For NeptuneSuzy

[MIKEY]

But you're wondering why we're so against paysites now? That's why. There's only one bad pirate here, and that's BlackPearl. Yet there's a whole list of paysites that are ruining the community. I don't necessarily think you're one of them. I'd suggest you visit Hecubus's Money Better Spent website. And Sims File Vault.


I think it was wrong to be mean to you tonight. I also have a bacterial jaw infection so I can open my mouth wider than an inch. So I'm crabby. Sorry.

LOL.  No problem.  Go grab some meds and get some rest.  Rum might help too.  And I can relate. Both our kids are sick, and me and my wife have now come down with head/chest colds and strep throat...Bah!!!

[Jaida]

Thank you Mikey. But you should at least consider going free. And maybe apologize to Delphy for your attitude on S2C :\

[MIKEY]

Thank you Mikey. But you should at least consider going free. And maybe apologize to Delphy for your attitude on S2C :\

Oh, we've been considering going 'free'.  It just has to meet the terms we require.  LOL.  And be acceptable to our peeps as well.

As for apologizing to Delphy, it's probably not a good idea if I talk to him...yet. LOL

MIKEY!!!

[mando]

Actually, SA, I also remember EA recanting on of their statements. I believe it's on S2C. It was in a correspondence between HP and one of the EA staff. Let me go see if I can find it.

Thank you, pineapplebrain

Well, I wouldn't exactly call it a recant per se, but it is definitely wishy-washy. Which is why I agree with one of your earlier statements, MIKEY, that EA won't make any definite decisions or statements until they've decided for themselves which side (if any) will cost them the least and make them the most. Frankly, I have a feeling that they love the status quo and really couldn't care less. At least I think you made a statement like that. Sadly, everything I look at has been disappearing into foggy mists 10 minutes after I read it, lately. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I promise I won't whine if I am).

This is why I think that people here and elsewhere have to make a stand for what they think is acceptable and necessary (and I'm not making any moral judgements here as that is a really slippery slope, as we've all seen in this discussion and others on the board). I don't like the idea of paysites and wonder why they are so accepted by people who download Sims CC, and most (but not all, I will admit) of the time I think their existence is solely connected to greed.

Crap, I totally just made a moral judgement...sigh.

*relinquishes soap box and glugs a rum*  Hmm...Might end up getting used to the stuff yet...

Everyone starts to love it in time, MIKEY. :lol:

[Yaardarm Monkey]

SimPe and the tools required for meshing and recoloring are not EA Tools and therefore not governed by the EULA in any way.

You also can make skins, walls and clothing without ever touching those programs as well.

Seriously Mikey, you should at least do some basic research first.  If you actually read the EULA, the very first part explains what that "tools created by EA" you underlined refers to:  the GAME

Electronic Arts Inc, and its subsidiaries, affiliates and licensors (collectively, "EA") grants you a non- transferable non-exclusive license to download and/or install and use one copy of the software tool ("Tool") and/or materials ("Materials") (collectively the "Tools & Materials") solely for your personal noncommercial use in connection with EA's products, in accordance with the terms below.

EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials.

You may not alter any of EA's trademarks or logos, or alter or remove any of EA's trademark or copyright notices included in or with the Tools & Materials or EA's products. Your right to use Tools & Materials is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Tools & Materials.

Without limiting the preceding sentence, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, create works from, or sell the Tool, or use the Tools & Materials to further any commercial or unlawful purpose.


Simply put, this is what everyone agrees to by installing the game:
1) You may install one copy "for your personal noncommercial use "
2) "EA owns all of the rights, title and interest" to ALL that derives from it
3) You may not "further any commercial purpose" by the game


I honestly do not understand how those 3 basic points at the beginning of the EULA can be misunderstood.

[MIKEY]

SimPe and the tools required for meshing and recoloring are not EA Tools and therefore not governed by the EULA in any way.

You also can make skins, walls and clothing without ever touching those programs as well.

Seriously Mikey, you should at least do some basic research first.  If you actually read the EULA, the very first part explains what that "tools created by EA" you underlined refers to:  the GAME

Electronic Arts Inc, and its subsidiaries, affiliates and licensors (collectively, "EA") grants you a non- transferable non-exclusive license to download and/or install and use one copy of the software tool ("Tool") and/or materials ("Materials") (collectively the "Tools & Materials") solely for your personal noncommercial use in connection with EA's products, in accordance with the terms below.

EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials.

You may not alter any of EA's trademarks or logos, or alter or remove any of EA's trademark or copyright notices included in or with the Tools & Materials or EA's products. Your right to use Tools & Materials is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Tools & Materials.

Without limiting the preceding sentence, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, create works from, or sell the Tool, or use the Tools & Materials to further any commercial or unlawful purpose.


Simply put, this is what everyone agrees to by installing the game:
1) You may install one copy "for your personal noncommercial use "
2) "EA owns all of the rights, title and interest" to ALL that derives from it
3) You may not "further any commercial purpose" by the game


I honestly do not understand how those 3 basic points at the beginning of the EULA can be misunderstood.

4)you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, distribute

LOL.  This game can be played by all.  

Read it again, it does not specify the 'game' at all...Sorry, but implications are not statement of fact, and are self defined by each who reads it.  There is more than one way to interpret that EULA, and it is exactly the problem.

But that is neither here nor there...and I'll say why again...I'm not here to argue that line...I disagree with your methodology and practices. But I'll still respect y'all in the morning... :wink:

[MIKEY]

Read it again, it does not specify the 'game' at all...Sorry, but implications are not statement of fact, and are self defined by each who reads it. There is more than one way to interpret that EULA, and it is exactly the problem.

 Mikey!!!,
 You also are interpreting the EULA to align with your personal views.
 
 The EULA uses the terms "Tools and Material". The key is the term "Material", it includes all components of the "Game Engine". One of the major components of this "Game Engine" is the .package File. The package is not, as it's often misunderstood to be, a "File Format". It is in fact a very large portion of the actual game structure. This means that .package files may not be sold with out the express written consent of the game creator, which is EA. This also means that anything which is added to a .package file becomes the property of EA.  

 From a legal standpoint, this is in fact quite clear. Now befor you descide to argue with this statement, let me inform you that I am a retired Judge. I will not argue with you over points of Law. Laws are not written to be interpreted by lay-persons. So therefore, any opinion which you may have concerning the way you interpret a Law is irrelevent.

It is not irrelevant, as retired judge or not, unless you live in a dictatorship, which I do not, the lay-persons have a voice.  And that voice has been known to argue, debate, or even appeal laws due to their not being defined well enough so as to not hinder, misdirect, or belay interpretation.  In other words, implication is not a tool, or part in structure, of contractual agreements or the law.  Now that being said, I do know, from experience, that implication is indeed a tool of lawyers, barristers, solicitors, and judges.  

Regardless of your past standing, career or otherwise, you are not above reproach, and I am entitled to question you whether you say so or not.  As well to be noted, judges also have been known to make mistakes...as noted by your spelling errors...LOL

Now grab some of that Rum you folks have been pushing on me and loosen up, old feller.


EDIT:  You, also, are interpreting the EULA to align with your personal views on this issue...  

Geez. Where's Ben Matlock when ya need him?

[calalily]

Calalily, we used to do that and our site was far less efficient for our members than it is now.  Thanks for the suggestions, but we have been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt.  LOL.

Your files were fileshare friendly at some stage?

However, some independently polled legal reps (lawyers and such) will tell you that as there is nothing to 'sign', or because most stores will not take back an opened game, that you are coerced into accepting the 'agreement'. Now prove to me who is right...

Actually that's wrong.  If you look in the back of your EA booklet that comes with every ep - there is a 7 day warranty on the game.  Like armywife, my Seasons wouldn't install, and I was able to return it the next day, and swap it - no questions asked.

However, I assure you that it was MTS2 folks that told me that EA has recanted there previous statements, which has nurtured their frustration at this time.

I have a far better memory than you - the statements made about simpe to Hysterical Paroxysm's letter will be clarified, but at no time has Nouk's confirmation that filesharing is fine been withdrawn.

*relinquishes soap box and glugs a rum* Hmm...Might end up getting used to the stuff yet...

No rum for paysite owners - sorry. That's a pirate and freesite owner privilege.

As well to be noted, judges also have been known to make mistakes...as noted by your spelling errors...LOL

Bad form to point out spelling mistakes - this is not Microsoft Word - and you are not our teacher or parent.

Seeing as Jarhead is a retired judge, and you have the lawyer you pulled out of your arse, I'd be far more inclined to not call Jarhead's statements into question.  I interpreted it the same way - criminologist with some basic legislation classes, and contract classes.

[Apsalar]

Sorry to go off topic here but I am just amazed: we have an actual retired judge here!  :shock:  And there's teachers, lots of teachers, and people are related to teachers - my goodness, I just realized I am related to a teacher!  :lol: What else do I not know about my fellow pirates?  :oops:

[SparklePlenty]

I am a former U.S. Naval officer, former corporate trainer (Human Resources Development ;-) ) and former Professional Bridal Consultant (TM). Now I am a grant coordinator at a university, getting ready to start substitute teaching in September. I can hardly wait to go home and sit on my ass while hubby brings home the bacon.

What about you?

[Apsalar]

Right, I shouldn't forget about the military people.  :wink:

Me? Oh, I'm just a short female-hacker with author aspirations. Nothing fancy.

[Yaardarm Monkey]

Mikey, that is basic 'legalese' to say 'dont mess with the stuff'.  
Its pretty standard.

But notice, EA put in a further line:
"Without limiting the preceding sentence..."
(then the part again about no commercial profiting)


EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials.

this means that paysites do not own, nor can they claim ownership of anything that comes from, anything to do with the files.  Selling files is a violation of the above rights since paysite owners hold no legal right/title/interest to anything that is in package form.


There has been explanations regarding tacit approval already mentioned, reading a bit more will illuminate further.

Additionally, there is  de facto approval and  de jure approval;
do not confuse the two, which I sense is going on in your arguments.

[MIKEY]

Your files were fileshare friendly at some stage?

Yup.  Right up until the community screamed that having an "I agree that I am 18..." disclaimer wasn't good enough to try to keep minors out of our adult content...

Actually that's wrong.  If you look in the back of your EA booklet that comes with every ep - there is a 7 day warranty on the game.  Like armywife, my Seasons wouldn't install, and I was able to return it the next day, and swap it - no questions asked.

'Warranty'; Will accept return in the eventuality that there is something wrong with the product.  And I have actually tried to return software to both WalMart, Future Shop, and The Source, and were told that once the package was opened, they were not liable to accept returns; "Well you could have copied it already", was the usual reasoning...

I have a far better memory than you - the statements made about simpe to Hysterical Paroxysm's letter will be clarified, but at no time has Nouk's confirmation that filesharing is fine been withdrawn.

Actually, then your memory is flawed, because I recall seeing an actual screenshot of an email, or PM between someone and EA stating that they should not compound the issue by uploading/sharing others creations on the Exchange...I'll see if I kept it...

No rum for paysite owners - sorry. That's a pirate and freesite owner privilege.

Sorry. Your too late.  Rum has already been availed upon my person by your esteemed colleagues...

Bad form to point out spelling mistakes - this is not Microsoft Word - and you are not our teacher or parent.
Seeing as Jarhead is a retired judge, and you have the lawyer you pulled out of your arse, I'd be far more inclined to not call Jarhead's statements into question.  I interpreted it the same way - criminologist with some basic legislation classes, and contract classes.

Still does not take away from my argument.  "the lay-person" has all the same rights, if not more, to question as they see fit, if they do not agree, or see fault with a legal interpretation or law.  I was in no way insulting his spelling ability, so my apologies if that was the context it was taken in.  I was merely pointing out that we are all flawed, or have erred, thus he cannot say 'I am a retired judge so do not question me'.

  As for the "Lawyer I pulled out of my arse"; (and I say this as nicely as possible) Don't question my sources and opinions if you won't let me question yours. You are not the end-all-be-all of information.  You are not always right.  If you are truly as 'enlightened' as you believe yourself to be, allow for the possibility, at least, that you can be wrong about something.  In other words, don't be so freaking close-minded.  Or the fact that you say you are willing to debate the issue is a farce, and your motives are other than that.

[Yaardarm Monkey]

 
You are not always right.  

If you are truly as 'enlightened' as you believe yourself to be, allow for the possibility, at least, that you can be wrong about something.  

In other words, don't be so freaking close-minded.  

Or the fact that you say you are willing to debate the issue is a farce, and your motives are other than that.

Perhaps you may realise that you are not always right; especially about having a paysite.

Perhaps you will allow for the possibility that you are wrong.

Perhaps you are the one that shouldnt be so "freaking close-minded".

Perhaps you will realise that you are really not interested in a "debate", with the implied understanding that the opposition may be correct.

Perhaps the one with "motives other than that" lies not with people here, but within yourself.


People have stated on numerous occasions the reasons why they think paysites must be destroyed, starting with the EULA.  You have given contrary opinions.   Frankly, I see nothing more to say: you hold a contrary position after looking at the same evidence, and reading the reasons why...what more needs to be said?

As to a 'debate', each may give his/her position based on factual reasoning, but at the end of the day that's all that's left.  I really dont see anyone here slapping their foreheads and exclaiming 'gee, Mikey was right and I was wrong, paysites are good'.....at the same time, I dont see you admitting paysites break the EULA, are harmful to the community, and are more concerned with greed than goodness.

Actually, then your memory is flawed, because I recall seeing an actual screenshot of an email, or PM between someone and EA stating that they should not compound the issue by uploading/sharing others creations on the Exchange...I'll see if I kept it...

And the personal opinion of a simmaster or even a maxoid simply cannot void an ongoing point of the EULA: "EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials."  The moment EA says that what Mikey made belongs to Mikey, then that is the moment they surrender the rights to their own creations, and that isnt gunna happen.

[Ry]

Very well said, Yaardarm Monkey.

Mikey, I think you're too stubborn...lol.

Instead of going on the defensive, I want you to answer me some questions, once again...lol.

1. Considering one maxoid says EA has/will retract...balh blah blah...and EA itself still has not changed their EULA, why do you still think that that one person is worth believing over the EULA?

2. If EA comes out and says, look people! We've answered all these questions you've been asking us in the EULA and NO you cannot make profit off of the items you make for our game *which it clearly states in the EULA anayway*...what would you do? What would your stance be then?

3. Do you really believe that simply because the law is murky in this area, according to some, that that small grey area makes it okay? I feel that taking advantage of that grey area shows an utter disrespect for both EA and the community. How do you feel about that?

There are more Q's I have, but the baby isn't napping yet, so I'll be back again at you later. Beware.  :twisted:
 :lol:

*is so scary, right?*

And hey, maybe if you answer my questions I'll bring more boobehs.

ha.