My Story as an Artist on TSR & The Inside Machinations

[deathtotsr]

Netseeker2 - I don't know if you will know the answer to this, but here goes....my theory has always been that TSR is paying some type of royalty or commission or what have you to EA, would that be a correct assumption or do you know?

EA is not doing all of this inviting, etc. for nothing.  They are corporate and the first question that a corporate person is going to ask is "What's in it for me?"  

I would also be interested in the tax filings, etc.  Since the creators are paid a direct commission based upon sales figures, so to speak, from a Human Resource perspective they are contract employees and TSR would have to issue, those who are required by their countries' laws, tax forms detailing monies earned.  Since TSR operates as a business, with paid employees and contracted employees, it should be accounting for tax revenue and self-employment taxes.  Your thoughts?

Let me also add that copyright infrigement is a bunch of bullshit.  In order to claim copyright or a derivative on existing works or copyrighted material, there must be a contractual agreement between said parties, fansites are not considered as being a contracted designer or contracted employee of EA.  Even then, the first sale right doctrine comes into play.  As I have said before, if I do not sell it, advertise it as my own, make false claims as to the derivatives, etc. there is no law currently that prohibits the Booty.

hehehe....

Sorry to be laughing - I'm not laughing at you, at all, I'm just laughing to think that Thomas didn't like me enough to tell me anything let alone (well he detested me period) to take me into confidence as far as the financial and tax dealings of the site went.  I doubt he even likes Atwa enough for that.  So I can't answer that. But yeah those are very valid questions and if they have an income tax department in the Swedish gov't, that's another agency you can get crawling down their backs - as we all know over here on this side of Atlantic dealing with auditors can be a real picnic and a half. So yeah it's about time he got to have a picnic too and find out what the fun is all about.

[Hecubus]

It is my opinion that EA is not in cohoots with TSR; however, Maxis may have been, and leftover Maxoids seem to be, sympathetic. However, I believe EA corporate doesn't give a rat's ass about them, and EA legal will not draw a line between TSR and othe paysites.

[deathtotsr]

It is my opinion that EA is not in cohoots with TSR; however, Maxis may have been, and leftover Maxoids seem to be, sympathetic. However, I believe EA corporate doesn't give a rat's ass about them, and EA legal will not draw a line between TSR and othe paysites.

Well that may also be a part of the problem - having too many paysites to go after all at once. You can't sue one for doing something while you let all the others continue to get away with it. So they'd have to have a suit that named all of the paysites together - some would lose by default - simply by not appearing or having representation in the courtroom (so that would take care of them) but then if you had even 3-4 paysites with representation in the court room they may band together to try to fight it (because if one can win, they all win) and that's maybe what EA is afraid of.

[scrappysim]

The truly frustrating part is that it probably wouldnt take lawsuits at all.  Really we just need EA to make a statement that paysites are wrong and threaten to take action then the sites that continue to charge for content (which will not be many I am sure since many have said that if EA ever said you cant charge then they would stop and the threat of law action would encourage small sites for sure) could be dealt with much more easily.  

If they would just get a backbone and say "No More!"  we could all just get back to sharing nicely like we did in the very early days of sims 1.

(btw- hi netseeker!  I have been at TSR since the beginning of Sims 1 and have loved the things of yours that I have downloaded.  I am sorry to hear that you too have become a victim of thier crap but I am glad you are free of them now.)

[HawkGirl]

Hec you are absolutely correct in everything you said in your post.

[Chienne]

Netseeker, I'm sorry to hear that you were treated so badly at TSR.  One of the things I love about playing The Sims is seeing how it seems to spark the creativity in so many different people and in so many different directions.  I hope you won't let a few jerks take away your joy in making things!

When people treat me badly and I have no way to get back at them, I often think about what it must be like to be them.  And when I think about how it must be to go through life paranoid or insecure or never able to be sincere with anyone or whatever, I realize that I don't have to punish them -- just living as who they are is already a huge punishment.  And the worse of a person they are, the bigger the punishment it is to have to go through life as them.  I don't know if that thought will help you or not, but I pass it along, just in case.

[deathtotsr]

The truly frustrating part is that it probably wouldnt take lawsuits at all.  Really we just need EA to make a statement that paysites are wrong and threaten to take action then the sites that continue to charge for content (which will not be many I am sure since many have said that if EA ever said you cant charge then they would stop and the threat of law action would encourage small sites for sure) could be dealt with much more easily.  

If they would just get a backbone and say "No More!"  we could all just get back to sharing nicely like we did in the very early days of sims 1.

(btw- hi netseeker!  I have been at TSR since the beginning of Sims 1 and have loved the things of yours that I have downloaded.  I am sorry to hear that you too have become a victim of thier crap but I am glad you are free of them now.)

Thank you Scrappysim,

For such nice comments about my stuff that you downloaded. It's truly appreciated.

And you are probably right - all it takes is EA to grow a backbone and say enough is enough. That would probably work with most if not all of the other sites, but I somehow doubt it would work with TSR. They've invested too much time and money in recruiting FAs setting up servers and lord knows what else for them to just say "okay we're free now and no one has to pay a cent" without putting up an argument if not a fight about it. That's not to mention the FA's revolting en masse because they're not going to be paid anymore either.  I think rather than go free they'd close TSR and either sell off their assets or use them for another money making purpose ( like renting server space to businesses maybe) who knows, but one thing's for sure I don't see them keeping TSR open as a free site.

[deathtotsr]

Netseeker, I'm sorry to hear that you were treated so badly at TSR.  One of the things I love about playing The Sims is seeing how it seems to spark the creativity in so many different people and in so many different directions.  I hope you won't let a few jerks take away your joy in making things!

When people treat me badly and I have no way to get back at them, I often think about what it must be like to be them.  And when I think about how it must be to go through life paranoid or insecure or never able to be sincere with anyone or whatever, I realize that I don't have to punish them -- just living as who they are is already a huge punishment.  And the worse of a person they are, the bigger the punishment it is to have to go through life as them.  I don't know if that thought will help you or not, but I pass it along, just in case.

Thank you Chienne,

For expressing your sympathies and sharing your coping technique with me. It's much appreciated.

I can assure you no one has taken away my joy of creating. I do still create things. But with Thomas removing all of my stuff off of TSR, (yes I can still submit to MTS2, and a few other friends in the community have offered me space on their sites and forums and servers too - all of which I declined) I have decided to retire as an artist in the community. Like I told a friend earlier tonight, I've seen too many good, nice people and brilliant artists get hurt and trampled on by others in this community (and this site you might say is where the bravest of the brave souls who fall in that category can express what happened to them - you might call it an shelter for abused creators instead of battered women - and there's a lot more creators in here with similar stories to mine who've all been used and abused in one way or another too) and I have also been hurt quite a few times (well I don't get "hurt" in the typical sense of the word - I get angry mostly as a result of something that was done to me). So I think the only way I'm going to be able to enjoy creating for the game now is if I do it for myself and for those few odd friends who may request something from me. It's supposed to be something you enjoy doing and not something you keep having to fight with everyone else over doing. I'm tired of the fighting part and now I just want the enjoyment part. Hence the reason I've retired.

[Soup Parrot]

Since I am Swedish, I am the best person to answer this, even though I am not at all an expert. But I assure you we cannot do anything we want here, and that tsr is breaking Swedish laws. As for the actual procedures, I don't know.

What laws are you referring to and who would have any grounds for a lawsuit?

A lawsuit on grounds that TSR is not licensed EA, is basically swindling money out of consumers, fraud etc.

[HawkGirl]

I didn't get that Netseeker was looking to be paid at all, just doing a comparison for kudo's verses being paid. Which you can actually see. I am so thankful I never got caught up in that mess. That I left after just a couple weeks of being there. Netseeker, you could also call EA, ask to speak to the legal dept, and tell them you have some evidence files they might be interested in seeing. But, don't be too surprised if they already know about this thread. They seem to know a lot of what we do and say here. lol

Sorry I missed this earlier in the thread, was just re-reading the thread now and noticed what you said here.

One thing I think this site is overlooking is that EA games or Maxis (whichever - because they're one & the same now) is in cahoots with TSR. It should be obvious to you that they are. I mean why else would Steve Bonham keep getting invited to their headquarters for the scoop on the new games and expansion packs if they weren't? You don't see Delphy getting invited there, nor Quaxi, nor Numenor nor anyone else in the free community, do you? Or at least I haven't heard of any of them being invited so far.  Why don't they invite Delphy and give him the scoop on something if they're so against TSR making money on their product and opt instead to help out the other guy who's just doing it because he likes their product like Delphy?

You know years ago when home computers first came on the scene, I & my husband had a users group and companies helped the users groups out a lot by giving them free software and equipment. Heck I even had an engineer from Western Digital come over to my house to adjust the CMOS on my computer to accept the first IDE drives on the market - which he did for free - because Western Digital gave me the IDE drive but it didn't work. We had a user group and it was free and we didn't make any money on anything and when we talked about computer hardware or software we voiced our honest opinions of them. Even still the software and hardware companies had no problems whatsoever not only giving us the material but also the support.  So if big companies can and did do things like that for small user groups, why is it Maxis/EA can't do something like that for the smaller free sites that support their game? They don't and the only reasons why I can see they don't is either because it might hurt their interest (yes they may have some kind of intellectual or financial interest)  or can't be bothered because they think it may hurt them too if they were to bring TSR down. (Either as a backlash in the community for having brought them down, or a dwindling user base because now there's less content in the community).  So why would they care/worry about what happened to me on TSR if they don't even seem to care that TSR is contravening their own license agreements?

But what they may not understand is that by giving a little support here and there (maybe based on capacity and size of the site) to the free sites out there and more support (financial and invitations to get the scoops) to the bigger sites like Delphy's is that if they did that, there wouldn't be a backlash in the community, nor would there be a dwindling user base, because now there are plenty of places available for everyone to post their work without all the headaches of financing these things all by the users selves. I know they will say they tried to provide a place with the exchange, but for the community at large that's not good enough - for one thing it's base of downloads is too narrow (sims, and lots only) and for other it's near impossible to find even specific EA content on there let alone a specific user's stuff who isn't a part of the EA staff. So if they want to keep the exchange still they can but if not they can abolish it and start to fund the other free sites out there and keep them operational - or better yet not fund them but provide free server space for these sites (that way there's no accusations of misuse of funds going around the community on account of that).  There's ways to take TSR down and still maintain their image in the community, if they really wanted to. Thing is it doesn't appear that they really want to, or it'd have been done long ago.

I'm sorry to say but harping on the EULA isn't going to get you anywhere, you have to go after them for all the other infringements they've done and that's where that Swedish gov't link the other user provided is very valuable. Not to mention all the  companies who's copyright images appear on content on TSR's site.

And as an after-thought.... See what a little support can do? Years later (I'm talking about 20 years later now) I'm still citing what Western Digital did - that's called the best advertising you can get in sales, - word of mouth and goodwill. That one little act that they did 20 years ago still allows me to promote them today (okay before now it's been only to people I've actually met in real life, but now I'm endorsing them and how they behaved with us to the whole internet). Maybe EA/Maxis could stand to take lessons from Western Digital in that department of showing goodwill and support to those who are promoting and using their products.

I don't know where your getting I am harping on the EULA?? I have said OVER and OVER again the EULA is just the middle piece of the puzzle. Nohead is the one that brought up the EULA. For me the EULA is just a tiny part of this battle. It can be challenged. Some of the other crap going on a judge would throw the book at plenty of these paysites for.

In fact I said.
Copied and Pasted:
They always want to concentrate on one area the EULA. So that is what we have to argue with them. What was the first thing Nohead said, when it came to what laws are they breaking? Oh I thought it had to do with the EULA. That's like holding the middle piece of the puzzle, and unable to find all the other pieces. The EULA is the center, or core. There are many branches off of it. I personally think it's because as long as they think of it in terms of a company, they don't have to look at the human side of it. Makes it a little easier to sleep at night.

Also I don't know where your getting that only Thomas is invited to the shows? Delphy has been invited to plenty, except this last one and we all know why. There are also other fansites that are invited to the private shows, as well as private citizens. I have no website and I get invited to the private shows. I just went to one, we all could have gone. I get invited to all the shows here in CA. I will guarantee you, Thomas is NOT in cahoots with EA. With some of the Maxis employee's, probably. But not with EA. He has done more to make enemies at EA then he ever did to influence friends. And I think this little community they started has sent it all over the edge. Why would EA want to associate themselves with someone that harms EA?

[Sims2lvr]

When I saw that Awta was a FA, I almost shitted my pants!  Her creations suck big time!


Sims2Lvr

[calalily]

One thing I think this site is overlooking is that EA games or Maxis (whichever - because they're one & the same now) is in cahoots with TSR.

Just because TSR says they are, doesn't mean they are.  EA is lacklustre in doing something about this because it doesn't hurt their bottom line.  Freesites and paysites still encourage the buying of their games.

I'm sorry to say but harping on the EULA isn't going to get you anywhere

Harping about OJ murdering his wife doesn't get people anywhere either, but OJ still murdered his wife, and people should know that.  It matters not whether it "gets us anywhere" - we can't take them to court for breaking the EULA despite them breaking it - only EA can do that.  

Where it does make a difference (and for example, the reason I am here in the first place) is because the EULA is a contract that I signed, and I'll be damned if someone tries to browbeat me into forgetting that it is in fact something everyone agreed to.  I knew (and found this place soon after) that the contract that binds me, binds them as well.  It was the same with Bon Voyage - so the highly touted "EULA changes" didn't happen then.  It still says non-commercial, and that means that I can fileshare.

They've invested too much time and money in recruiting FAs setting up servers and lord knows what else for them to just say "okay we're free now and no one has to pay a cent" without putting up an argument if not a fight about it.

They'd be fighting a losing battle - there is caselaw enpointe concerning the selling of custom content - it has already been established by the 9th circuit court that it is, in fact, not legal.  http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/9656426.html

As for an argument that they would have to sue all violators as a class action - not so.  All they have to do is go after one.  They might choose TSR, or they might choose a pushover.  Once one site folds, then if anyone truly thinks that TSR wouldn't shut the next day and run away with all their money - because that is what Tom Ass cares about - that person is seriously short sighted.

[deathtotsr]

I didn't get that Netseeker was looking to be paid at all, just doing a comparison for kudo's verses being paid. Which you can actually see. I am so thankful I never got caught up in that mess. That I left after just a couple weeks of being there. Netseeker, you could also call EA, ask to speak to the legal dept, and tell them you have some evidence files they might be interested in seeing. But, don't be too surprised if they already know about this thread. They seem to know a lot of what we do and say here. lol

Sorry I missed this earlier in the thread, was just re-reading the thread now and noticed what you said here.

One thing I think this site is overlooking is that EA games or Maxis (whichever - because they're one & the same now) is in cahoots with TSR. It should be obvious to you that they are. I mean why else would Steve Bonham keep getting invited to their headquarters for the scoop on the new games and expansion packs if they weren't? You don't see Delphy getting invited there, nor Quaxi, nor Numenor nor anyone else in the free community, do you? Or at least I haven't heard of any of them being invited so far.  Why don't they invite Delphy and give him the scoop on something if they're so against TSR making money on their product and opt instead to help out the other guy who's just doing it because he likes their product like Delphy?

You know years ago when home computers first came on the scene, I & my husband had a users group and companies helped the users groups out a lot by giving them free software and equipment. Heck I even had an engineer from Western Digital come over to my house to adjust the CMOS on my computer to accept the first IDE drives on the market - which he did for free - because Western Digital gave me the IDE drive but it didn't work. We had a user group and it was free and we didn't make any money on anything and when we talked about computer hardware or software we voiced our honest opinions of them. Even still the software and hardware companies had no problems whatsoever not only giving us the material but also the support.  So if big companies can and did do things like that for small user groups, why is it Maxis/EA can't do something like that for the smaller free sites that support their game? They don't and the only reasons why I can see they don't is either because it might hurt their interest (yes they may have some kind of intellectual or financial interest)  or can't be bothered because they think it may hurt them too if they were to bring TSR down. (Either as a backlash in the community for having brought them down, or a dwindling user base because now there's less content in the community).  So why would they care/worry about what happened to me on TSR if they don't even seem to care that TSR is contravening their own license agreements?

But what they may not understand is that by giving a little support here and there (maybe based on capacity and size of the site) to the free sites out there and more support (financial and invitations to get the scoops) to the bigger sites like Delphy's is that if they did that, there wouldn't be a backlash in the community, nor would there be a dwindling user base, because now there are plenty of places available for everyone to post their work without all the headaches of financing these things all by the users selves. I know they will say they tried to provide a place with the exchange, but for the community at large that's not good enough - for one thing it's base of downloads is too narrow (sims, and lots only) and for other it's near impossible to find even specific EA content on there let alone a specific user's stuff who isn't a part of the EA staff. So if they want to keep the exchange still they can but if not they can abolish it and start to fund the other free sites out there and keep them operational - or better yet not fund them but provide free server space for these sites (that way there's no accusations of misuse of funds going around the community on account of that).  There's ways to take TSR down and still maintain their image in the community, if they really wanted to. Thing is it doesn't appear that they really want to, or it'd have been done long ago.

I'm sorry to say but harping on the EULA isn't going to get you anywhere, you have to go after them for all the other infringements they've done and that's where that Swedish gov't link the other user provided is very valuable. Not to mention all the  companies who's copyright images appear on content on TSR's site.

And as an after-thought.... See what a little support can do? Years later (I'm talking about 20 years later now) I'm still citing what Western Digital did - that's called the best advertising you can get in sales, - word of mouth and goodwill. That one little act that they did 20 years ago still allows me to promote them today (okay before now it's been only to people I've actually met in real life, but now I'm endorsing them and how they behaved with us to the whole internet). Maybe EA/Maxis could stand to take lessons from Western Digital in that department of showing goodwill and support to those who are promoting and using their products.

I don't know where your getting I am harping on the EULA?? I have said OVER and OVER again the EULA is just the middle piece of the puzzle. Nohead is the one that brought up the EULA. For me the EULA is just a tiny part of this battle. It can be challenged. Some of the other crap going on a judge would throw the book at plenty of these paysites for.

In fact I said.
Copied and Pasted:
They always want to concentrate on one area the EULA. So that is what we have to argue with them. What was the first thing Nohead said, when it came to what laws are they breaking? Oh I thought it had to do with the EULA. That's like holding the middle piece of the puzzle, and unable to find all the other pieces. The EULA is the center, or core. There are many branches off of it. I personally think it's because as long as they think of it in terms of a company, they don't have to look at the human side of it. Makes it a little easier to sleep at night.

Also I don't know where your getting that only Thomas is invited to the shows? Delphy has been invited to plenty, except this last one and we all know why. There are also other fansites that are invited to the private shows, as well as private citizens. I have no website and I get invited to the private shows. I just went to one, we all could have gone. I get invited to all the shows here in CA. I will guarantee you, Thomas is NOT in cahoots with EA. With some of the Maxis employee's, probably. But not with EA. He has done more to make enemies at EA then he ever did to influence friends. And I think this little community they started has sent it all over the edge. Why would EA want to associate themselves with someone that harms EA?

Sorry,

I worded that wrong when I said "you" I didn't mean you as in you personally, but "you" and in the collective here at this site.

I had my training as a nurse and not a lawyer so I can't argue law with you least of all law from another country (which in this case is law from the US).

I never said Thomas got invited anywhere. I don't think anyone would invite him anywhere either.  I know I wouldn't - that's for sure. I said Steve Bonham gets invited. Steve Bonham so far as I know still works with and is part owner (isn't he listed as president on there somewhere?) of TSR. Therefore TSR through Steve Bonham gets an invitation.

You're lucky if you get invitations to these things - maybe living in the proximity of Electronic Arts headquarters (ie same city or state) has something to do with that? Because I live in Montreal and I didn't get an invitation. However Steve Bonham lives in England he got one.  So I don't think in his case it was because he lives in the proximity but rather because it's who he is in the community and the site he owns or co-owns. Maybe the same can be said for you but under the name you're using in here I don't recognize you. Sorry.

All I know is what I see - and that is that it appears that EA supports TSR - at least on the surface they do, but they don't appear to be supporting anyone else.

[Soup Parrot]

Im with Cala, EA only needs to sue to set an example. I think TSR has the biggest target on its back, and more than likely is the most prosperous as it has its own headquarters, with a staff over ten with claiming membership at ten million. If I was Thomas, I would be not getting comfortable, but looking for new employment options soon. Especially since EA is a big corporation and can take TSR to the cleaners. Then the subsscibers may be able to get a class action suit, for being charged illegally, etc.

[deathtotsr]

One thing I think this site is overlooking is that EA games or Maxis (whichever - because they're one & the same now) is in cahoots with TSR.

Just because TSR says they are, doesn't mean they are.  EA is lacklustre in doing something about this because it doesn't hurt their bottom line.  Freesites and paysites still encourage the buying of their games.

I'm sorry to say but harping on the EULA isn't going to get you anywhere

Harping about OJ murdering his wife doesn't get people anywhere either, but OJ still murdered his wife, and people should know that.  It matters not whether it "gets us anywhere" - we can't take them to court for breaking the EULA despite them breaking it - only EA can do that.  

Where it does make a difference (and for example, the reason I am here in the first place) is because the EULA is a contract that I signed, and I'll be damned if someone tries to browbeat me into forgetting that it is in fact something everyone agreed to.  I knew (and found this place soon after) that the contract that binds me, binds them as well.  It was the same with Bon Voyage - so the highly touted "EULA changes" didn't happen then.  It still says non-commercial, and that means that I can fileshare.

They've invested too much time and money in recruiting FAs setting up servers and lord knows what else for them to just say "okay we're free now and no one has to pay a cent" without putting up an argument if not a fight about it.

They'd be fighting a losing battle - there is caselaw enpointe concerning the selling of custom content - it has already been established by the 9th circuit court that it is, in fact, not legal.  http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/9656426.html

As for an argument that they would have to sue all violators as a class action - not so.  All they have to do is go after one.  They might choose TSR, or they might choose a pushover.  Once one site folds, then if anyone truly thinks that TSR wouldn't shut the next day and run away with all their money - because that is what Tom Ass cares about - that person is seriously short sighted.

This is all very interesting and enlightening. Have you thought of sending this material to EA's legal department to prove that there is a precedent and that they would win? I mean telling me and the others on here is fine and enlightening, but shouldn't someone be telling the legal dept at EA games about it? Wouldn't that do more to have TSR shut down? I assume this court and that precedent was set in the same state that EA operates in and if not that despite whatever state it was set in, that it would apply Federally across all of the US states? It seems to me that perhaps you are a lawyer right? Have you solicited EA games to offer legal counsel and assistance to them if you are? If not, why not? Seems to me they'd need someone like you on their legal staff pronto.