I smell bullshit

[Captain Feathersword]

NeptuneSuzy: No rocks from me, but would it be that hard to leave TSR?
I don't think that all FAs are paid, I am more than willing to believe that Thomas takes advantage of the less mercenary creators who appreciate the honour of beng offered FAship. What saddens me is that he has a hold over you. Why should your friendships be held hostage? I have met some nice people at TSR too, and although I have not been there as long as you, nor do I have the added link of them hosting any creations, I did find at first that I did not want to leave. In the end I found things that matter more, and the friends I made are friends still. Not all of them, but those who have chosen to stay do not want their eyes opened and I prefer to talk to people who can think for themselves.
Sure TSR is convenient, but when was that a good reason for overlooking all the things they do that are wrong? By staying you are helping Thomas, by leaving you could introduce new simmers to the world outside TSR. A friend worth having would keep in touch and you might even find new friends.
Most of us pirates are actually nice people.

[lordrichter]

Sheesh.  I wrote my own post but realized it was pretty much what Pixel said.  I can elaborate though, since I have some experience in this stuff.

But, everyone from BlueSoup on down knows what I am going to say.

Filesharing isn't legal if you don't have the right to share, and just because a Sims 2 site posts something for pay doesn't change that.  Doesn't matter if you paid for it or not because you never paid for the right to distribute it. If you think you did, you'd better check your receipt again because you got ripped off.  I'm pretty sure there is an extra charge for that.

It'd be really nice if the IP laws were written such that electronic copies of stuff could be distributed in an unlimited manner.  The laws are pretty much written exactly the opposite of that, even in Malaysia.

So, while it is all nice a dramatic that everyone jabbers on about how there is nothing wrong, the fact of the matter is that even in Malaysia, that is not true.

Not that anyone is ever going to suffer from filesharing Sims 2 package files from paysites.  Infringing on someones Sims 2 content copyright is pretty trivial.

[Captain Flint]

No Rocks from me either, glad to see you are willing to put your items up for free and not just at TSR,
I also believe not every FA gets a huge profit from their creations but there are those who do' which makes it hard to know who does and who does not which in turn makes FA's look bad in general,

Question though: why be an FA on a paysite if you decide to post your creations for free? if it is about "friendship" wouldnt it be better to know your friends would come to your own site to support you?

[NeptuneSuzy]

idtaminger: And I think most of the negative comments aren't directed at MTS2 per se but some of Delphy's more recent actions, and those of his moderators (see above, around, lots of discussion on that here)

I understand that, but since the mission of PMBD is to reduce the number of Paysites, then it stands to reason that promoting free sites (like mts2) would be in PMBD's best interest in the long run.

idtaminger, Well, w/ the amount of dissenting posters that regularly drop by to voice their side of things, I'd say this site has a pretty good record for full disclosure.

I agree PMBD is an open, free speech, forum. Credit goes out for that!  But I'm refering to disclosure that PMBD's practice of copying bitmaps etc can in some cases be theft of intellectual property. I think disclosure (or maybe I should say clarification) should made by  PMBD that this can indeed be theft but they are willing to do it anyway. Just honest communication because some people posting here seem to think that isn't true.  

sickpuppy: Baa-Aa.

Is that the best you can do?  Or can you sum up a reasonable and respectable argument for me indicating why I'm a sheep? I'm always up for a good debate.



Captain Feathersword, Points well taken! But no fear, I'm not held hostage,



Captain Flint, Again, points well taken!  

Thanks for avoiding those rocks! LOL!

[...]

I find it a little disheartening that many veiws in this thread are harsh and one sided. And there also seems to be a fair amount anger here.

One starts a movement, one gets a fair amount of crazy zealots along with it - at least, in a community as insane as the Sims2 community. Please note that there are people around who engage in intelligent dicussion, especially if they aren't approached with finger-wagging and scolding. Do that and you get heckled, as no one likes to be scolded as if they are causing the deaths of children over video game content.

Without mts2, a Free site, we wouldn't have the support to make CC.

I... don't think so. Have you ever looked at the modding communities for any other moddable game out there? Arguably, the modding community might not be as big or involved or advanced as it is without MTS2, but it sure as hell wouldn't be nonexistant, because EA DID provide Joe User with the tools to make basic CC, and we made perfectly good use of those tools, limited as they are, before third-party tools came out. We simply would have had to do what other modding communities do, most likely, and have the official site be the hub around which the community revolves.

I'm also disheartened and surprised by some of the responses to DrPixel

You shouldn't be surprised - he came in here waggling his finger and scolding, and it was obvious he hadn't done more than skimmed any of the more intelligent arguments (and I'm being generous in that assement). His post sounded a lot like he was more interested in telling us what HORRIBLE PEOPLE WE ALL ARE.  That's not going to go over well ever, no matter the intentions of the person doing it or the issue at hand.

That may be true, but copying someone's file in order to share it is also wrong. It's always going to be theft of intellectual property, that's just a fact.

No, I'm afraid not. It is in a legal gray area, but much like music sharing, video sharing, sending of digitized artwork to other people over IM - the big companies would like you to believe there is infringement there, but when money isn't changing hands, nooot so much.

As an artist, I don't get het up because someone printed out my artwork to put up on their wall, or sent a copy of an art file to a friend of theirs. I know some people do get upset, as they've bought into this myth that any use of their artwork outside of their direct control is a violation. However, it isn't.

Also, while you very much do have copyright to any handpainted texture or texture made from a photograph, you do not own copyright to the package file. Putting that texture into a package file means you agree to EA's EULA, which says you must not use commercially.

If you want to use your textures commercially for Sims 2 stuff and be totally in the legal free and clear, then you'd have to sell them without putting them into that package file, with instructions on what to do with it. It'd be sleezy as hell, but you wouldn't be violating any EULA.

For me personally, after I create something I don't really care where it ends up etc. But someone else might. And the fact is that by copying their work you have infringed on their rights.

Again, nope, copying does not automatically equal an infringement.

And honestly, anyone who gets upset with what other people do with their work in a non-legally infringing manner once that person has put it out in public probably shouldn't be putting things out in public for other people to look at and use. Fact of the matter is, people WILL do fanart/write fanfic/copy/share/reuse/remix/even outright steal other people's stuff once they've so much as seen it. And fact of the matter is, even with as convoluted and strangling as modern copyright law is, there isn't a whole hell of a lot most people can do about other people doing those things UNLESS it's in a legally infringing manner - usually, outright theft and involving money. Someone remixing someone else's Sims 2 textures, no. That is, at the very most, a bit on the unethical side... and generally, only a bit. It's a very contemporary phenomenon that people get so upset over other people being even vaguely derivative of themselves or others.

If a person gets very upset every time someone does something with a copy of their work that they didn't personally authorize, then they are not yet ready to share their work with others. It's going to happen, and there is no possible way to prevent use of one's work that one doesn't authorize personally EXCEPT for not sharing it with anyone in the first place. Once a person can deal with this reality, once they can deal with actual infringement in a manner that will ensure the quickest possible resolution with the least amount of drama, then they are ready to share their stuff with the world.

Filesharing isn't legal if you don't have the right to share

Don't be too sure of that. Despite the howling by record labels, for example, it's not black and white legally. Especially not under the terms of the EA EULA - go back and read it thoroughly, and then note what I mentioned above about package files.

[AnneBonny]

Thanks for the compliment.....

Welcome. Thank you for demostrating that not all FA's are bound and determined to make a profit off of their creations. I'm also glad to see that you did not come here with malice in mind. What a refreshing change of pace to see that there are civil-minded individuals in Tom's roster.

[sickpuppy]

NeptuneSuzy: who said I was Baaing at you?? But if the shoe fits, wear it, be my guest!

PS: if you really care to read my 'extended opinion', as you can see if you glance to the left, I have over 100 posts. So if you really care what I think (or were you simply trying to look 'smart'?), try searching on my userid to find my posts, you know you can do that don't you? Go read.  I do not feel the need to repeat my opinion in every thread. Do you?

[Quorneater]

NeptuneSuzy, if the TSR folk are people you think of as friends, can't you try and talk them into reversing their idea of making FA stuff subscription only and put it back into free file rotation?  My main complaint about paysites is those players who *can't* subscribe and therefore have to simply go without stuff.   I didn't have a complaint against TSR before this recent decision.

I don't see why they made all the non-FA stuff free anyway.  It didn't seem to me to be such a bad idea having the subscribers pay for the sheer convenience of getting files any time they liked, while non-subbers just had to wait a few weeks till they rotated.  At least no one was straight-out deprived of certain files forever that way.

[lordrichter]

Filesharing isn't legal if you don't have the right to share

Don't be too sure of that. Despite the howling by record labels, for example, it's not black and white legally. Especially not under the terms of the EA EULA - go back and read it thoroughly, and then note what I mentioned above about package files.

Everyone gets all excited and tingly about the EA EULA and for the most part you can toss it out.  EULA's have never been proven in court, so any rights you think that they may grant or deny are subject to interpretation.

At most you can use it as a guide regarding what you can and cannot do with original EA material using the original EA tools.

The catch is that other intellectual property gets mixed in with the EA stuff and there is not a damn thing that EA can do about it and they certainly can't do it in an EULA.

So long as you are not spreading around stuff that EA wants you to pay for, like the original game, expansions, and crap packs, it seems pretty clear that they don't care what you do with their stuff, regardless of what the EULA says.

But, EA cannot stop someone from adding their stuff to the game and they don't want to.  Meshes and textures can be, and occasionally are, 100% new and unique content that actually belongs to someone other than EA.  More often than not, it is a mixture of EA (or someone elses) content and the Sims 2 content creator's content.

That content is copyrighted and if the owner wants to get into a tizzy about postings here, they can do that.  It is illegal almost everywhere to post it while the owner is having a tizzy.

But, there ain't much they can do about it.  No one is going to spend thousands of dollars in court trying to remedy filesharing of something that has trivial value.  Some content creators don't want that anyway because then they would have to prove what is theirs, that they have the right to create and distribute it, and all that.  For the rest, it is just to much of a hassle.

Copying equates to infringement a lot more often than it does not, so one needs to be careful making blanket statements about infringement.

My personal belief is that everyone who creates Sims 2 content should encourage unlimited free use by others, including distribution, recolor, and modification.  Damn few content creators agree with me.

And, my beef with MTS2, other than it is down for some server crap right now, is that people seem to constantly reference pay meshes, particularly crap on TSR.  In my personal utopia, all recolors and textures come with the required mesh right there so that if I need it I can download it without having to go anywhere else to get it.

[NeptuneSuzy]

Renatus: No, I'm afraid not. It is in a legal gray area, but much like music sharing, video sharing, sending of digitized artwork to other people over IM - the big companies would like you to believe there is infringement there, but when money isn't changing hands, nooot so much.

This simply isn't true, copyright is not a grey area. When any individual puts an idea from their head into something tangible they own a copyright to that tangible item. This cannot be copied by another individual. It has nothing to do with money being made. I'm not sure why people have drawn this false conclusion. it's about intellectual property plain and simple.

The creator may not mind their work being copied, but that doesn't change the rules of copyright.


And BTW, putting an original bmp into an EA package does not relinquish the creator's rights to their ORIGINAL work. But hey the EULA was never intended for individuals or Sim sites in the first place. it is a protection for EA from infringment by other Large corporations.

[sickpuppy]

Besides, it is no easy task to tromp thru all the free stuff looking for those few items worth downloading.  So why not put the FA stuff in rotation? Seems pointless and silly and vindictive for TSR to change policy now.

[NeptuneSuzy]

sickpuppy: NeptuneSuzy: who said I was Baaing at you?? But if the shoe fits, wear it, be my guest!

I guess I figured since your post came directly after mine that you were Baaing at me.....  if not me then who were you Baaing at?

teadrinker: NeptuneSuzy, if the TSR folk are people you think of as friends, can't you try and talk them into reversing their idea of making FA stuff subscription only and put it back into free file rotation? My main complaint about paysites is those players who *can't* subscribe and therefore have to simply go without stuff. I didn't have a complaint against TSR before this recent decision.

Well when I said "freinds" at TSR I meant other FA's, creators, and downloaders. Not the site owners. I really have no influence over their decisions...sorry.  


.

[Quorneater]

Ah well in *that* case, why not as a group all move elsewhere?  You don't need to lose your connections with your friends at all

[tIIsuggas]

Well when I said "freinds" at TSR I meant other FA's, creators, and downloaders. Not the site owners. I really have no influence over their decisions...sorry.  

Not on your own, maybe not.  But, if there were other FA's who agreed with this, then you would maybe have some say?

[sickpuppy]

No, it didn't come 'directly after' your post. Me is beginning to think thou protest too much....  :lol:

Had to go look at the spellling: I was baaing at 'I agree with Dr. Pixel' lordrichter who, also, it appears, at least to me, can't seem to decide which direction s/he is travelingin.