So it begins... Or something slightly less dramatic

[BlueSoup]

This is the reason everyone should adopt your policy.

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=165332

The mesh is no longer available.

Of course it is.

http://www.rogepost.com/n/9991734246

[Doursim]

I may eventually adopt this, but I think I would keep my mesh redistribution to free meshes only, and whatever I found on TSR.  I'm not a member of TSR so that means I got it on free rotation anyway  We'll see.  I'm interested to see how much flac you take from the paysite defenders.

[simplystella]

Also Stella, I am not trying to plunge the sims community into internet anarchy... heh. I'm actually following a generally accepted code of conduct by game modders for just about every other game. Give credit and a link back or way for the original creator to be contacted and everything is kosher.

Eheh, I don't think you are either.
But, while I generally understand and approve this "policy", I'm not sure I would use it on my site/uploads, since I try my best to respect other creators policies...
Yes, I know, said by a file sharer this might sound pretty self-contradictory XD, but I can't help but think it this way.
I'm curious, tho, to see how you'll manage to go trough this thing and how will downloaders and creators react to this.

I'm also pretty curious to know Hysterical Paroxism point of view about this subject, since she's a member here.
I quite enjoy her meshes, and I find her redistribution Policy pretty restrictive, especially since she's a MTS artist (I have nothing against being a creator over MtS, but lately its downloads are more likely to be down then up and it's such a tragedy to download stuff there).
I'd love to know wich reasons make her decide to forbid the redistribution of her meshes and how would she feel if someone would ever redistribute her meshes somewhere, with credits and everything of course. :?:

[HystericalParoxysm]

Heh, I was thinking of chiming in before now but it looks like I've been called out, so here goes.  I'm gonna try to keep this short (y'know, for ME).  I tend to ramble.  Still, go get a beverage now.

I'll happily admit that the small amount of recognition and worthless "fame" I get from creating is pleasing to me.  I would still totally do this stuff without it, but hey, it's nice to have someone come and say thanks now and then, or write me a note that they enjoy my work.  If folks get the meshes from me, more of them tend to get both the original recolours and my other stuff - and may take a moment to go "Hey, her stuff is cool."  I like that.  Every creator likes that.  So, on one hand, it keeps people coming to me to get my stuff - I'm totally cool with people posting recolours, using my textures, and even using my textures for other stuff if they give credit - the only thing I really hold onto is my meshes.

In addition, I will always ensure that my work is available.  I have (and will always have, through my dad's small hosting business) free hosting for whatever I want to slap up on the internet.  My work will always be available, always for free, even after I quit Sims 2.  I believe there's still my old Creatures 1 and 2 modding work in a web archive somewhere (not that anyone plays it anymore but if they did) as I've done game modding before, although certainly nothing like meshing.  I'm not the throw a fit and take my ball and go home type - I've been pissed and tired and annoyed enough that I've wanted to quit the whole community plenty of times before, but I'd never pull my stuff.

I occasionally update meshes as well, so I would prefer people come to me to get the mesh for recolours.  There are a few of my meshes that... I would like to fix up sometime soon, with some imperfections that probably only I notice, but are still there and need fixing.  Downloaders sent to me for the original mesh will get the latest version, still working for whatever recolours, and because they have to visit me to get it, they may see important information I've posted about it, or related links they may be interested in (like a version for another age group).  

There are always exceptions, though...  If someone whose name I knew (like liegenschonheit - and I almost spelled that right without looking) and was a creator I respected for their cool stuffs, I don't think I'd have a problem with just about anyone doing -anything- with my work (with possible exception of my hair meshes, as seeing someone mess up what I have slaved over the way I do them would just kill me).  Provided they just ask me first.  I have the utmost respect for artistry and good creators, and if you show me that courtesy and respect, I'm willing to bend my terms, especially if you're making something totally cool.

I don't feel my policy is over-restrictive.  Many creators don't want you using their textures at all for recolours of their meshes, which strikes me as a bit silly.  Anyone's welcome to use my textures with a little link and credit for whatever, even non-sim-related.  It's just (I think) a small thing to ask, the little bit of respect and "professional" courtesy that I hope for in the creation side of this community.

My work has been stolen, redistributed without credits, and I've had people claim (using parts of my original upload text) that my work was their own.  I have learned to ignore it.  We're on the internet.  That happens.  I want to continue to enjoy creating so I turn a blind eye, and I try not to let it bother me.  

I think it would upset me if someone whose work I had enjoyed and whose artistry I had recognized went and did so without taking 5 minutes to send me a PM asking first.  I expect it from the rabble but I would hope the truly talented would understand the time and effort it takes to make something nice, and extend me that small courtesy.

BTW, since the most recent sets of upgrades and improvements, the downloads on MTS2 have been pretty darn solid.  I've had no major issues or borked files since then, both as me and logging in as Sussi testing things and uploading her stuff through that.  

[tIIsuggas]

I think liegenschonheit is more pissed about the fly by night types, who pull their stuff on a whim.  They aren't likely to have updated stuff.

HP you are well established.  I couldn't see a problem with linking back to you for meshes.

Maybe liegenschonheit could put a disclaimer on the site, stating that their may be updates and recolours to the original mesh, with a link back.

[HideTheRum]

The greedy downloader lurking (lurking?!) in me immediately thought yeah this is great news!, and so I voted yes, but what I had in mind were in fact the paysite meshes. I actually think that to include meshes would be absolutely fair, in our piratesque peculiar way, as long as paysite meshes are concerned  :mrgreen:

That said, I really don't see the reason to include free meshes against the freesites' creators' policies. I mean, why offend the freesites creators? These people do deserve and should have from all the community that solid respect that no amount of whining from us, the downloaders, should justify to prevaricate.

Besides, for me it's like HistericalParoxism just said, when you have to go get the mesh you are also offered the opportunity to take a look at stuff you may never have seen otherwise. Sure, I often so roll my eyes at having to go seek for the mesh, but many times in just that exact way I have stopped at the site where the mesh is and have started browsing through stuff, even forgetting about where I got there from, and thus finding out about great creators whom I would maybe never had a chance to know if I had found the mesh included (um...consecutio temporum? verbs?? help! :shock: )

[liegenschonheit]

Like I said before, posting meshes by free creators who don't take their ball and run away wasn't really the main point in this move at all. I held off doing it because I didn't want to step on the toes of those creators at all, especially since HP has a very good point about updates and that kind of thing. You'll notice that I mentioned that whenever possible, people should go to the original site or thread and get the updates or information if available.

HP, I'm sorry if I have upset you personally or any other creator who has such a good track record for quality and consideration of downloaders. You are right, I should have asked for your permission before uploading your meshes out of courtesy. That one was shame on me.

The caveat in all of this is that I couldn't pick and choose which meshes to post against the creator's TOS, and which not to because then it would become a big mess. I hate to say it, but I did expect that a few people who I would not otherwise like to upset would probably not like the move.

I have not changed the policy about links to the sites that the meshes come from. I also love following the chain of neat sites to find something really cool, and I'm not about to break that. Every item will have a mesh linkback whenever possible (meaning the site hasn't been removed). I'm not trying to take the credit for any of the meshes.

[Quinctia]

That said, I really don't see the reason to include free meshes against the freesites' creators' policies. I mean, why offend the freesites creators? These people do deserve and should have from all the community that solid respect that no amount of whining from us, the downloaders, should justify to prevaricate.

Well, I'm not a fan of restrictive mesh distribution policies as a downloader, because if I have to go to multiple sites to get meshes and the like, that increases my chances that I'll have a broken item in my game.  What if my internet goes bonkers and I give up on getting the mesh?  What if the site's down and the same thing happens?  What if I downloaded multiple items on the same page that need multiple outside meshes and I forget to download one?  They all end in useless item for me.

I understand creators wanting to keep control over their meshes, but to me it seems like an all or nothing deal.  I'd want my mesh to go with the recolor, because if it slips the downloaders mind to get it, or there's a problem with my hosting or what-not...if my name sticks in their head, then they'll think that the reason it didn't work was me!

It does stick in my head when people don't allow mesh redistribution, and I generally don't download the recolor and I certainly don't follow the link to the mesher's site.

The one exception to this is links that stay onsite...to a mesh page, or internal MTS2 links to other MTS2 creations...but I figure half of that is because it would be silly to have fifty copies of the same mesh uploaded to one site.

I already have too much junk in my game.  If I have to go a million places to get things, you're helping me exercise my self-control.  I didn't really need that outfit, anyway.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Well, no, I can't say I'm too pleased.  I didn't realize you had actually already -gone- and redistributed one of my meshes, which does bug me, yeah, because you're someone I would have said yes to had you asked (and who I respected as an artist, before today) nor was that mesh hard to find or get.

I don't really see it as a problem if someone disappears, but if it's accessible and it's free, why?

I do understand where you're coming from and wanting to make things easy for your downloaders... but I -am- kind of upset by this.  It's your site - why NOT pick and choose based on whether the mesh is going to be accessible?  If it goes down or whatever, fine, but.... err.....  why post meshes that are freely and easily available, when it is not necessary and will only serve to upset the creators?  I do understand a mesh in a haystack things, and sites going down, and I hate pay sites as much as the rest of ya'll, but this just doesn't make sense to me.  It's just not necessary, and the only real justification I can see behind it is enabling laziness.

Like I said, I ain't gonna take my ball and go home, and I try not to let stupid shit like this get to me, but I find myself continually disappointed in this community... and I find myself wondering why I spend my time creating for it more and more.  If even creators I held in high esteem will simply ignore the (what I thought were quite open) policies on something freely given, what's the point, exactly, in sharing my work with the community?

[Dragon]

Well, with this update on my site, I've switched to a mesh-included policy for all of my downloads (yes, the creators still get credit and links and all that). This includes meshes with TOSes that say "DON'T!" and paysite meshes. All the constant site going up and down thing and people pulling their shit or making it pay pissed me off, and the fact that it was getting too hard for downloaders to get to the meshes they needed prompted me to just go ahead with it.

It's a good thing. It would be even better if more sites would adopt a policy similar to this one >.>

ahem *hint hint*

err, before people ask, www.digitalperversion.net

I approve too, some times I just get so irritated downloading then find I out I have to search for the mesh somewhere else.

Dragon

[Dragon]

Yes. I hate it when I find a good outfit and I can't get the mesh, because it's from a site that has closed or something.

I ran into the same very thing this morning when I found some skirts with boots I wanted and the mesh is on a site no longer there...

Dragon

[HideTheRum]

You see? What is happening about HystericalParoxysm is quite significant and IMO was absolutely avoidable, if only a little more respect for those who deserve it came to mind more often that not  :wink:  

In the community I am a mere downloader, I do not run a site nor have I any remotely artistic skill whatsoever, but somehow I do understand how creators must feel about their work, and the point remains that when the mesh is FREE, comes from a FREE SITE and is easily accessible, including it in the recolour or whatever without asking and against redistribution policies is a tastless and disrespectful thing to do. C'mon...we downloaders might be lazy but we definitely should not complain at all when it comes to FREE STUFF, even if this means go and follow link after link in order to get a mesh. Which, BTW, hardly ever happens after all...most of the times I just click one link and find the mesh I need, AND when I don't it's hardly ever a mesher's sloppiness to be blamed: it's in fact mostly because the recolor uploader has posted a general link to the mesh site's homepage instead of the specific link needed.

And even in the worst scenario - mesh corrupted, site down, etc. - we can't say junk is not easily deletable from our game :wink: Deleting it  might be boring and all, but if a choice has to be made, I'd rather keep the respect of FREE stuff creators than treat downloaders like spoiled kids and satisfy their every childish whining. We're talking about little signs of gratitude for the free creators, so why step over them too?

[lingeringviolet]

Since Liegenschonheit is giving credits and links back, I don't see how she's violating anything or anyone.
    And if one more person says that the downlaoders are spoiled, I'll scream. The creators (not all by any means, but a good number of them) are the ones who are spoiled rotten in this community. Someone learns how to use Photoshop and Milkshape and suddenly that person is no longer a mere mortal, s/he becomes all-knowing and the masses flock to them. Those page-long TOSs and what have you are nothing but ego stroking and control issues. Supposedly, you put it out there for people to use, distribution is a part of that.
    Yes, the creators deserve our thanks and respect. Respect, however, is a two-way street. Unfortunately, long-winded sermons from on high and ridiculously restrictive policies are often what we get in return. I think what Liegen is doing is great and I hope it spreads to all sites.


(To those creators who make beautiful things for us and have short and fair TOSs, I really do thank you and you certainly not included in my rant above.)

[BlackPearl]

For petes sake, if Liegen asked every fool who makes a mesh (free or pay) if it's "okay with them" and thier ego for her to distribute...with credits I might add...then she would still be getting sign offs.  Who wants to make a whole list of yes and no "artists"?

If you are wondering why you create for this "community" then quit.  This shit is a game and it's fun to make new things for it.  If you want recognition, praise or money--get a patent.  If not, then don't whine.

I think any creator would be honored that quality artists recolor their meshes and distribute them with credits to the author AND links to their site included.

It is certainly better to be pissed off than pissed on, so get mad if you must.  Honestly...do any of these people pay your salary??

 :roll:

[yippee]

I too hate the nice warm feeling I get from the page long threats/TOSs HP posts in her each and every download at mts2.