discussion.  It's not a discussion or debate if you simply dismiss everything anyone else says because you don't agree with it.  You haven't shown me anything others haven't shown me before, so I will not do your homework for you either, silly.

Really?  Back at ya.  Name's not "Michael".  It's 'MIKEY!!!'.  Might share me real name with ya if you ever get down off that high horse you're bound to fall off of some day.

BTW.  Real intellectual replies you've had the last few posts.  I've said it before, I'll say it again; Pot, Kettle.  Kettle, Pot.

Actually, SA, I also remember EA recanting on of their statements. I believe it's on S2C. It was in a correspondence between HP and one of the EA staff. Let me go see if I can find it.

ETA: I found it! This is a quote from post number 483 on the "Central question" thread in the paysite debate at S2C.

This is HP's quote.

What homework Mikey? EA representatives have numerous times said charging for pay content is illegal. So you're breaking the law. Get over it. Also, I'm a bitch, get over it.

If I wanted to get your goat I'd give away your items for free. That tends to piss off you pay creators. And the main reason to create the booty is to piss you guys off. But it's become more than that because of the previous events that have happened.


If you actually did research before spewing your mouth you'd know the following:

-Hair artists Peggy, Rose and others who charge money for hair meshes have stolen the meshes from Renderosity, a site that creates virtual meshes which IS copyrighted because they weren't made for a specific game. That is illegal.

-Sim Bella and Wall Sims have also stolen meshes from 3D virtual sites to make a pretty penny.

-Sasilia, owner of Pure Sims has told her customers that their donation money was going to SOS Kinderkopf, an organization that helps poor and hungry children. We later found that was a lie when she gave a false receipt to SFV hoping that they didn't have any German speakers. That is illegal.

-Rose, owner of Rosesims2.net took the bank information that her customers gave her and shared it with other paysites so they could prevent those same people from donating and putting their content in the booty. TSR has done the same thing. No matter what excuse, sharing bank information is a federal crime in almost all sovereign countries. Yup, that's illegal too.

-When artists icedMango, Ren and Sherrie left TSR they still made money off of their items even though they were supposed to be pulled. Not illegal because of the EULA but unethical.

-Bladex, owner of Pandora Sims stole the CEP from Numenor and put it up as a pay item for his own profit. He also took mods and hacks from Pescado, administrator of this forum.

Now, let's try this again.

Thank you, pineapplebrain


As for SlayerAngel;

What the hell would I want to research that for?  So what if they stole?  I haven't?  Hell, BladeX (or Blunt as I like to call him) has stolen from us.  As have a few others besides yourselves.  LOL.

Maybe you should do your homework.  Not once have I said other paysite owners and creators have ever done wrong.  That's actually laughable.  There's bad apples in every lot.  I am not naive.  So it is my turn to ask, do you read anything that I post?

I actually do like you somewhat.  The 'bitch' thing is relative.  Everyone should release their inner bitch sometime. Let it out. Get it some exercise.


EDIT:  I should also add that when I wanted to do something about BladeX, Simbella, and Gatur, not one person in the community raised a single finger to offer help or support.  So I know how selfish this community is and can be.  I want to fix THAT!

*relinquishes soap box and glugs a rum*  Hmm...Might end up getting used to the stuff yet...

But you're wondering why we're so against paysites now? That's why. There's only one bad pirate here, and that's BlackPearl. Yet there's a whole list of paysites that are ruining the community. I don't necessarily think you're one of them. I'd suggest you visit Hecubus's Money Better Spent website. And Sims File Vault.


I think it was wrong to be mean to you tonight. I also have a bacterial jaw infection so I can open my mouth wider than an inch. So I'm crabby. Sorry.

Ugh..I know that feeling. Have some rum!

LOL.  No problem.  Go grab some meds and get some rest.  Rum might help too.  And I can relate. Both our kids are sick, and me and my wife have now come down with head/chest colds and strep throat...Bah!!!

Thank you Mikey. But you should at least consider going free. And maybe apologize to Delphy for your attitude on S2C :\

Oh, we've been considering going 'free'.  It just has to meet the terms we require.  LOL.  And be acceptable to our peeps as well.

As for apologizing to Delphy, it's probably not a good idea if I talk to him...yet. LOL

MIKEY!!!

Well, I wouldn't exactly call it a recant per se, but it is definitely wishy-washy. Which is why I agree with one of your earlier statements, MIKEY, that EA won't make any definite decisions or statements until they've decided for themselves which side (if any) will cost them the least and make them the most. Frankly, I have a feeling that they love the status quo and really couldn't care less. At least I think you made a statement like that. Sadly, everything I look at has been disappearing into foggy mists 10 minutes after I read it, lately. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I promise I won't whine if I am).

This is why I think that people here and elsewhere have to make a stand for what they think is acceptable and necessary (and I'm not making any moral judgements here as that is a really slippery slope, as we've all seen in this discussion and others on the board). I don't like the idea of paysites and wonder why they are so accepted by people who download Sims CC, and most (but not all, I will admit) of the time I think their existence is solely connected to greed.

Crap, I totally just made a moral judgement...sigh.



Everyone starts to love it in time, MIKEY. :lol:

Seriously Mikey, you should at least do some basic research first.  If you actually read the EULA, the very first part explains what that "tools created by EA" you underlined refers to:  the GAME

Electronic Arts Inc, and its subsidiaries, affiliates and licensors (collectively, "EA") grants you a non- transferable non-exclusive license to download and/or install and use one copy of the software tool ("Tool") and/or materials ("Materials") (collectively the "Tools & Materials") solely for your personal noncommercial use in connection with EA's products, in accordance with the terms below.

EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials.

You may not alter any of EA's trademarks or logos, or alter or remove any of EA's trademark or copyright notices included in or with the Tools & Materials or EA's products. Your right to use Tools & Materials is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Tools & Materials.

Without limiting the preceding sentence, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, create works from, or sell the Tool, or use the Tools & Materials to further any commercial or unlawful purpose.


Simply put, this is what everyone agrees to by installing the game:
1) You may install one copy "for your personal noncommercial use "
2) "EA owns all of the rights, title and interest" to ALL that derives from it
3) You may not "further any commercial purpose" by the game


I honestly do not understand how those 3 basic points at the beginning of the EULA can be misunderstood.

4)you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, distribute

LOL.  This game can be played by all.   :P

Read it again, it does not specify the 'game' at all...Sorry, but implications are not statement of fact, and are self defined by each who reads it.  There is more than one way to interpret that EULA, and it is exactly the problem.

But that is neither here nor there...and I'll say why again...I'm not here to argue that line...I disagree with your methodology and practices. But I'll still respect y'all in the morning... :wink:

It is not irrelevant, as retired judge or not, unless you live in a dictatorship, which I do not, the lay-persons have a voice.  And that voice has been known to argue, debate, or even appeal laws due to their not being defined well enough so as to not hinder, misdirect, or belay interpretation.  In other words, implication is not a tool, or part in structure, of contractual agreements or the law.  Now that being said, I do know, from experience, that implication is indeed a tool of lawyers, barristers, solicitors, and judges.  

Regardless of your past standing, career or otherwise, you are not above reproach, and I am entitled to question you whether you say so or not.  As well to be noted, judges also have been known to make mistakes...as noted by your spelling errors...LOL

Now grab some of that Rum you folks have been pushing on me and loosen up, old feller.


EDIT:  You, also, are interpreting the EULA to align with your personal views on this issue...  

Geez. Where's Ben Matlock when ya need him?

Your files were fileshare friendly at some stage?



Actually that's wrong.  If you look in the back of your EA booklet that comes with every ep - there is a 7 day warranty on the game.  Like armywife, my Seasons wouldn't install, and I was able to return it the next day, and swap it - no questions asked.



I have a far better memory than you - the statements made about simpe to Hysterical Paroxysm's letter will be clarified, but at no time has Nouk's confirmation that filesharing is fine been withdrawn.



No rum for paysite owners - sorry. That's a pirate and freesite owner privilege.



Bad form to point out spelling mistakes - this is not Microsoft Word - and you are not our teacher or parent.

Seeing as Jarhead is a retired judge, and you have the lawyer you pulled out of your arse, I'd be far more inclined to not call Jarhead's statements into question.  I interpreted it the same way - criminologist with some basic legislation classes, and contract classes.

Sorry to go off topic here but I am just amazed: we have an actual retired judge here!  :shock:  And there's teachers, lots of teachers, and people are related to teachers - my goodness, I just realized I am related to a teacher!  :lol: What else do I not know about my fellow pirates?  :oops:

I am a former U.S. Naval officer, former corporate trainer (Human Resources Development ;-) ) and former Professional Bridal Consultant (TM). Now I am a grant coordinator at a university, getting ready to start substitute teaching in September. I can hardly wait to go home and sit on my ass while hubby brings home the bacon.

What about you?

Right, I shouldn't forget about the military people.  :wink:

Me? Oh, I'm just a short female-hacker with author aspirations. Nothing fancy.

Mikey, that is basic 'legalese' to say 'dont mess with the stuff'.  
Its pretty standard.

But notice, EA put in a further line:
"Without limiting the preceding sentence..."
(then the part again about no commercial profiting)


EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials.

this means that paysites do not own, nor can they claim ownership of anything that comes from, anything to do with the files.  Selling files is a violation of the above rights since paysite owners hold no legal right/title/interest to anything that is in package form.


There has been explanations regarding tacit approval already mentioned, reading a bit more will illuminate further.

Additionally, there is  de facto approval and  de jure approval;
do not confuse the two, which I sense is going on in your arguments.

Yup.  Right up until the community screamed that having an "I agree that I am 18..." disclaimer wasn't good enough to try to keep minors out of our adult content...





'Warranty'; Will accept return in the eventuality that there is something wrong with the product.  And I have actually tried to return software to both WalMart, Future Shop, and The Source, and were told that once the package was opened, they were not liable to accept returns; "Well you could have copied it already", was the usual reasoning...






Actually, then your memory is flawed, because I recall seeing an actual screenshot of an email, or PM between someone and EA stating that they should not compound the issue by uploading/sharing others creations on the Exchange...I'll see if I kept it...





Sorry. Your too late.  Rum has already been availed upon my person by your esteemed colleagues...





Still does not take away from my argument.  "the lay-person" has all the same rights, if not more, to question as they see fit, if they do not agree, or see fault with a legal interpretation or law.  I was in no way insulting his spelling ability, so my apologies if that was the context it was taken in.  I was merely pointing out that we are all flawed, or have erred, thus he cannot say 'I am a retired judge so do not question me'.

  As for the "Lawyer I pulled out of my arse"; (and I say this as nicely as possible) Don't question my sources and opinions if you won't let me question yours. You are not the end-all-be-all of information.  You are not always right.  If you are truly as 'enlightened' as you believe yourself to be, allow for the possibility, at least, that you can be wrong about something.  In other words, don't be so freaking close-minded.  Or the fact that you say you are willing to debate the issue is a farce, and your motives are other than that.

Perhaps you may realise that you are not always right; especially about having a paysite.

Perhaps you will allow for the possibility that you are wrong.

Perhaps you are the one that shouldnt be so "freaking close-minded".

Perhaps you will realise that you are really not interested in a "debate", with the implied understanding that the opposition may be correct.

Perhaps the one with "motives other than that" lies not with people here, but within yourself.


People have stated on numerous occasions the reasons why they think paysites must be destroyed, starting with the EULA.  You have given contrary opinions.   Frankly, I see nothing more to say: you hold a contrary position after looking at the same evidence, and reading the reasons why...what more needs to be said?

As to a 'debate', each may give his/her position based on factual reasoning, but at the end of the day that's all that's left.  I really dont see anyone here slapping their foreheads and exclaiming 'gee, Mikey was right and I was wrong, paysites are good'.....at the same time, I dont see you admitting paysites break the EULA, are harmful to the community, and are more concerned with greed than goodness.



And the personal opinion of a simmaster or even a maxoid simply cannot void an ongoing point of the EULA: "EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials."  The moment EA says that what Mikey made belongs to Mikey, then that is the moment they surrender the rights to their own creations, and that isnt gunna happen.

Very well said, Yaardarm Monkey.

Mikey, I think you're too stubborn...lol.

Instead of going on the defensive, I want you to answer me some questions, once again...lol.

1. Considering one maxoid says EA has/will retract...balh blah blah...and EA itself still has not changed their EULA, why do you still think that that one person is worth believing over the EULA?

2. If EA comes out and says, look people! We've answered all these questions you've been asking us in the EULA and NO you cannot make profit off of the items you make for our game *which it clearly states in the EULA anayway*...what would you do? What would your stance be then?

3. Do you really believe that simply because the law is murky in this area, according to some, that that small grey area makes it okay? I feel that taking advantage of that grey area shows an utter disrespect for both EA and the community. How do you feel about that?

There are more Q's I have, but the baby isn't napping yet, so I'll be back again at you later. Beware.  :twisted:
 :lol:

*is so scary, right?*

And hey, maybe if you answer my questions I'll bring more boobehs.

ha.

Perhaps you need to read the posts I have placed in here over the last few days in order to better gauge what I am here to talk about before you continue to question or challenge me.

Maybe it will make it easier for you to understand what I am here to debate if I tell you this; "I MAKE NOTHING FOR THE SIMS, I DON'T PLAY THE SIMS.", and the rest I will not repeat, yet again.

And maybe all you need is some more of that Rum you all love so much?

First, sorry if I double post.
Second, one should never play with the promise of boobies...LOL
I'll hold you to the boobies...or something like that


Oh, how can I answer your questions...Hmmmmm?  Wait!  I know...

Please read what I have said prior...But in the interest of possible boobies, let me summarize;

I believe we charge for the service. (Yes there is special content as a reward, but it is in the name or 'minor security')

I don't believe a group of folks that operate in the 'grey area' have the where-with-all to question whether I think I am operating in the 'grey area'(and yes, I spell grey with an 'e'.  I'm Canadian, Damnit!!!)  LOL
Really, folks.  Morality is subjective to the individual(s) using it.  We both believe ourselves to be 'right' therefore our morality reflects our respective beliefs.  In your mind you're heroes, in my mind you've stolen from my people.  So for this question we are going to have to agree to disagree...at least until the interpretation becomes more standard or EA grows some balls...

IF EA ever comes out and officially states clearly what their standing is, I will immediately cease charging for access to the adult content.  And at that time the adult content would become unavailable to the community until such a time that I could find a way that appeals to me to reasonably safeguard it from availability to minors.  At that time, I would also hope that PMBD has enough honor in them to also remove our files, specifically the adult ones, from 'the booty', in order to comply with our wish to keep them out of children's hands.

1. "continue to question or challenge me"  
= What the heck?  Maybe that Ceasar shtick works on your forum...
If you noticed, I was using your own words, so yes, I did read your posts.

2. You may not make anything, you may not play the sims...
 but you sell things for the sims.

3. No more rum, I have enough thank you.

4. I find that a perfectly reasoned and considered post is tossed aside by you in a flippant and puerile manner.  Again.

Dont bother with another one of your less than witty retorts; I shall not bother to read any more of your trollish and invective missives.

Sure - got a screenshot or reference?



Actually, I've returned a Playstation game - based on flawed coding in the game where you could fall through the walls and end up passing a new level - so it can be done - you're just not persistent enough - or rather you're not interested.



Until I see proof - Nouk's letter stands.  And I doubt I'll see proof, so I won't hold my breath.



Rum privileges hereby revoked - from one of the long time members.



They might question, but that doesn't mean they're right.  Many a lawyer shakes his head at the foolishness of plaintiffs who reckon they're right, and persist long after they're told they're wrong.  



Don't try and back away from that - you've spent a great deal of time insulting other people's intelligence, and trying to make out we are all idiots.  I'm not fooled by you trying to dodge your shabby behaviour.



You have troubles paying for bandwidth, but can afford the $1000 retainer to a lawyer for consultation?

As for my sources, if I was willing to reveal my real name, you could check on my sources - and the classes I've done.  You'd definately find my name as a presenter at criminology conferences.  I'm not willing to reveal my real name because from there, it's a hop, skip and a jump to my phone number, my workplace and all kinds of information.

As for being wrong, well, not one of the people I've debated with have ever given any proof that they are right - and I'm willing to give ground if they are right.  Rather they talk of nebulous screenshots that no one else has seen, proof from EA they don't have, and neglect.  My point of view, however, contains actual screenshots from EA.

mikey, after your two last posts, I completely confused. I am a fairly intelligent person, and I don't understand why you are trying to achieve by coming here and 'debate' as you call it.  You need to change your wording and explain, because I am completely confused. It's common courtesy to try to explain when someone don't understand what you are saying, so don't tell me to re-read your posts. I am being completely honest here.


1. Why are you here in the first place?
2. What's your goal with your site?
3. Why are you being so stubborn?

These are reasonable questions. Now, if you could answer them in a short, direct and pedagogical manner...

Interesting reading in here  :D

I don't think MIKEY!!! is really arguing over EULA or what he thinks is every one's own interpretation of it is.

He said he doesn't like our methodology, how PMBD does things.  I think he is here because PMBD is sharing files from his site which were bought and paid for by a PMBD member. Who do have the right to share it after that paid for it.

So MIKEY!!! why don't you think we have the right to share what was paid for?

Mikey how about having each downloader make an account with your site? I think that'd be much more effective because it hasn't let Decorgal, inSimenator, or MTS2 down. You can also prevent file leeching by banning members that steal files from you.

I am sorry if this has been said before but... The very cornerstone of contract law is that is to legally articulate an agreement between two parties.  If there is not an agreement or meeting of the minds then there isn't a contract.  Usually the two sides come together though negotiation; however a usage contract is something quite different.  Since EA doesn't leave the door open for negotiation, the contract really is a take it or leave it one, and since EA is setting the terms of the contract it is their and their only interpretation that sets the meaning of the contract.   If you do however make a good faith effort to understand the contract but for whatever reason what you think the contract means is far different then what the writer (EA) believes it is, all a judge can do (barring parts of the contract being illegal) is declare that there was no meeting of the minds and rule the contract invalid.  This only requires the writer of the contract to refund your money and you to return the software and destroy derivative works.   Never would EA be bound to your interpretation of the contract ever.

Sorry, folks.  But this Head/Chest cold is kicking the shit outta me.  Hopefully I feel better tomorrow and can answer your questions.  At most I'm hoping I feel better in a couple of days.  I've had it since Sasturday already, thought it would go away...

Ah'll be bahk!!!

MIKEY!!!

Mikey,

Before you end up banned for necromancy and trolling I thought I would try to help you see the light. The whole thing seems completely obvious to me but here goes my attempt at over simplification:

For some reason reason paysite owners want to cling to this notion that their precious art is ALL that is being sold and that just isn't the case. Your 'product' is a .package file and it belongs to EA. If you want to sell .jpgs and wire models (the 'art') go right ahead, but you cannot OWN a .package file and therefore cannot SELL one.

Additonally, EA HAS stated that all .package files are shareable. So, while you MIGHT be able to get by on some "I sell access" BS to justify your charging people, once the packages are taken from your site they are in the world to be shared.(Because you don't own them  :wink: )  Selling access and not a 'product' forfeits any claim of 'ownership' of any .package files you have in members only areas. You CAN NOT have it both ways.

(To everyone: God, can you imagine the horrific customer service end of selling the raw files for sheeple to assemble themselves?!  :shock: )

P.S. Mikey, You do REALIZE that while it may be true that you don't use or play The Sims but that SimPE use for profit is also techically illegal? Reverse Engineering and all. Besides, are you suggesting that NO ONE in your organization uses The Sims Body Shop? And if so are you also telling us that none of your 'products' have been tested in game?!

If he is attempting to do so, a quick glance at the home page http://www.mandmneedfulthings.ca/S2_Entrance.htm prooves that to be inaccurate. The very first photo was taken in BodyShop.

Mikey, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, partially because you've been waffling a lot on whether you think it's ok to charge for .package files. You haven't waffled on whether it's right to charge for access to adult material in the general sense. On this we agree, in theory. However, you cannot separate the two, and using the fact that you are only charging for access to adult material to justify charging for .package files just doesn't cut it.

For a child to get a credit card is ridiculously easy. I know many parents who give their children gift cards, usable exactly like a Mastercard or Visa, for Christmas or birthday. They can then use these to go to a store and buy some yummies, or can go online and buy virtual goodies. Using these types of cards for virtual goodies is quite common...why do you think all these MMORPGs can be "free"? They rake it in at the cash shop, where kiddies buy points with mom & dad's paypal account, mom & dad's credit card, or the $50 limit Mastercard gift card they got for their 14th.

Can we agree that charging for access does not prevent access by under 18's?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mmekare79/sexy1.gif)

There's your boobehs for answering.

But, Mikey. I have to say, that people wouldn't be asking you the same questions over and over if you were able to better explain the answers. It's the same stuff with no real details that you keep giving us.
All of the *unspecific* answers you give, are basically the same stuff everyone else says, and people want to know what Mikey thinks, not the sheeple.  :D
Unless those are really all you've got, then I guess you're a sheeple too.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mmekare79/smileys/TEASIN1105.gif)

Hope you feel better soon, and your family as well!!

As I have stated before, where we live is rather affluent.  There are kids (not mine) who at 14 have credit cards or the debit/credit cards, not to mention retail as well.  (I get flack because my kids have cell phones).  I had an Amex at 17 and a gas card in my name under my social.  

However, Mikey has said that the site he owns voted to keep some content pay.  I don't know if this was an underage issue or not, I don't remember.

Hope you and your family feel better soon.  And don't come back all pissey either, you got boobehs didn't ya?

Ok, here it is in a nutshell;

We used to have 100% free content.  Adult stuff as well.  We did have the "I am 18 yrs or older' disclaimer button, but apparently at that time it was not enough.  We were regularly raked over the coals by members,  prospective members, and members parents.  Numerous emails from parents; wish we had kept them now, but didn't see a need then.

Anyhoo, at that time, we polled our members and mods, and the access sub for the Adult content was born, by consensus.  All the while we were looking for ways to make the stuff 'free' and still maintain the level of success at keeping minors at bay, that we were now experiencing.

So...So far we have found nothing that measures up, BTW...

Anyhoo...we decided that as we did not want to profit off the folks, and because our site was growing pretty good and we could not really afford the costs associated, we would apply the sub fees to the costs.  This worked out well, and kept us from having to close the sites, and continue to make the friends we were.

Now that all being said, I wish to add something that I really don't have a need to tell you, but am going to in the spirit of honesty and integrity;

We have been working on a plan to go 'free' (possibly donation) for the past few months, but when we rcvd emails basically telling us to go free or else,...well let's just say I don't respond well to bullies.

MIKEY!!!
"Jesus healed the sick, walked on water. He never said, "Take my children unto your lands, Bravo Tango, One Four. We got bogies at 1 o'clock. They have forsaken me, FIRE!"[/i]

If you need any help going free, let me know. I'm not good at much but I learn fast.

And who were the e-mails from?
*glad you feel better and your family too*

Mikey,

I'll second what Ry just said. I'm no expert, but I learn quickly, so let's see what we can do if we all team up.

1) Let's figure out what you need in order to go free. Are we talking hosting? Is it a question of keeping adult content away from minors? Is it both? Or are there other issues too.

2) Tell us a little more about those emails. As in who were they from and what exactly did they say (yes, I'd like quotes). I take it you're not talking about Hecubus's emails, because I don't think there were any '... or else' in them.

Moune!  You're out of the erm....closet?  Yeah!  Moune is awesome!!

Edit:  I just read your sig, and cracked up.  It reminded me of "The artist formerly known as Prince"  Sorry, I am ultra goofy today  :lol:

I really do appreciate the offers, folks, and may take you up on some advice and such...

But let me finish what we are working on, and see how that is going to work first, and then we'll see.  Should have it nailed down in about 2 weeks or so...

Although, due to Pescado's comment in the other thread, I really don't think anything we were/are/could do, is going to result in our files being removed from the booty, so I really don't see how it matters to PMBD itself.  Which is in all reality, a very, very sad commentary indeed.

MIKEY, that wasn't fair. It's been proven time and again that when a paysite becomes a freesite, their items are no longer in the booty. They are released because they are available to the public free of charge. Yeah, folks may have to join a site, but they don't have to fork over. If/when you go free, your files will no longer be on his bandwidth.

Ok well, I had something to add to this topic but I forgot. I also forgot the sentence I was going to type in the place of this one. BUT I can tell you that everything I had to say made sense. I did remember one question I had: Mikey why are you dragging this all over the board when you have a damn thread?

Moune FTW! Steppin' out of the dark of the closet and into the light!
Rum and Juicy Juice for the MASSES!

Mikey you are whining again. ;)

We do not keep free files in the booty. If your site goes 100% free, you are considered a liberated site and your files are also liberated from the booty. :)


Keep in mind though any files that are pay in any way will stay, so it is better to just got 100% free, that way we don't have to keep any files up. ;)



and please stop whining, I told you last night it was so unbecoming. LOL

You guys, that was some major back pedaling on Mikey's part! They refer to said files on their site as PAYFILES. They aren't even humble enough to call them donation files over there. Where, BTW, you can indeed view some very poorly made crotchless numbers (barf) without any type of age verification and all the chit chat takes place in The Hot Tub, for adults only...(double barf). Seriously, it's like one of those super cheese 'swinger' forums and the Sims content they do have behind the iron curtain is CLEARLY for sale. Do not let him fool you.

And to yourself, Mikey~ How dare you call into question ANOTHER person's morality while pedaling such FILTH?! (And I refer much more to the quality than it's adult nature there  :lol: ) You have kids, you said so yourself when you were bashing Delphy. But somehow the activities of The Hot Tub somehow being accidently accessed by your six year old is of no matter to you, the responsible parent that you clearly are :roll:

Also, you whined in the other thread about no one answered you here. I posted to you, by name, as in DIRECTLY and somehow I got no response to my comments. Any chance you aren't here to actually solve any problems or issues in the community? :shock:

Silly FrenchOnion. Of course not.  He was happy here with the idea of the "fatigued" site owner, pluckily fighting the pirates, but if the questions get tough, he does a bunk - hence the explosion and the dodging.

I so agree with you about MIKEY's content - and the "cheesy swinger" tone.  I often download a creator's stuff from the booty when they annoy me, but no amount of annoyance could bring me to download his crap.  Feels dirty.  :x

:lol: French Onion, it does get worse than this.. About four years ago, I was in his group and an "evil paysite owner" pissed him and Mal off by selling his beds illicitly.. This you can understand.. They proceeded to yell at them for something like six months or a year, this you can understand..

But when they did a sexual animation for the game where the Sim got to spank the owner, and I am no kidding a box came up going "do you want to pretend to be the ownere of Emerald Sims estates" and the Sim pretending to be Donna strips naked and they spank her.. I felt that might have been overdoing it slightly. But maybe that's just lil' ol me..

And anyone who does that to another human being, has no cause for yelling at Pescado for being a scummy human being, as much as Pes enjoys it. :lol:

Mikey, that was a strange answer. Are you going to go free or are you not going to go free? Because like it's already been pointed out, if you go free all your files will be liberated from the Booty, and I think you know that. You are not just trying to gain some undeserved sympathy, are you? Or playing 'head games' like good ole Jan?

AW, Redlove: Thanks. *takes a bow* Feels much better to be my real self here. I was beginning to develop an identity crisis, and I really didn't want to end up like Prince with funny drawings all over my face.  :lol:

Moune, you little stinker... Now I feel confounded and silly, but what the hell, you're here and you're yourself, so all is well and good on the high seas!

Paden, I take that as a compliment. Thanks  :wink: Here, have some rum. I kept a few bottles for a special occasion like this.  :D

Funny how so many pro-paysiters rely on the dodge and other such childish methods of never dealing with reality.  I wonder why. :lol:


Angha Tyl:  :shock: Wow! People be havin' some 'issues' there... :shock: I feel sad for you having to have that memory at all. Rum. :P

I'm not pro-paysite, but I like dealing with my reality half an inch at a time.

Half an inch at a time, eh? I'm so NOT commenting...

Ewww....I so did not want that image in my head.

BAD DUCKY!

Pes, thanks alot for making a hazy and indistinct image in my mind, I was worried that it was going to bother me all night. Then Duckie had to go and make it solidify and now I know it's going to be another all-nighter for me... Gah! I will get you for that, you waterfowl! Oooooh, such an evil and foul waterfowl.... And liegenschonheit, that new avatar is totally cool, I really got a good laugh when I paused long enough to watch all of it!
Pes, you come up with some of the funniest and rudest shit... I think that's why I respect you so much...

*Falls out of chair laughing*

Glad to oblige, Paden and Lieg.
Do you really think I'd have kept that mental image to myself?
Oh no....  8)

*drinks a slug of rum and grabs a duck to sit on, getting comfy* Ok, let's examine why you thought you had to share that with us... Is it the fact that you have a hard time sleeping and wanted to share your affliction? Or could it be the idea that somehow, your Barbie dolls didn't love you near as much as they loved the family pet? Could it be some mistaken idea that the gophers that dig up your lawn are all wearing tin foil helmets so as not to be under the mind control of Thomass and his band of sick cohorts? Have you been maybe reading too many issues of bad fanfiction of whatever genre? Maybe you feel inadequate to dealing with the strain of post-nasal drip? Has someone threatened your pet tonberry in the past thirty days? Did Lindsey Lohan fall over your prized begonias and break the pot they were in when she was on a rampage? Has your pet dust bunny been caught in a plot to kill you and your family, hoping to take over the home you live in and spread it's influence to the rest of the world? Do you just feel betrayed by that damp feeling you have when you get out of the shower and realize that you have to dry off before you dress? Is this close to the reason why you felt that you had to poison what rest I may get in the next few hours before a raging three and a half year old male child wakes my up by trying to pull out my nose hair one by one? Or are you just one of those eeeeevil ducks that likes to hide in a blind and shit on hunters as they hide in their own in the dawn's early light and make sure that you hit their open coffee cup? Either way, I can respect that... Still, you're an evil red duckie, no matter how you try to hide it! You can't, I tell you, you just can't! Oh, I checked out some of your stuff and downloaded it, love that spooky picture btw.

Paden, you're over-analyzing things and you talk too much.

Glad you like the stuff. That pic is one of my favs. :D

Oh, and if the boy-child is getting close enough to wake you by pulling your nose hairs out - you didn't use enough duct tape. :wink:

*groan* You have no idea.. I wish I didn't remember that particular memory, at the time they put us through an unbeleivable amount of trauma, then when they go pay shortly later it's like..wait, what?

I prefer Pes anyday.. he may be a mongrel, but he doesn't make excuses for it.

Hi Sue,

No offense meant by this post, because we've always managed to discuss things together amicably before....

But I'm wondering how you can argue for respect for TSR after what they did to me there? Were they even remotely respectful of me? I don't think so.  Did they respect Sherrie and her right to have a separate site of her own like you and Chrissie have and Atwa has?

Like people on here have been telling you respect goes both ways. If they can't respect us why should we respect them?

netseeker2

Necromancy is bad, m'kay?  Beware of cat macros.

Tim

Netseeker, Neptune Suzy left our forum when she was outed with that screenshot that proved she was a LIAR!

Ahhh...

Ok thanks for the info. I was waiting for her to reply to me about that because I was going to remind her that we (her & I) started talking based on this very issue after she sympathized with me in a PM, after the way I got treated by the mods for posting a post in a public forum on TSR.  She basically said that the mods would probably do the same to her too if they could get away with it, but since she was an FA on there, they didn't.

Beating the proverbial dead horse, are we?

Well see it's like this.... If you only joined this site a few days ago, you aren't up to speed on who's here and who's left yet.... So I wasn't beating any horse alive or dead that I knew about....

You could have PM'ed her. But that wouldn't have drawn attention to your own little agenda, would it?

Your post was pointless and repetitive and you are annoying me. Go away.

What MizzKitty is referring to is that this thread is over a month old.  Kinda obvious that it is a dead horse.

I could've PM'd her? On here? (If she's not here as I've been told what good would that do?) Or on TSR? If you're referring to TSR, haven't you heard???? I've been banned and can't get in there to PM anyone.  And why would I PM someone to discuss what's being said in a thread where it's quite obvious no one else PM'd them? - Otherwise there wouldn't be a public forum thread.

Anyhow it's obvious which side you're on, so I wonder why I'm even wasting my valuable time talking to a Thomas in drag.

Time for kitties yes, please?

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/Requip/straw.jpg)

You're an idiot.

1) At that time you did not know she was not on here, did you?

2) It's an old thread. Instead of performing necromancy you could have asked her directly - unless you of course knew she wasn't available and just wanted MOAR attention.

3) Yeah. I bet everyone on here will tell you how I've always been TSR's number one fangirl.

Edited for quote.

The arguing is pointless and will only cause more headache. I'm with Requip but instead of kitty:

MOAR PUPPY!

(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p183/RedlovesPirates/comboverdog.jpg)

(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/keirra1983/Lol%20Dogs/0000000.jpg)

Sure looks like you're the number one fan girl to me!

AFTER my post to NS Kierra informed me much politer than you did of course that she was no longer here. To which I replied to Kierra, I was waiting for Suzy to reply so I could talk to her more about stuff.

IF this is such an old thread why is it at the top of the forum titles when you come in here? I'm not the one that  put it there by posting in it. It was there at the top when I came in here. Thinking because it was at the top it was a recent-ish thread, I posted in it. So bite me.

(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/keirra1983/Lol%20Dogs/busy.jpg)

Sorry but I am so lost. At the top, Where? I have never even seen this thread before.

Gah I am confused, oh well I think I have a macro for that.


(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1038/1408430883_c42ce830dc_o.jpg)

Yeah...um...you know what? Netseeker, you're committing necromancy all over the place here. Sure, you have things to add. Thoughts to share. But you can see from the date on the post above when a thread has been dormant for more than a month.

We really frown upon necromancy unless you have a major breaking story that adds significant information to a thread. The chances of Suzy coming back here to see if anyone's added anything to this thread at this point are slim to none...surely you would realize that.

And you should know from being here for a week that you aren't gonna get any sympathy for breaking rules that we state in the FAQ.

I KNOW you're excited to be free from TSR. I KNOW you're excited to discover the anti-paysite movement. That's fine. We're glad for the information and energy.

But follow the rules, m'kay?


(And I can't imagine why you would jump to "Thomas lover" from "necromancy's bad"....that's WAY out of line and WAAAAAAY overreacting.)

Thus sayeth ol' Mama Hecubus.

(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p183/RedlovesPirates/000cqcae-1.jpg)

Okay thanks Hecubus,

When someone talks civilly to me, I respond in fashion (personally I've had enough BS directed at me at TSR - so when someone starts that crap with me  now no matter where it is, they're looking for it). But if they talk to me like Kierra did to which I explained why I posted in here and would've left it at that had I not been verbally attacked again, that would've been the end of it.  Kierra explained politely and I understood that and there was no problem there. Until MK came along spouting abuse at me - and I'm sorry but I don't take that kind of crap from anyone any more.  So I thank you for taking the time to explain things in a civilized and kind manner too and shall leave it at that.

Suzy...A faint, but disturbing memory.   Let us all have rum and have kittehs!

(http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1168702253-1167572904128.b.jpg)

Don't mind us, I get all excited & happy when it's time to post kitties.  :roll:

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/Requip/coffee.jpg)

Yep, nothing personal we all just love caturday.

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1328/1408432637_75570988ce_o.jpg)

(http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1163920512-1163878073731.b.jpg)

(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/keirra1983/Lol%20Cats/6a.jpg)

Yay. kitteh time

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee181/irishwenches/macros/61.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/shannis75/Cats/spacehatch.jpg)

(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/Purplepooki/Caturday/shh-i-neaked-you-a-file.jpg)

(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/keirra1983/Big%20Cats/ba32.jpg)

My very own kitty!

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p306/mizzekatten/Kitties/Evilkitty.jpg)

This thread fills me with a wave of depression.  I would like nothing more for it to die a thousand deaths like the "truth?" thread of all the Delphy propaganda.  They both keep coming back up like a bad habit the phorum can't kick.  I'm surprised that damned lyric lee thread hasn't came back up as well--don't get any ideas. x.x  Unless the person the thread is about comes here and wants a round, those dang threads should be in hell. HELL:!: :shock:   /emo rant

Eeeep!!! Don't mention the Lyric Lee thread, missangelica! (Is it already too late? Do we need to run for our lives?)

The only way I've found to stop these threads is to start up arguments about old and/or new movie monsters. I would, but I'm all out of suggestions at the moment (Leprechaun vs. The Gremlins? See, all out).

Are you psychic, Miss A? Cause it's Baaaack!

 :shock:

That was just too creepy. As for movie monsters how about Godzilla vs Mothra? Or Freddy vs Jason?
ETA: I like Freddy.

Yep I am willing to bet that whoever posted that BS in the lyric thread did so after reading that. Of course I am just stating the obvious though.

Yes!  Redlove FTW!

Tim

My ankles hurt.

(http://www.sonofthesouth.net/uncle-sam/images/funny-office-poster.jpg)

My message to trolls and paysites...

*headdesk*  Irony of all ironies.. trolls actually read and it's what you don't want them to.

Have you never heard of the phrase "Speak of the devil and he shall appear" - this is all your fault angelica.  :D

Now for kittehs.

(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1376/mc10549sx0.jpg)

Please forgive me. I'm going through a Heroes/BGalactica macro phase right now:
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u208/liverspout/catz/lolh-sylarhed.jpg)

Does that apply for God too, Calalily?  If trolls are the devil then that must make Pescado god in this phorum.  We could really use some justice in the form of locking down some choice threads.  Oh wait, don't lock the threads.  *wink*

Godzilla would kick all their asses  :twisted:

Oo! Galactica macros FTW!!!

I lurve that show!!!

Heroes is pretty cool too, but nothing, nothing compares to my love to BSG.

Feverish, where can I find my own BSG macros?

I used google to find them. They mostly came from blogs or lj communities.

Yes - we have them - the booty gods, who bring gifts to their people everyday.

Pescado is insufficient in his modly duties.  I think he has failed us for the macros.

*tries to stare into the monitor to find calily's face and judge whether she's actually being serious or not*  Erm, no.  Just, no.

Ehem.

*points to self as example of booty god*

You can bow down anytime now....

 :twisted:

I be inscrutable.  :D




I can't do it for fear of the universe exploding.  At this point in time, you are worshipping me, so therefore, if I worship you, it will create an infinite loop, and time will stand still.  The mass of our awesomeness combined with in fact create a huge centre of gravity, and universe splodey.

If there was ever a piece of evidence why I DO worship cala, this is it.

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/MusicalMaven/LOLcatz/hampsterrofl.jpg)

I guess we'll leave the worshipping for the others then...to maintain balance and order in the universe.

My lub my booty gods though - and not for the booty - I never use it anyway.  :D (Best I can do - no kiss smilie - Pescado fails in the emoticons too).

There's always the do-it-yourself smilies:
^.^  
= kiss   :P

I wish I remembered them - I just never do.

Pescado remains insufficient.  :D