Numenor's Opinion of pay vs free

[watergirl]

Came across this and didn't see this posted in here on Numenor's take on all of this at his site. So anyone interested in reading it here is the link.

PAY SITES, FREE SITES, PIRATES AND HONEST SIMMERS
The Good and the Bad of our simming world

http://www.numenor-moddings.com/

You can also vote and from the look of the voting doesn't look like many pirates have been voting.

 

[RedLove]

Dun Dun DUNNNNNNNN. Search! http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?t=1042&start=75

[Hecubus]

Although to be fair, if you didn't do a lengthy search, you wouldn't know we'd been discussing the issue. I couldn't have told you which thread it was on, and I posted on it.

By the way, I want to go on record as saying Gwendolyne, Surelyfunke, and I  - with Pescado's blessing - were the ones who set the no tolerance policy back in March. I would also like to go on record as saying that I am the person who uploaded the item in question, after verifying that it was indeed only available after money changed hands.  And finally, I would like to go on record as saying that if any of us - Pescado included - took the item out of the booty before it was released as a free item, I'd raise holy hell.

[watergirl]

Sorry about that, but I did search and there is so much in here to read that I didn't see this. I know you hate repeating but this is the first I have seen of it. Wondering why more pirates haven't voted

So far on the subject of "Pirates: wise saviours or blind killer?" the Pirates are losing big time.

Still an interesting read even though not always agreeing and I like his take on TSR  

Just wanted to add that I agree with the no tolerance policy. I think you have to make a strong statement on this for people to understand that any pay items is wrong for the community. Just educating people on the evils of pay sites without the booty would never work IMO.

[RedLove]

Most pirates didn't think it worth their time because Numenor was forcing them to choose. Their views weren't there so they decided screw that poll.

I admit it would be hard to find. I pointed you in the right direction even if I didn't do it in the right way. : :wink:


*Edited for typos*

[watergirl]

Thanks RedLove for letting me know about it. I usually do most of my reading in here not logged on and have missed much in the other Arr threads. Will be taking the time to read in there now.

 

[HawkGirl]

I'm confused? I thought Numenor's thingy, don't even know what it is, is in the booty because someone was posting it on a paysite. Or does he have a donation item? I mean if it's because a paysite was hosting it, does it really need to be in the booty? It seems to really be upseting him, so much so that he's making polls that make no sense. He's given so much to the community. There wouldn't be any booty to snag without his CEP for the most part. Would there? I was going to vote in his poll, but I'm not. He set it up to be a loose/loose poll. My views are not represented in his poll, not even slightly.

Plus, we know because we have two responses from the US copyright office saying the exact same thing. Written in laymans terms, even a 7 year old can understand. There is no way, no how. Anyone making CC would be given any copyright protection, or a copyright on their work. Unless...they have a signed contract from EA giving them permission to do so. I seriously doubt EA is going to turn over copyright to any of us, or give us a right to own copyright with them. Even if they wake up tomorrow and say we welcome paysites with open arms, that's really pushing it.

[calalily]

So far on the subject of "Pirates: wise saviours or blind killer?" the Pirates are losing big time.

Of course we're losing - the options are pretty slanted - as I said in the other thread:

Option 1: Pirates are great and the rest of you can suck it up bitches. Gimme MOAR content you sluts.

OR

Option 2: Pirates hurt sweet Numenor, despite the stuff he's given us, and the help he provides for free and the sun tanning bed he gave us all. He is a sweet and lovely man, and pirates make him leave the community.

Rather than trying to choose this, I didn't vote. Let all the paysite supporters vote, rig the polls, and he'll get the message he wanted.

And HawkGirl - he has a donation item.

[Paden]

Well, I for one do not wish to see him leave, but if he does he had best do it on his own bus ticket, not mine. Thing is, other sites have one bloody donation file and we go for them.
Yes, he does a lot for the people who play the game, and I hate to see that donation file on his site. Hell, if I could give him money right bloody now just to take that fucker off the site, I would! I don't have that file, nor do I want it.
I just wish I had the ability to help each free creator out there who needs it to keep their site up and going. It's bullshit that we get attacked as the bad guys and treated like we have leprosy or something equally loathsome.
Thanks, guys, you're really making my life a hell of a lot fucking easier, and why you're at it, why don't you just hit me upside the goddamn head with a sledge hammer while you're at it, then maybe I can forget, ok?
I know that he is usually a kind and considerate person. I know that he has endless patience to help those that need it. I know that he has talents that God for some reason chose to deny my having.
I know all of this and I respect him immensely but Goddamn it, a payfile is a payfile and that is the cause that brought us all together! To free the fucking community from having to pay for custom content! To honor the EULA! To take down the bastards who sell shit and then throw it in our faces that we can't do a fucking thing about their shit fucking our games over and they're keeping our money no matter what they do.
So, gee, Mr. and Mrs. Average Sim Player, we play pirates so you can avoid the wallet vampires and we wind up being called trash. Thank you so very fucking much.
I know that some of you may be hurt and disagree with my words or how I expressed myself and for that, I do apoligize. But I will not apologize for wanting to free the community as a whole and when your goal is something like that, you have to stick to it.
Yes, I hate the fact that we host that motherfucking tanning bed, and I hate that he is hurt by the idea, but doesn't he think that we are hurt by him making a payfile? When he knows that payfiles are wrong? Here, you give me money and I will give you this file. That is what it seems like.
Would it not be better to just wait? Like, oh, this person donated to help me keep going, so I am going to send them this neat little gift because I appreciate them taking the time and caring enough to help me stay afloat, it was very thoughtful. Which one sounds like it comes from the heart?
I wish that people other than members here would actually read what I have for a sig and figure out just where in the hell we fucking are in this community! Here, let me type it out in bold, ok?

Oh, better far to live and die
Under the brave black flag I fly,
Than play a sanctimonious part,
With a pirate head and a pirate heart.

I believe these words. I'd rather be thought of as a thieving polecat than to be proven as one. I think that goes for most of us. So, excuse me while I polish my gold hoop, pull up my thigh boots and make sure my sword is sharp, I have plunderin to be doin against paysites, savvy?

[liegenschonheit]

While there are certain points I do agree with in his rambling essay, I was left with a feeling of disgust more than anything. The polls were so hopelessly skewed that there was no way of expressing any sort of opinion other than stark black or white.

I think it is a pity that free creators can't really send out a gift in return for a genuine donation anymore. I'm not talking about a sale, just a little something to say thank you for shelling out some cash, even if it is a file share friendly item. Technically, money has exchanged hands and it's not really kosher. However, I can't blame pirates for that, just the people who have bastardized the words 'donation' and 'gift' to such a horrid degree.

I also agree that sites like TSR and Peggy are far better targets than sites that have a few reasonably priced pay items. For example, I myself used to regularly buy files from Sussi, not because I couldn't get them elsewhere, but because I wanted to support her. However, that does not mean that those sites are not still pay sites, and we'd much rather see them be entirely free.

'Destroy' is the most misconstrued term in the anti-pirate rhetoric I've been reading, because most of the people here do not in fact wish to outright destroy most sites , just destroy the pay section. As much as that is accomplished through use of the booty, we also try to offer alternatives. Whats wrong with that?

And lastly, how many free creators have honestly packed their bags over what we stand for? Many of the people who are pirates are also free creators, and time and time again I've seen people here try to uphold reasonable creator's rights. Unfortunately, the fight for creator's rights has caused Numenor to forget that at the other end, there are also consumer's rights. Not to go off on a tangent, but even if it is a creator's right to sell his or her work, then isn't it also the consumer's right to have a guarantee of quality? I don't think I'd have such a distaste for paysites if most of the objects purchased from them weren't shoddy, hastily slapped together, and very flawed, with no recompense for the consumer when they realize they've been conned.

So I will close out this somewhat incoherent discourse by saying that I was much more sympathetic to Numenor's distress before I read his rant. If the value of the object in question is inherently tied to it's rareness, then it doesn't say much for the quality of the item in the first place. Since I know Numenor's work, I'd say that sounds like rubbish to me. Also, are the people to whom the item was given the type of people who are only happy with their toys if no one else has them? That's rather petty too. Maybe I have a kindergarten mentality, but I'd much rather share the finer things than hoard them all for myself.

And finally, a suggestion for getting the item removed from the booty, should Numenor actually read any of this crap; reserve the item as a special file, but leave out the 'this is what you get when you donate' bit. Instead, if people donate, then send it to them as a surprise thank you. It accomplishes the same thing, but without the carrot which makes it technically a pay file.

[Saraswati]

Guys

I have a suggestion.. what is a donation item essentially for? He must need a certain amount of money to keep his site going.. So can someone suggest to him that he runs a donation drive, and if he reaches the amount he normally gets in people buying the tanning bed, he changes that item to a free item. I for one think that a ton of people would happily and voluntarily donate to that man, just because all he's done for us..

Look at lil' ol me..being a peacemaker again.

Angha..

edit.. and I had to finish with this one..

[watergirl]

I do enjoy reading your responses because every time someone tries to defend their opinion on pay sites/donation you come back and make sense where they don't.

What I don't get from Numenor is that he makes it sound like pay sites are bad but donation sites are not. I just see a pay file as a pay file no matter how they try to sell it, like Paden said also. The thing is Numenor has done a lot for this community and has shared so much with all of us. If he came out and said the only way that he can stay online is with a donation drive I am sure people would help. He doesn't even need just one pay file. The idea he will send you the file even if you donate just a penny is lame than you might as well have it for free.

Sorry about the poll, maybe I should of drank a little more rum before reading it.  :oops:

Off to go read the thread this was in originally, which I should have done before posting.  

[silver]

His poll presents other problems, too, and I'm not even sure if Numenor's aware of it.

There is an extremely easy way to vote multiple times on his poll. I found it by accident when I had to do something on my computer totally unrelated to the Sims. I do not consider myself a computer whiz. I didn't have to hack into anything whatsoever ... didn't have to do anything even vaguely illegal. I was surprised when I saw that the options for me to vote were available, so I was curious and tried again, expecting to get the message, "You already voted on this poll". That's what one usually gets when one tries to vote more than once. But the vote seems to have registered!

I tried on another question ... perhaps this was just a glitch with the one question? Nope. It wasn't.

I did the same actions I did previously to see if the poll would clear. It did.

I don't believe that it would be a good idea to say exactly what I did. I'm not sure if encouraging people to "vote early and often" is wise. And I'm not multi-voting again. I didn't like doing it in the first place. But I do admit to being shocked.

So not only are there loaded questions in the poll, but the results may be loaded as well. Worst yet, if I, who might be considered a pirate, found it, a paysite supporter could find it just as easily and multi-vote to his heart's content, thus driving certain results up.

Worst yet, if some malevolent prat totally unrelated to this site decides to pull an under-12 move and REALLY wreak havoc with the current results, who is going to be blamed for it? Hint: Not the under-12 prat.

[Paleoanth]

And finally, a suggestion for getting the item removed from the booty, should Numenor actually read any of this crap; reserve the item as a special file, but leave out the 'this is what you get when you donate' bit. Instead, if people donate, then send it to them as a surprise thank you. It accomplishes the same thing, but without the carrot which makes it technically a pay file.

I don't think that would work.  I thought of that too, and I think what would happen is someone would donate it to the booty anyway after saying "look what I got for sending Numenor money! He has a hidden payfile!"  Then there would be a completely different ruckus.  

The idea he will send you the file even if you donate just a penny is lame than you might as well have it for free.

 

This to me is why I don't consider it necessarily a "payfile".   You can send whatever amount you want to send.  It is not a set amount, he is not selling it for 2.95, in fact he says if you are there to buy the item, don't give him money.  I look at it like a thank you card for a present.  You give him a donation (present), he gives you a thank you card (the file).  Other sites with "donations" have a set donation amount.  Or at least a minimum.  That to me is still pay no matter what they want to call it.  Numenor knows full well that if you donate anything less than a dollar, Paypal gets the money and he gets nothing.  However, he still links you to the file.  That is one reason why I consider it an exception.  It has nothing (or at least very little) to do with it being the great and powerful Numenor.  Although he is great.  

I know my view is not the popular one around here on this issue and other than armywife, no one will agree with me.  That is OK.  I generally agree with 95% of everything else, this is just one time where I don't.  

I don't drink rum or eat cookies.  You can kick my ass for that.

[calalily]

I wasn't going to offer rum OR cookies - because you're not reading.

I don't think that would work.  I thought of that too, and I think what would happen is someone would donate it to the booty anyway after saying "look what I got for sending Numenor money! He has a hidden payfile!"  Then there would be a completely different ruckus.  

Pescado *specifically* said that if he stopped offering it as a on the page donation incentive, and just sent it to people it would cease to qualify for the booty - it's one of the options available, and I think everyone here on either side of the argument would certainly hold it against Pescado if he reneged on that deal.

Nobody here is interested in hidden payfiles, or hidden files, or hidden anything (barring conspiracies). We're not the sharing police - or the taxation office - we just want glaring "content for payment" stuff not done.

I look at it like a thank you card for a present.

So you wouldn't think someone was a bit mercenary if they showed you a picture of a shiny thank you card with a toy in it and said thank me and you get this?  I would look at them like they were a complete and utter weirdo.