New confirmation

[Yaardarm Monkey]

#1. No
#2. No

I don't think he is in full legal right since both cases violates the trademarks of Disney.

Do i think that this gives anyone the right to steal his work? No.

HIS work?  you just admitted that he has no rights to the file images or the package files

how can anyone "steal" what never belonged to him in the first place?  

he violated the Disney copyright, therefore he has NO proprietary rights over anything he makes from that violation

[AwwBoo]

I just read through this entire thread.  I must say... Nohead, you are giving more than Paden a headache.  *Reaches for excedrin with rum*

Why are you grasping at straws?  That really is all you're doing, you know.  FFS, EA has said paysites are illegal.  That is GOOD enough for me, and should be good enough for the rest of the community.  The bottom line is they made Sims, Sims 2, Sims 3.. you agreed to their rules when you installed the game.  If they were not around, you would not have this little "business".  Stop trying to find a way to part players with their money.  Do the right thing and share your creations freely.  

As for the argument that what we are doing here is wrong.. give me a break.  Sharing Sims 2 content is legal.  Making people pay for that content is illegal.  There is nothing bad or wrong going on here.  Get over it.

[calalily]

Good research there - you still haven't answered my questions.

So, this site gives a third party (you for instance) the right to tell others what to do?
If you are worried about the paysite owners then by all means contact them and let them handle it.

Sorry, i thought you were just trying to be funny, didn't realize they were actual questions.

I don't claim that i have any rights whatsoever here.

You'll know when I'm trying to be funny - it won't be to a TSR worker.

You still haven't refuted this statement:

If you are worried about the paysite owners then by all means contact them and let them handle it.

Unless you are a paysite owner, this really isn't any of your business according to your own philosophy.  Why don't you let them deal with it, if you are so gungho about people dealing with only that which pertains to them.

[nohead]

With 2 of my subscriptions (please keep in mind that this was BEFORE I ever knew about these file sharing sites and I have documented proof)
When I sent a message to the creator or admin, I was fussed at and told that it was basically "tough shit".  My account was cancelled with days left and no refund.

With the other 3 I have had subscriptions with (keep in mind above disclaimer), 2 never bothered to respond and 1 did respond with they didn't know how to make the bed animations work the way Maxis intended.

This is why I have issues with paysites, because there is no standard or requirement to be met, it is subjective to each site which does not produce a positive outcome for customers or EA.  If EA condones these paysites, in my opinion, they will also have to have a legal SOP, especially since they are a publically traded company on the NYSE.

Sounds like you have ha d bad experience with some paysites, i can understand why you don't like them after the treatment you got.
The thing is that you are a customer to the paysite and not to EA so why should EA be held responsible for what a paysite might do?

This (PMBD) is not the way to make the guilty paysites change for the better though.

[AW]

No, I did not say EA was at fault.  With a MBA and a Series 63, I assure you I am very well versed in the business world.   I actually have no files out of the booty.  I have downloaded, yes, but kept no.  The main reason is quality, the second reason was I had something already similiar in my game.  I come to PMBD basically because I have a great time in the forum and enjoy many of the friendships with these crazy pirates behind the screen.

But you supposition was why do you (general term) feel that filesharing is ok.  Well, I believe that you pointed it out very nicely.  EA is not responsible.  In fact there are the same disclaimers on every site, pay and free, that the site is not affiliated.  Paysites are holding items "hostage" that actually belong to another legal entity, not only does the EULA cover this but the copyright laws as well.

In order to have an affiliation, as EA is incorporated, you would have to be considered a 3rd party or subsidiary.  In this case, EA would be the official regulating body of said paysite.  I don't know if that is what a paysite would want, control would no longer be exclusive and a paysite would be required, as any business, to pay set fees to the product owner and produce a product that meets specific standards and guidelines, not to mention the animations and colors would also have to meet game standards.  And that doesn't even include the tax issue, which is going to be a hurdle all by itself.  Especially for any creators on the sites that receive pay from the site.  1099's would have to be produced as well to the contracted creators (US Residents).  

So, who do you hold responsible when the site owner who took your money, with a "bait and switch" in some cases, when the site is the final say and they do not hold themselves accountable?  What course of action is there for the end user?  

I don't think that PMBD is going to make paysites change, but I do think that any change EA makes will be impacted by PMBD and freesites.  You are very correct in that not only did I have bad experiences, but evidently was the victim of those who do not know how to run a "business", do not do it fairly and do not necessarily do it honestly.  

A final thought, if I was not EA's customer first and foremost, I would have no need to use items from a paysite or a freesite.  It sounds in your post as though you are saying I should just get over it and move on and do nothing.  The money I spent on paysites that I wasted was money that I earned that was exchanged for unsatisfactory goods.  Therefore, I have the right as a consumer to go to a third party to obtain items that are offered somewhere else.  

I have a couple of questions, for you.  I have answered yours honestly and respectfully.  What is your interest in this exactly?  What is your objective?  Are you a paysite owner?  Give me the history of why you are questioning this issue, you involvement is much too focused to be a casual user or observer.

[SparklePlenty]

Nohead: This (PMBD) is not the way to make the guilty paysites change for the better though.

The ministering angels said: Sovereign of the Universe, why do You shame the leader of Your court? Let truth rise from the earth. Thus it is written, "Truth will arise from the earth." (Psalms 85:12)

Nohead? Bite me.

[nohead]

HIS work?  you just admitted that he has no rights to the file images or the package files

how can anyone "steal" what never belonged to him in the first place?  

he violated the Disney copyright, therefore he has NO proprietary rights over anything he makes from that violation

Yes the work involved in making those thing usable in the game.
That work resulted in a product  that didn't previously exist.
That product is not yours to take just because he did a wrong in the first place.
See what i mean?

[nohead]

I just read through this entire thread.  I must say... Nohead, you are giving more than Paden a headache.  *Reaches for excedrin with rum*

Why are you grasping at straws?  That really is all you're doing, you know.  FFS, EA has said paysites are illegal.  That is GOOD enough for me, and should be good enough for the rest of the community.  The bottom line is they made Sims, Sims 2, Sims 3.. you agreed to their rules when you installed the game.  If they were not around, you would not have this little "business".  Stop trying to find a way to part players with their money.  Do the right thing and share your creations freely.  

As for the argument that what we are doing here is wrong.. give me a break.  Sharing Sims 2 content is legal.  Making people pay for that content is illegal.  There is nothing bad or wrong going on here.  Get over it.

If there is something in particular that i didn't manage to explain very well  then please ask .

I'm actually not interested in making such a program, i was interested in how the people here would react if such a system were being used by paysites.
Interesting because it would take away the whole EULA argument.
What you're doing here might not be illegal but it's against the wishes of those who created the items you have here.
Paysites are not illegal, they might break the agreement (EULA) but i think it is safe to say that there is an understanding between EA and paysites.

[AW]

If there is something in particular that i didn't manage to explain very well then please ask .

I'm actually not interested in making such a program, i was interested in how the people here would react if such a system were being used by paysites.
Interesting because it would take away the whole EULA argument.
What you're doing here might not be illegal but it's against the wishes of those who created the items you have here.
Paysites are not illegal, they might break the agreement (EULA) but i think it is safe to say that there is an understanding between EA and paysites.

And in this you have the chicken vs. egg theory.  And we are back to, if paysites were freesites then the booty would not exist.  You say that EA gives their blessing on paysites, well, you could say the same in regards to file sharing.  Why?  The Exchange is a prime example and condoned by those who are employed by EA.  According to a SimMaster there, the only reason that any items have been removed were not because they were paysite items, it was due to the credit for said content not being given by the designer/uploader/member.  So, to believe that it was because it was a pay item, is not correct at all.  As long as proper credit is given for the original and/or mesh, EA Online has no problem with the posting of the object or sim.

Keep in mind, that the freesites who have TOS are for the most part in the community, adhered to respectfully.  There are those few who will always work outside the margin, so to speak, but not as a whole.  I actually don't think that any program would take the place or create disregard of the EULA.  The base game, which is required for any content, belongs to EA "All Rights Reserved".  If paysites are breaking a legal agreement, then you are incorrect, in business law it is operating under illegal practices and is subject to all penalties assigned.

Wishes and dreams don't equate to legal and binding agreements.  How about an example?  Second Life is a game in which user made content is sold, levels of the game are sold, and it is understood that those with the money will reap more benefits "in game".  EA, however, packaged a complete game with the ability to develop content, share with a community - which is what they do with just about  all of their games, have a central uploading and downloading site, i.e. Sims 2, and allow for those who would like to have a fansite and forums to discuss or do collaborations.

[nohead]

Armywife:
I must have got that you wrong about EA being held responsible, so no disagreement there. You certainly seem to know what you're talking about and you explain it well .

Paysites are holding items "hostage" that actually belong to another legal entity, not only does the EULA cover this but the copyright laws as well.

That's one way of looking at it and i can understand it.
But what if said legal entity (EA) silently accepts and even approve of what paysites do?

So, who do you hold responsible when the site owner who took your money, with a "bait and switch" in some cases, when the site is the final say and they do not hold themselves accountable? What course of action is there for the end user?

I'm not sure if the affiliation part was connected to this question but i don't think it's ever going to come to an actual affiliation, more likely they will just allow charging for custom content.
So who you should hold responsible is the site owner and if the site owner is not being professional about it i'm afraid it will be tricky .
In the real world a shop that treats their customers bad will in the end stand there without customers and it should work in a similar way here as well.

A final thought, if I was not EA's customer first and foremost, I would have no need to use items from a paysite or a freesite. It sounds in your post as though you are saying I should just get over it and move on and do nothing. The money I spent on paysites that I wasted was money that I earned that was exchanged for unsatisfactory goods. Therefore, I have the right as a consumer to go to a third party to obtain items that are offered somewhere else.

No i don't mean that you should get over it and move on. No one should have the accept this behavior and i would encourage anyone that gets an unfair treatment to protest and do something.
I'm just saying that the PMBD method (the sharing part) is not the right method, not if you have a genuine interest in trying to make things better.
A neutral place where customers and paysite owners could meet and resolve such issues would be a good thing i think.

I have a couple of questions, for you. I have answered yours honestly and respectfully. What is your interest in this exactly? What is your objective? Are you a paysite owner? Give me the history of why you are questioning this issue, you involvement is much too focused to be a casual user or observer.

I'm not representing anyone but myself, everything written by nohead is my personal opinions only.
I do have a connection to the paysite world but i would not like to go in to any more details on that as i'm afraid that would very much limit my ability to participate here.
I hope this can be respected.

My interest in this is that i wanted to figure out what it is that makes so many people here so hostile to paysites.
I'm not sure that i have much of an objective here but i would like to put all the facts on the table and try to sort them out. There are a lot of speculation going on and they seem to be taken up on as real facts.
Unfortunately it will be very difficult to achieve this without revealing who i am (bummer) but i can at least try to encourage people to try and figure things out for themselves and not believe in speculation.

[AW]

No i don't mean that you should get over it and move on. No one should have the accept this behavior and i would encourage anyone that gets an unfair treatment to protest and do something.
I'm just saying that the PMBD method (the sharing part) is not the right method, not if you have a genuine interest in trying to make things better.
A neutral place where customers and paysite owners could meet and resolve such issues would be a good thing i think.

Isn't said place the forums that most sites have where this should be done?  However, when threads/posts are made questioning content or with a complaint, the SOP is to either lock the thread, ignore the complaint, chastise the poster or ban the user.  Would you like a prime example?  Check out Peggy Sims & TSR.  TSR who state in the forum agreement that you can be banned at the discretion of the site for any reason, and no reason has to be given.  EA may give their "consent" to paysites, but unless the are going to take the reponsibility of regulating these sites, then there is really no way that they can ban file sharing.  Why?  Very simply, if EA says "You can have a site and charge for content", unless they are going to give a guarantee of quality and workable content compatible to any/all current and future EP's and react on behalf of the EA customer, then it will be business as usual here at the booty.  In the real world of finance, the dollar will always win.  If EA loses customers or has to employ additional personnel to handle or deal with dissatisfied 3rd parties that they have "ok'ed" or endorsed to provide pay content, I would be extremely shocked if it wasn't stopped immediately.  So, in giving any approval, contrary to the current EULA that every customer who purchased the Sims 2 agreed to adhere to, EA would have to absorb partial liability.

You don't have to give up who you are or who you know.  I can respect that and won't ask you to again nor condemn you for your decision.

[AwwBoo]

Paysites are not illegal, they might break the agreement (EULA) but i think it is safe to say that there is an understanding between EA and paysites.

Really?  Hmm.. perhaps you need to read Nouk's conversation with an EA representative.  I believe that's what this original thread was about.  They seemed pretty clear on the matter.
 
In case you missed it in the very first post, here it is again.
http://www.noukiesims2.net/EAconfirms.gif

Now we could pick apart whether or not this means anything, but honestly, this is one of several letters I've seen from EA that says that paysites are illegal.  I have not seen one letter where they confirmed paysites are legal and are supported by EA.

*Edited because I'm sick and feverish and I keep making dumb-ass typos.

[Ry]

AwwBoo, feel better soon.  


Proceed.  

[dastardlyfeck]

Really?  Hmm.. perhaps you need to read Nouk's conversation with an EA representative.  I believe that's what this original thread was about.  They seemed pretty clear on the matter.

But that conversation is looking a bit dubious now.  This was just one EA bod replying (probably at support level) and it just doesn't match with TSR rubbing shoulders with EA Corporate at this year's fansite event.  EA, in their own article, have named TSR their number 1 fansite.  

EA would surely not have invited any site that so blatantly seems to violate their EULA, and certainly wouldn't hold them up as a great fansite example unless EA absolutely agrees with what TSR is doing.

This fansite event has screwed everything up.  Speak up, EA!  What is the REAL truth?!  

[AwwBoo]

Really?  Hmm.. perhaps you need to read Nouk's conversation with an EA representative.  I believe that's what this original thread was about.  They seemed pretty clear on the matter.

But that conversation is looking a bit dubious now.  This was just one EA bod replying (probably at support level) and it just doesn't match with TSR rubbing shoulders with EA Corporate at this year's fansite event.  EA, in their own article, have named TSR their number 1 fansite.  

EA would surely not have invited any site that so blatantly seems to violate their EULA, and certainly wouldn't hold them up as a great fansite example unless EA absolutely agrees with what TSR is doing.

This fansite event has screwed everything up.  Speak up, EA!  What is the REAL truth?!  

I am quicker to believe an actual written achknowledgement that paysites are illegal then some silly fan day event.  TSR is using this to say "Oh looky, EA loves us and agrees with our policy!"  I don't see that at all.   I see a company that is attempting to support it's fan-base, and is doing some serious advertising.  A lot of people create for TSR.  This seems to be a way of them supporting the creators, and advertising the new and upcoming expansion pack to a large audience.  No where does it say they agree or endorse TSR's policy.  Still, having TSR listed as their top fan site is misguided and it does make me wonder if they realize how much money TSR is making off of their game.  I have a feeling they are pretty misinformed.

Thing is if it was just one letter, I might agree that EA has not taken a stand.  However, there are many many letters out there from various EA employees saying that paysites are illegal.  I've yet to see one that says that they support paysites.  

I would like to see just one written letter/conversation that says that EA supports paysites.  Just one.  Otherwise, I'd say at least in my mind, it's still pretty clear.

Oh, and thank you, Ry.    I'll be back in bed soon and hopefully feeling better.