You know the funny thing...

[avic]

I just want Spore... I admit it, that game has me salivating.

[jesserocket]

Yeah, Spore's gonna be either absolutely the most incredible thing that has ever happened to gaming or....well, it doesn't bear thinking of.

There. Now no-one will ever know!!!

[spookymuffin]

Yeah, Spore's gonna be either absolutely the most incredible thing that has ever happened to gaming or....well, it doesn't bear thinking of.

Dont jinx it!

[liegenschonheit]

It's been a hectic weekend, so I missed out on this whole thread from the beginning, but I must say it's a debate that I very much approve of and strive to begin on other forums sometimes.  Bravo Avic for comming here with an open enough mind to begin a debate that doesn't degenerate (too much) into name calling and crying.

It is very much a gray area with EA and the community right now, they allow paysites and even link to them on the exchange, but they also allow files from those sites to be shared on the exchange. Obviously while they have no problem stating that they own the content, they are leaving it up to the community to sort the whole issue out.

As for who legally owns the stuff, thats an easy answer. EA does, they could take every bit of custom content that any of us created, never pay us a dime, and put it all in the next EP. I sincerely hope they wouldn't do something like that, but they could. The rest of it gets fuzzy. Based on ethics, which side is right? Is it the pay sites that contend that because they made it, they have the right to charge for it? Or is it the filesharers who contend that because EA has said that the files themselves cannot be charged for, only bandwidth, distribution is kosher?

The thing is, paysite owners aren't stupid. They know filesharing has existed almost as long as paysites have. Though they didn't much like it, the consensus was pretty much to overlook it and not advertise it, as long as it stayed underground. When Pescado opened this site, the uproar began because this was all in the open, and anyone could come and get it, no secret handshakes necessary. They're afraid that no one will pay for their items if they can get them free.

It is something I could almost commiserate with, except for the fact that paysites have gotten out of hand. Instead of charging a modest fee to cover bandwidth, people are charging increasingly high prices for sometimes bad work in order to turn a profit. Sites are starting up for the express purpose of charging for content to make a profit. Others in this thread have mentioned the kind of tactics that some paysite owners use, deceptive photoshopping and that kind of thing.

Basically, what this site is about is taking a stand. We don't want paysites. The files hosted here are pretty much a means to an end for Pescado, he has already stated that he doesn't give a crap about the files, he's just hoping to damage paysites. Not all of us think that every site owner must shoulder the entire cost of the site themselves, but charging overinflated prices then claiming that the total of the proceeds go to bandwidth is an insultingly transparent lie.

Also, by the standards of paysite owners, if we are thieves, then they are as well,  to a worse degree. We may be sharing files for a game, but they are swapping personal information about customers. I know that to them, all is fair in protecting the almighty dollar, but this is an outrageously unethical low.

Anyway Avic, you are more than welcome here, whether you indulge in downloading the files hosted on the server or not. I wont even take a cheap shot at you with my knockoff prada purse.

[avic]

Wow :-)  That is an amazing post.  I'm headed home, and I'll give some more thought to it on the way home, but honestly there's not much to argue that I can think of off the top of my head.   I will say that much of my argument has been based upon pirating in general - as applies mainly to games - and not really targeted towards the paysites issue.  That said - there's a lot going on with the paysites that I didn't really know about and frankly, I'm less than happy over.

And if you don't take a shot at me with your knock-off Prada, I won't return the favor with my knock-off Ruger ;-)

[Tempest Limmerfer]

This (in part) is the debate that people should be reading. Finally, some real points have been made clear and both sides have been heard. Legally, EA is perfectly clear. Ethically...it may seem grey, but it gets more complicated if one looks more deeply into the issues. Having finally gotten a look at this pay content, I have to bring out the fact that it is not regulated in any way. Food, products, etc. are regulated in that consumers know they are safe products and look as they are shown.

With some of these files offered by paysites (and free sites), we get no indication of the quality, safeness, or even if they look anything like the pictures shown. If I d/l a free files and it stinks...delete. If I buy a file and it is bad, then I have been robbed. Too many times, files are NOT half as good as they are shown to be. "Buyer beware"? Maybe. But without regulations, then we also must be concerned that people who have paid for a file that was not represented fairly have been cheated.

Just my opinion, but something that has been bothering me since the debate began. Maybe some enjoy the free files, but some of us have been more interested in finding out the truth that had been hidden for far too long.

[Lackey]

The truth that has been hidden for so long is exactly why the paysites thought underground sharing was good and open sharing was bad. Because the "truth" would hurt them greatly and it has.

[Marhis]

I could agree with whom says that it's a matter of choices: nobody force you to buy, nobody needs those pay items ever, so the right thing to do is not buy them, and go without.
I could agree, because I am one of them: can't afford/don't want to pay = go without the items and so long.

But - and that's why I am here, praising the initiative - is because, sometimes, to be quiet and not messing with simply makes the things go worse.
"The Federation has gone too far" (sorry, but I HAVE the need to quote something from Star Wars ): someway the whole trend has to be put back into perspective. First, it needs a big shake-up: let the rage flow, let people going mad, let arguments arose, let's shouting out loud.
Sharing files - or any other "bad" action versus paysites - in silence leads to nothing. No, I correct myself: it supports the viewing of protesters as thieves and generically illecit people.

Let the fuss calm down, and that will be the moment to start reconsidering what is right and what is wrong; till then, you only have to force the adverse party to came out and show everybody all their skeletons in the closet.
I must admit that they're doing it rather quickly and pretty well by themeselves, though.

ETA: Argh! It took me ages to write this post, and in the meantime liegenschonheit has written exactly what I meant, but way better. So, may I say "I totally agree"?  :oops:
*searching the thanks button... baaaaahhhhh*

[Sherry]

The truth that has been hidden for so long is exactly why the paysites thought underground sharing was good and open sharing was bad. Because the "truth" would hurt them greatly and it has.

I don't know if that is exactly the case.  Liegenschonheit, stated Pescado started open sharing, and it is why Paysites are now in an uproar.  Thus, in effect referring to places like the SFV as "underground" sharing, which to a certain extent I can agree with.  We don't try to hide or sharing, but the community's censorship of us has somewhat forced us to be an underground sort of site.

Yet paysite owners were never happy or thought that underground sharing was "good", if they did we wouldn't have had to deal with the four years of fake lawyer letters, threats, closures, bitching like we had to.  

When SFV first opened to the Public on Ezboard, the statement was just as big for the community as what Pescado making now, and we recieved just as much flack for it, and site owners were just as angry and flaky in their tactics to stop us.

Paysites don't like sharing, open or otherwise.  They are just more threatened, when more people know, and will become more involved until they can censor the site down to a level where no too many newer people notice it.

[coliss]

Pescado also has been posting big fat links on InSim and MATY, so I think it got quite some publicity. And then, you got some people posting it in guestbooks, signatures... :lol:

[Sherry]

Pescado also has been posting big fat links on InSim and MATY, so I think it got quite some publicity. And then, you got some people posting it in guestbooks, signatures... :lol:

Coliss there are always ways to get advertisement for your site.  Don't forget PMBD is brand new.  It's not like at the SFV we wanted to be this little underground sharing site, but after 4 years or dealing with threats, trying to protect your members from paysite owners like rose, or birgit you get tired.  

Probably the reason why alot of older members at the SFV are not around here, they have already rehashed alot of these issue for years and I think are frankly too sick of them to do it again.

You learn that the quieter you are, the quieter things become for you.  I think alot of us who had been through this drill awhile ago had like the quiet.  We never stopped members from sending others invites, SIH even set up anonymous email invites but being able to relax more is nice too.

[coliss]

Ah, I know Sherry. Though I wasn't aware of SFV before coming here, I'm pretty sure people prefered not to post everywhere about SFV. I personally wouldn't, unless it's between friends because I know for sure they don't like paysites. Pescado probably does not give a flying f**k about receiving threats though. XD

[liegenschonheit]

Thats why I said that paysite owners weren't happy about sharing, just were more inclined to ignore it if it is underground. They hate SFV, but they weren't about to go around giving free advertising for the site either when so many people didn't know about it (except a few dumb ones ). Just like they don't go out of their way to stamp out every underground yahoo group or email filesharing circle. It's better not to let people know about it. If SFV were to have been suddenly linked to on every popular site again, I would be willing bet that it would have gotten the same reaction.

[Lackey]

I think it would be nice to hear some of the stories from others about how their sites or yahoo groups have been shut down by paysites and how they exactly went about doing it. I think it would be good for people to see just how nasty they can get. Would surely stop the ethics arguments from coming through. Well, ok not stop them but could knock them down a bit.

[avic]

I think it would be nice to hear some of the stories from others about how their sites or yahoo groups have been shut down by paysites and how they exactly went about doing it. I think it would be good for people to see just how nasty they can get. Would surely stop the ethics arguments from coming through. Well, ok not stop them but could knock them down a bit.

Not really.  There's always the stance of "Two wrongs don't make a right."  As for myself, I intend on not downloading files here, but I'm also making a note of sites that are doing things that I don't condone (Rose comes to mind) and I will not ever pass money their way again, if I have in the past.