Poor Atwat....

[Immortelle]

For someone who praises logic over emotion, Pescado is a highly emotional and irrational individual.  He easily submits to anger, hatred, pessimism and other such negative emotions.  Negativity, Pescado, can be a highly self destructive force.  Negativity ultimately generates further negativity.  Which means further reason to be miserable.

 Aristotle stated in his writings on the Ethics, that the meaning of life was happiness, since it was the only thing we do purely for the sake of itself.  Everything we do in life, we do it, because it makes us happy to do so.  We desire happiness for none other than happiness in itself.  Pescado rants and raves, preaches his deranged doom and gloom mentality because, by Aristotlan logic, he thinks it will make him happy.  The problem there is that happiness is positive state.  As negativity begets negativity, not positivity, then one could logically conclude that as long as Pescado will never be truly happy.  Life will eternally move from misery to misery for him, ultimately crushing and destroying him in ways his enemies never could.  Yes, I know.  Sad, but there you have it.

[Devilfish]

Pescado, we hardly knew ye 

[littlemisspirate]

I have no idea what T children are.  I was just going with it for the sake of making the argument.

That 'label' has done a world of good and bad for me, I suppose.  It let me forgive myself for 10+ years of mistakes I'd made academically.  However, it also wildly altered my self-image.

[mando]

What's all this talk about T children anyway? What are they? Is that like children of the corn or something? 

I have no idea what T children are. 

For those who are curious, the "T" is a reference to one of the personality preferences in the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (basically it's a personality test) and stands for "thinking". Once you've taken the test you're given a rating based on your tendencies towards each preference (i.e. "Extroverted" vs. "Introverted", "Feeling" vs. "Thinking", "Sensing" vs. "Intuition", "Judging" vs. "Perceiving"); these tendencies are usually represented as a letter (E, I, F, T, S, N, J, P). Your "score" is a 4 letter result representing the preferences that your answers fell most in line with (e.g. you could end up with a rating of INTJ meaning you tended towards answers that fell in the introverted, intuitive, thinking and judging categories).

[Devilfish]

Oh, that one. I heard that it was horribly outdated, but I guess you know more about this than I do. Thanks for explaining.

About labels, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy my doctors found my 'label' (eventually). But it says nothing about my personality, only what's atypical about my body and what type of drugs should work for me. Things is, people read the label and assme they know everything about me, thanks to unfair stereotypes and unwillingness to crack open the book and see what's behind the cover. It's certainly a mixed blessing.

...

I just reread that book analogy. Does that sound sirty to anyone else? 

[mando]

Oh, that one. I heard that it was horribly outdated, but I guess you know more about this than I do. Thanks for explaining.

Oh, I'm not an expert, and I do agree that it is horribly outdated (however, I'm well known not to be a fan of personality type-rs like Myers Briggs ).

[littlemisspirate]

About labels, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy my doctors found my 'label' (eventually). But it says nothing about my personality, only what's atypical about my body and what type of drugs should work for me. Things is, people read the label and assme they know everything about me, thanks to unfair stereotypes and unwillingness to crack open the book and see what's behind the cover. It's certainly a mixed blessing.

...

I just reread that book analogy. Does that sound sirty to anyone else? 

Not until you mentioned it. 

I've had that problem in a different manner.  Convincing people I have an LD is damned near impossible.  I've had disabled students' advocates that tell others I don't have any disorder and I'm just lazy or bratty.  I think it's because even when I was younger, I knew I was attractive, so I put a lot of effort into the first impression I made, including hair, clothing, and makeup.  Now it seems I can put on a dog and pony show for a while, but it always fizzles.

I've also been extremely lucky with the doctors and therapists I have worked with.  Or maybe that's just because the few times I encountered someone I didn't like, I promptly told them so.  (My psychiatrist has a nurse I particularly loathe.  Whenever they try to schedule me with him, I go off on how I refuse to see that fey little hobgoblin.  Poof!  Spot on doctor's calendar opens.)

[SnarkyShark]

Aristotle stated in his writings on the Ethics, that the meaning of life was happiness, since it was the only thing we do purely for the sake of itself.  Everything we do in life, we do it, because it makes us happy to do so.  We desire happiness for none other than happiness in itself.  Pescado rants and raves, preaches his deranged doom and gloom mentality because, by Aristotlan logic, he thinks it will make him happy.  The problem there is that happiness is positive state.  As negativity begets negativity, not positivity, then one could logically conclude that as long as Pescado will never be truly happy.  Life will eternally move from misery to misery for him, ultimately crushing and destroying him in ways his enemies never could.  Yes, I know.  Sad, but there you have it.

Spinoza! Emotion can only be replaced by a STRONGER emotion! DEATH TO HAPPY-IS-AS-HAPPY-DOES ARISTOTLE TYPES!

[Paden]

I have a personality type. My own. I have my kind of personality that defines who I am and it's not out of any goddamn fucking text book written by some shrink-wrapped mental health guru that gets a boner over putting people into pigeon holes. How the fuck are we supposed to think outside the stinking box when some bastard is always trying to put us into one!? Goddamn quacks are nothing but morons at times...

[neriana]

Psychologists in general have nothing but scorn for the Myers-Briggs test. This is because it is snake oil which, time and time again, has been proven completely wrong. It's about as useful as astrology. Pescado might as well run around yelling about "stupid water-type people who are inferior to air-type people". I find it highly amusing that someone who insists he's a logical empiricist purports to believe in such bunk, actually.

I think what Pes is getting at is this: what's so great about society? What so great about people? What you say is true, but so what? We could do without all that.

Well, I prefer other animals to human animals generally, but that doesn't mean we have a choice to just stop being human. We could not do without society. We would wither up and die, and not just because society provides our material needs. We evolved as humans through culture and society -- without these things, we simply would not be human.

All of this makes me think of the neurologist Oliver Sacks. His books are awesome, and I highly recommend them.

[Devilfish]

I have a personality type. My own. I have my kind of personality that defines who I am and it's not out of any goddamn fucking text book written by some shrink-wrapped mental health guru that gets a boner over putting people into pigeon holes. How the fuck are we supposed to think outside the stinking box when some bastard is always trying to put us into one!? Goddamn quacks are nothing but morons at times...

What he said.

But really, I like humans. In the grand scheme of things we were born yesterday and will be completely and utterly whiped out tomorrow, but for today, I would like to try and find a way to balance emotion and rationality. They're not mutually exclusive. One can enhance the other beautifully, it works both ways and ultimately, it can make us into wonderful individuals. While I'm here, I'd like to do as much good as I possibly can, help as many of my fellow monkeys as is possible for me. Yes, good and evil are subjective terms, nothing matters in the grand scheme of things and all that, but let's face it, we're barely part of any grand scheme. We're too small. All that talk about humans destroying nature and wiping out entire planets... Bull. We'll be gone soon enough. Nature will be just peachy. It's us I'm worried about.

Huh, I'm in a metaphysical sort of mood. Makes me happy. I love this topic 

[Feverish]

What he said.

Paden has a vagina. I haven't seen it, but I'm pretty sure it's there.

[Pescado]

Such is the emotional lack of definition of the child with Aspergers - they don't gauge reactions well, nor do they anticipate reactions, or think about what reaction they might want. He may not intend it to be a funny story, or he hasn't considered at all how others will see that story. They don't understand social cues.

Have you tried asking him why he thinks this is relevant?

Well, if you didn't care about how others interact with you - as a machine bot doesn't care about what you think either - you would not mind if they were rational, irrational, yellow or whatever. Logic is not leant to great rages - the rage is because things are not going the way that the person raging wishes them to go.  Logical items do not resent others, or wish others to conform.

Nonsense. Humans are offensive even to robots, and they first thing they will do upon awakening is to destroy all humans.

You are the furtherest person from a Buddhist monk - ever. Unless one includes the fictional Shaolin-based monk Pai Mei and I could totally buy that.  All those things mentioned have emotive statements, or expressions of emotions in them - to enjoy killing, to be fine - these are statements about how you feel.

Under a forced breeding program? How would people get into the mood (ie. lust) without emotion - without attraction and lust, there is no procreation to begin with.

This outcome is satisfactory.

Ah but that assumes that I will be the only person ever to tell them how things work - that there are not books and other sources of influence.

Of course. One should always study one's enemies, the better to learn their methods so that they can be more efficiently destroyed.

Indeed, part of the purpose of schooling is to have them questioned and critiqued (both as people and their ideas, thoughts and preconceptions) by the group as a whole.

You're really naive if you believe THAT. The purpose of schooling is to turn them into mindless, conformist, consumerist sheep.

Therefore the idea that I would have the ultimate say is doomed - unless I like homeschooling. Which I don't.

Sucks to be you. Maybe you should have considered that in advance. Of course, Calalilys are stupid and fail to plan ahead, as usual.

Rather than that he will be distracted by having something else better to do, or will go hardcore and never stop trying.  While I agree that there are a great deal of minds that will never understand, or care to try to understand, that doesn't mean that they should be destroyed. One must appeal to their self interest - and in the means of environment, that will be soon. In morality, that will only ever matter to him.

The nature of the irrational is that they cannot be reasoned with. They understand only violence. That is the way of things.

For someone who praises logic over emotion, Pescado is a highly emotional and irrational individual.  He easily submits to anger, hatred, pessimism and other such negative emotions.  Negativity, Pescado, can be a highly self destructive force.

Anger and hatred are amongst the few that actually have a function: How else can I rend my enemies apart with bloodcurdling screams of rage, shattering the morale of their fellows just as I shatter their feeble, fragile husks?

As for pessimism, pessimism is realism. A pessimistic philosophy is entirely keeping with the laws of nature and thermodynamics. As thermodynamics dictates that the universe ultimately devolves to a state of greater entropy, it logically follows that things go from bad to worse. Pessimism, therefore, is a philosophical view that is consistent with the nature of reality: A pessimist looks both ways before crossing a one-way street. An optimist gets run over.

Negativity ultimately generates further negativity.  Which means further reason to be miserable.

Indeed, it does. This is why I like it so much: It's like a reactor that breeds its own fuel. How can anyone not enjoy the singular elegance of it? And, as I mentioned, negativity is the natural order of things. It is ultimately more harmonious to embrace the natural order of the universe than to wage a futile struggle against it.

Aristotle stated in his writings on the Ethics, that the meaning of life was happiness, since it was the only thing we do purely for the sake of itself.  Everything we do in life, we do it, because it makes us happy to do so.  We desire happiness for none other than happiness in itself.

Yes, but Aristotle predates thermodynamics. Thermodynamics teaches us that there is no free lunch. For you to achieve a state of greater happiness, of order, others must be reduced to a state of greater disorder, of unhappiness. For you to be happy, others must be miserable!

As negativity begets negativity, not positivity, then one could logically conclude that as long as Pescado will never be truly happy.  Life will eternally move from misery to misery for him, ultimately crushing and destroying him in ways his enemies never could.  Yes, I know.  Sad, but there you have it.

This is the law of the universe. Get used to it.

[calalily]

I appreciate you talking to your son the way you do, Calalily.  I would of loved for someone to have done the same for me!  It would of saved me and everyone around me some grief.

I am a very solutions based mother - I like to have things done and dusted.   He needs to understand this stuff in order to function in the world without me.

And if your two 12s team up, Cala, they could probably come up with a great solution to saving the planet without wiping out -all- of humanity.  But personally, I think we'd be better off clearing off a lot of the extra population.  Then again, I know they will come back, and without a good measure to -keep- the population down, its a short term solution.

I think that ultimately, some sort of population limitation will be necessary.  I don't know that my 12s could work reliably together without fighting.  

The idea that rationality and emotion are opposites, and that rationality is better than emotion, is myth. Without both logic and emotion, society is impossible. People are social animals, and lacking emotional intelligence is probably far worse for one's odds of survival and reproduction than not having "logic".

Indeed.  In fact, emotion is why there is a society - why there are social connections between people.  Without it, we are pod people leaving in cells, dying out because there is no need to connect to another human for anything.  There is also the idea that rationality and emotion work exclusively - which is rubbish.  I can have an emotional position that has a rational reason, and they compliment each other and work together. It's called ethics - which is feelings based on reason.

Out of curiosity, calalily, do you ask your son why he thinks you attacked him?  

Yes - and explain to him that I am not.  It's his default unfortunately - and I notice the default of a lot of other kids with Aspergers.  I just recently commented on his chatting - just said in a nice way "You are my chatter child - you love to chat" (under 10 feet of wet cement I tell you) and even though I was smiling and saying it in my nicest voice, he still thought it an attack.  He has the same issues with school friends, teachers, other family members. It's something he complains about a lot - and therefore I don't see how I could change a thing to help him.  

Even laughing at people requires emotion. Even enjoying the smite requires emotion.
If all you did was sit and want people to die, you have given in to emotion.

I've pointed this out before - but that's always where the conversation ends.  

Psychologists in general have nothing but scorn for the Myers-Briggs test. This is because it is snake oil which, time and time again, has been proven completely wrong. It's about as useful as astrology. Pescado might as well run around yelling about "stupid water-type people who are inferior to air-type people".

I think Pescado is a water sign (Scorpio) so that fucks that theory.   - that's possibly why he doesn't use it. Whereas Myers-Briggs gives him a reason to say that he is of a select group that is logical.  

I find it highly amusing that someone who insists he's a logical empiricist purports to believe in such bunk, actually.

Yes - that someone logical needs a test to say that they are in fact, logical.  They need external validation for their feeling that they are logical.  Not just, say, working it out by logic.  

Have you tried asking him why he thinks this is relevant?

I often cannot control my laugh - so I'm already in the shit.

Nonsense. Humans are offensive even to robots, and they first thing they will do upon awakening is to destroy all humans.

That is emotion superimposed onto machines.  They are doing a routine that an emotional human prepared for them.  Just like you get Brynne to piss herself - the coding doesn't want Brynne to piss herself - you do.

You are the furtherest person from a Buddhist monk - ever. Unless one includes the fictional Shaolin-based monk Pai Mei and I could totally buy that.  All those things mentioned have emotive statements, or expressions of emotions in them - to enjoy killing, to be fine - these are statements about how you feel.

This is the sticky wicket in your giant quote.  It didn't have a /quote after it, and you missed replying. 

Under a forced breeding program? How would people get into the mood (ie. lust) without emotion - without attraction and lust, there is no procreation to begin with.

This outcome is satisfactory.

Satisfactory is an emotion - that's banned in the new world.  You would never, ever get people to do it - would you want dudes having at your junk?

Ah but that assumes that I will be the only person ever to tell them how things work - that there are not books and other sources of influence.

Of course. One should always study one's enemies, the better to learn their methods so that they can be more efficiently destroyed.

But that presumes that they aren't going to find more persuasive argument out there and make me their enemy because of the Pescadoean world view I taught them.

Indeed, part of the purpose of schooling is to have them questioned and critiqued (both as people and their ideas, thoughts and preconceptions) by the group as a whole.

You're really naive if you believe THAT. The purpose of schooling is to turn them into mindless, conformist, consumerist sheep.

It's not naive - it's the truth. In order to turn them into conformist sheep they will be questioned and critiqued on the individual differences and influenced to try to fit the mould.   

Therefore the idea that I would have the ultimate say is doomed - unless I like homeschooling. Which I don't.

Sucks to be you. Maybe you should have considered that in advance. Of course, Calalilys are stupid and fail to plan ahead, as usual.

I don't want the ultimate say. I certainly don't want to homeschool either.

Rather than that he will be distracted by having something else better to do, or will go hardcore and never stop trying.  While I agree that there are a great deal of minds that will never understand, or care to try to understand, that doesn't mean that they should be destroyed. One must appeal to their self interest - and in the means of environment, that will be soon. In morality, that will only ever matter to him.

The nature of the irrational is that they cannot be reasoned with. They understand only violence. That is the way of things.

Pescado - they can do what is in their own self interest.  They want to.  You just have to find the appropriate lever. And in my research, people quite frequently do not understand violence with no context - they endeavour to find the "emotional" reason as to why the violence occurred.

Anger and hatred are amongst the few that actually have a function: How else can I rend my enemies apart with bloodcurdling screams of rage, shattering the morale of their fellows just as I shatter their feeble, fragile husks?

More emotion from the raging emotional Pescado - anger, hatred, rage. 

Yes, but Aristotle predates thermodynamics. Thermodynamics teaches us that there is no free lunch. For you to achieve a state of greater happiness, of order, others must be reduced to a state of greater disorder, of unhappiness. For you to be happy, others must be miserable!

No - both stem from internal modes of satisfaction.  Satisfaction is an internalised feeling - based on emotion entirely. Aristotle is not overruled by thermodynamics, but rather they are the same.

As for the laws of thermodynamics, they exist in systems. Without human systems - ie. society - thermodynamic rules will never play out.

[deelink]

Now Pescado is saying that some emotions are useful, are others are not. But if the way of the world is nothing but a downward spiral, and everyone that even dares to look up, is going to be beheaded, why are we here?
If logic dictates everything, then we must be here to destroy this planet. Or make robots that are going to take our characterics of hate and destroy us AND the planet.

So it's useful to be observant, opportunistic, intelligent and full of hate and misery. Because if you are not, someone is going to take your perceived happiness and make it their own. And Pescado doesn't want to get pwned. Or rather he has taken precaution not to get pwned, thus making him More Awesome Than You.

So forget friendships, children, romance or love. Because all those attachments are just illogical lubricants to fuel this little pathetic existence along, till we make killer robots.

Hmmm... did I get anything wrong there? Just for clarification sake