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Author Topic: The sheeps are at it again!  (Read 50629 times)
PirateBooty
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The sheeps are at it again!
« Reply #135 on: 2006 December 15, 02:18:15 »
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Yes, TSR charges the VAT to all euro subs.
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idtaminger
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« Reply #136 on: 2006 December 15, 05:03:32 »
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Quote from: "Echo"

Well, that, the bullying that goes on, and the fact that some of your number are doing this specifically to break down an uneasy peace in the community.


And there's been no bullying on the other side? And what point is keeping an uneasy peace when disrupting it causes nothing more than bruised egos? It's not like it's Darfur or anything.

Quote from: "Echo"

Quote
Arguing back and forth within the community isn't ever going to do shit.
Well duh... But then what exactly is the point of membership in this forum? Or of actively starting threads to provoke such arguments?

Quote
As opposed to being labeled uncool and unintelligent for not agreeing with Delphy?
Point taken. Although for clarity's sake, I read "cool" as "cool headed" rather than the American hig as it can get over a bunch of pixels in a game. The pay side is much dirtier, IMO, b/c of the censorship and secret info sharing. But greed makes pplh-schoolism of "popular". Just one of those cultural things I guess.

I joined for the gossip, and the occasional outlet for bitching. And gems like Carla Niven. :lol: And I didn't start this thread.

And even if cool meant "cool headed", disagreeing w/ Delphy is a pretty shoddy reason for labeling someone unintelligent and irrational.

And I think it's pretty obvious that TSR profits just from the fact that they're paying hundreds per set to certain FAs to crank out the creations. (The specific amount may be debatable, but that certain creators are getting paid is definitely a fact) But I think the tax bit pretty much ends this.

All this nonsense is pretty pointless, and I've really rambled on for more than is necessary, but the blatant bias bothers me, esp for someone attempting to argue from a "neutral" standpoint. I admire you for your part in some pretty awesome creations, but really, wake up and smell the salt.

The pay side isn't some saintly group just hoping for control over their work and getting pissed upon by a cranky old man. There is definite profit involved. Questionable morals and methods abound on both sides, although if you ask me, censorship and secret paypal info sharing are a lot worse than sharing pixels w/out permission via the web.

You say you're arguing the behavior, not the legality. Well, why not take a good look at the behavior of the group you're defending? If you can honestly examine their behavior and report not one instance of questionable or downright unethical behavior (And please don't do the "do you have proof?" comeback yet again, b/c I'm pretty sure for each instance mentioned someone here will have the proof you're looking for.), then feel free to tell me to STFU.
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LesserOr
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« Reply #137 on: 2006 December 15, 05:17:57 »
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Quote from: "Echo"
I think that it is fair bet that even if it were taken to court, EA would support the position that custom content is owned by the CC creator, simply because claiming otherwise would leave it open to a ratings nightmare given all the adult CC out there. Of course, that's not really a satisfactory legal argument, which is why I did my research into copyright as it applies to derivative works in the first place. And I still believe those findings hold true.

No, they wouldn't, because EA can't do so and retain their copyright on the package format.

Package is not a free-use format. It's not like mp3, txt, jpg, or png. Those formats have free license to use and reproduce, and you do own those once they're altered.

You enter into an agreement with EA by making the file and playing the game. It's in the EULA.
You choose to give up your rights to your work by putting it into their format. That's also why they can take your ideas without asking.
You don't have to like it- I don't care for it myself, and I wish EA would give credit to content innovators.
But that's what you and everyone else agreed to do, unless you purchase the rights from EA.

Currently the law doesn't see mod content as being the fault of EA, just as it wouldn't blame fan-made Mickey Mouse porn on Disney.
What the law sees is mod and content creators voluntarily giving up their rights to EA.

Quote from: "Echo"

When it comes to paysites, my original statement made it clear that if one can prove that someone is making profit from Sims content, and one can also prove that no agreement exists between the creator and EA, then that is proof that the work is not authorized and so it can be treated it as if it were any other EA content.

For the first point, many of the paysites are blatantly for-profit, and don't make any excuses. But any time files are restricted until money changes hands, that's a sale. "Memberships" are sales as well, despite what people want to think.

"I'll sell you this card, which has the address which will get you the files. See, I'm not selling files, just a card!"
Doesn't hold up in court.

For the second, use of the package file automatically binds them into an agreement with EA.

Quote from: "Echo"

(As a distantly related side note to this, EA made a modification to the EULA for the original Sims tools and materials after a similar discussion to this, specifically called out recouping costs associated with a website as legitimate and permissable. Not really relevant here, as it was for a different game, just an interesting tid-bit.)

Which is still bandwidth and repair costs. Nothing else (employees, games, personal income, etc.) falls under that definition.
And as I pointed out before- the current game doesn't hold these permissions, which means EA doesn't have to honor their off-hand promise.

Quote from: "Echo"

As for games allowing modders to relicense (and/or charge for) custom content, you are right in that very few games have done so in the past. However, at least one game (which I personally can't stand) is doing it now, and doing so extremely successfully.

This is a totally different situation.
The Second Life EULA specifically allows their modders to do so, and in fact has an infrastructure based in-game to provide them the means.
The Sims EULAs specifically do the opposite, forbidding sales entirely.

Quote from: "Echo"

 And that's why it's a derivative, which doesn't preclude a creator's copyright on the new content.

Your copyright doesn't overwrite EA's copyright. You own it only so long as you keep it out of EA's package. Once you put it in, you have given it to EA.
It's harsh, but the only way to keep total control of your work is to keep it out of their format.

Quote from: "Echo"

Can you prove the profit legally?

You can when the site owner talks about their employees, what they've bought with "donations", and how the site provides their only income.
They're providing a paper trail that proves the money isn't going into bandwidth, as they agreed.

As I said above, they are restricting product behind a money barrier. Even if we pretend they put all that money into bandwidth, their sites are still set up as stores. The law takes actions over words.


I know your real argument in all of this is that PMBD shouldn't distribute files without the CCC's permission. That's entirely valid.
But it's not illegal and wishing will not make it so.
C'est la vie.


The tax issue: this also depends on how much money they're making.
Anything over bandwidth cost is breaking with EA, but it may not get them into tax trouble with their country.
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Surelyfunke
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« Reply #138 on: 2006 December 15, 05:35:14 »
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Sorry to interrupt the serious discussion here, but someone has just offered to pay me $8.95.

I am laughing so hard I can't even come up with a response.
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Echo
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« Reply #139 on: 2006 December 15, 05:39:13 »
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Quote from: "idtaminger"
And there's been no bullying on the other side?.
I already aquiesced the point that there was bullying on the other side. I don't much care for that either, and will continue to do my best not to participate in it.

Quote
And I think it's pretty obvious that TSR profits just from the fact that they're paying hundreds per set to certain FAs to crank out the creations. <cut for brevity> But I think the tax bit pretty much ends this.
Okay then. TSR is making a profit. In copying it you're still breaking a contract. And TSR is hardly the only site you've targeted.

Quote
<cut> ... but the blatant bias bothers me, esp for someone attempting to argue from a "neutral" standpoint.
Me neutral? Hell no! Apologies if I gave that impression, I'm certainly not a neutral party in any of this. I don't own a paysite and I haven't downloaded or contributed content here, but when push comes to shove I'll side with creators over copiers (almost) every time.

(edit because more posts happened while I wasn't looking)
Quote
The Second Life EULA specifically allows their modders to do so, and in fact has an infrastructure based in-game to provide them the means. The Sims EULAs specifically do the opposite, forbidding sales entirely.
I know, and agree wholeheartedly - SL and the Sims are completely different in this respect. The comment above was purely in response to the comments that no game has ever allowed users to retain rights to their custom content, and the related argument I have seen before, saying that no company would be stupid enough to allow cc creators to sell content based on data.
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lemmiwinks
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« Reply #140 on: 2006 December 15, 05:44:57 »
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EA Maxis is the creator. I side with them.
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Solowren
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« Reply #141 on: 2006 December 15, 05:45:37 »
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Quote from: "Surelyfunke"
Sorry to interrupt the serious discussion here, but someone has just offered to pay me $8.95.

I am laughing so hard I can't even come up with a response.


Noice!  Shocked
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BlueSoup
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« Reply #142 on: 2006 December 15, 05:54:38 »
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Quote from: "Echo"
I don't own a paysite and I haven't downloaded or contributed content here, but when push comes to shove I'll side with creators over copiers (almost) every time.


Who's a copyer?  We certainly don't copy or claim any of this shite as our own. We simply put it up because the alleged creators you speak of seem to think they're entitled to cash for using Photoshop and SimPE.
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idtaminger
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« Reply #143 on: 2006 December 15, 05:55:44 »
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Quote from: "Lemmiwinks"
EA Maxis is the creator. I side with them.


Ditto.
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Echo
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« Reply #144 on: 2006 December 15, 06:00:17 »
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EA Maxis is the creator. I side with them.
How exactly is refusing to recognize a custom creator's ownership of their original content protecting EA/Maxis? (Irrespective of sites being pay or free.)
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lemmiwinks
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« Reply #145 on: 2006 December 15, 06:04:17 »
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Quote from: "Echo"
Quote
EA Maxis is the creator. I side with them.
How exactly is refusing to recognize a custom creator's ownership of their original content protecting EA/Maxis? (Irrespective of sites being pay or free.)


They have created nothing, just modified someone else's work.
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Echo
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« Reply #146 on: 2006 December 15, 06:17:24 »
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Quote from: "Lemmiwinks"
They have created nothing, just modified someone else's work.
Which brings us right back to where we started - is custom content an authorized derivative, or is it an unauthorized derivative? You know my opinion, and I know yours. I think this path has pretty much reached full circle now.
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Pescado
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« Reply #147 on: 2006 December 15, 06:36:30 »
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Quote from: "Echo"
Which brings us right back to where we started - is custom content an authorized derivative, or is it an unauthorized derivative? You know my opinion, and I know yours. I think this path has pretty much reached full circle now.

Custom content is stated as authorized, but it also carries a number of strings attached to it, amongst which includes the fact that it can be placed on noncommercial websites for the benefit of the community. Which is what we do. Clearly it is not to the benefit of the community to be ripped off by anyone other than EA! Who would buy all the stuff packs if they blew all their cash on paysites?
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Quorneater
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« Reply #148 on: 2006 December 15, 08:19:29 »
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That could be part of the anti-paysite campaign, remind people to save their money for EPs so Maxis will go on releasing them.
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Marhis
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« Reply #149 on: 2006 December 15, 12:51:41 »
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I want, now, stick close to the copyrights issue only - pay or free not relevant.

Let's assume the derivative work partial copyrights thing: it could be, I'm not saying it is wrong.
A creator, thus, has a mesh/texture/whatever which is made from scratch, it's his work, he has copyrights on it, that's ok.
When you adapt that work on sims stuff (i.e. apply the texture on a dress, or link the mesh to the other sims resources) and put it in a sims package format, you are transforming your work in a game content, isn't it?
Bare mesh = creator's full work
Mesh adapted to sims, and working in game = game content

Quote
Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc. and its licensors. All Rights Reserved.


You have to write this in every fansite: it's an EA mandatory request.
Thus, we have 2 issues, here, mutually excluding each other:

1) Your creation is game content, OR is not (it can't be both yes and not)
2) EA has some rights (partial) OR all rights reserved.

If it's a game content, then it's EA copyright. You wrote this on it. If EA has all rights reserved, then you can't have some. Again, you wrote this.

This is about copyrights. The TOS is another issue: your TOS may be, for example, "you can use my work only on Sunday". Ok, then, if I extract your texture, or your mesh, from the package, I will use it only on Sunday, but the extracted one. The game content as a whole (the package) is under EA's TOS, not yours.

Said that, I'm absolutely ok for credits due, and such: it's a fair behaviour. But it's not related to legal stuff at all, to me.

(Edited because I'm stupid)
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