PMBD

We bring you the shocking news of the latest TSR atrocity!
(http://beta.moreawesomethanyou.com/terror/tsr.png)
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so have at it.

Delphy, WesH, and Petes tools may initially be harder to learn to use - but hmm let me see 3 or four months learning to create patterns, hair and objects for TS3 (when objects become possible) as compared to the few weeks it took some people to learn the TS3 workshop  vs my computer being hit by a BFBVFS AGAIN thanks to TSR- they can take their tool and use it for toilet paper  or place it in a non-sunny rear end bodily cavity containing a brown smelly substance - since that is what it is good for

A thousand words? More like a few simple facts.

What more can you really expect from T$R? Save lies, of course.

I agree Dstar.  I would much rather take the time to learn the harder program than trust something from a site that has proven its deceitful nature time and time again.  The picture says it all.

What triggered this alert?  Did it happen when the T$R tool just opened?  When using it to create something?  When uploading?  I ask because others have scanned T$R's crapware with antivirus and malware scanners and found nothing, but they said they did not attempt to upload.  Also, if I recall, they were using programs other than Trend Micro Internet Security Pro.  Is it worthwhile to have several scanners?  Can multiple scanners conflict with each other?

edit: Coconut did warn us of this.  While I'm quite ready to believe the worst of T$R, I would like to know for sure if it's at all possible that this is a false alert?  Could the crapware be doing something harmless in a stupid, suspicion arousing way?

Quote from ShanOw @ MATY where this was also posted:

I really don't see how something that RUNS AT STARTUP, and then PHONES HOME can POSSIBLY be interpreted as anything other than malicious spyware. All this gives them the ability to constantly monitor your activities and arbitrarily install things onto your computer at will. This functionality cannot be described as anything other than a trojan.

Then should it be reported to McAffee, Norton, Kaspersky-something-or-other?  I'm playing devil's advocate because I want to know what to say to people who will ask "how do you know it's malicious"?  I'm not tech savvy enough to prove that because they have the capability to spy they are actually spying.  Yes, I know, why else would they put in the capability.  I would want to see the contents of whatever info they are sending to the mother ship.  What's in there?  My download / upload log?  My IP?  What DLL's are they infecting my machine with? (1) What do those DLLs do?  Nothing good, I assume, but it's something I would like to know for certain.

(1) edit: That is, if I had their crapware on my machine, which I never have and don't intend do.  I can't do proper software quarantine.

This info needs to be posted on T$R, their members should ask questions about this (and then run screaming, never to return).

This is because traditional AV's work based on definitions. They need to have manually discovered a threat and then send out the latest definition files to there product which tells the program exactly what that particular virii should look like.

The only way this could be detected as something malicious is throught the use of 'Heuristics' or 'behaviour analysis.' Programs that use heuristics instead of definitions (Such as Threatfire (http://www.threatfire.com/)) look at what the program is doing and determining if it is infected based on its behaviour, as opposed to checking to see if the file matches a huge list of pre-known virus's.

Most AV's include basic heuristic engines, which is why they give warnings about "Suspicious behaviour"

   

Show them the screencap and tell them "because the Anti-virus says so.  Explain that no one has ever had that message pop up using Delphy's or anyone else's tool and unless TSR can explain why their program needs to phone home just to allow me use if then alternative programs are automatically a better and safer choice.

Ok ive noticed right off that the file listed in those screenshots is TSRWorkshop.exe. When i installed the TS3 Workshop it does not add itself to windows startup & there is no file in the programs install folder called TSRWorkshop.exe.

Heres what is in the programs install folder...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Witchboy/tsrts3ws.jpg)

The exe to start TS3 Workshop is Sims3Workshop.exe. As i have stated in another thread here i have scanned before install & after install with my Antivirus & Malwarebytes. It came up with nothing. Looks to me Shanow has installed a totally different program & not the TS3 Workshop or atleast not the one i have installed.

FAKE Edit....

Ok i see TSR has released a beta version of this new tool today. I've scanned with both programs as before & found nothing though my firewall now is telling me that the exe is wanting to connect to the internet after i start the program. The file name is TSRWorkshop.exe. It did'nt however add itself to my startup. I'm assuming it wants to connect to show me the TSR CC Showcase of items already available on TSR? Looks to me like they have used a similar setup along the same lines as the TS3 game launcher.

WB, you have installed the old version with Just the pattern editing capabilities.
I've asked ShanOw to send me a pic of his folder via MSN. Should be up in a few mins. Also, see the above link inside the quote to see the picture of the workshop.

Wow. TSR has come up with their own little fucked up version of SecuRom. "Phone Home," my ass. Fuck Tomass. Fuck him right in the ear.

I don't really complain about pay sites (though I don't subscribe to them out of principal-I mean, paying real money for a digital armchair or pair of photoshopped sneakers is just DUMB--and I do not have the money to throw away like that). My view is if EA is letting it go than there's not much that can be done about it aside from supporting the free community (EA has a whole boatload of high-powered corporate attorneys on retainer if they REALLY wanted to enforce their EULA). If TSR wants to charge money and EA lets 'em, well, das leben. No, I don't like paysites, but I don't usually complain either--I just wave my flag for the free community.

But cyber crimes are a whole different deal and for that I WILL complain. If TSR is being EEEEEVIL and committing illegal douchebaggery by infecting computers with malware/spyware and and using the information (and unencrypted password info from their own site) for hacking into competitor websites and cyber-vandalizing (as described in the "TSR: In Ur Accounts, Deletin Ur Stuffs!" thread), then formal complaints need to happen. They are not merely being annoying, they are being criminal. So, if you feel the hot sting of injustice, then here you go:

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

It's the gov't site for reporting cybercrimes (yes, TSR is a foreign run site, but EA is not and a good part of their customer base is not). Maybe if enough people raise a ruckus...? I wholeheartedly support the free content community (I'm posting in this forum, ain't I?). But frankly, bitching about TSR's activity to each other isn't going to change anything--especially when it seems they are so clearly incriminating themselves. To bastardize a line from one of my favorite movies, "bitch in one hand and shit in the other hand--see which one fills up faster". If people are going to bitch, then go to the the most effective ears.

*stops*thinks* Bad Santa?  "shit in one hand, wish in the other -- see which one fills up faster?" 


Sorry, ADD.  Pretty much if you're stupid enough to use any "tool" from TSR you deserve to get your shit hacked.  Sorry but that's my stand point.  I'll be so excited to see the worthless crap that starts floating around on their site for TS3 now.  I always love sifting through thirty thousand pages of unshaded t-shirts that look like their glued to the Sim's body because bump mapping is a foreign term to whoever created it.  And I especially love it when said unshaded non bump mapped shit is subscriber only.  :)

God, I'm a sarcastic bitch.

(http://i25.tinypic.com/yi2w9.jpg)

Hmmmm...I dunno. It's early and I could do better....

Meanwhile, the new object tool, while still experimental, is out on Sims 3tools.  I'm not sure how hard it will be for my poor brain to puzzle out, but at least I trust it not to have virii installing with it.

I am rather curious to know if they did base their tool on EA's launcher. Pes I wonder if you could pull it apart? Mostly because I doubt anyone at TSR has the know how to build a tool like this on their own.

C'mon! Were mabye you expecting those guys giving something to you for FREE and whitout any concern?!?

Atleast, those intrusions are quite harmless, since they seems links to their publicities. And i think that someone will (If haven't already) manage to find a way to fix this little "bug" (Or however you want to call it). That's not at all the worst thing they've done! Even EA behaves like this putting internet publicity in the game launcher!


And smooth insertion of easy moneys in their wallets. THAT seems more a problem to my eyes, since many creators will use this utility and helps TSR's bad guys to achieve their goal: conquer the monopoly of the custom contents distribution. THAT makes me wish to read on some blog of a lawsuit, by EA, against those frackin' hunger-feed picaros, or for Batman's return. ;D

Actually I doubt anyone didn't see this coming.  ;) If you read "TSR: In Ur Accounts, Deletin Ur Stuffs!" towards the end a couple people expressed concerns over this tool. Not to mention I doubt that any free creator will use their tool, since Delphy has a tool with a tutorial on how to use it. If by some off chance that a free creator did use TSR's tool, what's the chance that they will submit it to TSR anyways? The way I see it if something was uploaded to TSR, it was intended to be uploaded there, and the difference in tools will not matter.

Another thing I'm curious about as to whether or not you can test this Pes, if something is created in their tool, can TSR access it somehow? I know they have an upload directly to them button, but what if even if you don't hit that button, that file is sent to TSR? Would they still post it? And an even bigger question, would they charge for it?

It's the gift that keeps on giving.

It's not a bug it's a feature.

That's my exact thoughts, Missbonbon. When TSR originally said they had EA help with this, I rolled my eyes and thought "in your dreams". But with the looks of this and how it just emanates EA launcher look, I can't help but wonder if someone in Engineering or Web Team didn't give them a template to work with and the knowledge to pull it off. Maybe I'm imagining things but it's just too fishy.

That's your opinion, not mine.  ;D

@MissBonBon: as far as i've understood, this tool allows you to do much of the work required to create new objects whit the game (Cloning the object and associating a new mesh to the clone, rewriting text lines, etc. ) whit one only powerful (Spamful, perhaps) tool that produces an only .package ready to be delivered. That's not done by Delphy's tools (Yet). And, if i'm not dixlessic (That's still a fact that must be proven, BTW) that's beta for the complete program, rather than for that boring crap of the pattern creator.

Yes, Delphy's CTU tool doesn't allow it, but it does allow you to create packages. I'm sure if you checked over at Simlogical, Wes's forum, and Mod the sims creator forums you could find all the programs/program plugins needed to do everything that TSR's tool does. Save except for photoshop.

Point being there are tons of free alternatives that don't direct connect into your computer that do just as much if not more than what TSR's tool will do. Difference between Delphy's tool vs. TSR's tool? We don't have to question as to whether or not he will install shady files onto our computers, give us virus's, or heaven's forbid monitor anything we do. Whereas with TSR we do. The people on this site aren't the only ones who have expressed concern with TSR's tool as well.

So yes, Delphy's "boring crap of the pattern creator" may not function like the TSR tool, but that doesn't mean that there aren't free tools made by the free community that give you unlimited and free choice of where to put your creations.

What the fuck is squishdll.dll?

TSR's Tool does not clone objects.  It does clothing, hair, accessories, and makeup.  Which for me is useless as I don't do bodyshop type stuff.

Avast! didn't take issue with installation, but I put an exception in my Windows firewall to block all incoming/outgoing connections with this tool, as well as disconnected my nic during install.  This is an old computer and I am shopping for a new one, so I really didn't care about any virus installing.  It is slow to load, it might be cause I am not allowing it to phone home.

Peter Jones has a program that will clone objects.  I cloned one, didn't test it in game.  Still have to figure out how to extract the mesh and fiddle with it and reimport said mesh.

dll's are like mini programs that other programs can call and use without having to have the same code in there program.  Squish is just the name they gave, no idea if it is descriptive.

Thanks a bunch.

Are these the same "publicities" that are popping up with malware/virus warnings as discussed here: http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2399.1680.html ?  This is obviously a new definition of harmless with which I was heretofore unfamiliar.  ::)

Hum..... Yeah, if there's an ad banner or something like that, everyone should be veeeeeeery careful with that shit as it must be the same usual ads as the ones on T$R. Which basically means "Duck & cover!". Unless your forbid an internet access to the tool using your firewall.

Does anyone know what the terms of this workshop program are? If it comes with an EULA of sorts (which I presume it does) and what that says.

[..]So yes, Delphy's "boring crap of the pattern creator" may not function like the TSR tool[...][/quote]
Please note that i was referring to the Workshop pattern creator that was released during early develop stage of the complete so-called utility, and if i have not Alzheimer was heavily criticized by some of our greatest modders 'cause it was working much worse than Delphy's tool. No criticism to Delphy, which tool improved much my TS3 experience.

And responding to all the post: yes, there are many utilities that, woking together, allows the creator to get same result whitout installing any TSR crap. But now answer me: how many are those utilities? Many will prefer to have a program that integrates 'em all, although it gets spam and potentially spywars to 'heir computers. Good job telling them that ThomASS is Evil and will re-program their PCs to stab 'em in the sleep if they doesn't donate all their possessions to TSR.

Yes it comes with a EULA that you have to agree with when installing.

Who cares how many of them are utilities? Yes a lot of people would love to have them all together. If you took TSR's tool and slapped Delphy's name on it, and took out all the bad crap, people would love it. BUT because of all the bad crap (i.e. connecting constantly to your computer for starters) that will deter a lot of people from using it. Even just TSR's "stamp of approval" being on it will deter people from using it.

If many people prefer a program that integrates them all, even with all the bad crap along with it, then explain to me why on practically every post of custom content out now, has a "Thanks to "insert freesite creators name" and "insert tool name here"?

Not to mention besides one outfit, maybe even two outfits, everything TSR has pulled out of it's ass has already been done and really isn't ground breaking. Yeah they edited a couple of hair meshes, so did some people waay before TSR over at MTS creator forums. They turned a swimsuit into a nightie? So what, people at GOS turned that same swimsuit into a dress waaay before TSR. Really, everything TSR's tool does can be done, and has been done at a freesite using freely developed tools.


I love how they added that.  ::) Yep, no one can profit off of this tool but TSR!

Thats what I noticed MissB, and this part:


So they are saying that even though the content belongs to EA, if you make it through the Workshop it is deemed original artwork and is therefore under copyright of TSR and the original creator at the same time?

So they are basically stabbing themselves in the foot here. Because precious TSR claims that they have control over everything and can choose to keep your content on their websites after your long gone, but what if the original creator does not want that? Will they honor those creator wishes to leave? If so, could we encourage all Ex-Fa's and Sa's to bitch at TSR to get their content removed?

So if they keep it in testing and beta forever, then  no one can ever use it and sell their content.  :D

Judging by Thomass' behavior in the past, NOOOOOOOO.


I can see why some people who are unaware of TSR's other cybercrimes might be foolish enough to allow sketchware like this running on their machines, but I just can't believe that the majority of content creators would want anything to do with either it or them.

Ok wait, just so I understand. They can take an EA mesh, lower and/or rotate some vertices and because in passed through the bowels of their little tool it now belongs to them. They're claiming proprietary rights on someone else's mesh because they lowered the hem.

Thomas you're really gonna go with that? Really?

I think so, because historically, EA hasn't given a flying duck about their own EULA. :(

Well, people do it when creating fonts all the time--it's one of the things we learned in my graphic design program about what constitutes fair usage. You can take a copyrighted font, shift a few vector points on each character, rename it, and then do whatever the hell you want with it. It's the vector points that determine the copyright. That's how sites like DaFont can offer free downloads of the Harry Potter font without getting harassed about legalities--because it's not the Harry Potter font Warner Brother's owns, it just looks very similar without the vector points visible. I'm guessing it's the same with vertices. That might not make it right, but it does make it legal.

My favorite part about that EULA is the part about not charging for content. They are telling other sites not to charge for content made with the tool because the tool is still in testing and the CC may not work. That is actually a smart idea, if you care about your customers. So we see that TSR isn't listening to what they are telling other sites, and charging for CC that may not work.

I assume it is the Squish DDS library. It's a library that lets you perform DXT compression and produce DDS images. Not sinister.

This is fairly typical of Thomass and his TSR Twats sense of logic- they assume no one else has logic or common sense because they don't possess it in any great quantity themselves  with the exception that Thomass may be minimally  logical  in the criminal sense (don't get caught by those that can actually lock you up for being a nasty, thieving SOB ) because it is only free creators, and members of the Free Sims Community that have caught onto his cybercrimes and his EULA violatoins not the Secret Service (I do believe they are responsible for legally enforcing copyright violations in the U.S don't quote me on that though), FBI, CIA, or Interpol.

I didn't notice this until I was reading the thread about this on MATY.

• 5. NO WARRANTIES
  IBIBI HB expressly disclaims any warranty for the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is provided 'As Is' without any express or implied warranty of any kind, including but not limited to any warranties of merchantability, noninfringement, or fitness of a particular purpose. IBIBI HB does not warrant or assume responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. IBIBI HB makes no warranties respecting any harm that may be caused by the transmission of a computer virus, worm, time bomb, logic bomb, or other such computer program. IBIBI HB further expressly disclaims any warranty or representation to Authorized Users or to any third party.

Is it just me, or does it sound like the tool isn't that safe or secure?

There is also this part.

• 6. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY
  In no event shall IBIBI HB be liable for any damages (including, without limitation, lost profits, business interruption, or lost information) rising out of 'Authorized Users' use of or inability to use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, even if IBIBI HB has been advised of the possibility of such damages. In no event will IBIBI HB be liable for loss of data or for indirect, special, incidental, consequential (including lost profit), or other damages based in contract, tort or otherwise. IBIBI HB shall have no liability with respect to the content of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or any part thereof, including but not limited to errors or omissions contained therein, libel, infringements of rights of publicity, privacy, trademark rights, business interruption, personal injury, loss of privacy, moral rights or the disclosure of confidential information.

This EULA is just sounding better and better, isn't it.

Fine. Shouldn't make The Whoreshop illegal? I dare to say that in Italian jurisdiction it would: intrusions in one's privacy can cost yeeeears of prision.

About point 5 of the EULA, that's no un-common therm. Also EA, Ubisoft and Bethesda Softworks (Or mabye only the first two, for sure many others) sell their softwares "as they are", so if they doesn't work right or are like a shit of a Pandora vase for your pc unleashing an informatic assault due of sabotage/lack of ability of their programmers they don't have to refund some million of angry customers. Atleast ThomaSS whas quite clear on that point; that would be nice, if it doesn't mean that THERE's a spyware that will fuck your arse, and will fuck it hard, and report 'em to law will not make anything if not an expensive lawsuit that you'll never won 'cause you accetted the EULA.

rum nate, all EULAs typically have that in. A company that would admit blame for a fault their program may have caused? Unlikely in most circumstances.

Honestly?  I'd rather have several smaller programs for what I use them for, than something like SimPE, which while nice, had a bunch of stuff I never used taking up room.  I don't see a need for half the programs out there -for me- so I don't install them.  For the things I do, I get the programs.  I don't mind switching alot.  Heck, for patterns, I switch from photoshop to gimp, because somethings photoshop does better, some things gimp does better.  So I switch back and forth.  Is it a bit more work?  Maybe on one hand, but its a lot less on the other hand.

And I've never said I'd use the tsr program - I'd play a vanilla game rather than trust their stuff.

I supposed that the "No Warranties" point is common to many programs EULA. But since i don't buy (And neither pirate, in case you're wondering) so many programs for PC, i don't read many EULAs from many different developers.

But...What's about point 6? I'm sure that there's no developers saying that he will do your fuckin' own business whit is own software. And i've ever known that infringing the rigth of privacy of a person/company was a crime (And yes, i mean one of those act that in most States means lawsuits, prisions and all those things that ThomaSS deserves for sure). Else, what do you think spywares are illegal for?

This is what gets me. Apparently they are under the impression that the buck does in fact stop with them just because they say it does regardless of where that buck originally came from. I'm gonna start using that with some of my friend's stuff. "Ya I stole it from your house but I painted different it so it's mine"! Gawd, that's like someone on Canal St. getting all indignant and trying to sue you for knocking off one of their knock off's.

If this is Thomass's idea of "doing it right" this time he really is one twisted fuck.

The only thing he's doing right is himself, in the bathroom, with a pron mag. Can we play Clue and use that fucktard as Mr. Body and some of the other paysite asswipes as characters? Sorry, I'm bored today.

I'm pretty sure he can't do this either.

I'm way behind in my piratey duties because I forgot to charge my laptop.
Soon as it's charged, it's off to send some PMs and repost stuff at PeggyZone.
Until then...


It was Peggy, in the copy machine room, with the blunt instrument!  She hit poor mr. Body in the head so hard that she made a huge gap in it!

edit: Her motive was that he caught her copying stuff from TurboSquid and Poser.

Is a pron mag anything like a prawn mag.  If so ....ewwwww!  Doing it with oversize shrimp is really sick....

No that would mean doing it while looking at pictorial layouts of over sized shrimp.

This is Thomass, guys, anything is possible.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Witchboy/Kittehs/prawn.jpg)

That ... is ... ADORABLE!!

That is - and the parents are imaginative, obviously - I mean, boring parents do not put their babies in shrimp suits - in fact, I'd say the parents were punny.

Some day that child will wreck a horrible revenge on all mankind....


Either that or develop a severe shellfish allergy. 

Is anyone aware at the moment as to what method TSR is using to get their programme to phone home?  Is it the same as the launcher?

I can tell you exactly what it does since i'm the one who did that part :)
It sends five http requests to TSR, four requests for loading the images displayed on the welcome screen (what people have done with TSR Workshop) and the last one is to load an XML document with some news and version info that is also displayed on the welcome screen.
If you have some knowledge on TCP/IP you can easily verify this with a network traffic monitor such as WinDump or similar.
I also know that at least one person in the TS3 modding community has investigated this and found nothing else.

You are more than welcome not to use the tool though!

No problem on that, asshole, people around here don't like shit that installs what can be considered mal-ware on their personal property. That was part of the SecuROM shit, too, then again you being the ignorant fuck about conventions that you refuse to respect, you more than likely do not get that. We don't WANT our machines sending/receiving information that we have no use or desire for, dickhead. You have no right to put what is basically spyware onto machinery that you didn't pay for. Gee, people PAY your ass for the privilege of being bugged, who would have thought it? Of all the inconsiderate assholes on the internet, you rank right up there with the bastards that write a computer virus that takes all of your information or downloads something that wipes your hard drive. Go insert a floppy where the damn sun doesn't shine, bright boy and download onto THAT.

Edited due to a damn typo...

Applauds Paden and hands her some rum

I wanted to comment, but Paden pretty much took the words out of my mouth.

I'll just add then, that Johan, DEAER, I'd trust a virus/malware/spyware warning comming from the cheapest, crappiest anti-vi/mal/spy program in the entire galaxy about your tool more, than I would trust a single word comming from your deceiving, debauched, payshit, TSR mouth. Trend Micro isn't a crappy program. I think that you should get the message now. You're smart enough, DEAER... Hmmm, or are you?

That's fine - I still would rather just get my tools that do what I need, rather than have a bunch of stuff I don't need.  That and I don't want to use something from TSR.

But to be fair, if all its doing is pulling update info, well, simpe does that too, iirc.

Johan, I'll be civil, since you're being civil.  

We have been told that before the TSR tool was released, Steve sent it to FAs and was quite interested in how their virus detecters reacted to the tool.  When he got reports that the tool set off virus detectors, he said pirates had put in a virus.  Do you have light to shed on this?  

On an unrelated note, I meant to ask you about the angry, insulting post someone made using your account, but it seems to have been deleted.  Was that you, or did Thomas hide behind your account?  The tone did not match your other posts at all.


Why would we want to use it?  The free community has great tools, many developed before the TSR tool was released.  Even if TSR could offer the community something new and innovative and provably completely safe, many would refuse to use it simply to boycott TSR.  

* We have not forgotten Shakeshaft's theft.  Shakeshaft has not been punished, is still an FA, and their page is given as a shiny example of what FA minisites look like.  
* We have not forgotten the compromised user accounts at TSR, and the unencrypted passwords.  Are they encrypted now?
* We have not forgotten (because we're reminded daily) that TSR claims to be PG-13, but allows upload of Britney Spears stroking her crotch with a whip or a woman wearing only a tiny apron.  Are the ads for Evony and adult sex sites still showing on TSR?  Is Thomas still saying he can't be held responsible for ads he allows on the site?  Have you seen the More Smutty Than You (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,1871.0.html) thread?
* We have not forgotten being accused of just wanting free stuff and pirating EA software.  Have you read our reasons for pirating (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,1104.msg44636.html#msg44636) in the FAQ?  Seen the photos of our legally purchased software (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2403.0.html)?  

Such past actions, and the lack of positive change in those areas, make us very distrustful of TSR and not interested in helping TSR promote its software.


edit: bulleted for clarity
edit: added links, in the faint, faint hope Johan will actually look at them


edit:
WB  Do we know what the TSR tool sends when someone uploads?  Do we know if it "watermarks"?  Does it put any personal info in uploaded files / send any personal info?  While what you and Delphy have said about net use on startup does sound harmless enough, it is not like SimPE getting update info on startup.  The big difference is I trust Peter and Inge, based on past behavior.  I do not trust TSR one bit, based on past behavior.  They would have to make a lot of changes, and do so consistently for some time, before I would trust anything of theirs, even if Delphy vouches for it.

I'm not sure what it sends when uploading to TSR directly from the tool, as i have not done so. It does ask you to sign into your TSR account thru the tool to upload your items directly. Delphy or Jfade might know a bit more about that, but they haven't posted anything else on the subject as of yet at MATY.

Very nicely put Paden and Cat. Both of you I think could sum up on how everyone feels about this issue. I too am curious as to what is actually sent with the files.  It was openly admitted that TSR's "watermark" they use will record user's IP address, and other tiny bits of information to try and detect who downloads what.

Bloody missed that one, that will teach me to sleep, all hail Paden. 

Totally agree with you, Cat. Trusting anything that their spokeshole has to say, knowing everything that we know about TSR's past behavior, is simply unwise.

johan I have a question for you (if you come back).

The EULA forbids anyone from selling content made with the program because it is still in testing stage and not everything may work. I personally think this is smart. But I do find it odd that while no other site is allowed to sell content made with the tool for the above reason, why is TSR selling content made with the tool? If a subscriber pays for something, and it ended up not working, because the tool is still in testing stage, what is going to happen with the subscriber? Are they just going to have to deal with it not working, and have to wait until it can be fixed, and by that time they may not be a subscriber anymore. If people start having problems with content they paid for, its really going to turn people off to the site.

 Or is TSR trying to make it so they are one of the only paysites out there right now?

Don't be fooled by which tool was used, even if you made an item using a tool your own ass magically pooped, if your CC need any sims game then it belongs to EA, point. I'm tired of that discussion as everyone if forgetting this simple fact: ALL CC belongs to EA and to no one else, no exception whatever. It's been the case since since 1 and it's been years that paysites try to turn around the EULA in all possible ways and now their using the tool argument. Fuck. I'm now pissed off.
I repeat in case someone missed the point:
All CC is copyright of EA and no one has the right to sell it except EA!

This means little, and is exacty what you would be expected to say: After all, you know these tools as well as we do, so you'd know not to do anything that would obviously be detected. This is why you steg-encrypt the messages you're phoning home with into the requests, so that they look like harmless requests to any packet sniffer. After all, you said it yourself: You know these tools exist and that people know how to use them. If you expect your story to be more believable, it needs to be less obvious. Restating the obvious proves only that you have something unobvious that you are hiding!

Not quite, though: SimPE pulls ONLY the information you tell it to pull, WHEN you tell it to do so. This can be verified by examining SimPE's code. SimPE does NOT request extraneous information as cover for a steganographically concealled transmission to the mothership, and does NOT install strange DLLs into the system to maintain this linkup. SimPE also does not have a known history of consistently abusing personal information.

So the TSR tool is hiding data in something where you would not expect it to be hidden? Like a hidden message or data file within another file?

I wrote my reply at 4.00am this morning when I woke briefly.  It wasn't until I read it now that I find it pretty odd that johan jumped on that question,  after everything that has been said in this thread, then totally failed to answer it in any way.

Well, notice I said -if-.  I know I never told it to tell me there were updates, but as was said before, there is no reason to distrust SimPE, while there is -no- reason to trust this TSR tool.  Hell, lots of reasons to actively distrust it.  I don't trust it, and I don't trust them.

This was originally a much longer reply but i've realised it just going to be a big waste of my time. Keep on believeing if that's what you want to do, i really don't care if you use the program or not.

How does one say the phrase, "chicken shit bastard" in Swedish? Johan, you can't fool people with your lies and garbage much longer, and you've never been able to fool anyone here. Too much experience in dealing with you and that treacherous piece of filth that you're related to, so take it and stuff it.

Oh but, I'll wager you do. I'll also bet that you're VERY eager to, at the very least, plant doubt among the members of this forum as to whether or not you can be trusted.

So, if any phorum member wants to use the TSR tool, go ahead.  Just remember that there is the very real possibility that you WILL end up having your personal information shared on a super-sekrit forum while DOT, evi and princesspadre point and laugh at your gullibility. Far-fetched? Hardly, that is EXACTLY what they did with the personal information of people (some of whom they only suspected of being file-sharers) in the past.

Does the tool's tool still work with no internet connection?

I was wondering that myself, not that I plan to DL it.
Nothing in the world would make me DL anything from TSR...and they do care, otherwise they wouldn't try so very hard to make us believe that the tool is harmless.

It does appear to.  I installed it and deprived it of Internet from before it's conception.

I like the way you phrase things.  :P
Thanks for the info.

Probably won't help. I'd imagine there's a secondary system built into it, since this is far too obvious of a step. It's quite possible that if you ever release anything, it will steganographically encrypt the information into your output and send it out that way, so they can intercept the output and scan it. There is one way you can test this, though: Take two different computers that have never been in contact with each other, with completely different installation methods and data (don't put the same name into both computers), isolate them off the Internet, and then feed them the same input and md5sum the output. If the md5sums are the same, there is no unique information encrypted into the data. If they are different, the data has been steganographically altered to be unique. Of course, they probably know that, so it's hidden someplace else, but finding this guarantees proof of guilt.

Yeah?  Try us.  I for one am quite curious what you had to say.  Whether, for example, you were going to tell us if TSR encrypts their users' passwords now.  You want people to try TSR's tool, you'll first need them to not distrust TSR.  Or just keep doing what you've always done, and we'll keep not trusting you.

*Cat wagers on the latter.*

I too would like to know what you have to say, especially since I did ask a question directed at you on the previous page.

Please don't hold your breath rum nate.  Just to clarify, for johan, I wasn't expectecting an answer from a TSR goffer.  I was after an honest reply.  I have never downloaded anything from TSR either free or pay.  I value my pc far to much to risk it.  So am hardly likely to download anything else from there.  If I wanted a bullshit, PR pouffed answer I would have registered and asked that question on a TSR forum, but I didn't I asked it here where honest answers are the norm not the exception.  So please be keeping your half assed answers for where they belong TSR forums.

Oh I'm not holding my breath on it. I highly doubt he will answer my question because it had to do with them charging for content.

ETA: For anyone who wants to read it, Thomas made 2 posts about their tool on MTS.

Link: http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=358021&c=0&ht=&page=2&pp=25#startcomments

I'm much too lazy to think up a nice translation for that phrase exactly, but I can say something else...

Tidigare erfarenheter har visat att sannolikheten för att TSR ska vara pålitliga är ungefär lika stor som sannolikheten att min skrivbordsstol kommer att förvandlas till choklad. Jag väntar fortfarande på den där chokladen.  :-\

edit: Because maj wrajting is stjupid.

Apparently, Thomass has used the free community to garner information while giving them little to nothing in return. Boy, who would have ever expected such self-serving and selfish behavior from a guy whose spent the last few years showcasing his self-serving and selfish behavior?

So, again, Thomass' (and johan's) reassurances about the safety of the TSR tool should only serve to underscore the fact that you use it at your own peril.

That was about as fine an example of not-caring as I've every seen.  Yep, it was an excellent display.  Worthy of a sulky 13 year old.      ::)

I salute you.  With one finger.

Yanno, I respect Delphy and Inge enormously. That's not even a question. However I am a little surprised that they would honestly expect the gang from T$R to all of a sudden start sharing their toys openly and freely with the community. I appreciate their efforts and best of intentions in trying create a new dynamics with this game release however the concept of "let bygones be bygones" depends entirely on both parties actually being bygones. But honestly, thanks for trying.

Thomas has one interest in this community and it's financial. He will never do anything that he perceives as being possibly detrimental to that. He's a protectionist, that what he does. Regardless of what they say, they have proven time and time again that they are not ever to be trusted to do anything that is not in their immediate self interest. Let them have their little tool and do with it as they see fit. They've never done anything that the free community hasn't done better and never will. Unless of course they steal something again, which is highly possible.

There's no reason in this community for anyone to hide anything. Unless of course you have something that needs hiding or you're just a douche. One or the other.

(http://i28.tinypic.com/2mczhgp.jpg)

Not that I know either of them particular well, but both Delphy and Inge strike me as very nice people.  Which is why scumbags like Thomas can use them to pull the crap he pulls. 

My take is that neither Delphy nor Inge (nor Wes) were naive.  My guess is they thought "If we try, there's an infinitesmally small, but non-zero chance something good will happen, and if we don't try, there's no chance".  Take at look at this MTS thread (http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=358021), posts 28, 32, 34, they express disappointment, but not surprise.

Oh God no, I never thought for a second that they were being naive. Maybe there was no expectations at all, I'm just probably projecting a bit. However like I said, they made an honest and well intentioned effort and good for them for doing it.

Thomas doesn't have time to participate in community projects like that anyway. He's too busy tossing salad over at EA and teaching the Twat how to be a super sekkrit haxx0rtron.

I don't think any one could be surprised by this. Inge, Delphy, WesH and co. all did what they always do give to the sims community, Thomas did what Thomas does naturally takes from the sims community. Now who in the sims community does Thomas have to vouch for his product, no one. but hold on, lookie here Sblade.  I feel as though once again my retardedness is poking it's head.  The way I am thinking is:- the examples Pes gave from the anti virus didn't say "OOOh TSR  doing bad things on your computer. Disconnect now."  It is warning that the programme has the potential to do bad things so don't let it connect.  Pes is 100% correct and the potential for TSR is enormous.  If they don't send bad files with their tool now, we know how vindictive TSR  are when protecting their money.  I think to protect their assets they would send nasties down to the tool in the future.  The good thing for TSR is the users will have got used to the anti virus kciking in and just click the allow button.  Just like now when they get alerts from Firefox etc they click ignore out of habit.  It may be retarded as I have no idea if this is possible, if it is why aren't people like Sblade, who at  least added "but it does phone home" to the forum title, not warning people of the potential threat.

No, I would imagine you would rather we didn't use the tool.  You'd probably much prefer that everyone in this forum stays far away from this tool, so we have no real idea of what's going on. 

Your answer is entirely made of fail.  Clearly you do care, otherwise, why did you bother to come here in the first place?  What you really want is for us to shut up, go away, and leave you free to fleece the Sims community as you're so used to doing.

Your words may say, "don't care" but the fact that you come here and try to sow these seeds of doubt speak far louder and clearer than your words.  You do care.  You care deeply.  Not about the active members of the forum, I'm sure to you we're all just a lost cause.  But you care about the ones that come here to get the other side of the story.  You care about the watchers, the lurkers, and the most casual of members.

And you've made a rather irritating habit of coming here, having your say, then when questioned, coming back with some response that boils down to, "I'm not going to answer you, so there!"  Do yourself a favor, and just don't bother.  Because the refusing to answer questions when you've joined the discussion, makes you look like you've got something to hide. 

People who tend to be unselfish and altruistic will try and try to help others and give others a chance.  When it is something like this where it really doesn't make much of a difference for their own work, then they are even more inclined.  While it sucks to have someone benefit from your hard work, at least its not like you don't have it anymore.

I honestly think most people are going to stick with just getting the tools they need and learning how to use them.  Besides, I refuse to give TSR free advertising using their tools.

I'll just say I admire the tool creators who stuck out their necks to be better people, even if again it failed.  It didn't fail in one regard, because it again illustrates that the free community is superior.

That's because the free community does it out of love, and when you do something for love, you don't set the same restrictions. If it takes you 200 hours to make a tool or an item, it's worth it, because it's something you love to do.  When you start expecting money for something, then it becomes a choir.  Then, suddenly your time has to be figured into it.  Yes, I'm sure there are some folks at TSR even, who love what they do, as well as the money, but they are more the exceptions that prove the rule.  The FA's that do love to create and don't give a hoot about the money often end up leaving, because they don't want to hold up to demands on the amount of stuff they have to make and when they have to make it. 

One of the real eye opening things with me and TSR was the "I'm sorry your mother is really sick and you have to take care of her and your computer was stolen , but we had to drop you from being an SA, because, well, you know, it isn't really fair to TSR to have an SA who isn't producing."  I really didn't care, because at the time, my mother was really sick (still is, just slightly less so) and my priorities did NOT include making pixel items.  But later, when I thought about it, I realized that was so business it wasn't funny.  What would it have hurt to have kept me on as an SA?  None, really.  Or, what would it have cost TSR in matters of time/energy/effort to have put up an "Inactive SA" list?  In the case of me, it wouldn't have helped them at all, because there was no way I would ever go back to a site where pixels take priority over real life.  However, I do know of other SA's who left for various reasons and when dropped, never came back, because they felt they were being punished for not producing.  "Sorry, you've gone back to sucking.  But maybe, if you produce like a banshee, we'll invite you back into the speshul club!"  That's a turn-off. 

Look at the situation with Nouk.  When she left the free community, most of us cried a few tears because a friend was leaving, and wished her the best.  If she decided to return and start over again, I'm sure she'll be welcomed with open arms, enthusiasm, and gratitude.  Had she been an FA on TSR, she might be on the retired FA page, but I'm sure she'd have to start earning her way back to true FA status for awhile.  Nice way to treat someone who's having trouble, right?  But, it's a very business like way.  Business is cold.  Business is about the bottom dollar.  This is supposed to be a hobby. 

*ahem*

Small update: Thomas at MTS today
Apparently he changed his mind and is in fact in discussions with someone to possibly maybe do his part, sometime.

Now he was called out on the 'sharing', he changes his mind?

Do Thomass ever take a "true" stand? I don't trust his post, til I see it. FAIL!

If I were them, I wouldn't confirm anything until Thomass ponies up. He seems almost desperate to get Delphy and Inge to confirm what a generous guy he is before he actually shares anything.This all seems to go back to what coconut told us not long ago -


Which, of course, makes coconut's following update  -


 - more relevant than ever.

I don't know if this post is relevant. ..I don't think it adds anything you all don't already know but back before I really hated TSR- when I was extremely late to the PMBD party- I. ..*gulp* downloaded TS2 Content Manager from their site. ..this was late 2007, early 2008- maybe earlier. Right around this time my computer had a total meltdown and I lost everything. I'm not sure if the CM had anything to do with it because due to my enemy ignorance I still have it- even now, I *finally* figured out what that CCap that kept running even when I was logging off default (sorry, not very tech savvy) was all about by reading this thread. Then, I realized I don't know how to get rid of the damn thing.  :-[

Seems a trasparent try to get a monopoly over new meshed TS3 objects to me. Just like saying "hey, you can do whatever whit our program, but when it goes down to cool thing that someone would pay for, you must upload only to our site so we can transfer all their moneys to our wallets!", if you consider also what stated in the infamous EULA that we all know. I suppose that open beta of the Whoreshop will last a long, looong time.

BTW, does this program saves objects in .sims3pack files? 'cause it seems that only EA know how to make the Download Manager (Or however is called that shit) to attach not those nasty files to lot's one. T3W made patterns comes whit lots for now, and it would be dumb if their gonna-be-pay items behaves in the same way.

Because, if i were to use their disease carrying software, I'd respect their demands on the meshes.  Sorry, but since they have so little respect for the community, why should we respect them? Of course, I'm sticking with free tools from trusted sources, so this is rhetorical

I'm sure there's someone enough stupid to think that their policies must be respected. BTW, i don't remember which site released some new-meshed swimsuit that i've installed as a .sims3pack. I suppose it was made whit the Whoreshop...No one cares about what Thoma$$ says.

Since when does TSR give a massive shit about what will fuck up or break a person's game? C'mon, look at people that have downloaded lots and such that totally crash the game, for fuck's sake! Liar, liar, pants on fire, got your ass caught on the telephone wire! Thomass needs to go back to wanking and drooling, he's at least not a danger to himself or the community when he sticks to that.

I don't think TSR cares about people on their site who have problems. In the EULA for their tool they ban charging for content because stuff may not work, but at the same time they are charging for content that may not work. It could be more of trying to look good in the community's eyes, wanting to make sure people outside their site don't have problems with their "wonderful" tool. They may think it will help how everyone sees them.

If they want to look good to everyone in the community, they'd best have it arranged to have pot smoke blown into everyone's home that belongs to this fandom so that we see it with the rose coloured glasses that they so obviously want us to put on, then. It. Ain't. Gonna. Happen. DUH, Thomass...

I downloaded Cemre's little girls longer ponytail from TSR. Tried it out on a little girl who was in a active household. It showed up okay while playing the house. When I switched households, the little girl showed up on the community lot, but with the original mesh that the hair comes from, not the Cemre hair. Since Cemre used the TSR Workshop tool to make the hair, then it is a complete failure.

HP custom hair holds up on community lots, so what's the problem with your "special" tools Thomass? I was too tired to get pics, but will try to tonight.

EDIT: Wanted to add, even Peggy's and Rose's hair show up on community lots with sims in unactive households. :P

Okay.

I know I'm "late to the dance" here, but I've read this whole thread to see if anyone has had a similar experience as mine (so I don't get flamed on my very first post for not reading through the thread before de-lurking :D).

I've never tried to register at TSR, I've only visited their home page by clicking a link at a more reputable site (don't remember which).  This was about three months ago.  I was on the home page for mere seconds when I heard a sexy girl's voice coming from my speakers,and then my AV software kicked in (I use Avast, which sends up its flag in a man's voice.

The home page featured an ad along the right hand side of the page for VUMU (?  I'm not sure...it's the chat software that uses sickeningly cute Bratz doll like avatars), and I thought that's where the voice came from, and thought it was the culprit.  I ran Spybot (something I do religiously) and it reported that I had VirtuMonde gunking things up.  My last scan (only the day before) turned up nothing. I removed the problem and deleted everything that could cause it to re-appear, and Spybot gave me a clean bill of health.

A few weeks ago, I got daring again and visited the TSR page.  No VUMU ad, no female voice, but Avast kicked in again, and I got infected with VirtuMonde again.

I don't know if it helps or adds fuel to the fire, but I'm glad to see that there's an entire forum dedicated to this very thing!

Thanks!

Avast never warns me about TSR, nor do I have any infections when I scan.  Try adding in Adblock Plus.  I have three items that are auto blocked:

##[class^="skyscraper"]:not(body) - hidden
hxxp://ads.pubmatic.com/AdServer/js/showad.js - script
hxxp://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js - script

I have no idea what that first one is nor why it is considered a hidden item, but one of those three are probably where the virus is coming from.  While technically they are not from TSR, they are responsible for it since it is there site putting the ads on so indirectly they are responsible.

I have talked to TSR about the fact that they are responsible for the virus, spyware, malware, whatever you want to call it that pops up from the ads on their site but they disagree.  They informed me that it was somehow my responsibility to contact their advertisers and complain about the ads.  They stated to me that they have no control over the ads.  I reminded them that they certainly have control over whether or not they are there and if they knowingly keep up ads that are harmful or dangerous then it is indeed their fault if their customers are damaged by that.  No matter what I said they still insisted that I was complaining to the wrong people.

Y'know, I've been on sites with ads where the ad provider tossed in a couple of clunkers that had spyware/viruses/etc. Reputable sites contact the ad provider and rectify the situation. In 99% of the cases, the ad disappears within a few days or so.

Wait a minute ... we're talking about "reputable" sites.

Oh, never mind, then.

I run advertisements on my websites because they are a good way to remove some off the unnecessary money that I have to pay every year (Since I refuse donations - there are people who need money way more than I do) They also boost google pagerank for some reason.

However.

If someone complained to me that my site was showing inappropriate or malicious ads I would contact Google and have the issue resolved asap, and If they didn't I would scrap the ads completely.

I think TSR needs to think more about there users than the few pennies that the ads make every month.

Why would TSR want to get rid of harmful adverts? Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a subscriber account get rid of the adverts on TSR? Well there you go then, they can cry, subscribe, give us monies, and the viruses will go away. If you're only there to browse, not to pay (say if you were planning on getting it from the booty later) they don't want you there at all and want to kill your computer to stop you downloading their content from the booty.
As for their visitors who go there for the free stuff - screw 'em. They're freeloading off the servers anyway. MOAR MONIES!!!

Thinking like TSR hurts my head....

I know you can have the ads from your ad service tailored to what your client base is. So for instance, if you had a website about receipts and cooking, you'd want ads for grocery stores or online cooking supplies stores (something like that) and if any inappropriate ads popped you, you complain to the ad service and they remove them. But it is your responsibility as the web host to take care of it, not your users.

TSR forgets a lot of basic business common sense. But then this is Thoma$$ we are talking about, so he never makes sense.

You are right, if you pay the ads go away. Found that out when I was looking on their forum yesterday (A thread about if adverts are in the game, the game should be for free. And they say we want everything free). So you have a point, they aren't going to get any complaints from people who are paying about the ads causing problems, so they aren't going to give a fuck about the free people who are having problems.

I do remember being told that If I subscribe then I wouldn't have to worry about the ads anymore and I explained that I shouldn't have to "worry" about the ads at all. They just really don't get it.

The Sims Resource is full of crap, as always. It IS their responsibility, just like it's EA's responsibility to take care of inappropriate ads that popped up on the Sims 2 site from time to time. It's their responsibility if they want to keep their website "family friendly", as they like to say.  ::)

Yes well given that it appears that Thomass, and the other Execs at TSR do not have much education in business in general and have not take a basic Business Ethics class- or they just don't give a shit that by leaving the ads on their site they are being unethical or making poor business decisionss which is most likely the case
 Poor business decisions how you say? Lets say I go to TSR (lets assume I have never been to the site before) who claim to be a safe, PG-13 site for downloading Sims Content- before I even register I am seeing - inappropriate advertising and content that is pushing it to be rated X in some cases. Than I leave the site only to find out that all sorts of bells and whistles have been set off by my anti virus, anti spyware, anti adware programs. If I am 12 (most TSR subscribers are between 18 and 24 - but that only counts ones who haven't registered with Mummys credit card- something I am sure is ignored by Thomass and co)  I might ignore these warnings and pay for a sub anyways. However if I have any working brain cells at all I am going to leave that site and never go back ,and go to the Booty for stuff by TSR creators that I feel that I must have.

Does TSR get the Subscription fees from those 3:5 people who get a virus the minute the go the the site and never come back no they don't therefore not only is allowing advertising containing malware on their site poor business ethics but a bad business decision as well. Sooner or later having virus infected advertising is going to catch up with them and bite them in the ass.

You say they target the ads at their (paid) user base? Makes sense; if they think that most of their subscribers are pervs and pedo creepies, that is. Thing is, there are more people that those kinds of ads are likely to offend, so they put them up in the hopes of getting monies out of them so the bad nasty stuff goes away and leaves them alone, oh noes!! I wish those stupid fucks in charge over there would grow the fuck up, what they're doing pretty much amounts to extortion and strong arming folks into giving them shekels they've got no possible rights to.

I'm starting to tinker around with recolouring furniture meshes and while I'm improving, I'm still better at it than the likes of Buntah and Atwat, who think they're so great that they have to get paid. I'd rather pay my cat to hork up on a plate, take a picture and fit it to a frame and try to sell that. It still wouldn't be my work though, so I wouldn't do it. Not to mention that it would be in extremely poor taste and I like to think I'm smarter than that. No way in hell would I try to make money off of something that I don't own, I'm too damn honest for that shit.

They don't target their paid users with the ads.  If you have a subscription you don;t get the ads.  There are people dumb enough to actually get a sub simply to stop their Anti-virus from going off every time they visit the site.  I know this because when all this was happening I was posting about it in the forums as well and the sheeple were saying things like "just get a sub and then you can just skip the ads".  Like that made it better.  I have since switched to Firefox and have lots of ad-blockers and no script so I feel better but me being able to fix the problem on my end doesn't take away their culpability.

And to clarify further on the whole targeted ads thing, most ad groups I've worked with on websites let you tailor the ads towards your audience of your website.  For instance, the home decorating site I worked on for a bit would have ads for furniture stores and home improvement stores.  Or like at MTS, where the ads are mostly video games/movie ads.

Either they don't make enough off of ad revenue to care about the ads that show up (ie the money they make off of non-subscribers) or the shady ad company pays well enough that they don't care what kind of ads they are.

OK, I get it now. But still, the adult type ads kind of let you know what kind of people they think they have downloading, don't you think? I mean, if it was truly PG-13/Teen, then you wouldn't see some of the eye popping singles ads... I swear, the only taste they have over their is mostly in their mouths.

Well, their attitude seems to be that the advertisers themselves or the companies that they contract with are the ones who have complete and utter control over the ads.  They don't take responsibility for the content of the ads at all, even the smutty ones.  It seems to be the same as the virus issue. "We don't put the ads there.  Tell them to do something about it."  There are enough people around the community who have sites that use ads to know that isn't the way it works.  If an ad service is putting inappropriate ads up on your site you tell them to stop.  If there are virus alarms going off because of ads you make them fix it and you take down the ads until they do.  If you do all this and there is still a problem that keeps happening you get a new ad service or, in the case of TSR, you decide that it is bad enough that you are charging for content and you really don't need the extra revenue anyway and you take the ads down.  Well, that last part is just what should be done and not what they will do, obviously.

Pescado, a request, if you would, sir. I've been talking with folks online and there are some ideas floating around that someone like you could easily prove or disprove regarding this piece of shit tool. The tsr program comes with a dll file added, and it makes changes to the registry and makes sure the program updates, etc. but it can have a keylogger included in it, can it not? Have you torn into the .dll to see exactly what it does?

I mean, if there is a  a keylogger and if you do banking on your pc, you're so screwed. A keylogger records all of the information you put in, it can even take screen shots of where you login, and capture all your passwords. Even regularly changing passwords will not help you in cases like that. Generally is hidden in .exe files and .dll files, tiff files and all of that happy fun kind of shit, as well as it can send the info by email, or ftp, or other means.

The hacker can then view athe info, study it, sell your information to whoever they bloody well feel like it. Oh, and of course hack your photobucket and shit.So, Shanow might have lost a lot more than just his vacation pictures. And get this: a huge amount of keyloggers are undetectable for the most part, so that trial run Thommass did could have probably been a keylogger?

Of course it doesn't have to send anything until the hacker tells it to send stuff, in order to avoid detection even better. So, say if Shanow gets annoying, I see in my database what IP he uses, then I whip out my software and lookie there at that, Batman, he has it installed... so I activate the logger, and have it send over screenshots of everything he types and it doesn't even need to be running everywhere.

Sounds insidious, doesn't it? Is there any way you can find out if it exists anywhere other than supposition/imagination or is this just something you're going to sit on your ass and contemplate while your prehensile beard helps you to strangle tonight's dinner? Just wondering.

Jesus Christ. My first post after lurking for months without an account is about how absolutely terrifying having a keylogger would be. Oh the things you do to the masses, TSR.

If they do include a keylogger, couldn't that be called an invasion of privacy and grounds for lawsuit or at least some huge public scandal? I know it's technically legal but for TSR to install a hidden keylogger, especially when they have access to their subscribers' personal information and have proven that they're not the least bit hesitant to broadcast it, seems like it would spell certain death to their site. I'm sure that even the dumbest subscriber at TSR would know that having their every keystroke monitored by a stranger would be a bad idea.

It's not proven, though. I'm just asking if that would be possible and if so, can he obtain the information so that people don't get into a panic that isn't needed.

That's an interesting theory, Paden. It could also possibly explain why Thomass would have sent johan over here to try and alleviate concerns about the tool's safety. The booty is costing TSR tons of money, and yet they want to share their tool with us? Riiiight.

It's kind of telling that Johan was so proud of the work he did, too, now isn't it?

I have found a way to reproduce the input so there is...

http://www.the-prism.com/index.php?topic=3225.msg39307#new

You have to use an VMware clean machine and Trend Internet Security Pro 2009

Step by step:

1 Install WinXP SP 2 Pro. on Vmware 6.5....
2. Install NET framework 3.5
3. Install Trend Micro
4. Install TSR workshop
5. See what happens  ;D

Pes, if you want to remain credible, you have to provide ways to the Averages Joes. Relying on word and screenshots still leaves place for doubt.

Thanks to Shanow
Special thanks to Paden

As the Trend Micro says, a Library that loads at WINDOWS Startup to be loaded by some or ALL applications, if programmed badly, could affect system stability.

For now, I don´t recommend the tool, specially the version I investigated. 0.6.1.0

EDIT: Just downloaded from TSR the 0.6.3.0 same warnings

Thanks for testing it Nightmare/Sblade.

Yikes! Rather glad I don't have Sims 3. Still, I think Thoma$$ and company should be reported.

Average Joes? As in all the stupid people who aren't you? Dude you do great work but your people skills really suck.

However, thanks for the info.

Kaspersky complaints too. Global trap. Intercepting all processes....

(http://gi60.photobucket.com/groups/h19/7BKRK218RK/Kaspersky7thwarningHIGHSECURITYRISK.jpg)

YES IT IS THE SAME MESSAGE THAT TREND MICRO SAYS, IT IS JUST SAYS IT IN OTHER WORDS

ISSUE CONFIRMED. MALWARE BEHAVIOUR CONFIRMED

Oh my. I read "[...] is trying to intrude module into all processes by installing the total crap."
I was extremely busy these last days, I'm now busted and my eyes are playin' tricks on me. Eventhough they're right for that one ;D

Why would you think that Pescado would care about retaining credibility? :P If stupid people are so stupid that they're fine with having a proven malicious entity install unknown junk on their computers, I say they deserve it.

Nightmare; could you get a screenshot of just the A/V alerts in a higher resolution - I'm working on something Sekkrit and need the picts. Thanks for you input btw, I'm glad I could help. (Also, very smart of you to use a virtualization!)

I have PM ed you a secret link that contains ALL warnings in high res. Including this one. If you want an specific cut say it.  :P

BTW virtualization is a must when testing dangerous ware

Could you also send it to me? I have a formal complaint pending and I would like to attach these links to it if it's okay. Thanks

TSR has a new tool out now. TSR Merlin. It is the same thing as Delphy's install program, with the exception the TSR one also installs .sims3packs too, so you don't have to use the launcher. This is the info they posted about it:

We are very proud to announce the beta of TSR Merlin. This will soon be your best friend when it comes to Custom Content and The Sims 3.

This tool lets you quickly and easily install custom content, mods and other creations in both .sims3pack and .package formats for The Sims 3. You can just as easily uninstall the same content through Merlin's easy to use Download Management facility.

To make installation safer you have the option to view the content of a file before you install it, giving you complete control over what you install into your game.

Points of note:

    * It's very fast. Installing/uninstalling a .sims3package file takes seconds instead of up to a minute with the Sims 3 Launcher.
    * Supports both Mac and PC. Since Merlin is written in Java it supports both platforms, making sure noone is left behind. You will need the latest framework of Java available here: http://www.java.com/en/download/index.jsp.
    * Full preview of the content. You will see all contents of a package including images and every file included, making it easy to decide whether to install it into your game or not.
    * Keeping your downloads organized. With the Download Management facility you have full control over the content installed into your game.
    * On the first run the required framework for installing and using .package files is automatically completed, making sure all you need to worry about is what content to install or not.

Post beta feedback, questions and requests in our Merlin forums here: http://forums.thesimsresource.com/forumdisplay.php?f=690

Coming soon:

    * Detailed information about installed content types, such as a Sim's traits, an object's behavior, a clothing type's age groups etc.
    * An icon in Downloads Management that indicates whether a file has been installed or not.
    * The possibility to install files using the right click option on a file.

Download the tool from here and read installation instructions here. Enjoy!

Credits: Jfade for development and Echo for letting us use her libraries.

Sounds like a bunch of horse shit to this gal, and it probably is. I don't trust them as far as I could throw a Cray computer.

Would you trust them as far as you could throw a VAX though?

I would not trust them with a fox, I would not trust them with a fox, I would not trust them here or there, I would not trust them anywhere. I do not like that mental scar, I would not trust that TSR... Sorry, we've had a Dr. Seuss day here, my son is hooked on it.

Lol, I like that Paden, I'm stealing it for my sig. :)

Delphy has already made a Sims3pack Installer.  Been available since...end of May.

http://www.simlogical.com/Sims3ToolsForum/index.php?topic=53.0

Hope everyone reading this thead also read the details in the PRISM thread as well.  Thoma$$ and Johan wrote replies.  Personally, I hope the code injection warning is just due to sloppy handling of the alt key on T$R's part and not anything deliberately malicious.  Waiting to see what Sblade makes of Johan's reply, and the new version of the TSR code.  Glad someone with lots more know-how than me is doing thorough testing.

What does global trap mean?  Is that a separate issue from the dll injection, or another name for it?

It is the same as the dll injection. As for the test. TSR latest version 6.4 is Neat & Clean. I think the warnings were due to a faulty programming. Don´t be so harsh with them. The TSR tool is a BETA, and beta state means bugs can happen.

The Global trap/hook/dll injection is DISABLED when you exit the TSR tool. So nothing out of the ordinary here.

Yay!  I feel safer now!

Bugger, that was supposed to read: I would not trust them with a box, I would not trust them with a fox, I would not trust them here or there, I would not trust them anywhere, I do not like that mental scar, I do not trust that TSR... Sorry bout the mess up, but I do like the emphasis on the fox because those critters are just appealing. We've been seeing a bit of a resurgence of them in my area and I like it. I always wanted a pet fox when I was a kid until my dad explained that it's cruel to take a wild animal from their natural habitat and make them live in confinement.

There are domesticated foxes - in some states, you can have them as pets, in some they are only allowed to be in 'puppymill' conditions then electrocuted to death so as to not muss their fur.  But Fennecs have been domesticated for I believe over a century, and the fur ones are domesticated as well.  In temperament I think they are much more like cats, and like cats, they socialize better if you start when young.

I don't hold with taking a wild animal into confinement, but if an animal is domesticated then its domesticated, and not just so someone can wear a coat.

Okay, here's my issue. This tool (while I won't use it), can run on Macs. I refuse to play my game in Bootcamp of other windows emulator (for both practical reasons and out of principle). I would prefer over anything to use Delphy's tools--however, her stuff is never mac friendly. In fact, there are very few mac friendly tools available. The two installers available (by Marhis and Echo) either won't work on my system and/or are rather glitchy/finicky/awkward--so I'm pretty "feh" about what's available so far. I hate to say this, but TSR's tool (and subsequently, TSR) is going to be very popular for mac users.

To be honest, if I didn't know better (and a majority of Sim gamers fall into this category), then I'd be downloading TSR's tool in half a heartbeat. I'd be all over TSR like a 14-year-old is to Edward Cullen.

For serious, if the free community keeps back-burnering the mac community, then paysites will just keep gaining momentum and popularity because they're making attempts at being appealing to the widest audience. It's a damn cryin' shame, is what it is...  :-\

Don't be so harsh... with TSR?! Fuck that, they're an illegal con-artist site that constantly pulls shit on people for not bending over nicely for them.

PMBD has become way too "nice". Hell, in reading over the AwesomeMod threads, I'm thinking even MATY has become too "nice"; dumbasses aren't being fried with nearly the frequency and vigor that they should be. I guess people are just burned out because nothing's changed except the game, and Sims 3 isn't nearly the game Sims 2 was.

I've been thinking about some ways that we can ease up on the harshness. For starters, we can quit sharing their paypal info amongst ourselves. Then maybe we can NOT use their passwords to hack into their accounts on other forums. And here's a possibility, maybe we SHOULDN'T steal their meshes and then claim that we made them?

Oh wait, we've never done any of that. THEY HAVE. So maybe someone needs to trot their happy little ass over there and tell THEM to quit being such fucking slimy assholes.

MOTHERFUCKER...fuckedy-fuck-fuck!

I just tried to check Nouki's uploads on MTS2 and they're gone.

If she did this on purpose I do apologize...I really couldn't keep up with the thread because of it's epic hugeness!

Otherwise, I'm so glad I started getting everything from here after a while.  I can't thank the "pirates" enough for everything they'd done to ensure the community gets what should have been free in the first place.

If you find this posting in error, please lick my clit. 

You are searching for Nouki rather than by Nouk which is the name she goes by for her creations. They are all currently sitting at MTS- just search Nouk. You can also find her content at Sims2Graveyard, SailfinSims (see my signature for the url), and Sims2Cave.

The "back-burnering" is not malicious, or even intentional. The problem is that all the developers of these tools only own and work with Windows machines. Most of them (myself included) don't even own a Mac. That means that we can't test anything we build on a Mac platform. As it stands, I've put quite a lot of effort into making my tools work on all Java-friendly environments, but there are always couple of gotchas which mean that some things don't quite work the way I expect on non-PC systems (mostly the 3d preview, really - 3d graphics isn't so easy to write in a platform independent way). Most of the problems are relatively easy to fix, but to do so we need reasonably technically proficient Mac users who are able to help us essentially "remote debug" those applications. I've had three different people help me with Mac testing of stuff at various points, but after a few weeks they tend to disappear or move on.

If there are some Mac users who were confident enough to install alpha software, review simple shell scripts, and report back with specific and detailed bug reports, and those users make themselves known to the current stock of tool developers, you'd probably find that the "back-burnering" wouldn't be anywhere near as significant a problem. :)

Alternatively, there are a few libraries out there which are Mac friendly - you can always use those to create new tools fairly quickly if you have some coding skills! :D

Yanno, we are kinda harsh sometimes.

Dear Twat,

I'm sorry you're a  incontinent incompetent fuckwad. In future we'll try to notice that less often.

Best regards,

Everyone else

That doesn´t mean IT professionals will laugh at PMBD if they test the tool and see NO SPYWARE is inside the TSR tool. Only a bad programmed key checker. Going on with prejudices does no good to the cause.

You have to check the facts. They will throw false baits to see if you accuse them so you lose credibility.

This is exactly right, and we strike this in a different form on RYG/Prism a fair bit.. we get people coming our way who use Macs who aren't happy that we don't have Mac removal instructions. The problem is none of the staff own Macs, so how can we program for them or set up troubleshooting instructions? We did however communicate that need directly with someone at Sony DADC and they were apparently going to set up some instructions.

When it comes to the tool.. Thomas and Johan have actually been very happy to work with the staff over at RYG/Prism to try to nail down the things that aren't working. And it's borne some fruit, anything that people can specifically find wrong with that tool has now apparently been very quickly fixed. It's important to split up the things that TSR does from the things that we're just suspicious of.. And if the tool is now ok, it comes back purely to personal preference whether people want to use that tool or prefer to use Delphy's. *shrug*

I'm going to step in here because first of all with Sims 2, the Macs were not affected with SecuRom. Why? Because thank the Maker Aspyr took the code EA gave them and did only the game port. Because SecuRom was a third party program, they did nothing, I repeat nothing with the code. Yes, there is a Mac version available, but it is not Aspyr's job to mess with the SecuRom code. It is their job to import the code for whatever platform.

So, if you run Windows on your Intel Mac, the instructions are valid from the RYG/Prism site. I can't run Windows because I have a PowerPC Mac which doesn't have the Intel chip so I was never affected by SecuRom. If people really made noise about wanting Mac workable versions of things, I'm sure the programers could look around the Sims Community and find many Mac Users out there who would be willing to help. I know I've found them. It's all a matter of communication. I lived without SimPE, so I found other hacks that worked like InSim and TwoJeff's Blinder.

Maybe I'm stupid and this is off topic, but could someone please explain to me, why do people still choose Mac machines, while they know, that in many areas, specific programs for their platform either don't exist either their level barely gets through beta-testing, they're glitchy, awkward and whatever HeyBubbe described them as. It's not only The Sims and tools for them, but many other programs from different categories. So please, humor me, and tell me why people buy Macs, while they can have a good, old, PC running on Billy Gates' Windows, which can be a pain is the ass at times, bu on which 99,999% of stuff works. In what way are they better? Because from a person's that ain't an informatic view, it's just like willing putting a ball and a chain on your leg, that closes some horizons.

uhm, YOU were the one running around the internetz with your arms flailing -


 - but you're telling us that WE'RE the ones who are going to be laughed at? And regardless, the fact remains that TSR is an EXTREMELY shady outfit. Anyone who trusts them enough to install a program they devise may be putting their machine and their personal information at risk.

You do first learn the different between those words, then you would realize the stupidity of your comments:

Malware behaviour= Malware. Virus Behaviour=Virus.

You have noticed I said Securom has virus behaviour, but not calling them a virus? there is a difference, learn it. Anyway I would be surprised if anyone besides Pescado is able to understand this stuff. Good luck

*ahem*

Kath, Blade, I will say this once: Lay down with fucking dogs and you'll get fleas. Good luck working with those fucks, you'll bloody well need it. Remember when I said that associating with certain people can tar you with the same reputation? It works both ways, kindly keep that in mind. *firmly turns back on that discussion*

Hi Paden

For myself, I'm a happy free creator who won't charge for her stuff and who doesn't upload to TSR-this is something different and seperate.

All we've done is just worked with the facts of the tool, pure and simple. Which has allowed us the chance to work with them and ensure the tool isn't damaging in any way. Which is more in the interests of the guys who DO use the tool than yelling at them and achieves more. We're independent of any other site and impartial of any political issues, same as always. We can't magic a virus like reaction in the new version of the tool if it isn't there-we can only tell you what we've found after a lot of technical investigation. If we were pretending there's an issue with the tool itself when there's not, that's shady behaviour.

It's the same as we've been working with a couple of different DRM developer on and off for a few months now to make their programs more user friendly. When it comes to technical issues, we're primarily interested in an end result which is in the interests of the majority of people.

Kathleen

It's amazing that you keep coming on over here to call the members "stupid" and making comments about how "Pescado would be the only one to understand," yet you keep coming back? What does that say about you? Need I remind you that your are the same person who tried to argue that the booty is illegal, and you even created a sock puppet account to agree with yourself. YET we are the stupid ones.  ::) Really grow up.

Never said it was malicious or intentional. Perhaps "back-burnering" is a poor choice of words, but when you're a mac user wanting to be more involved in the cc community, it feels that way. I wouldn't expect someone with a PC to run out and get a mac just to covert their utilities any more than I'd expect a mac user (such as myself) to buy a PC for cc-making purposes. I'm more astounded that there aren't more existing mac programmers/creators jumping in with mac versions of stuff, especially considering the gain in Apple's popularity. There's a few people putting mac stuff out, yes, but I'm surprised there's not more. It's an "it is what it is" situation, but it's still a bummer.


BLLLEEEAAAGH!! Sorry, Lady Vader, it's an involuntary response to this age-old debate. LOL. And I'm sorry for getting off topic too, but I'll be brief.

The "they're glitchy, awkward" was in reference to the sims3 programs created for mac, not mac themselves. I find macs to be elegant, very user-friendly, safe, and reliable. But despite being a mac advocate, there are advantages and disadvantages to each kind of platform. I'm an artist, and my husband is a film maker. Therefore, the mac platform is better equipped for our particular artistic needs and preferences. We've done our work on PCs and found them to be laggy, hangy, and slow. And being that we use internet resources for much of my art, we can download without fear of getting any viruses (which is VERY important because I need my system to be spyware free due the confidentiality of some of my work). However, as video game players, the mac falls WAY short. I played Sims on PC and it's just a smoother better gaming experience. Macs also falls short in terms of affordability. They're freakin' expensive, man. I'm sure I could make a whole list of pro and con differences for both platforms, but I said I'd keep this short. So... yeah.... I prefer macs due to my work, but if I could afford a gaming PC, I'd get one.

Okay, sorry for the digression. But in the spirit of the topic: I'm opposed to the suspicion of TSR putting malware crap in their stuffs out of sheer principle, and in defense of other people having to deal with it. It doesn't actually effect me at all because I'm on a mac. Same with the Secu-Rom thing someone mentioned earlier. I could just say "neener neener neener" and ignore this thread. But  that's oppositional to my sense of social justice.

EDITED: I saw I double posted, so I edited the two posts together. Sorry 'bout that.

Hi HeyBubbe

What we need in order to have Mac instructions for SecuROM is to have Mac people join RYG and help us put them together-if you're prepared to help us, that'd be lovely. It seriously bothers us that we've got nothing for the folks with Macs, but if we can get a couple of you guys to get involved and help us, I'm sure the issue can be resolved.

Kath

Thing is, you helped them to make a tool which they are going to use to make PAY content, and you damn well know they are going to use it for that. That is where my problem lies. That and the fact that they are scum without a shred of ethic or moral yet feel free to use the talent of those that have those in order to line their pockets even more. You KNOW what they've done and that they deserve nothing more to be hanged for it, yet... gah. I'm not going to bother.

Paden, I don't agree with you. The tool itself is totally free and if it's safe and TSR isn't claiming any ownership over the stuffs you make with it, it just comes down to personal preference whether someone wants to use it or not. The majority of the free community will always use Delphy's tool, the TSR creators will likely use their tool. It's better that the folks who use the TSR tool have a safe tool to work with. Pescado and Inge have both said "tools are just tools" and personally I agree with them.

I get your argument, but I think I get Paden's tool.  One argument against paysites (besides the EULA) was that they were making money off of the worker free creators by using tools made by free creators.  With the Sims3, we've already seen people outraged at Rose and Peggy for making stuff using Wes's and Delphy's tools because those tools specifically say they are for free content/file share friendly.  TSR avoids that by having their own tool--which will not be file share friendly.  Which means, PMBD will look bad by including TSR creations made with their tool because we aren't respecting their TOU while making such a fuss over people violating Wes's and Delphy's TOU.  Yes, they are allowing their tool to be used for free content, but it is almost certain that it will also be used to make pay content for their own site.  They may honestly be concerned about Mac users (which is good), but they also may just be using RYG to make themselves seem more community friendly too.  There's been some evidence in the way they've treated Delphy, Inge, and the other free creators who helped them develop the tool that this is more about PR than actually being better people.  I was ready to give TSR the benefit of the doubt but I did get a virus from their site when I downloaded their tool (from an ad, not from the tool itself as far as I can tell).  That's an old issue that's happend to plenty of people before me and if they can't be bothered to do something about that, I highly doubt they can be bothered about a lot of the other stuff their accused of either.

Prism is not endorsing the tool, only ensuring that is free of any nastiness.  The methods used were very scientific and able to be reproduced.   Any claims about problems  should be able to be reproduced through testing and the scientific method accomplishes that.

There will be many who will use it, just because at this point it is easier to use then Delphy's.  Oh yeah, I know what will be posted...."they deserve to be infected if they use it"...they deserve to be hacked"...etc.  To me that is just plain mean and only lowers the person saying it to TSR's level.  Why would you wish that on those who may not know better?   I know because "TSR is thez ebilz" and anyone silly enough or gullible enough to use it is evil by association.

TSR has a shoddy reputation and personally I wouldn't download anything from there except for testing purposes, but personal feelings are shelved when testing for problems with modding tools or DRM's.  Prism is an educational place that many turn to for information and will always be neutral on issues. Prism is a not sims site and never will be.  Therefore we won't be dragged into many of the debates that have split the sims community.

To be fair to both sides Delphy's tool was tested also and came up clean all the way around.

So flame away, I need some laughs today.  Doubt you can do better then someone else.  

PRISM was FORMED by people from the Sims 2 FREE community. I remember. I was there. The other gaming communities didn't come in for some time. I'm not flaming, I'm just saying that's the way it was.

OK, again, it was YOU - Nightmare - not me - SnarkyShark - who was going to other forums (at least two that I know of) and warning members about the "MALWARE BEHAVIOUR"  of the TSR tool. Then it was YOU - Nightmare - who switched gears a day later and stated that there was nothing to worry about. Meanwhile, OUR position has stayed the same: TSR is a shitty site that has done NOTHING for the community except use it to line their pockets and has caused nothing but trouble while they're doing it.  

Which means - are you keeping up? - it will be YOU - Nightmare (aka NOTICE MEEZ!!!)  - who will loose credibility. Not us. So suck it, bite it, lick it and then PISS OFF.  


But it's not really free, Saraswati. TSR has done some very shitty things to INNOCENT people in the past and, no doubt, continues to do so. Lending an organization like that any sort of credibility is costing all of us in the long run.

And helping a site that has terrorized free sites does not a DAMN thing to make points for you in this community at ALL. Sites where eleven year old children could have seen that shit! HOW do you justify that?

Ok, here's my two cents into this debate.

I agree on a 100% with Paden on the term, that those bloody shits at TSR don't deserve help in anything, more to it, we should've thrown logs under their legs in the development-run of the tool. Modders of the free community said they didn't really bring anything in exchange, just pretty much sucked out info. I really won't bloody cry, if one day they happen to cross some experienced hacker with a short fused temper, that will change their whole shitty money-cow into a pile of dust. I may not approve the practice, but I really won't bloody cry in their case.

However, there is a "but" in this. The only reason I don't critisize the PRISM people for doing something for the development of that tool, is because that way someone was actually supervising TSR from putting loads of shit, malware, spyware, viruses and whatnot into it. Of course, the ones that stand on TSR's side, while being absolutely aware of their practices, deserve to get burned - you might call that lowering to their level, however, I would simply call it life's justice. Unfortunately, along with them, a lot of innocent people could get burned. People fresh in The Sims community, unnaware of TSR's dealings, people that just bought the game, because they saw an ad on TV and they liked it and saw a link to TSR on EA's site and went there. What did they do to deserve being infected with malicious shit? Be trusting of a major game developing company? Especially that not all companies treat a customer the way EA does? And those people really don't follow all the twists in the story, they're just gamers, playing for casual fun. That doesn't make you deserve getting burned. And for the sake of those unnaware of the situation people, I'm glad someone kept an eye on TSR while making that tool. Not nessecarily that they helped them, but that they kept an eye on them from putting malicious shit in it.

And now that the tool is made, they can slip in whatever the fuck they want, at least until the watchdog bites them in the ass again? I still call bullshit. I realize that it's a case of keeping the enemy close to hand, but it's also rewarding shit actions. People got their security compromised and those motherfuckers get patted on the head and their tool fixed for use. Where is the justice for those already hurt?

Paden we will very happily work with TSR if there are any future concerns that come up with the tool, don't worry.. Snarky, I respect you guys and I always will-RYG is just here to help gamers regardless of the side of the pay/free debate they're on..

 For the rest, I've pretty much said what I need to say, and I'll bow out at this point and leave you guys to discuss this further. ;)

That pretty much sums it up, Paden. Believing that TSR will NOT take advantage of a situation where they can potentially access personal information (and we all know how fond they are of other people's personal information) is just way too much of a stretch.

That's just it. At least for Sims 2, we've never been affected. You'd have to go to other gaming communities to find out if their Mac ports also contained SecuRom. I'm not much of a programming guru and I run on an older Mac, so I'm afraid I'd not be much help for what you are looking for. But thank you very kindly for the offer.  :)

If they put something on ANY of their tools, I will personally blacklist as them for the use of Malware, do a RYG article, and ban them. Most professionals can be in the opinion that was a programming error, and the new tool is neat & clean.

PAden, about that we helped them to improve the tool. I doubt Thomas is happy with the thread I made/locked/reopened/locked because it got negative propaganda. And some professionals can be in the opinion that that programming error was intentional, because it is just too stupid. Can´t say, I´m not a programmer.... YET muhaha.

To the other posters, I love you too.  :P
To the other

Pardon my ignorance, but I've seen RYG used a few times while following this thread but I have no idea what it is. Google search was a bust. Would someone kindly enlighten, plzthx. ???

Did I say, that now we know that at least this version is clean, we're suppose to rest on a pillow called "victory"? In no way, precisely, because of the argument you put, that now since they have the public benefit of the doubt about that dumb tool - from some in the community, but surely not from us - we need to keep an eye on those bastards double. Observe and try to prevent, the Big Pirate Brother is watching. Never forget, never forgive - that's one of the mottos of this forum. I'd add a second part to it, making it: Never forget, never forgive and observe, so they can't even take a crap without us knowing about it. After all, good recon is 50% of the success of a mission.


Nowhere I'm afraid, unless they have some evidence about the hacking and make a complaint to the authorities - then there exists a chance for some recompensation. There really is no other bloody way. Unless they just want revenge and have the knowledge and abilities to excecute it, but those type of people usually have their machines well enough protected, to not be hurt by any shit ThomA$$ and co. are capable of slapping together in their cellar. The crappines of life in full glory. There pretty much is no justice unless you go get it yourself.

PS: Paden, you think I'm not calling bullshit? I'd say it's even the 3rd diarrhea of a bull in one day. All of this is one, stinky, bloody crap-cake. It's good to know however, that for now, FOR NOW, a few souls are safe. On the other hand however, maybe if half the communities machines got shitted because of crap put into that tool, then maybe TSR's ass would finally get fried. However, how much I hate those motherfuckers and with sadistic pleasure would watch them going down, it would be a damn pity, if so many more people - innocent people - would have to pay for it. The victim's list is far too long already.

Means "Reclaim Your Game." http://reclaimyourgame.com/

When i try to go to RYG thru my Favs or thru the link above i get a warning from Malwarebytes that the page is infected.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Witchboy/Screenshots/RYGPopUp.jpg)

Anyone else getting these warnings?

I got there just fine with Malwarebytes on. That's odd though.

Edit to remove photo from quote.

Well they are working hand in hand with Thoma$$ now.

If you are referring to Prism/RYG and TSR then you are so fucking wrong.  Prism/RYG is a neutral site for info.   Various  things are tested, including TSR's tool.  The first tests a few weeks ago showed no problems.  A different angle of attack was shown to the tester and he found the AV warnings. Without Prism asking or contributing to the fix, TSR did fix the programing.  It then tested clean for warnings.  All Prism did was the test the stupid tool both before and after.

Prism/RYG have no vested interest in the pay versus free debate.  In fact most of the sims players on Prism are against paysites, but that is not the mission of Prism/RYG.

Get your facts straight before you post such dribble.

Regardless, Thomass will use the neutral site to his sole benefit. He will take the "latest" findings and spread the word that the TSR tool has been tested by a neutral third party and is safe when it has been proven time and time again that they are anything but safe (unencrypted passwords, sharing people's paypal info, hacking accounts on various forums).  All that has been accomplished is to lend legitimacy to an extremely shady site that hasn't earned it in any way, shape or form and provide them with cover for their next assault on the free community.

(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q303/egypt_girl333/applause.gif)
That pretty much sums it up. Very well said, Snarky.

For starters, Paden this is NOT directed at you. I agree with everything you have said in this thread.

Oh man....I'm going to go on a rant here. And none of you RYG people try your lovely dovey lets all hold hands, sing Kumbaya, choke on granola, and make hemp bracelets shit on me. Not gonna work anymore.

By the way, well said Snarky. Getting involved with Thomas is the worst idea anyone could have come up with.


Second of all Nightmare is someone I've had issues with since modding at SAS or PRISM or whatever it's called today. I'm not going to stir up the shit that happened there, as I am not in a particularly good mood as is, and it has no relation whatsoever to this thread. However, for a long time I have been holding off on this for the sake of a few select people who were still there. Since as far as I know they have left, I have this to say to you Nightmare: Fuck off, eat shit and die.

Thank you and have a good day.  ;D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Witchboy/Kittehs/Joan102.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Witchboy/Smilies/Food/popcorn4.gif)

Use http://anonym.to/?http://www.recialyourgame.com If you get no longer the warning, then your CPU is fucked for good.

Markus, you were the only who complained when I was made a GM in SAS. My contributions to the technical side of SAS/Prism have been great. And yours? fucking off the whole site with your admin access and getting yourself demoted? Maybe you can show us your site and show us how much you have learned? Oh, you don´t have a site? You are a spineless wimpy pussy who has envy of me? Oh I´m not gonna sleep tonight with those insults you have thrown off....

Maybe if you concentrate on doing productive work to the gaming community instead of "how I can get the ladies to suck my e-cock"?  You would have gone further.

Get lost, loser.



QFT. If they have done in the past, they would repeat it. However there won´t be any more benefit of the doubt and elluding my draconian controls systems isn´t easy.

I think the whole lot of you need to deflate your ego's a bit and realize that your both fighting the same damn fight on the same damn side.

I agree. This is starting to sound like a pissing contest.

(http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/paperbeth/ShutUp2-Aixsponsa.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Witchboy/Animated%20Gifs/peeing-man.gif)

Using the http://anonym.to/?http://reclaimyourgame.com/ worked for me.

Then you may have a serious malware in your CPU. Maybe the explorer. First try another web explorer. Then if still getting that, try an online tool analyzer, Kaspersky, Symantec, etc.

OK wasn't going to bring this up, you wanna know why I complained asshat?

The place was in dissarray and the last thing needed was more mods. Only reason I was concerned. That was it. I left of my own accord, I was NOT demoted, I specifically asked not to be an Admin because to be honest it sucked, and unlike you I have a real life to worry about. At that point if I was demoted I'd have thrown a huge bash anyway because I was tired of being there. I'm not going to rehash this any further, and will not be going anywhere. This place is like a second home to me, why don't you get lost loser?

Craftingmomma, you can put it anyway you wish. Birds of a feather and all that.

Gee, from the way I heard that they talked to Delphy about the crews of both sites, it doesn't sound like they were too happy/impressed. Y'all got called idiots and fools by Thomass, is that someone you want to work with in the future? I do understand keeping the enemy close so that you can feel when they're about to do something rotten, but don't you worry about them crapping on your carpets or wiping their greasy fingers and faces on the draperies? Keep a good, hard eye on them, Blade and don't let them get away with sneezing sideways or anything else.

well i tried it with firefox and opera. got there with no warning. the weird thing is malwarebytes is not giving the warning today in ie8.

Free advice. Don´t buy online or do any serious use (paypal etc) with IE8.

I never have anything to do with Internet Exploder unless I can help it. I picked up a virus while on IE last year and it wasn't caught by my Anti-Virus/Antispy and I ended up replacing my hard drive. It is bad enough that if I want to use a a PC and have access to all my programs I am forced to use Windows, since most of what is available simply isn't for Mac's (there are other Operating Systems for PC's but I would end up abandoning most of my games and graphics programs), I refuse to deal with IE as on top of Windows XP/Vista's craptasticness. I use Google (though avoiding Chrome like the plague) and Safari for Windows no IE for me.

Luckily I never go to The Shit Resource and don't use their creators tools for any of the three Sims Games. I would rather use the less user friendly but, not as likely to bork you computer forever tools released by Peter Jones, Delphy, and WesHowe to create for TS3 if, I ever decide to do anything beyond lots and Sims.

Personally, it worries me more that -nothing- shows up now.  If they were trying to make test runs of virii last winter, then then maybe they are just trying to get third-parties to test and see if they've hidden their crap better.

Sorry, i -don't- fucking trust TSR, and I never will.  I don't need them to screw me over to be wary.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Witchboy/Kittehs/OCoconut.jpg)

Fake edit....

Removed text & added the above ;D

WB, obviously coconut...

- was tapped by Obama to head the soon to be announced Office of Internetz & Gaming Funz
- retired to a tropical island in the Caribbean and opened a donation-only gift shop
- has gone deep, deep undercover at EA as Maxoidcoconut
- is tied up with duct tape in atwa's root beer cellar
- married Pescado and is preoccupied with the daunting task of keeping his tighty-whities white

*does -not- pass an m&m out of her nose, nor does she spray carbonated water on her desk* But that was a good laugh :)

:D
Oh dear, poor Coconut.

I'm going with "Is tied up with duct tape in atwa's root beer cellar".  ;D

I'll take - "Who is married to Pescado and is preoccupied with the daunting task of keeping his tighty-whities white?" for $1000 Snarky  :D

NEW UPDATE!
TSR confesses to keylogger: Makes up lame excuses for how it was only to catch the Alt key for the UI. (http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php/topic,16004.msg470459.html#msg470459)

This explanation is about as believable as someone assembling a nuclear warhead claiming they only wanted to use it to cut down some trees because they couldn't figure out axes and chainsaws. Trapping the alt-key is a standard piece of the Windoze programming API and DOES NOT REQUIRE WRITING A KEYLOGGER TO DO.

The confessions -



Pescado at maty -


So coconut was (surprise surprise) spot on when she warned us that TSR might be planning to use the tool for criminal purposes. All I can think to say is that anyone who CHOOSES to believe what Thomass and the rest of his flunkies from TSR have to say regarding that piece of malware is being a gullible fool. Or maybe dealing with the reality of TSR doesn't fit their current agenda.

Well that answers WB and Shannow's questions on how they were hacked.  I am not shocked by this though, nothing that TSR does surprises me anymore.The shame is that there will be members of TSR that will swallow their explanation without question.  That bloody tool raises more questions than they give answers to anyway.  Fucking Bastards.  I take it RYG has denounced Thomas and banned him from their site as Nightmare stated they would.

I haven't been around the sims community that long.  Hell, I've never even played sims1.  I found coconut's blog around Christmas of 2008.  I've read the entire blog, which started out in a thread here.  My question being, why would the free community continue to let TSR smack them around and insult them.  Maybe tools are just tools, but these people have used and abused the free community.  I'm just not sure why anyone would want to be involved in their stench.  Especially the ones who've made tools for free, just for the love of the game.

I really feel that any involvement with TSR is sending mixed signals.  It makes me want to ask "Has Anyone Read Coconut's Blog?"  They've admitted doing wrong.  They've never apologized.  They never will apologize.  I just don't get why tool makers think they need TSR.  You didn't need them before.  They needed you.

This really doesn't surprise me in the slightest, however I don't think this is how they got the passwords... If they had a keylogger installed on my system it would have been useless because a)All my passwords are saved by firefox so they don't need to be entered and b)I use Keystroke encryption software to protect me from keyloggers.

None of my accounts with a different password to TSR were hacked, so I'm 100% sure that this is how they gained access.

The fact that they didn't use this program to hack my accounts by no means lessens the illegality of what they are doing, they just found a more efficient way of doing what their spyware couldn't.

It beggars belief how many different ways TSR comes up with to screw with people.  Nevar forget, Nevar forgive.

The reason so many people let TSR keep going is because the free community is made up of decent people and not all of us are cynical enough to stop trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Personally, how many of us would actually do any of the crap TSR has done?  I know I wouldn't.  So, we have a hard time wrapping out minds around the behavior of TSR too.

My postcount may be low, and I may be no expert, but I feel that it comes down to this:

We will never descend to TSR's level.

We will never hack them. We will never defame them. We will never steal from them. We will never fill their Fotobukkits with porn. Most of all, we will never mislead or steal from the company that, with all its faults, has given us joy: EAxis.

Largely, our fervour is based on faith that, if we scream loud enough, no matter how many times we're silenced on the BBS or TSR forums, someone of note will flinch, pause and say, "Hey, wait," and the people who really don't care that TSR has stolen from them will start caring.

And then there's my personal theory that there's no doing such because TSR is bribing EA, but that's crazy talk. OR IS IT???

I am a little pessimistic about that. However it would be nice to think that he realizes helping them was a bad move, and that he'll learn from his mistakes. Knowing Kath though, they'll probably unban Thomas and make him a mod. :D

Well we wouldn't want to seem too harsh now would we.

Kath?  Same Kath as the former co-owner of InSim or someone else?

Nope.  Different Kath.  Her username on the phorum is Saraswati.

So what exactly would it mean if the Alt button was/wasn't used? I'm utterly confused to as why it's so damn important to them...

I don't have the tool but apparently it has something to do with a command for the 3d preview thing.

I've been playing Persona 3 cuz Sims 3 kinda sucks but anyway I just caught up and...

Ya know, the Sims community is masochistic. TSR keeps pulling worse and worse crap and a ton of people who do absolutely know better just bend over and say "thank you sir may I have another." (Pescado gets away with shit too, actually, but asshole that he is I think he's still a net benefit, so meh.)

Gee let's all be "reasonable" here! We wouldn't want to go overboard accusing people we know to, at every turn, have made vile moral choices! After all, when they talk to us, they're nice, right? They don't swear or challenge us or argue or make us uncomfortable. They flatter us. They ask for our help. They've been proven to pull shit that's illegal, immoral, and just plain wrong, for YEARS, but why can't we all just get along? *sob*

See, I don't think it's "reasonable" to trust lying, cheating, money-grubbing scumbags. I guess I'm just a paranoid fanatic, huh? In the past few weeks, I have been enlightened, and I can truly see why Pescado became Pescado. Ugh.

*thumbs up* Exactly my thoughts. I could paint stripes on my body, but that wouldn't make me a zebra.

Neriana, I've been trying to say the exact same damn thing and for some reason, could not get the words out this time. Thank you and no sarcasm is meant in that.

No, but it would make you very much like her -

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3112/zebrastripesf.png)

 - someone who just likes looking like a zebra. And that would mean that you're just plain cuckoo bananas.

I'd string Thoma$$ and his disciples up in a heartbeat, personally.  I'm just saying why I think people keep giving these bozos the benefit of the doubt.  It is hard to fathom a crooked heart when you don't have on.


Or as Pescado says, judge by actions, not words.

Or, you're just too stubborn to believe that people can be like that, or you can be easily fooled by bullshit artists, or you like the attention you get for trying to steer them straight or you are in their pocket and just don't realize it yet. Whole lot of different reasons to explain the same damn thing: not exposing and denouncing them for the lying, cheating dirty motherfuckers that enjoy taking your money and fucking over your PC that they actually are.

Honestly though, given how many Simmers I've met over the years who play no other PC game (maybe "casual games" like on the flash sites), it kind of doesn't surprise me.  They have no basis of comparison.  I also have no faith at all in humanity other than to assert their universe given right to be morons.  So you know, grain of salt and all. 

I can really relate to this.  I only play the sims, I have never joined or participated in any other forums any where on the internet. The way some people behave in the community sometimes still shocks me.  It took ages to sign up here, because I had read people's opinions about the site before coming here I was more swayed by those opinions.  I was so naive I was a TSR wet dream.  If I had gone there first I would have loved the atmosphere,  the fake helpfulness, and yes, because I hadn't really checked into the free/paysite debate I would have subscribed to TSR, after all I wouldn't have been paying for downloads, I would be paying to be a special member of their site.  So luck was smiling on me when I didn't click that link on the BBS.

I'm just like justso.  The sims is the only computer game I play.  I used to play a few dos games back in the day, but that's it.  When I found out through Nouk's site about TSR, which took me to the thread here, I was flabergasted. (A good grandma word).  I know I haven't been in the sims community very long, but damn I can see where TSR is fucking you all.  I wasn't around for sims1, and I was late to the show on sims2.  I understand that we never expect people to do bad things, but they do. Not everyone is like that.  But some people need vacation housing and what not.  So all you free creators have paid for that. 

I'm not going to say anything more about this.  I'm very appreciative for the mods that all the free creators have provided to me. 

Paden and Neriana are right.

I was a lurker before I ever posted. I saw Nouk's post about the sharing names and addresses thing and gave it a read. And I'd heard about this site from Susim's old site. I was a subscriber at TSR, but let that lapse when I read about what shits they are. The only two computer games I play are NWN1 online and the Sims both 1 & 2, but I woke up and smelled the coffee.

I agree with Paden and Neriana. Thank you for expressing it best.

I knew paysites were fucking us the moment they first popped up - at first, I could see a -tiny- fee because bandwidth was expensive.  I'd get a single month, get -everything- on the site whether I wanted it or not, then burn it to a disk.  But when bandwidth got cheaper, charging got lamer than it already was.  And when folks manage on -real- donations?

If a media service charges 10$ for me to broadcast to up to 50 listeners, and provides me with unlimited space to upload my music to play when there isn't a live DJ, and at a damn good quality speed - then it can't cost most of these sites -that- much to keep going, and if it does, they need to find a better provider.

I know -huge- sites do cost a bit, but really.....ask for donations, get [good quality] ads.  Lots of ways to pay for the expenses without -selling- what isn't yours to sell.

This boggles my mind. I don't understand this mentality at all. I mean I am all for reading a range of opinions to make an informed choice, but I also want direct experience to be able to decide for myself. I would never think, 'Oh I wonder if I should go check out that site. Let me see what other people say about it' I would just go!

A wonderful example of this sort of mentality in the community is the recent patch. I've read lots of people running around like chicken little announcing how it will destroy your game bla bla. When questioned on what their actual direct experience was with patch a number of them had none! They hadn't even installed it. They just read something someone said on the BBS or TSR or MTS or where ever that it was bad and caused problems and so they accepted that as fact and went even further to run around repeating it as such to others. Most likely the originator of that anecdote had problems due to user error but that doesn't get conveyed. All that does is PATCH BAD!

I am not saying don't listen to anything anyone ever says online, but people also need to keep in mind that it is just something some random yahoo says on the internet and unless you know the person very well then what they say should be taken with a grain of salt, not as fact.


I am so tired of that excuse. I already mentioned this on another thread, but I had years ago worked on a large very popular mod for Morrowind. I am talking over 100MB and it had thousands of downloads. This was in the days before the abundance of free file sharing sites too. We never had a problem finding somewhere to host our mod. Ever. If someone can't find free hosting for their files then they really aren't trying or looking because it is out there.

While I am on the subject of Elder Scrolls games and that community, I'm sure people here remember exnem and his Sims pay site. Well he modded for the Elder Scrolls games too. In fact he made one of the more popular body replacers for Oblivion. He never charged for his Elder Scrolls mods because the community would not tolerate it.

There is such a huge difference of thought on pay mods content in that and many other gaming communities vs the Sims community.

I remember once someone in the Elder Scrolls community told some German magazine they could put their mods on a CD the magazine was distributing with one of their issues and it caused a huge shitstorm in the community. People were outraged because they felt it was indirectly charging for mods by having to pay to buy the magazine. (In reality, they would charge the same for the magazine with or without those mods but it still caused a lot of outrage in the community)

TSR to me is the virtual equivalent of con artists swindling gullible old people out of their money. It's unethical and wrong.

At the same time people also need to educate themselves and make informed decisions and not just believe what some stranger tells them, or worse yet, hand them their money.

Well, yes - it is an excuse, but at the time it seemed slightly reasonable, at least at first - but then you add up just how many people were paying 5 dollars a month to download stuff and it makes you mad.

But that's also the excuse used by the KiSS site I was at a lot too.

The only way of knowing about this site at the time was reading conversations about it.  On most sites it really was the site that must not be named (including freesites) google really was your friend as no linking was allowed, most conversations about it were negative.  I did look for it and find it, it was just a while before I joined and commited myself to this site as there was a lot of posts to catch up on to get the real picture.  Didn't take long to work out that people will say anything, and do anything to make what they do seem legitimate, even rewrite the EULA when asked questions about it by noobs and newbies. All that aside you're right Motoki, mind boggliing.

You mean OtakuWorld? (I can't think of any other big KiSS sites, obscure enough as it is.) I remember when they started charging ages ago, and of course, I was too young to pay. Lost interest in that hobby pretty quickly.

Yup - could still find dolls other places, like Emby's but haven't looked in a long time.  OtakuWold is -still- pay but didn't see any new dolls, or not many.

Still got all my old dolls though, stashed on a drive somewhere.

Heh I haven't messed with KISS for years and years. I even made a few back in the day, but I'm surprised it's still around, much less people charging for it. :P

yes I know I had no bussiness over there a few days ago.  I was just browsing the files and some way or other it hijacked my browser and some anti-virus program downloaded and I couldn't get it to stop and then it started scanning my files and I finally stopped it and my McAffee came up and said that it had just deleted a trojan.  But then I couldn't uninstall it.  It had an icon in my tray but when I went to add remove programs it was not in there and then I tried to remove it from inside the windows exployer but it would not delete, so I had to do a system restore to get rid of it.  I think I will stay away from TSR from now on.  Talk about dodgeing a bullet.  >:(

You still may not have dodged it totally. These assholes are tricky and rarely is there a happy ending when dealing with the shit that site dishes out. Good luck, though.

You caught a nasty virus. Clean your system totally or expect an imminent explosion. Ditto for the good luck, had a nasty one a couple of weeks ago an gee it wasn't fun at all :(

This is exactly what happend to me.  Dr. House is right...it's probably not gone.  My husband had to reformat my hard drive and reinstall everything.

THe only time I've ever gotten a bad file from TSR, Avast found it just fine.  I did follow that up with a thorough wipe via Avast & Ccleaner (both the registry and regular cleaner) in safe mode in the interest of erring on the side of caution.  IIRC, I also installed and ran AVG that time in case it was finding crap that Avast wasn't.  Uncommon in my experience but it happens.  I just never leave AVG on my system because it's a little too resource intensive for my machine and it's virus scan is bloody effing slow.  I need more rams.

I don't remember anyone mentioning this. Back on August 9th Thomas posted a thread on the TSR forums about some updates that will be in the next update of the Workshop, and one of them was "Our own series of export plugins (similar to that of Wes) for the most popular 3D programs such as Milkshape, 3DS Max and possibly more." So TSR wanted to avoid using Wes' becuase you can't charge for content if you used his plugins.

I'm surprised they care, honestly.

Lets be honest- they don't care about either Wes's TOU's/EULA's for their tools, or EA"s EULA either. What they care about is money and  numbers of FAdownloads. Given all the crap they have pulled in the last 6 months memberships and downloads have probably been reduced enough to impact their bottom line. Remember the numbers on the front page for members includes ex members who have left like myself, Darqstar (they refuse to close accounts when requested to), banned members and anyone who has so much as registered for a free account- not just paying members. The downloads include downloads of tools, programs linked to the site like Homecrafter, and their free content from all three Sims games- the number of actual FA downloads for each game is significantly less than what they post for number of downloads per day. They are losing teh monieez and that is what having their own plug ins is all about if there even are any. After all they are just stupid enough not to realize that they can lie about having plug ins for their workshop all they want but Wes acan tell by looking at a file for about 5 minutes whether or not histools were used to make something or not.

TSR has updated there EULA for the shitty workshop program so that all creators/sites that use the workshop MUST link back to the TSR workshop page on there site or uploading thread. They are also asking for donations to the program to further line there pockets.

What kind of investment is that? Oh, and I'm sure the community will be thrilled to see that the same people who hacked, lied and stole on a daily basis are making more money to continue.

Thomass can shove this EULA up his ass. I'm sure it's wide enough.

No mention of links to MTS, Peter and Inge's sites, Echo, Wes, anybody else who did the vast majority of the initial research and library development.  What a bunch of assholes.

So they're gonna do what exactly should someone decide not to bother with their EULA?  Please tell us, TSR, what kind of asshattery do you plan to perpetrate should someone not honor your EULA like you shat all over EA's for years?

Donations for their own mess no one wanted from them in the first place...get the fuck out of the community, you revolting money-whore douchebags.

Anyone care to guess as to who these 2 full time programmers are of their program?

From what I understand these people are not part of the Sims community at all; just a couple of (I admit very talented) programmers they hired off of the street - probably freelancers. I know that Johan is responsible for decompiling the parts of the game that they haven't been able to steal from others while the programmers are working on the UI and 3D import/export and preview functions.

Edit to add moar:
So far three people have commented; all have donated. :(
(http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx174/ShanOw/sheeples.jpg)

::Headdesk!

God give me strength.  Do they have to do what they are told every time. This will only get worse, I honestly believe that Thomas & Co will not be able to keep their money lust at bay on this one.  Donations will never be enough for them.  The community has already paid for this with the vast profits TSR has made out of their subs.  All I can say is if people keeping bending over so easily they deserve to be fucked.

(http://i35.tinypic.com/2m5fl04.jpg)

Of course TSR is going to say that. I have a hard time believing its just someone they hired off the street. I know i have my bets on as to who they are.

Love the Whitless Houston graphic Kenmtl  :D I found those a few days ago and snagged them all.

People should also be more than a little concerned about what TSR will do once their competition (both free and pay) have downloaded and installed a tool that, at one point, came complete with a hidden keylogger. Given Thomass' sketchy, self-serving behavior in the past, there's absolutely no way that any good will come of this.

I would fully expect anything that Kate at Parsims, Jope and Suza at Simply Styling, NaziroPilar at Sims Control , Simenapule, SimsCri and any other free  creator using TS3W creates for Sims 3 to be posted as Shakeshaft or some other FA's work at TSR  in no short order if there are still little nasties left in there which I have no doubt there is.

Lovely. Who does TSR think they are, soliciting donations when they are a "professional" business? I at least hope those programmers are being paid a fair wage.

I find it interesting that they actually needed all that help and came to those people saying "this is all new so lets all be friends and work together on this" considering,


Unfortunately I just donated to my cable company for the wonderful service they provide the community so I'll have to pass. I'm still considering donating to my landlord but I'm not totally decided yet.

*shakes his head in dismay*  Unbelievable.  It can be considered a bad thing if it causes me, a normally calm person to want to give Thomass a punk rocker massage [AKA a beatdown with drumsticks].  Not going to visit the TSR again and won't be using their tool IF I ever go up to Sims 3 and want to make stuff for the Sims 3

Frankly, I prefer that we give him an old-fashioned Basic Training style blanket party, but I really wouldn't want to get that close to anywhere that thing sleeps.

They can take their donation request and shove it up their asses. Who the fuck do these people think they are???

I have a nice list of things I would like to donate to TSR - money isn't one of them- especially not for a tool that is known to contain a keylogger that could potentially give unethical TSR employees access to all of your content, your file hosting, and image hosting accounts, and your credit card and paypal information on sites you shop at like Amazon and Lush- nope

I'm pretty certain it goes back to what coconut pointed out -


After they secure that trust they may then have to play nice for a little while (if you exclude the WB and ShanOw incidents), but ultimately Thomass will take whatever leverage having The Sims3 tool affords him and use it to secure his position as King of Sims3 Content.

As far as him asking for donations on top of subscriptions, I think it's totally in character for a greedy asshole with money to act like a greedy asshole who needs even more money.

Yes, very interesting. As interesting as the fact that those "free" people chose to work with them.

I just donated money to the grocery store. Though they're so busy, if I get sick from something they sold me, or if I learn they spread the private information of other customers around to their entire staff, I surely will forgive them!

I wish I could have donated money to MTS when they were doing a donation drive. At least they deserve it, having given a lot to the community, and being a awesome site. TSR on the other hand, doesn't deserve a penny, for the horrible things they've done to the community.

I've been fooled once by them, but now I am try my damnedest to stand by my new stance with TSR, which is never again they are getting my money.  I will admit even to have followed the illusion of paysites being good, but that was while I was a youngin during the Sims 1 days.

Though I woulda still avoided Carla Niven like the plauge to be honest.

You say that as if not giving them money involves some form of effort.

Resisting the multitude of stupidity can be difficult for some.

Well, it hasn't been an effort ever since I stopped my sub with them as food during my lunch breaks became more important that supporting that site.  I was a subscriber while I was working for my first year, but I stopped subscribing after 2 months.  I will admit that I was still pretty naive while I was 16 with the whole paysite issue.  I know at that time that would put me at 12 still in Pescado's eyes.

Unless it's something cocking up on my end, but it seems TSR is having issues with a) letting me log in, b) loading pages and c) I'm getting a database error thrown at me when trying to load the TSR forum. Please be slowly dying, I would love to see the subscribers getting pissy :D

So I'm not the only one. I wanted to check some things and can only get the front page and site map to load. Would be great if they are dying.  ;D

Nope, definitely seems to be a site error as anything else loads. I can get the front page, browse two pages and thats that.

Well they are back up and working. Shame.  :-\

simsrocks (and anyone else) you can donate to MTS at any time, not just during a donation drive. :)

Anyone see this weeks secrets? Secret #20

http://community.livejournal.com/simsecret/68013.html#cutid1

Bleh, another typical T$R asskisser at work again.

I think the person involved simply doesn't understand that it is not possible to convince people, only to destroy them. That is something that has been quite clear to me over the many years of my life: Attempting to convince people of anything is a fundamentally pointless activity. Once you have made your case, if they are uninterested in believing it, then you simply proceed to destroying them if they get in the way. This is why you always must have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Thank you so much secret #20!  I'm so glad you pointed out our credibility problem!  So, from now on we'll just make stuff up. 

If you scroll down the page, you'll see that the person who posted Secret #20 is now accusing us of being greedy.


Well, you know what they say. Everybody lies.

Edited because I obviously can't spell.

Clearly, TSR is a beacon of transparency and accountability that PMBD must strive to emulate, if we wish to have as much credibility as they.

TSR can understand that terminology. They're familiar with pulling ideas out of their arse.

I'm glad the secret individual sees TSR for what it is - an "abomanation". :D

So, according to Secret Butthurt Pirate we need to do some pretty deep soul searching and figure out why we're turning off all of those incredibly virtuous leading lights of the sims community and what we're doing wrong that's causing them to go running off into Thomass' arms. Well, if I weren't so busy NOT giving a shit about being liked by people who will never like me, I might just do that.

But probably not.

As an auxiliary to the booty, I see the phorum existing primarily as a place for people to share information about the shady, greedy practices of paysites. It also gives them a place to vent their frustration and disgust with those activities. It's not about winning over people who CAN'T be won over.

Well, at least none of you folks get the finger pointed towards you with the words, "YOU are the reason the cause is damaged, YOU are what's wrong with the freesite community and you suck!" So what, I don't express myself with hearts and flowers and sunshine goodness, but at least I genuinely believe in what the cause was founded for. I speak my mind honestly and if it doesn't sound like something out of Oxford, oh well, I didn't go there. I'm a plain-spoken, at times aggressive, person. I make no apologies for being true to myself and what I believe. If people think I'm mean and suck, they think that and nothing I can do will change it because there is no way I'm going to beg forgiveness for not being the Emily Post of the free site movement. Although there does come a time when a person tires of being a scapegoat for all that goes wrong and they gradually fall silent.

Paden - Who cares what some fool on a silly 12 site thinks?  They're just jealous because you have fanboys who call you empress and they don't. ;)

I don't know how anyone else feels about the secret. BUT I do know that my particular feelings are somewhat diappointed. If you, dear anon who replies to our comments on PMBD via Simsecrets comment box, are/were a long time member, why not mention your beef here? If you honestly feel there is something that needs improving, then guess what? Unless you come right out and name specifics, nothing will even be considered. You can't just tell someone something is wrong and to fix it, without even alluding to what the problem is. Yes, some might yell and scream, but that is to be expected. If you came to my house stomping mud in my kitchen, eating my oreo's, I would yell and scream as well. BUT by posting via SimSecret, your losing credibility because we can only refer to you as "anon." Not to mention your pleas for change falls on deaf ears.

I would like to invite this member to either PM myself, or any member of staff if they don't feel comfortable bringing these issues to light in the open under an identifiable name. Why? Because it's easier to negotiate with a name. ;) Also because how do we know your not a butthurt member that got ripped a new one? How do we know that your honestly trying to improve the image?

Yes I have seen people on other sites rant about PMBD. My opinion, some of it could be valid. Opinions are just like assholes, everyone has one, and some are more stinky than others. So for someone to voice on another website about their dislike on PMBD doesn't mean that there aren't other who enjoy the phorum. Not to mention, with how hard the staff has to work, I feel the secret is a slap in the face. Even if you did clarify later on that you don't include all staff, to me the secret still includes everyone. So for those staffers who have fought the good fight, been there and done that, your pretty much saying that they are shitty now.

Finally, times change. Atmospheres of forums change constantly. New members join, old members leave. It's a never ending cycle. To pretty much say that the members now suck, and them prime was late 07/early 08 is very insulting to new members who have contributed a lot over the past couple of months. Or even the older members who have recently become more active.

Again, I know I am more than all ears for someone else's opinion. But I won't negotiate with an anon on mystery problems whom insults other members of the forum.

Everyone is People are taking this secret thing so seriously.  Why?  I'm not convinced this person is really from the phorum.  Granted, I've been here a very short time, but in my experience, people here have no problem voicing their disagreements with each other.  Debate and disagreement are allowed and encouraged and considered healthy.  Hasn't that always been the case here?  Complaining anonymously on a gossip site seems out of character for someone from here.  If the poster really is from here, but can't be bothered to discuss things openly, why even bother with them?  If they don't like how things are done, they can do things differently themselves, then show others what results they got.  Unless whoever it is comes forward, I'll continue to think they're just a shit-stirrer and maybe a fake too.

Eeeeek! Stop quoting my fight with BeosSuckItBoy! That hurts, painful memories and probably reason number 1 why I joined PMBD :-[
Yes I'm giving him an awful name 'cause yes I hate that bastard. So those who want to say that I'm being evil go to a pink fluffy forum filled with love blinking smilies and when you're fed up come back here for some rum'n reality!

That secret is odd, poster is either blind or dumb. People are turning to TSR?! Hahahahaha. Moreover OP seems to has a personal peeve against Inge, which is even more odd. I mean we all know Inge's stand for years, we're used to it... So why the hater from an ex troll?! 'cause yes it seems OP was a major troll: misunderstanding everything that much is amazing. What more if OP hates us so deeply well good for us, one less troll to keep up with during weekends :P

Yanno, the fact that this person is producing walls of commentary that they started themselves about their own secret and is practically live blogging the responses from here kinda makes me question the actual altruism of their mission.

It's been my experience that anonymity somewhat negates the point of attention whoring.

I'd almost responded to it at simsecret, kenmtl, but then I realized that it displays many of the same characteristics as a particularly infamous phorum troll. The one that gets off on claiming that what she's doing is for the greater good, when in reality it's all about her knowing more than anyone else (and woe to those that don't heed her advice!). Whether or not it is that particular troll doesn't even matter, they both spew the same counter-productive bullshit and enjoy being in the spotlight way too much.

Done with that.

Ignore it and it'll go away. Feed it and it'll hang around the back door forever...like some stray dog. An ugly, unlovable dog. With fleas. One eye. Half a tail. 3 legs. And warts.

*nothing against dogs, I love dogs actually. :)

I don't know why anyone ever pays any attention to anything at SimSecret, frankly. I mean seriously, is the phorum going to start rending its garments AGAIN because some cowardly brat whined about us? Obvious shitstirrer is obvious.

I agree with neriana. Since it's an anonymous sekrit, I think we ought to just consider it a farce and move on. If there was a name attached, then I might try to care a little.

One thing about that secret, in the comments, I love that we got attacked because we don't go out and alert companies because we are afraid it will do more harm then good. So all of a sudden we are supposed to risk free sites getting shut down to be more credible than TSR? Thats some logic there.  ::)

Well it's about time we got a Sim Secret. Those GOS bitches were hogging all the attention.  ;)

The whining and back patting going on anonymously in the comments is hilarious. How ROGUE you are, anonymice.

Meh, if my post came across that way, it wasn't intended to. I meant my post to more along the lines of if you have issues, bring them here, not there.

To the anon, this will be the last I'm responding to you, because like I said, if you want to be taken seriously, then come here. Knowing who you are does not create any burden for me or you. It gives a face to "debate" with. Do we know your a long time member? Are you a long time member in good standing? Are you a long time member who is just butthurt? Do we know if your just a lurker? There have been tons of complaints from lurkers on other websites. But that's just it, they are lurkers. If they don't contribute to the forum/booty in some way how are supposed to take them seriously? If I open a business, and sell ice cream, how am I supposed to take advice from the guy selling pancakes? PMBD wasn't meant to be a fun filled community forum, or at least it wasn't in my eyes. It was meant to open the eyes of the community as to what they are paying for, and expose those dirty paysites of what they actually do behind the scenes with your money or your information. I read your replies, and how do I know that those multiple anon replies aren't just you? How do we know they are separate entities sharing a like mind? We don't. As far as I'm concerned, until I see any proof otherwise, I am just going to assume that it was mostly you. Actually, a good bit of them are from you because you just kept replying to yourself responding to comments made here.

Which to say the least, is kind of pathetic. You want to call Snarky selfish in his ways, yet you can't even do it under your own name? At least give him a name to make funny remarks back to. Just so the anon knows, no I'm not being buried in drama. This is my opinion. If I didn't agree with the general forum mentality of "meh" on the secret, I would say so. Unfortunately for you, it's easier for you to just dismiss me as drinking the kool-aid than it is to actually listen.

Until I see a complaint from a forum member, under a name, I just say meh. If we changed the forum for every last "anon" person who complained about PMBD, we would no longer be PMBD.

OK, I'll bite.

I've raised this issue many times before now.  The way some members treat other people who are actually on our side is BOUND to turn some people off.  Same deal only more so with respect to the treatment of people who are only tentatively or not at all on our side.  Disapproval or disagreement too often ends up as character assassination.  The invective is disproportionate and ugly. Not everyone here does that, of course, but a few do it to extremes. I'm expecting responses that shrug and say, "Why should I care?" Fine, don't care, but don't expect to win friends and influence people.

I've noticed that some of the strongest advocates against TSR have left the forum--or at least they're not posting anymore. That's a loss, and probably could have been prevented with a little tact.

ETA:  for the record, neither the secret nor any of the comments is mine.

Research has already found that debate is a completely ineffective tool for changing anyone's opinions. Placing two people of opposing views in a debate against each other only results in them both becoming more hard-line. In short, talk is completely ineffective at changing anyone's views.

Citations?  References? ;)

If the opposing views are based purely on subjective opinion, then debate may not accomplish anything.  If the difference of opinion is due to lack of knowledge, and the listener is willing to consider new data and admit they were mistaken, debate can be useful. 

Times, places, names and quotes please. Formless accusations are just that.

And frankly, if people can't handle being disagreed with about anything at all -- which I've seen plenty of times on this forum and others -- and therefore go off in a huff, my response is going to be to shrug my shoulders and not care. Life is far too short to spend coddling people who can't find their big girl panties. It's also too short for people who think that a few people who are "mean" to them are worse than criminals, and therefore go and side with the criminals.

I've read the study to which Pescado's referring. It has definite merit, but iirc it was one of those "throw undergraduate psychology students in a room and see what happens when X" studies, which while they are interesting starting points for more in-depth studies, need to be taken with a grain of salt.

By the way: the phorum used to be significantly "meaner". It lost a lot of members when people started whining about the "mean" people. Sunshine and huggles is not what the site is about, and if you want that, you're in the wrong place. It's an advocacy site which advocates destroying something we find utterly reprehensible. It's not going to be "nice"!

I wouldn't bite too hard, dietofworms. -  ;) There's the very real possibility we're being played. The secret's author could easily be a paysite pawn sent to drudge up anti-PMBD sentiment, a deranged phorum troll from any part of Pescado World, or just some run-of-the-mill coward who washed out of here at some point and can't get past it. Missbonbon even went of her way to accommodate them by offering to talk privately and was rebuffed because one the (apparently many) things they are afraid of is possible retaliation from TSR. You know, something we're attempting to prevent from happening to anyone else?  

Having someone come here and rationally debate the issue is one thing. Responding to one or more people who are anonymously flinging shit from another site is something else entirely.  


Couldn't agree more.

I don't keep track of this stuff. But clearly, even Neriana the Souper knows of it.

This is the absence of an actual position. However, as you can see, the information is readily available, and at this point any positions that remain are essentially religious.

The fact of the matter is that this study meshes with everything we already know from everyday life. It should be readily obvious that the only thing that has ever convinced anyone to do anything is violence.

I just want to take this opportunity to say that I, for one, appreciate the fact that PMBD is not one of those forums where everyone is so nice and sweet that it causes diabetes. I thrive on intelligent discussion.
The people here may not be all smilies and rainbows, but I like it that way. I feel that people who over-use niceties are often very fake, and they will turn on you without warning simply because you didn't live up to their level of fake niceness.
The people here are intelligent and even when they don't agree with each other, the disagreement is usually respectful and purposeful. I can't say enough how refreshing that is.

Also, in response to the claim that PMBD doesn't notify other companies of TSR's wrongdoings, several Disney execs will be receiving a well-stated letter, with links and screenshots of many of the copyright infringements being perpetrated at TSR.
I would post a copy of the letter, but I think it's better not to divulge the contents of it publicly, because I don't want TSR to know which crimes they need to cover up.

If you can't reason with a bully and you can't physically take him in a fight, then get a bigger bully to beat the shit out of him.

I disagree. Cash money is by far the more effective way to get people to shut up and/or do what they're told. Plus they can then use it to buy guns thus silencing the few inconvenients who can't bought.

I'm not inclined to go digging through hundreds of threads to present you with evidence when it's all around you.  Like in the thread below this one.

Also, every time I bring this up, I get responses that completely misstate my point.  I'm not saying that we can't disagree with one another.  I'm not saying that we need fucking unicorns and faeries. I am saying that we don't always present ourselves in a manner that deserves being taken seriously.

Yeah, of course the secret could be TSR baiting us.  But it could also be a genuine response, and my guess is the latter.  I've spent time in other forums where people talk about how nasty it is here.  To be sure, compared to MATY, it's Disneyland. But I think we can be a little more sensitive about how we talk, especially to one another.

I think what your going for diet, is to be civil, yes? If that's the case, I agree to an extent. There's a big difference between disagreeing, and then calling someone a fuckwit and telling them to run back to their mommies with nothing else brought to the table. With that said though, the only reason I can see for trying to improve upon that front would be to give the appearance of a united front. A kind of "we stand together on this issue."

But on the other side of the coin, I think how people express themselves here is what makes PMBD so special. I may hate so and so, but I can come together with them on a united effort. No matter how Joe may hate Billy, they agree that they hate paysites even more. I do think that most people don't see it the way I do though.  ;) The atmosphere here has calmed down from what was in the past. And I never thought I would say this, but if we "lighten" up anymore there is a good possibility that the entire cause/purpose of PMBD could be lost forever.

One of the anon's mentioned specifically easing up to make it easier to allow 13's12's. I am totally against that. I do not want some little kid in here whining about how hard school is, and how much of a bitch their parents are because they won't let them stay up past 12. I like the mature conversations, that can slum down into "childish" talk for the purpose of jokes. I like the fact that we don't have to label things not appropriate for minors. I like the fact that if there are 12's here, they can at least act responsible and mature enough to read their posts to make sure they don't sound stupid, and present themselves in a mature manner. There are plenty of other websites that oppose file sharing, with plenty of other members that oppose file sharing, that the 12's can go to.

The only downside I see to not allowing them here, is they miss out on a lot of first hand information. But nothing in stopping them from informing themselves. They can read all they want, just if your going to act like an idiot, then don't post.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I don't understand. I don't get why PMBD has to be the only forum dedicated to stopping paysites, and why we have to allow everyone and their mother here. Could someone not create their own version of PMBD, that has softer rules? A PMBD Jr. if you will. I doubt Pes will do it himself, but I don't see any reason as to why we/they couldn't mull over options for free hosting, to make a free board, for those that find PMBD to harsh.

Isn't that what Simscave is for? A sharingland of happyfunpeople? And Soup?

Being pretty new to this site I figured I may as well give my 2 cents worth on the issue at hand. I'm a lurker, I tend to show up as a 'guest' on a few forum sites and only pop up as a member if, for one the site doesn't seem to be run by total asshats, and for two the people posting seem to be genuine.

I don't care too much for whatever seems to be going on on the other forum, anon posts are pointless attempts to shit-stir and so they are to be ignored 99.9% of the time, unless they are helpful and/or vaguely sensible, though the one in question seems to be a member of the overwhelming majority. Compared to sites like MATY this forum is much calmer and much more open, where people with strong views come together there are bound to be disagreements but members are all here for the same reason. Paysites are pointless, people are wasting good money on tat, and the action of selling these things is fundamentally illegal. There are forums that encourage the sharing of paysite files, of hard to find items e.t.c, a good example would be simscave, polite, non-invasive, and undermining paysites everywhere with their file sharing. I suggest if anyone does not like the way things are done here they can always hop over to one of the 'PMBD-lite' forums and try their luck there, though I don't wish to be offhand about anyone's concerns, in my experience at least, they don't seem well founded.

*slopes off to lurk some more*

I personally don't find this site to be too harsh.  Even when it comes to those that break the rules in the FAQ and try to use ignorance to get out of trouble.  I've learned on my dealings online to own up to your own mistakes.

I also personally think that the person that posted the cryfest about the phorum on a different site was probably one of the requesters that we had post in Sharkbait and decided to go BAWWWW on a different site.

You have a point. :P Thanks for reminding me that I have beef soup in my pantry, and that I must consume it immediately.

missymoo, thanks for delurking in order to share your thoughts. I'm fairly certain that there might have been more than few members who needed to hear something positive about PMBD right about now. Especially coming from a newer member.


You pretty much said what missymoo said, so just shut the hell up. -  :)


Just so you know, if that were my soup I wouldn't share it with you at all. Cause Iz selfish!

I never heard of SimSecret before it was mentioned in the thread here.  It's an interesting concept.  I think I saw a similar site in one of the old fandoms I used to be part of back in the day.  The problem seems to be that those sites always turn into slander fests because everyone can hide behind their veil of anonymity.  Having seen the responses over here, I'm not sure the person picked the best method for the crowd they were trying to communicate with.  There did seem to be a couple of good replies over in the actual secret thread, so that might be helpful.

I tend to agree that discussion probably isn't going to change the minds of people (as relates to the primary focus of pay sites v. free sites).  I do, however, think that this overlooks a pretty large population (of which I was a member) of people who simply don't follow the fan community enough to know about what is going on.  I'm having a hard time remembering, but I'm pretty sure I found TSR through a fansite listing on EA's Sims 2 website.  TSR (much like MTS) can be a convenient one-stop-shop location for lots of people coming into the fandom.  I think there are quite a few people who simply publish and download, never looking any further into the site.  Those are the people who need the information.

I think the anon poster is right on one account.  I think TSR is very good at showing a bright, cheerful persona to the public.  It wasn't until some really weird things started happening to me personally that I started doubting the "free stuff is free" kool-aid they hand out over there.  Having only recently started posting here, I have to say  that it was a pretty rough introduction.  But, that said, for as many people who initially doubted my motives, I think there were at least an equal number of folks who were immediately friendly, encouraging and helpful.  I'm still not posting all that much because I'm trying to get a feel for the new community, but I think that is normal for anyone coming into an already established group.

Ignoring all the stuff about the forums, I still would say the primary purpose of this site is access to booty and access to information.  The only constructive ideas that I might suggest would be to link the Quick Info (Info in the box on the upper right corner) directly on the front page.  Then people could access booty and also up-to-date information without coming into the forum.  Another option would be a link in the FAQ directing folks to another free site (maybe like MTS or SimCave as has been recommended in this thread) if they're uncomfortable with the tone in the forums here.

It seems to me that one of the most important facets to the group who has made a community here is your forum (in whatever direction you decide to take it).  There are plenty of other examples out there on the net of forums that aren't "sugar and spice" (TWOP vs. Sucks for TV commentary for example).  The posters on Sucks frequently jeer at the commentary on TWOP because it just isn't critical.  There should be options for everyone.  You don't have to read or post if you don't like the content.  That said, I know I came here because I was looking for the information and an introduction into the free community.  There may be other people like me out there.

It is my overall impression that the message here isn't "PMBD or die", but rather "free sites or die".  I know I strongly received the message to not give up on the free community, even if I did decide that posting here wasn't for me.  I think the owner of the secret might not have gotten the same message.

I looked at the last few pages of that thread and I have no idea what you're referring to. If you have something specific to say, say it.

Regarding the SimSecret person: last I knew, flinging anonymous mud at people was rather UNcivil, and is, in fact, one of the nastiest, weaseliest things anyone can do. Either s/he is yet another troll, a TSR person, or got his/her panties in a twist because s/he couldn't be as obnoxious as s/he wanted here, so ran somewhere s/he would not be punished for obnoxiousness.

Unlike misselektra, I've never seen another community with anything like SimSecret. I don't see how something like that could possibly fail to be a negative influence on any community.

Obviously you have been blinded to TSR's recent success. In the last year they have gained more than 40,000 (Yes, there are that many stupid people) new subscribers. They also have more than 400,000 new free members. There average daily downloads has jumped from 500,00'ish to 691,096 daily downloads. They also have a wiki and are developing there own CC tools which look like they are going to monopolize the creating community.

Which ever way you look at it TSR are growing rapidly; our destroying activities are not working.

What ShanOw just said should be enough to cause major considerations about how PMBD works - or apparantly how it doesn't work.

Personally I'm inclined to agree with DoW. I know some people here miss the good old days, when PMBD was all about being mean and spiteful to everybody. I don't. To me it often smacked of people letting all their real life frustrations and aggressions out online where it could be done without much consequence (like SimSecrets, really). And it definitely didn't do anything to attract more people to the cause.

I, too, appreciate that PMBD isn't all sugarcoated and sweet like other places, and that in principle you can say anything you want here. In principle, because you do risk getting slapped in the face with some very nasty stuff even for minor observations or comments. That still doesn't do much to attract people to the cause.

For me, I sometimes get so tired of all the negativity that I just can't be bothered to even check in and see what's happening here (mega-long threads that constantly weave off-topic doesn't do anything for my curiosity, either).

Pescado, dialogue and discussion may not actually change people's views. But the more a subject is talked about, the more people will know it exists. Hence, the more people talk about paysite issues and the more of them that come here to discuss, the more of those 40,000 new TSR subscribers will know that there is an alternative to what they are currently doing.

Anon said that we use the "catch phrase"  think of the children.  Well that we should.  With every attack, every real name revealed, address displayed, account hacked and porn posted in said hacked account TSR has proven more and more the depths of their depraved commitment to destroy those who speak out against them.  They rigorously police their own site to remove anything that could be seen as a negative comment about them.  They seem to be trying to do the same thing to the rest of the internet.  Silence the voices of dissent through any means they deem necessary, legal or illegal.  PMBD and its members have been the main focus of these attacks, although they do seem to be branching out.  For example:  Simsecret getting hacked and secrets erased and buggybooz MTS2 account getting hacked.  If we dont discourage the 12's from being vocal and posting here.  How many of their home addresses, real names, user names, and passwords will TSR have at their fingertips in a years time, and what are they going to do with them?  Because 12's wont pay attention to the warnings and advice; they'll do stupid stuff and get caught at it because they ran around acting like a 12 year old.  And then the blame for it will fall on us because we enabled the situation by letting them in and not letting them know this was something only for adults who are willing and able to face the potential consequences of TSR's underhandedness.  This is the most important reason for keeping the 12's out.  If we're nice here they're going to show up in droves.  Is there another solution that can keep them from getting a target painted on their back?  Maybe we could quarintine them to one section or something but would that keep TSR from targeting them just for being here? 

Sorry if I sound stupid but that's just what I feel is the main reason for PMBD being a bit prickly.

In a lot of cases some of our members have moved on because of RL. Like Nouk and Cala. Cala I'm sure is working on her paper which I think is nearing completion or at least one of the last times I remember her speaking of such. Sometimes, we really don't have anything new to say other than "Thomas is a dirtbag or Atwa is running loose again" and some people I'm sure are tired of that so they may not be as vocal as before but still read to see if there is any news.

BUT that doesn't mean we have to change the forum or its "tone" if you will. I remember reading a thread here a few years ago titled "The Golden Fucknut Award" and it was long and rambling at times, but the woman it was about was really an odd duck. Sure a lot of the people who posted in that thread aren't around any more for whatever reason. I think some people are working on things behind the scenes that if they post it here, like PaperBeth said, will alert TSR to what they are doing. I hope once they get some result, we can see what was sent, but for now, I'm content to wait.

MamaKitty;
Yes but the opposite end of the scale is that if the 12-18 crowd is discouraged from being here- and are turned away by what they perceive to be negative or aggressive behavior (and some of them are) they will continue to turn to paysites like TSR, Peggyzone, and Rose for Custom Content- sites where they will continue to be exposed to non PG-13, inappropriate content and where they will be exposed to having their information shared, and sites hacked because paysites like TSR are not just doing this to Free Community Members they don't just feed on us in the free community- they eat their own young as well. The information sharing occurred when subscribers and contributing  creators (e.g TSR's free creators) who were thought to be file sharing had their info shared out to TSR FA's and other paysites. Most of the people who have had their sites hacked, had pornographic images placed on their sites (with the exception of L.J at Simtopia), had personal information shared, and hand their content stolen- have been adult creators and community activists.

The reality is no 13 year old should have forum accounts on any forum except those specifically geared to 13 year olds- no child should have unsupervised internet access but they do. 12 and 13 year olds steal their parents credit card numbers or otherwise con their parents into paying for paysite content because they heard about it at the official EA site where they are allowed to register (in fact, they have to to register their games), 12 year olds lie about their ages in order to join forums like here, Sims Cave, my site, and even BPS and GOS where issues with paysites are being addressed everyday by members. Issues ranging from EA's EULA to who content belongs to once you have alpha edited it, fixed broken meshes, and recolored it (is it pay, or is it free?)


So lets be honest, would we rather see them here- where real issues are addressed and where their questions about custom content, paysites, EA's EULA and other community issues are begin addressed- or do we want them somewhere like the official BBS, or TSR where those issues are ignored, swept under the rug, and deleted when they are addressed by anyone including the very people who work for the company.

 It doesn't have to be all sunny niceness and cookies and huggles here - by no means- people should be free to express themselves but, there is a fine line between expressing what we really think in a logical, well thought out manner (which many of us do) and crossing the line into being mean and petty. I will admit I have been as likely to jump all over someone new asking stupid questions as the next person but when people get mean and petty instead of logical arguments against paysites they - especially the 12's unless they are very unusual - are going to go right back to TSR and say" I know this shit is wrong, paying for pixels is against the EULA, and I don't feel right about supporting someones hobby, but the free community is mean" and they will continue to buy the TSR line. Because we are often (believe it or not) the first place the teens and kids go - because of the Booty- they like the work of some pay creators (I am not saying whether that is wrong or right since there are in fact pay creators whose stuff I would love in my D/L folder - If they went free) but don't want to pay for the stuff. If this is how they are perceiving us- as representatives of the free community - than they are not going to bother checking out BPS, GOS, Adele, Coolsims, All About Style, Club Crymsyn, Garden Breeze etc- they will go back to Peggy and Rose and keep paying for pixels

To by blunt we are trying to sell something just as much as TSR is- they are trying to sell for the most part poorly made pixels that don't work- we are trying to sell the idea that it is wrong to pay for those pixels- it is against the EULA, and many of the actions perpretrated by some (not all) paysite owners in regards to the Sims Community are illegal and unethical (hacking, porn botting, content theft) but, you don't try to sell something by whacking people in the head with a brick right off the bat- if someone came up to your door- told you that you were stupid for not buying their product (in our case the anti paysite movement) and that the competitors stuff was total crap and you were stupid to buy it- using curse words, and arguments that were sometimes more reactionary than logical- would you buy the vacuum or whatever someone was selling you- probably not. This is poor salesmenship.

I do tend to agree with DOW, Moune and Shanow when it comes to this- yes we might not be able to reach some of the adult paysites supporters with this- but we also have to learn from what the enemy does- and their tactics for drawing the young and vulnerable to their organization work. Their download and membership numbers (even if you take 20% off of the top for former members whose accounts are not deleted and the downloads of their free stuff) show this.

Rose and Peggy and  Thomas and TSR know that teens and kids who come to their site are impressionable- they know that presenting what appears to be a harmless environment is attractive to both these kids and their parents- kids are not to old, set in their ways or drawn in by the possibility of supporting themselves by selling pixels to learn- while I don't want to change who we are as a site- I think that we need to realize that our target audience has changed- Sims is no longer being touted as a game for adults and older teens - EA has proven this by promoting My Sims, Sims Kingdom, and Sim Animals- so the community that used to be made up according to the statistics (which are bull) of women is now mostly teens and kids - and when addressing newer members of the community on their initial visit - we do need to take that into account.

Who we think is a paysite troll might be a 12 year old genuinely interested in the paysite debate but who does not know the right questions to ask. Maybe actually have the FAQ link posted in Sharkbait underneath Requests since this is where the new members tend to go first. And instead of us bashing trolls- ignore them - yes smacking trolls down is fun- and I have done my share (Simaroo anyone) but, let staff deal with it as it says in the fAQ- let Pescado burninate them and sit back, drink some rum and watch the fireworks while the staff lite into them. It is a waste of energy better focused on other things like promoting free sites within the community or directing new creators to sites that will offer them the supportive environment to develop their skills without being a paysite - or to useful free community resources. I am not saying the anon is totally right on this- I am not saying they are totally wrong. If they were less well-anonymous I would say the have some valid points in some ways-

I think we as a group need to look at how the Sims Community as a whole has changed in terms of demographics- e.g. who is really buying and playing the games and adjust our arguments accordingly- that doesn't mean changing who we are it means changing our perspective so that we can see the pay vs free debate through the eyes of some 12 or 13 year old who just wants to learn how to create their own Cc, or who wants nice goodies to download- because that is who our community is- becoming thanks to EA. Lets look at who is creating,  and who is downloading and their ages- Shanow was still a teen when he started creating, Anto, is just barely out of secondary school, L.J, is 15, Adele is only now into her 20's, Snarky isn't that old - these are all free creators who were reached by the message that pay isn't okay - not maybe not  by us- but by someone and they have all remained free creators who do this for fun or for the challenge. The average age of users on MTS is 18-25, and you have to take into account that probably a good 25% of those members are lying about being over 18 and are in fact 12-17.

You can smack me down for this if you want but this is my honest opinion on this. I  do agree if this person is a senior member of the community it should have been addressed by them if not openly here in the phorum out of fear that what happened to Shanow and WB happening to them- it should have been addressed by pm to senior community members who are still active here. People would have been more likely to have taken anything said seriously, and would have been less upset and offended. I am sorry, I really dislike Sims Secrets- a community that fosters that kind of environment will eventually devour itself and is exactly the kind of shit that paysites foster(e.g. anonymity when complaining about shit, sweeping shit under the rug, backstabbing and hypocrisy) and is one of the main reasons other than the paysites themselves that there are so many damned divisions in the Sims Community - that simply aren't seen in other gaming communities cause they don't tolerate " Secrets Communties" or paying for custom content.

Well, here's my view on the matter: I don't want them running their 12ish yaps on my site. I hate 12s, and they don't belong on the Internets. Go be 12 someplace else. Besides, you don't seriously think some 12 is going to prefer to keep trying to justify why they need mommy and daddy's credit card when they could be getting free shit in SILENCE, do you?

Honestly, most 12's would justify using Mom and Dad's credit cards for pay site crud because paysites are the  the only sites they hear about at the BBS. I don't think they belong here either- I don't think 12's should be playing the Sims unless it is My Sims or Sim Animals either- since the game is rated PG-13 with absolutely no CC and in most cases if you have CC it is rated M (esp since the first thing most 12's do is install ACR and the evil of all evils that is not named here) - they also should not be on the internet if they are not supervised by a parent and on a forum specifically designed for kids- but that is not the reality of the world we live in. They do play Sims with CC and nasty hacks like Inteen (blechhh), and they do join forums which specifically state you must be over 13 years old to join them. They also have sex, steal mom and dads credit cards and do other stupid things- eventually they grow up- until then we have to put up with them- I'd rather deal with a 12 than a troll anyday

If anonymous idiots don't like the tone of this phorum, they can go find HappyForum. PMBD is what it is. Period. This place is all about destroying paysites--how do they think we're going to do that? With rainbows coming from our mouths? With smiles on our faces? With a slap on the back and a handshake?

More like a kick in the backside and a wad of spittle in the face.

Wake up, Anonymouses!

I'm really curious to know what the demographics for that figure are. Are they pulling more subscribers out of Europe, Asia, North America? What's the average age?  Would this information be listed publicly somewhere, or is it something we'd need a certain coconut's help attaining? The bottom line is that we'd be able to come up with a better strategy if we knew more about who was subscribing to that site.

Snarky- these are their actual statistics for downloads, page views, and demographics http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesimsresource.com (http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesimsresource.com). This is probably some different from what their front page says since that counts all former users like myself, Sailfindragon, Aikea Guinea and Gelydh, Darqustar etc who have left but, where they refused to remove content and close accounts. Their front page also includes downloads as free content on the site+pay/subscriber content on the site.

 mionionsrmine -Yes but that should be directed at the Paysites and their representatives  like Johan and all to frequently it is not - it is directed at people who may or may not be trolls who come here asking  stupid question- remember we are trying to get these people asking stupid questions to buy into our cause and you can't sell anything to people by whacking them in the head, spitting on them etc. Wanna know what I do to people who try to sell me something by smacking me in the face and spitting on me whether it be a cause (Anti Paysite Movement) or a vacuum cleaner- I tell them to fuck off, slam the door in their face, punch them right back, or go buy shit from the competitors (after all who is going to go to free sites when their first image of the free community is coming here and getting body slammed into the ground by 50 people- they will just go back to TSR), or at members of the free community - that is not what we are here for- destroying paysites means not bitch slapping noobs when they ask dumb questions  which is as the faq states should be handled by pointing them to the FAQ, and the Talk about the Booty Thread (having done it myself I can tell you some people here are more likely to smack people down for asking dumb noob questions first and point them to the FAQ later) , or bitch slapping creators/modders from the free community behind their backs and being all niceness and cookies and fangirl/fanboy shit in the Om Nom Nom, Freesite Creations, and Free Content Pwns Paysite Crap threads.

I am not saying stop being yourself- I support that more than anyone - that is why I left TSR. How noobs are welcomed to the forum now is considerably less polite than when I started here or when many people started here. " Please read the FAQ and welcome to the community" and a basic site orientation which is how I believe either Snarky, Rum Nate, or Darqstar welcomed me to PMBD, is a lot more effective tha " STFU NOOB- Read the Fuckin FAQ, Lurk MOAR!!!" which is currently how many noobs asking stupid questions are welcomed to PMBD.

 You destroy paysites by bitch slapping the paysite people, by making sure evidence of illegal actions makes it into the right hands, by promoting the free community to people who need to hear about the great free shit Like the 12's that sub to paysites, and by supporting Free Creators and Modders All the Time Not Just when they Make Something We Like or Do Something We Approve of other than in cases where they work with the enemy of course, and of course by making paysite goodies freely available and using their own weapons against them - not in terms of site hacking and content theft (e.g completely stealing another creators work and claiming as your own e.g. Shakeshaft and Monica) we are better than that,  but, in terms of promoting our cause  outside PMBD and going after the 12's (just like TSR does) who are the ones subscribing to paysites and who are the one's who believe paysite propaganda because it is all they are exposed to at the BBS/Official Sims Sites- unless we are more active in disillusioning them about paysite activities they will continue to support paysites and paysites will continue to exist- no matter how much we as a group dislike 12's or those that act like them we have to use what the paysites already know- get em young - we can bring em up right instead of paysite supporters- we end up with freesite supporters

When you are in a war you often need to change your tactics in terms of gaining the support of the neutral parties - e.g. people in the community who want their shines- whether they get them for free or pay for them and who don't really give a shite about the EULA. If the tactics you use don't work- change them. There is a difference between TSR, Peggy, and Rose fake niceness and being genuinely nice or helpful or having the best interests of the community at heart. You don't have to be a bitch/asshole to people to be truthful and honest, you don't have to be subtle, and if the situation calls for it, you don't have to be polite. But, if we truly have the interest of the community at heart in getting rid of paysites than we need to make it clear by not bitch smacking people who have not yet proved themselves to be paysite trolls, until they prove to us that they are  and proof does not mean just because disagree with us on some aspect of the paysite debate (e.g  by not thinking all pay stuff is crap) that they are trolls.

 Disagreement and debate is healthy- bitch smacking people for doing so is not- I am just as guilty as anyone else in this sense but I am not going to pretend that I am innocent, and shove all the negativity that goes on -some perpetrated by me behind a curtain and lie about it because this is what TSR and other paysites do. MOAR FIGHT does not mean lets just kill everything just because it doesn't agree with us ( well maybe it does to Pescado but he is a unique individual and he has the right to his own views)

As I said the person should have probably  been more direct in dealing with this issue - Sims Secrets does not foster a healthy environment for the community and is simply a forum for community members to bitch slap each other in a dishonest manner- both for pay and free community members. Sweeping shit under the carpet and hiding it does nothing and only adds to the problem- rather than solving it, and it is exactly the sort of paysite tactic that should not be fostered in the free community.

Agreed.

However, the anit-paysite message, as it were, is not only carried by PMBD, there are other forums, and sites which encourage filesharing and offer pay items for free. When I was new to the sims game (I came in about a year after sims2 was released, ahhh the good old days) I had no idea there was such a thing as custom content for the game. When I did slowly become aware of it the site I first came to was not TSR it was MTS.

What needs to happen is that the 12s toddle off to forums like simscave, MTS, and MTS3 where the bright friendly face of free CC is shown, I always found MTS to be a bright, engaging, and easy to use site, that was on the first google search page when you put in 'sims custom content'. All it takes is scrolling below TSR and having look at what else is available. What shouldn't happen is that this place, the grimy, argumentative, no bullshit, anti paysite hard-line forum gets diluted into something more about file sharing than about the drama TSR people constantly stir up and the illegality of selling sims items.

This isn't the face most people see when coming into the community for the first time, this is the place people should end up after they have some experience, both with forums (and reading the FAQ, seriously, how difficult is that? oO) and custom content. People coming here asking questions like 'duuuuh how do i put this supah kewl bed in muh gamezor?' are obviously in the wrong place, and to be honest, they will have been through other sites and forums to find this one in the first place, where their questions would probably have received a better reception.

While I agree with you, dstar, about being kind to others, there are folks here who do not follow the same, and I guess they're just not likely to change. Just like you won't find me replying & skewering folks who make a WCIF thread, you're also not going to see me suggest to others that they be nice to 12s. I guess I just feel like people are going to be who they are. If people don't like it, they don't have to read here. :-\

It should not end up that we end up as the face of the free community but it often does- 12's shouldn't be here- but then as I have already said- the Sims w/o CC is a PG-13 game- with CC it can often be an M Rated game depending on what sites the little darlings shop for their CC hence the 12's should not be playing Sims at all


They should be at places like MTS- or BPS - the thing is they often try to find the pay content they like for free and they end up here rather than at Sims Cave because the Booty is more well known and has more stuff  Parsimonious and Simply Styling  are pretty much the only free sites mentioned on the BBS,- which are lovely sites but don't have the type of content a lot of teens seem to want. Many teens go for the type of high fashion photoskinned stuff promoted on sites like TSR, Rose and Peggy rather than the elegant home decor posted at Simply Styling, or the Alternative/Historical Content at Parsimonious.


Believe me- I know not everyone is going to change- you can't force people to change. Some people will, some people won't thats up to them. it is also not a matter of being nice, or not nice- it is a matter of - we have enough real trolls and paysite representatives show up here that those who enjoy handing out verbal smackdowns can do so on a frequent basis without smacking people who are willing to listen to what the Paysite Debate is about or who are here for the Booty - but who just happened to ask a dumbass noob question in the wrong place  on the wrong day because they are 12's and 12's don't read directions or FAQ's. It's a waste of time and energy on our part that could  be refocused elsewhere.

Thanks for the link, dstar. It's surprising for me to see the recent upswing in their numbers. Though some of that can probably be attributed to the influx of new simmers after the release of Sims3, and also to the fact that TSR is all but officially endorsed by EA (a disadvantage we've always been hard pressed to overcome), it's still discomforting to see.

I'd also like to clarify my thoughts regarding the secret. The author of the secret was saying that we've lost credibility among community LEADERS who were then defecting to TSR's camp and (it can be inferred) taking a big chunk of the community with them. I totally disagree with the author blaming us for that. Many of those leaders have held a dim view of PMBD from way back.

You have, for instance,  Kate from Parsimonious (one of the only site owners I've ever gushed publicly about), a free site owner who has referred to TSR as her "friends" and who (if I recall correctly) made a pretty negative comment about Pescado once before. You also have Delphi, a leader with massive sway, who came storming over here when we refused to release Numenor's tanning bed from the booty, and who apparently refuses to believe that TSR hacked Buggybooz's account (after discussing the matter with Thomass, of course). How do you build a relationship with people who A) Don't like you, and B) Don't believe you?

They've had the same access to the same information that we have had, and we've seen more than one instance of some of them coming here and discounting either some or all of it (Inge and Delphy are two that come to mind). That they choose to discount coconut is not something we at PMBD can be held accountable for no matter how much the author wishes that were the case. So yes, contrary to what the secret poster is saying, it may very well be a case of community LEADERS burying their heads in the sand when it comes to TSR's proven unethical behavior.

Whether or not changing our mind set will increase our standing within the community is something else entirely, but it's definitely something worth discussing.

That and I believe that not many "non-casual" gamers joined the Sims community when it was first released.  Way when I first played the first Sims game, I didn't know much about CC for ANY game.  In fact, the Sims was the first modable game that I played.  Games that I remember playing before hand have very little to no customization in it.  Games included X-Wing, the original 3D-Ultra pinball, and SimCity2K.  I still remember SimsHost and the bad taste that left in my mouth.  I dunno why to this very day why I thought TSR was more reputable than SH, but my view on them have made a 180.

Dstar, even if I seem to join in with the pointing and laughing with the occasional headdesking at the Ugly Paysite creation thread, I firmly believe that deadlines COULD factor into why paysite creations, at large, look worse than their free counterparts.

And Snarkyshark, I snorted to your comment towards me. :)

When Sims 1 first came out there really wasn't much modding for video games at all- That may be why paysites managed to get entrenched in our community when they have not in other video gaming communities.

That's exactly what I meant. 

Neriana, you have a pm.

Moune, it's great to see you again. :)

i'm a new PMBD member. Not new to the Sims community or to disliking paysites.
But I am my own person, and have my own ways of going about the "destroying of paysites". But I still lurk here.
I don't download any pay stuff from the booty 'cause I don't think its right. I just don't give paysites my money.
I go to a lot of free sites that have donation sets, I figured when 90% of your site is high- quality free CC, and you give people who donate to help you keep the site running the other 10% of things that you think is better (but is not all the time)--- it was all good.
Not until I read through threads here did I see that "pay is pay", and sites like Liana or Raon where on the sh#t list. Do I think they are the same as TSR or sites where nothing is free or the free stuff is crap put on the site to lure you into the pay crap?? Not really. But that's just me. I may be wrong, but I'm not above seeing where PMBD is coming from in there reasoning.

I also don't have a problem with anonymous posts b/c if the ish that is posted is valid...a name or face matters none. I think that Sims secret was valid. It gave an anon opinion on PMBD-- i didn't say a true opinion, but a valid one. I wasn't written by a 12. And it may have been written by someone who gives a darn about the cause. Not everyone will like how PMBD is run, but this is not the only site to come to if u don't like pay-crap. It's not PMBD or TSR...there is a middle ground, and if u don't like Pescado's rules, then this isn't your place.

I agree with dstar...if you exclude 12s or huggety peeps from this site or the cause, you have very little pull. 12s and huggety peeps are now a large part of the Sims community. That's like trying to destroy McDonalds and not wanting overweight people or people who like little toys with their food apart of your movement...you won't get very far. 12s are 12s. They usually post first, ask questions all the time, never read the answers, and complain about meanies too much...but they also but Sims content from paysites like its candy-coated. But they need the info. I remember being 12 (ahhh!!!) and I may have done some stupid 12 ish, but I was smart enough to understand English and read and such, so I would definitely be here or at MTS if I was given the info in a decent way.

Don't really know what was happening here in 2006, 07, 08 so take my words as watered down rum if need be.  :P

Well its a lost cause to try and make them (comunity leaders or comunity) like Pescado.  Pescado will be Pescado and frankly I think thats a good thing.  It gives him the room needed to get crap done when the midden hits the windmill.  They don't like him but they respect his ablities and know that when the chips are down, the game completely fubared, and things like Walt monsters rear up their ugly heads, he's there and probably already has 3 or 4 contingency plans to deal with it.  As far as the rest of us go though, well we're just his evil little minions who have little to no crediblity in their eyes.  I'm not saying that we really are minions, personally I think ordering us around is probably like trying to herd cats, but thats how they tend to look at us.  

Something like a PMBD lite might be a good idea.  A place to acclimate/integrate(?) new users and users who've realized paysites are crappy but dont know what to do about it to the free comunity.  "free stuff pwns paycrap" would be a great idea to add into a place like that.  But not just this dress looks better than the meatslab dress.  Or this Brittney looks better than Chaz's new Brittney.  Start hitting them with the stuff they really fail at like:  Look at this lovely working carousel they have at MTS2 the closest TSR has is a picture of a carousel.  Best freesite finds, great mods finds, monthly featured free creators, and catorgorizing finds so new players/members have an easier time finding the type of item they're looking for.  A definative place to point the 12's to where they can gush and squeee and get involved on a level they can handle.  And still be considered (at least among themselves) pirates.  Because some of them really seem to want that.  Although having it so that Pescado can come in and trounce them if he feels like it seems like a good idea.  They'll need to get used to what the mastermind of the movement is like if they intend to take their pirate work to the next level and come here.  They should be reasonably able to censor themselves.  Member A(just signed up) will get repremanded by members B-Z(who have been there for a while) for screaming they want such and such TSR thingie in the booty cause now its going to take even longer for said thingie to get there(sort of like here but hopefully "nicer"); or even promote freesites by saying why would you want that thing this one's much shinier.  

That being said feel free to poke sticks at the idea.  I like the people here, and the site.  And I dont want to see them go away just because some other people think all of us as individuals here should change and be the fairy godmothers of the simming comunity.  Gods know I'm not up for that kind of thing, I've been out of "bibbity bobbity boo" for years.

 MamaKitty, I am attempting to do that with my site- people can come by and check it out if they want. I don't mind 12's (I work in technical writing and copy-editing - stupid questions and having to repeat instructions are party of my daily work) and would be willing to field questions about the paysite debate at my site- though not willing to host free shinies unless they are free shinies made by free community members. If other people choose to share their toys that is one thing- I just don't support sharing their toys without their express permission to be cool - and having it available only continues to promote pay content over free.


But I offer a free finds site and have a huge links library where the kiddies can find any kind of shinies they want from Photoksinned Sims by Stefan@MTS to replicas of the Gossip Girl wardrobes from Fashion Queen. I actually already do many of the features suggested in your post, free finds, pay vs free comparisons, creator profiles/featured free creators, and Oldies but Goodies in order to promote favorite CC or Cc that should be in everyones game like FWay, Leesester, and TBudgett's Maxis Wndows Expansion Sets, or the plants from Aussie Topenders

Sorry for being unclear, I wasn't suggesting hosting shinies just posting links and pics of them.  Didn't mean to cause that confusion.  If you're already doing and willing to continue I guess the best question would be how to get them to you with minimum frayed nerves on both sides and ideally how to get them to go there first and foremost.  We need a plan for this.  And a good one too.  That is if the rest of us are willing to do this? 

Havent had the chance to go digging around in your site just yet.  But I have been meaning to do so. 

If they come here asking about something that is not in the Booty - simply say - well if we do not have it right now it may be awhile- as the FAQ says we should do- redirect them to the FAQ- which will tell them all about paysites - and give them a link to your favorite 100% free CC site, finds site- or free community forum. I have found -that once you show someone Adele's stuff they won't want Cashcraft anymore- the same goes for showing them Agustin, or Anto's Hair if they come looking for Peggy or Rose hair that isn't freely available. Some people here already do this- Rum Nate and Dr House do so all the time when new people post in AAP or Sims 3 over in Sharkbait.

Ok here's my opinion on whole situation. I zero problem playing nice with noobs. It's really doesn't even register on my care radar. I can pat you on the head or punch you in the bewb, it's all the same to me. So if that's what takes then fine, we'll do that. I'll even stand at the door in a cocktail dress saying "Bienvenue". However I also believe that we are not the alternative to TSR. We are not a social phorum, that's not our purpose. I have no problem directing people to MTS or IS or BPS anywhere else that might be more appropriate for them.

My problem is the idea that a healthy and strong free community is entirely our responsibility or that the success of TSR is our failure. I don't accept that. There's an entire free community out there who benefit greatly by having the players at their sites and not at TSR. It's not our responsibility to make that happen. We can help by directing them, but someone else needs to do the work to make sure they stay. We're here to dispense information, what happens after that depends on whether anyone else cares or not. A healthy and growing free community is the responsibility of everyone who's a part of it. If you don't care or don't want to deal with it, then why should we do that for you.

It's hard to compete with paid professionals. Simmers want stuff for their game and that means production. TSR produces, they got a jump start on that production, and the free community helped that to happen. That's not a judgement just a fact. The idea that that was somehow our fault is ludicrous. The people involved are highly intelligent and capable individuals who neither need nor desire our opinions. In fact most of them probably know more about TSR than we do. They make their own decisions based on their own reasoning. That has nothing to do with us. It's not my place to tell Delphy or Inge what to do. Like they would or should even care. I mean really ffs, they've been around longer than most of us. I can express an opinion or a disappointment here on this site, but that's as far as it goes. That being said, I still admire them and am thankful for everything they do. End of story.

If a new happier and younger site is what's needed right now then so be it. Start a new one. Like someone said, (prob one of dstar's tl;dr posts ;)) when the port of entry for a lot of new people is the BBS and they're directing them straight to paysites, it makes it even harder. I don't have a answer to that one. Ea is never going to change their policy, everyone knows that, so if you have a free site and you want people there and not at TSR or Peggy, then you need to make that happen. It's someone else's issue.

On a different not, I'm having a slight problem finding these glory days when people here were not ripping each to shreds. Aside from the fact that when I came here in late 07 and got squarely kicked in the nuts for it, I've been reading some old threads and I'm not finding much in the way of hand holding and Kumbuya. There were some nasty rows going on here. It's actually why I stuck around. Well that and the naked drunken jacuzzi parties. Awww I miss Mando. So anyway, that one is going over my head.

I won't lie, I haven't read the walls of texts. Mainly because, dstar, I read your reply this morning, and I have had a few things to say...

I do not agree that we need to allow underage children. Period. Why? Let's start with the fact that we would have to change, literally EVERYTHING about PMBD. It would no longer be PMBD. For instance, you suggested keeping them in their own separate part of the site. How do you suggest that? Let me tell you a story. Back when I was young, and Neopets was fantastical, I signed up. For those of you who don't know, when you go to register, they have age groups you select. If you selected 13 and under, you had no access to the forums unless you printed a permission slip, had your parents sign it, and mailed it to Neopets corporate head quaters, in California. What did I do when I discovered this? I made a new account, and lied about my birthday. When you go to Livejournal, and that window that pops up and warns you about adult content not suitable for people under the age of 18/21, do you read it or just click on through? There is literally no way Pes could keep 12's confined to their own area of the site.

Second of all, someone would have to go through the entire site, and edit/delete any posts not deemed suitable for minors. That would a whole shit load of history, erased. Not to mention, how terrible would it look that we complain how TSR is NOT Pg-13, and then we are bringing all the smut here? Bye bye Smuttiest thread! Oh by the way, bye bye ugliest creations thread as well since sometimes creations in there are borderline smut sometimes. Those two threads alone, I personally believe helped change a lot about how the community views paysites, and more specifically TSR.

And to be quiet honest, none of the booty staff really have the time, or probably even the desire to run around chastising everyone, and banning people. Yes, we don't have to much of an issue now, BUT it would become increasingly worse.

And I doubt allowing 12's would stop the "PMBD hate" secrets. There were people that had issues with how PMBD used to be, there are people who have issues with how it is now, and I'm sure people would have issues with how it's going to be. I agree, maybe we should refine ourselves to a degree, but should we change entirely? No. Does GOS change everytime a hate secret is made? No. Does no one see that at least once a week there is a secret about that one forum, is it N99? The one that does allow underage children, and how one of them was using homophobic slurs in their chat? Do we really was a bunch of ignorant children running around calling everyone fags because that's what daddy said? No.

To build upon what Mamakitty said, in a sense they are being protected by not being here. What do we do when the first time a proven 12 year old photobucket is hacked and replaced with sick porn? Of course we can say TSR did it, but that just gives TSR fuel to the fire of "those damn dirty pirates." It will just give them more of a reason to tell their younger audience to not participate over here. Not to mention, do we really want to deal with those situations?

Yes children have access to a multitude of things that many adults do not agree with. But it is not our job to provide a safe haven for children. Like I said before, nothing is stopping children from educating themselves, if not here, but at SimsCave, where it is more appropriate for minors.

And someone already touched upon this, but PMBD usually is not someone's first venture into the sims custom content community. Just look at our "How you found this place" thread. A good portion of those people either were seeking out free pay items, or found us through another website. Let's pretend we are beginners here, and say we just registered our game. So we go to EA's list of fansites, and what do we find? Mostly pay sites. People who venture into the community using the BBS, are already set up to go to paysites. Many of the more active members here, and even people who aren't members here, and yelled and hollered about it on the BBS. Unfortunately, efforts so far have not worked. But that's not to say we aren't trying to get at least Mod the Sims listed.


This irks me. We do support the free community. Maybe others don't see it as I do, but it is possible to disagree with someone's ethics/viewpoints, and still like their content or what they contribute to the community. Look at Inge for example. Not many here agree on her working with TSR, BUT if she was to make a totally kick ass program for us to use, we would thank her for it. It is possible to like someone, and not like their viewpoints.


This I agree with. BUT I think the direction you want us to move in, would be extremely detrimental to PMBD, our cause, our image, and our motive. I only see paysites using the chilluns against us and not with us.


This I think would fall under what DoW was saying about civility, in which case I agree.


Again, I agree. We usually are not the first stop in someone's content extravaganza, and the only reason I could for see people continually checking here is if they are active members, or just curious about us in the first place. There is a reason we don't have a huge section devoted to sharing our own content we made, or a "community finds" list. We don't want people to just drop in for the shinies, we want them to be educated about the EULA, and paysites dirty wrong doings.


This makes no sense to me. Just because you can modify a game to be an "M" rated game, does not make it unsuitable for children. Parents can choose to not allow their children on the internet to get CC. Just like we can choose to not be a PG-13 friendly environment. It doesn't matter if those 12's have access to penis hacks and rape hacks, the point of the conflict is whether or not those hacks should be readily available to them. Just like here, I don't see the argument as how friendly is PMBD to children, but more as do children belong at PMBD? Based upon your statement, I should allow my 5 year old niece to watch the Saw series, as long as I cover her eyes during the inappropriate parts. Which no, that's not right at all.


Yep. Another thing is, the statistics only show which countries those stats are coming from, and where those visitors actually visit. They do not show the age of the visitors. For all we know, all but 5% of those visitors could be adults.


Again, agreed. From what I know, a majority of the people that did work with TSR already had a negative viewpoint of PMBD from the get go. I am all for trying to change their opinion, but we have to be careful as well. If one person wants us to do A, and the next person wants us to do B, and the next person wants us to do C, then what do that leave us? More inconsistent that what the secret maker already suggests.


Agreed as well. Maybe it is time to change to the beat of a different drum.


Agreed. Like I suggested, an outside forum would probably be the best option. If Pes, or anyone else with hosting wouldn't mind helping out in that department, and if a couple people here wouldn't mind helping out, I would have no problem starting a website that just simply states facts. No bitch slapping or anything else involved. Just a place for people to express their viewpoints, and hopefully clear the air about misconceptions.


Exactly. I view the reasons for PMBD starting was to wake up the community as to what was happening. No other community I know of allows charging to outside content. The only one I can think of is Second Life, but that was built to be that way. If there was a PMBD back in the day, I doubt we would be in the situation we are in now. But things from the past cannot be changed, and I say don't regret the past, but use it as a learning tool.

Sorry for the TL;DR post, but I have been brewing on this for 8 hours. Needless to say, some situations you guys have already discussed and gone over with, but I had to get them out all the same. ;)

And Snarky, for not sharing my beef soup, I shall create SMBD and show all those people how you share ingredients of other soups to other people, and steal soup from grocery stores!

You raise a very valid point; this Phorum exists as a place for adults and mature teenagers to discuss and argue community issues and ultimitely destroy paysites. This should not be made into a happy-go-lucky fansite; rather it should be a place for intellegent people to discuss ways to promote and protect the 'happy-go-lucky' sites to keep the kiddies away from TSR.

Dstar's new site (And the SailfinSims Network) are an excellent step in the right direction. They are free sites that support other free sites. If this community was made up of more people that supported and promoted free sites rather than just bash paysites we would not be having this steaming debate in the first place.

I think there needs to be a balance of sites like Sims3Central/Luina Sims, WNF, and the Sailfinsims Network that support and promote the Free Community and Free Creators, and people who critique Paysites like PMBD and Sims Cave. If there is not any criticism- people won't see the difference- but it has to be true criticism- people don't need to hear about Thomas's extramarital affairs and two homes, or that Atwa and DOT are crazy- keep it focused on critiquing their illegal - unprofessional actions towards EA and the Sims Community as a whole- and on the poor quality of the work produced by many pay artists.

Have to disagree on a small point.  Thomas' two homes (and recent vacations) show that he has plenty of money, undermining his recent claim that he needs donations for future improvements to the TSR tool.  TSR paid two (just two) programmers to work on it, probably contract work, right?  Considering how much money TSR rakes in from subscriptions, how much they pay their many FAs (several hundred a month), and how luxuriously Thomas lives, its absurd and greedy to ask for donations for stuff they haven't even done yet.  I think his living expenses are relevant in that respect.

Living expenses possibly- and the same goes for FA's former FA's and  other executives, however; I think that bashing people's personal lives should be off limits in terms of certain things- it is one thing to play down and dirty when it is information relevant to the cause lie personal financials and where the money from your paysite is going   but who /Rose/Peggy/Openhouse Jack/Atwa/Thomas/DOT/Johan/Steve is yoinking- is not  relevant to the paysite debate and those comments have been made here before by people 

It is one thing to say stuff like that if you are in a personal chat but - sorry to be blunt here but that is something I don't even want to think about in regards to anyone in the Sims Community or any other community, friend or foe. I don't give a damn who is sleeping with who- if I want to know that I will read People Magazine or watch a soap opera.

The issue is that not many people are going to be able to stick by the "all business" approach to fighting paysites. PMBD is infamous for nitpicking, fighting and namecalling and there are thousands of threads full of it - a fresh start will be near impossible for many of the veterans (not that many are still around)

I just registered in order to offer my perspective on the stupid secrets issue.  First off, I've been lurking here for years.  I arrived via a booty reference at MTS, and was initially enticed by the booty until discovering that paysite crap is crap.  I've played the Sims since its first inception, and was registered during that primitive era at TSR, but was turned off by the endless iterations of recolored doodads.  From lurking at PMBD I learned of MATY and also SimSecrets.  I hated MATY at first, but in time, as I got used to Pescado here, I grokked MATY, and now I'm mostly okay with it.  SimSecrets, however, is a waste of time, and I have never understood anyone's fascination with it.  It's like junior high.

As far as 12s go, 12s do what they will, and it's not going to be worthwhile trying to figure out how best to deal with them.  Most will not actually read the phorum, and the ones who do will either stop or continue.  It's not really your problem. 

On the matter of selling free sites, free sites sell themselves, duh.  Honestly.  Perhaps the most useful thing to direct traffic to free sites would be a simple list page listing all free sites, and then to ensure that it will come up high in searches.  There's no need to be nice, to woo, to look pretty, etc.

The issue raised at StupidSecrets concerning ARRing is dumb, and was obviously written by a geezer.  12s and their slightly elder counterparts download bootleg movies like nobody's business, and they obviously do not give a whit about honest to goodness piracy.  To suppose that it is a negative attribute for PMBDers to ARR softwares is mistaken. 

This whole, but-how-do-the-community-leaders-think-of-us issue is a red herring.  Who cares?  They think what they think.  You do what you do.  If there is worth, there will be overlap.  Fretting about image is some corporate, manipulative, excess of time issue.  You don't want a perky image, you want hits.  If TSR Atrocities! and More TSR Atrocities! doesn't convince someone of the badness of TSR, then that person is not going to be convinced by perky pirate parrots.

I admit to being completely pulled in by descriptions of the evil TSR dramas here at PMBD--so soap-operatic, you know--and the PMBD/coconut vitriol concerning the matter hardened my own resolve (not that I ever "donated" to paysites, mind you).  In other words: more jokes about Dot's shape and more treating Johan like a stooge, please.

If this had been a nicey-nice happy flower place, I would not have lurked happily for so long.  Rather, I would have quit reading.

Keep on keepin' on, pirates.

Krumpet; the thing you are missing is that this site is not supposed to be a "soap-operatic... vitriol;" It is meant to be about destroying paysites - hence the name: PAYSITES MUST BE DESTROYED (.org)

Shanow: what I meant by being pulled in by the soap-operatic vitriol was that it keep me paying attention, more so than happy shiny bangles, kindness and butterflies.  As in, I don't think there's a need to nice-ify the peeps because there is something already attractive about their existing personalities.  Does that make more sense?

EDIT: Keeping people reading assists in destroying the paysites by building free site sympathies.  Obvs.

I admit that the balance of fun that you describe is extremely beneficial to the cause but the lack of balance between entertainment and intellegence is what has caused all of the stirring that is happening. Many people here have very poor judgement as to when to be serious or when to be a drama whore... Building freesite sympathies is the same as building an image - which is again, the whole damn problem.

One,  the site is not about the drama it is about closing down paysites or getting them to go free. The issue itself should keep you following shit here because it effects you, your personal accounts, and how you play your game.


Free Sites actually do not promote themselves- they are essentially banned at pay forums like TSR and on the official EA Sims Sites because  of " Non Pg-13 Content and Hacks" or rather because EA reps are buddy buddy with paysite owners. Have you been to any of the Sims Finds sites like Spring4Sims, Daily Finds, Sims 3 Standard, or My Sims 3 Blog lately- 3:4 finds on those sites are pay content- from pay sites- or free content- from paysites (it doesn't really matter paysite content is paysite content cause they can make it pay or donation at any point). When the main finds sites- the finds sites that are supported on the official forums are promoting pay content, and the official forums are promoting pay content- Free Sites don't get promoted period.

 A 12 year old whose first experience is the fansite (paysite) listing on the Sims 1, 2, or 3 official EA sites is not going to go to free sites because essentially the only free content sites  on there are Parsimonious and Simply Styling both of whom have content that plays to tastes not held by the average 12 year old BBS member. They will join TSR and continue to pay Peggy and Rose for utterly craptastic shit - unless they are made aware that there is good free stuff from truly free sites out there and they are not getting that message.


As per why we should not promote Arring content from EA on this site,  it is wrong, it is illegal we should not be Arring content  and  12's should not be either, just like they shouldn't be drinking, drugging, or having sex. As adults or nearly so - we should be setting a good example for younger community members by not discussing illegally obtained software and content. We don't tell them to go out and buy six ounces of pot here- we shouldn't tell them to Arr their Sims 3 game cause the game is shit, or to go to MATY to get their Store shit either.
Yes this is an adult site where they should not be- but many of them are here- which means being careful what we say around here. For another thing- paysite trolls hang out here all the time and in the past they have taken shit that people on this site have said including some of the petty arguments between community members and used it against us. Hence the statement made by a Maxoid   on the BBS or TSR FA on their forum  (forgot which one) that all Pirates must arr their games- even though the " Show us yer Games" thread in Sharkbait demonstrates otherwise. They got that idea because someone talked about Arring a Game on here and a troll just happened to be here. That is why shit like that should not be promoted here period- i don't care if every 12 year old on the planet has a Pirate Bay Account and 12,000 illegal CD's downloaded into their ITunes accounts.


If we hate TS3 that much as a group - we should tell them to not get it at all or to buy it used on EBay or at Gamestop or at any one of the half dozen outlets that sell used videogames legally - not telling them to steal shit from the people that have the right to charge for it. This way EA still doesn't get their money for a crap game- and people are not encouraging illegal activity.

It has nothing to do with being an old fogie- it has to do with not promoting behavior that will land anyone in jail.. It means being better than the asshats at TSR who have openly admitted stealing programs like Photoshop, Milkshape, and their Sims Games. If we don't want to fucking be compared to the enemy we should not act like them. Which means not being fake or hypocritical- and it is hypocritical to say well you can't steal shit from the free community, or arr your games- but we're going to go download a torrented Sims game right now which some people have done.

If people weren't doing that shit so openly in the Sim Community as a whole than the 12's probably would not view it as acceptable - there is a difference between sharing content created with EA's tools that EA says DO NOT SELL and File Share is okay  and stealing the software and content sold by EA themselves -  A big fuckin difference like jail time and a 3 million dollar fine (at least that is the going average for music piracy )

Dstar; well said :D

I also see that if someone here hates Sims 3 or EA so much that they want to promote illegal activities to steal their pixels, then why the hell are you a member of a site designed to support their legal rights!?

Quickly back to the freesite comment about promoting themselves; creating a list is simply not feasable. A good friend of mine attempted to create an alphabetized wiki of every single free Sims site. She got to about 'M' when she gave up; having listed only around 1400 sites. The idea of a directory for the Sims is good, but the amount of work in making it content searchable and filterable is astronomical. The closest thing I have ever been able to get is SimSearch (http://www.luinasims.com/SimSearch/).

Well said, dee.  :)

Since dee already said most of what I would've said (what I was trying to say in between kids interrupting me and pushing buttons on the phone) the only thing I have to say now is this:
Krumpet, while I applaud you for posting an intelligent and fairly well thought out post, I'm left wondering how old you are. The whole "geezer" thing, and the way you seem to think there's nothing wrong with pirating software. It IS wrong and getting caught has serious consequences- your way of thinking is rather 12.
If you really think that pirating software is alright- check out the "Show us your games" thread here. You'll see that most (if not all) of the established members here have paid for their games. The most "pirated" thing asked about is a no-cd crack. And that's only to protect one's computer since EA thinks it's alright to put undisclosed programs on their discs. I use a no-cd crack. I don't want SuckyROM on my computer.
This site isn't about pirating software at all. It's not even about the booty. (Meh. Sucky pay-site stuff is still sucky no matter where or how you get it.) And being known for pirating software IS a negative attribute.

Thanks for an excellent post, Krumpet.


Why don't we have one of these?


I'd guess we would have the consolation of politely directing all those Chaz fans to his Lady GaGa. (unless we take kenmtl up on his offer and give him the job).


ShanOw, if a more civil, business like phorum is what you're after, how are these statements -



- going to help the cause?

We do it is my Freesite Links Thread in Sharkbait- which I have not updated because I have been a little busy getting my Free Finds site going - and learning to mesh, and finding a real job, and creating stuff, and doing my moderator duties at Sailfinsims, and moderating my LJ communities, and playing my games and having a life outside my computer and applying for graduate school, and sleep and eating, and bathing, and feeding my cat- did I get everything. Oh yeah  and dealing with family shit to. I will get right on updating the links list ASAP

What page? Because I can't find it.

Possibly in the same way my quotes are; by keeping things interesting :P (Ok, fine: I admit that this is a stupid justification to stupid comments, but I'm not in the mood)


We have dozens of these; but as Dstar has stated they can be time consuming - other things come up, people lose interest etc. and they remain unfinished or never updated.

_________
Edit for Snarky: http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2515.0.html

Can any of us contribute to this free site link list, once we find it again of course, I know I have tons of sites I know about. More than I can keep bookmarked :-[   

dstar you have a pm

I am working on the updated links list as we speak. I will post it here, at Sailfinsims, and at my Site for people to download. If anything is missing from the list just PM me here or post in the freesites thread it is edited into Shanow's last post at the bottom. There are some sites that won't be in my list, because they have gone inactive- I try not to keep sites that have not updated in more than 6 months on my links list- unless it is a site like Echos Sims 2 or Aussie Topenders that have content that pretty much everyone either has, or should have in their games e.g. Aussie Topenders plants, and Echos Rugs Mesh

Here is a small sitelist I have put together for SimSearch; http://luinasims.com/SimSearch/allsites.txt

Thanks for the list Shanow.

I'm just a bit confused. Krumpet's post, I thought was a good insight and a differing opinion. His comment about it being a soap opera, I don't get why that would be taken offensively?


Those are some mighty big words to be throwing around. Lack of intelligence eh? Drama whore? Explain to me how that is helping? Aren't we discussing this issue because we want suggestions as how to improve the situation? How is saying many people here have poor judgment helping? Oh, because you just shrugged it off? This is thing I think your failing to understand, our mission statement:


May I even go out onto a limb and suggest, that we can infer that from out mission statement we are meant to be assholes with "poor judgment" just to piss off paysites?


Just out of curiousity, I went on looked on the BBS list of fan sites. I will admit, I was basking my ignorance, and just assuming. Here is the link. (http://thesims2.ea.com/community/fansites.php?category_id=1) Just out of curiosity, I clicked on some links and checked some websites. A good portion of those sites, are free sites. The big problem, they either aren't active, or haven't been reached by PMBD's movement. So I will like to correct my earlier statement and say, that Free sites DO get advertisement. They just might not be the sites we want, or have reached yet.


Subsequently, my statement above, proved this to not be true.  There are tons of freesites listed on the BBS. The big problem I noticed, they did not correctly label paysites as being paysites. What's the point in differentiating between the two, if you only list one category?


Snarky, I would assume there isn't a full complete one because it would literally be to much to handle. Which is why I always assumed there wasn't an "official" listing of free sites on PMBD. I do think it would be a nice idea, but putting it all into one huge post, with no form of organization, can give major headaches to try and read through. Although, I do tend to try to direct people to Black Pearl Sims (http://www.blackpearlsims.com/forumdisplay.php?f=334) that has sites divided up by what content they carry, or based on how much a specific type of item was requested on which items carry that item. Also GOS (http://www.digitalperversion.net/gardenofshadows/index.php?topic=2119.0) has a pretty comprehensive list of what items they carry.

I've put a link to dstar's Free Sims Finds in my sig.  Now when I post booty updates, that link will be there too for folks to see.  If folks think this is a good idea, I could see if Ash wants to do that too.

I think that's a fantastic idear. :P Dstar, if your having trouble keeping up with your links due to RL, which we all understand, but perhaps you could enlist some help as well? Just to make sure it is kept fairly up to date.

The idea of a freesite link is great, dstar, but a list buried somewhere is just totally ineffective. There's almost zero possibility that any 12s (the ones we want see and utilize it) are going to spend time looking for something that they don't even know exists. Maybe we could put your list in a more prominent and permanent location?

Also, I understand what Krumpet was saying about the arring matter and he wasn't advocating us arring anything. He was simply making what could be considered a valid point about how many younger people feel about the issue. Personally, I thought calling the simsecrets posters geezers was kind of hilarious. I imagined them in their nursing homes with their lap tops and feeding tubes, hating on us in between sponge baths.

Just reading his post took ten years off my age, and you will not force me to take them back.

Snarky- I understand he is trying to both be funny and to present a more accurate depiction of how kids think- unfortunately as I said the TSR trolls that like lurking here won't think the same way- they will see it as just another instance of the Pirates promoting real piracy. Which section would you suggest putting it where it would be more prominent- from what I have seen most of the people we are trying to reach hit Sharkbait first which was why it was originally there- if it was stickied it would probably be more prominent  cause it would always be at the top of the page but not sure non-staff can do that here


MissBonBon I am working on an updated - organized form of the Sites List by game and alphabetized. I tend to ignore the inactive sites on the fan list at the BBS because they are inactive- when there are very few active free sites on the list in comparison to  active pay sites it is very difficult to re-direct new people in a positive direction. Dead free sites are not going to do us any good anymore than posting paysites. It has also become clear that PM'ing the Maxoids/SimGurus with updated links list may be a waste of time- given how they have chosen to respond to members of the Free Community who do bother posting on the BBS. If anyone feels that sending the list to one of the more reasonable Maxoids/SimsGuru's at the BBS by all means do so when it is finished and uploaded. I will make sure to star any sites that can be considered non-PG-13 are marked on the final copy. I am not active on the BBS, never bothered so I would not even know who the most reasonable person of authority there would be.

The biggest task for the list is weeding out inactive sites- I don't want to remove sites like Sims2Code, SimsDreams, or Simsinparis until the creators have truly closed down the sites and moved content elsewhere- but on the same line - no one is going to want to read a list of 500 websites, blogs, journals, and forums - even if it is alphabetized and categorized.

Actually, I would wait to see if Pes and Ash give it a green light first. Mainly, because then either one of them could sticky the thread so it doesn't get buried. Secondly, ARR! might be hit first, because if your not registered, ARR! is the only sub section that shows up on the board.

Back during the Sims1 days, I remember a "B-List" for sim sites.  I don't remember that many Simshost or pay links popping up there.  Now adays, there are quite a large ratio of Free:Pay, but it hasn't been updated since January 23rd.  I remember that site leading me to the Simstitution, which had GREAT, free hacked objects including a repairable motocycle that skilled mechanical and pretty much the combination of TestingCheatEnabled and Agingcheats in an object for the Sims 1 (Aging cheats as you could have simkids act like adults and vice versa, though the most you could do is to have the simkid skillify and the adult go to school and becoming useless).  Too bad that site got lost in the ether (You can only access the splash page, but the link there is dead) but at least his legacy lives on in Y! Groups.

Should I post the link to The "B" list here, even with the paysites (though they are for the most part flagged as such here) and the fact it hasn't been updated since the end of January?

 Since the topic is derailed somewhat anyways to heck with it. Definitely the more the merrier and if it is for TS1 my links section is somewhat lacking- and I would be very happy to see more TS1 stuff. I do update for TS1, mostly because I still play it and I know that a lot of gamers stopped playing and buying EP's/SP's when Maxis was taken over by EA Games and Sims 2 came out.

I was simply being frank and brutal in how I sometimes see discussions progress on this board. Sometimes users, old and new, post relevant and serious topics; the first two or three reply's deal with the topic in a serious way... but whatever is said within a page or two the thread will be filled with wild conspiracy theories, gossip and slander which; although entertaining provides no substance to - as you said: Improve the situation.

I never stated that there is a lack of intellegence; in fact many, Many of the members here are very intellegent and logical people. The issue arises when the intellegent people like yourself, do not step up from the drama monglers and say intellegent and logical things.

As for the missions statement; I thank you for bringing it up. Our goal is to destroy paysites not to delve into the drama filled wallows of Atwa's love life or the elastin concentrations of OpenHouseJack's rectum.

TSR is intellegent in the way they fight; so therefore we need to be intellegent as well. What does all the infighting and nitpicking actually achieve (Please don't comment on the irony since I confess that I ahve been doing this all day :()

I can understand and respect that, dstar, but at the same time, and in this particular situation, I feel it's a bit of a stretch. We were discussing among other things, ways of being MORE encouraging (or at least civil) to new members when, in the very thread that that discussion was occurring, a new member (who actually supports us) delurked and received a lecture about an issue he wasn't even advocating.

Also, I'd go with Missbonbon's suggestions concerning the list.  -  ;) And if it does get stickied I wouldn't think you'd have to update it all that frequently.



Your "frank" and "brutal" might easily be seen by someone else as "attention seeking" and "inflammatory", ShanOw. I've seen you asking for calm and reason before and I've respected that about you, but I highly doubt you're going to be able to make statements like those on the previous page without starting the very drama you're trying to avoid.

I do apologize Snarky- I do tend to leap before I look- I am trying to cut down on inserting foot in mouth to hip incidents though.  :-\

Yes, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black here? One of the issues brought up here, is to not be so nit picky about other members. Yet, here you are, basically calling members wild consipracy theorists, whilst I am supposed to not comment on that fact? I applaud you realizing that you have been doing that all day, but to fix a problem, you can't just tell everyone else they are wrong, whilst you keep continuing the behaviors that you yourself are smacking down.


Actually you did state there was a lack of intelligence. You specificall stated:


Implying that members are either funny, or intelligent. Never the two.

No hard feelings though.  :) If I haven't been able to have a hard time sleeping I probably wouldn't have even noticed. I would actually like to know if this issue can come to a close? I think some members and lurkers have expressed their opinions, and I just get the feeling that the discussion is probably wearing on other people on the board.

The FOJ has given permission to move the free site list to ARR and sticky it.  He thinks it is redundant, unnecessary, and he doesn't want to maintain it, but he's given permission. ;)  So I'll go ask Ash how one goes about moving a thread...

edit:

Anyone know how effective the "prettiest free site finds" thread is?  Do new people look at it?  It serves a very similar purpose.  I think "prettiest" and "site list" are different enough in purpose to warrant two threads, I'm just curious how well "prettiest" works.  If it's just a place for us to find new nifty, that's great, but if it was effective outreach, that would be even better.

Funny, I had the EA logo asking me to "Challenge Everything" from the base game to Makin Magic.  Then again, after the EA Games logo, the Maxis logo appears (which wouldn't be repeated until Spore, where the EA logo suffers from the Big Bang and it sucks in the Maxis logo). Well, here's the "B" List, which also has Sims 2 links (One of those cases that I knew I was missing something in my post) http://theblist.com/index2.html .  I take no responsibility as it isn't my own site, just was remembering a fond "Friend" when I started to look for custom content.

I still find it funny that EA did implement some stuff for the Sims2 that was CC for the Sims 1: The skilling for cooking mod (Forgot who did it) and the multifridge from CnC creations (with some of those meals appearing in Sims2).  The rebuildable car is shades of the motorcycle from Simstitution.

I do ooh and aah to both of the prettiest thread, but I haven't downloaded from either thread because either A)It's in Part 3 and I don't have Sims3 and B) I've been mainly doing asylum challenges, though I should poke through Part 2 to see if I can find some good starters in an active link.

Thank you Redraw and CatofWar.
  EA has done that with every Sims Game- for instance the Baby Stuff from the TS2 Store - Hope Baylor and Rebekah from Insim did a baby set with a swing, and baby bouncer and play mat long before EA- their set also had a playpen that allowed the baby/toddler to gain fun, and a diaper bag that functioned as a changing table. Almost all the cool ideas EA has come up with since they bought Maxis and Sims was no longer Maxis have been done better, first by a free creator. Half the shit in all 3 AL Patches for TS2 were things that Pescado fixed first and better. It has always been that way and it probably always will- at least until all of the people who are coming up with the ideas get bored, frustrated or are taken away by real life issues, or the Sims tanks as a series.

Very true, very true. But I suppose that "attention seeking" and "inflammatory" up front is less attention seeking than posting stuff anonymously on SimSecret wouldn't you agree?

This comment is almost a metaphor for the points that started this whole mini-debate'acle. It especially reflects the piracy comments but lets not go into that again; as you said, this discussion is probably not endearing to other members.

"Stupidity flourishes when intellegent men (and women) stay silent" is probably a good note to end this mini drama-saga, it outlines everyones point don't you think?

A few thoughts:

Glad this thread went from “Bleh, another typical T$R asskisser at work again” and “PMBD is what it is. Period” – and those are quotes – to a real discussion about issues.

Keep the 12’s and Pescado apart. He’s already said clearly that he doesn’t want them on his site, so there’s really no use debating whether PMBD should accommodate them. The problem must be dealt with elsewhere – like MissBonBon suggests.

I didn’t like the talk about arring the game, either, and thought it rather stupid for a bunch of people who are holding up the EULA as a legal reason for why they are against paysites.

The secret says PMBD has lost credibility. It maybe talking about credibility with community leaders, but the issue is broader. PMBD has definitely lost credibility with me and I’m no leader. I’ve mentioned this before, but it continues to be a problem. There are simply too many cases where unfounded speculation quickly becomes accepted as fact or where somebody accuses a pay creator of stealing or similar without any shred of evidence. Those cases are not just dumb, they are also absolutely detrimental and must be avoided, and the vast majority here are intelligent enough to THINK before making accusations – or to raise a sceptical finger when others do it.

As for the drama and the talk about pay peoples private lives, I’d say keep it. Together with all the witty comments it’s what makes this place entertaining. And entertainment is – also – what attracts people here. Just keep it civil and sensitive – and leave the speculations out.

Dump the 100+ long threads about TSR or Peggy atrocities and allow people to start new threads when a new issue arises. Nobody – absolutely nobody – is going to read through 138 pages which also contains a good deal of off-topic banter, if they just pop in to find out about the latest drama or outrages. And that’s another thing that PMBD used to be good for: Information about all those topics that weren’t allowed in other forums. (Incidentally I recently noticed that old-timer Lemmiwinks posted a new TSR thread without getting torn absolutely to pieces for it. Double standards, anyone?).

The stickied freesite list is great. Let’s have more stickied information. Hecubus once made a list with calculations of how much various paysites were charging and raking in. That should be at the top of ARR! – for instance together with accounts/resumes of previous paysite scandals. There are plenty (anybody remember the Hern Project?), and the information should be available for anybody who wants to do some digging. That is another way to undermine paysite credibility and goodwill.

Hi DoW, good to see you too.  :)

Could you point to some of those? I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, I honestly can't remember any cases where there wasn't good evidence and the speculation wasn't quashed relatively quickly. The only times I can remember are when people were at least half-joking, or where they were obviously indulging in rampant speculation and not trying to convince anyone of anything.

The phorum is not policed, except by its members. And, speaking for myself, it's not niceness that I can't stand: it's dishonesty. I'm not kidding when I say that, in my years playing Sims 2, almost every other forum in the Sims community that I've visited has a community based on passive-aggressiveness, lies and asskissing. That is what I personally am horrified of. People who have been here for a long time know that we can share our opinions and even argue with each other frankly and honestly without one of us then proceeding to decide that the arguer is the spawn of Satan who should be cast into the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. We might be pissed off at what someone says but we'll try to give them the benefit of the doubt and not think they're completely and totally evil because of one post because, ya know, this is a website and you can't hear other people's tones of voice. Also because human beings in the real world are allowed to disagree. This is very nearly the only site in the entire Sims community where that's the case.

In other words, in my considered opinion as a gamer who frequents lots of game forums, and as an internet user who visits lots of forums not connected to gaming, PMBD is actually the nicest, kindest, most civil site in the entire Sims community. The ways in which people seem to want us to change, to make us more like the rest of the community, would, I truly believe, make us actually meaner.

Neriana, the only ones I can find without spending too much time with the search button are two that I know I responded to myself. One is to do with some windows by Spaik at TSR and the other is a case where it was wrongfully said that SimPE doesn’t allow creators to make pay objects with it. You’ll have to search the posts before mine to find the remarks – and after, if you want the reactions.

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2399.msg143092.html#msg143092 (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2399.msg143092.html#msg143092)

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2366.120.html (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2366.120.html)

And while you’re doing that do also notice in the second thread how Numenor gets called Class A fuckwit, disgusting lowlife, tasteless and other similar things and gets wished upon that somebody he knows and loves dies of ass cancer. All because he allegedly says ‘Fuck you’ to all pirates. Yes, I realize that some confused Beos’ comment about ass cancer with what Numenor says, and yes, at least Nouk questions whether it really is Numenor. But it is still dumb not to get your facts straight before lashing out and out of line to use that kind of language for something so small. I know I was disgusted by it. I expect others were too, which then goes back to the point about being civil.

Both these examples are a few months old. I have seen others when I have occasionally checked in here, but I honestly haven’t had the time or energy to comment and enter into these kinds of discussions.

Edited to get the liks right

I will jump in and say that when we were discussing Spaik and her windows, you had caught while I was very busy in real the world and didn't have time to properly explain myself. I even stated in that thread that you were misunderstanding what I was trying to get at Moune. I stated, from what I had read was that her windows had not differed. No where in that thread did I mention that she was a thief. You just read a couple of my sentences that had the word theft in them, and assumed. Even after you posted the screenshots I even thanked you for proving me wrong, and providing evidence. Just for easy reference, here were those sentences you assumed by:



And even then, you just pointed them out. You didn't even comment on them. In no way do I see that as actually accusing her of theft, but I was going more or less by what I read elsewhere.

If you really want to re-hash an issue from almost 7 months ago be my guest. I'm telling you and here and now, you misunderstood me. Again, even with the whole Numenor thing, you still misunderstood me. I specifically stated I was talking about CEP and you just wanted to yell at me "No your wrong! SimPe says this!"

Honestly Moune, most of our interactions have been off base and just been misunderstandings. When I read those threads I see myself saying one thing, and you say another, on completely different topics. I would like to think that both of those issues were solved, since I basically stated that you were right about Spaik, and that if you wanted I would be willing to lay off Numenor. (Just for disclaimer, I don't remember telling him to fuck off. Just that he was an ass for what he said.)

It just seems to me like you feel like those discussions weren't brought to a close.


Yep. I will even admit the whole Spaik thing was squashed relatively quickly. I think mostly even by the links she provided for the Spaik incident, she just proved that to be true.

Real quickly, MissBonBon:

NO, this is nothing personally between you and me. NO, I do not want to re-hash those issues. NO, I do not bring this up because I feel the discussions have not been brought to a close.

I bring them up because Neriana asked me to provide examples of what I said about credibility in the post above. I also mention the Numenor discussion because Neriana earlier asked DoW for examples of an uncivil tone. I could have searched the phorum for a number of other examples that were more recent, but it would have taken too long. The quickest way was to find them by locating my own posts.

Let’s try this: Disregard completely whatever you said about the Spaik windows and observe what happens in the thread right below my comment. Bear in mind that this is in a thread about Shakeshaft’s PROVEN theft.




WHAM! And Spaik is put in the same category as Shakeshaft the thief – without any proof at all, and wrongly as it turned out. That is what I am talking about in the post above and that is what Neriana asked for examples of. Let’s stick to that, please, and not start debating anything else.

Why do I get a gnawing sense of deja vu reading all this.  We already had a thread ages ago now concerning the issue of how PMBD conducts itself.  So what if there is a secret saying crap about us.  Who seriously gives a shit.  Its one persons stupid whiney arsed opinion.

 That being said, we haven't destroyed very many paysites in recent times but we most certainly have slowed a few down (such as RaonSims - but part of that could be because of the introduction of Sims 3).  And the arguments that we have been using are growing a little stale.  (ie.  Peggy hairs being from poser. People could actually provide screenshots or whatever of the actual hairs in poser has a form of evidence, otherwise it just looks like we're just bandying about half baked accusations.)  I think if anything we've gotten soft and lazy.

Well I seriously give a shit because I still believe in our cause.  And I hate to think that all of our time and efforts are going down the drain because we can't moderate ourselves. It makes us look like we're more interested in venting and insulting and childish namecalling than in working for a purpose.

 What happened to Paleo and darqstar?  Are they really gone?  If so, I think we have some soul searching to do.  Having seen TSR from the inside, they are some of our most credible members.  

Moune and dstar have already said everything else I want to say. (Except I don't agree with Moune's suggestion to keep the talk about TSR people's private lives.  It's none of our business, it's irrelevant, and detracts from what we're trying to do.)

Immortelle I agree, wholeheartedly, it amuses me that this has brought myself and another lurker out of hiding as it were, I wonder how many more are rolling their eyes at this thread behind computer screens as we speak.

PMBD isn't meant to be happyfuntimes, its supposed to be a pain in the ass to everyone who thinks giving money to people doing something illegal is perfectly ok. If someone gets their feelings hurt along the way, oh well, to be disgustingly non-politically correct here, fighting on the net is the same as running in the special olympics, even if you win, you've still got no legs. Its not like the threats here could ever materialise into something more, no one can give someone cancer through their voodoo powers of evil super thought waves oO.

The crux of the issue is, whatever is said here, however foul mouthed or annoying or even offensive, no one here engages in 'hacking' and deleting content on peoples accounts, or deals with confidential information in as questionable a manner as some paysites *coughTSRcough*, and no matter what is said, people here are impotent and unquestionably unwilling to harm anything but paysite profits. Whether or not how people here express themselves is coloured with the appropriate level of civility is concerned, as I have stated before, is largely irrelevant. This site is something I and many others reached only after discovering most of the CC world for themselves, with forum and paysite experience. This place isn't designed to be a TSR, Peggy or Rose alternative, it is here to undermine them, anyone can type a quick search into google and pull up as many sites as they need to with free content. If advertising free sites is a concern it is simple enough to provide a clear and noticeable link to a growing list of sites, it really shouldn't be a debate over who, what, when, where, and why, the solution is simple if the problem is site promotion, promote the sites. If people are being too aggressive for the forum then they should be more actively policed, but as I have said before, if the tone of the forum changes too much it will only serve to alienate many people who have both been here for a while but chose not to speak and people who are active members who feel that a fake friendly front is something they don't want to be involved with.

In sum, any help that can be given to free sites by way of promotion would be a positive change to the site, BUT, changing the way in which members communicate with each other would have an extremely negative effect on both lurkers and members alike.

Just for the record, Krumpet, I'M the GEEZER that wrote the response called Pirate Greed on the Sim Secret and I am a veteran of this site. By the comments of the likes of you, I'm a doomed species that won't be heard from much longer, but we shouldn't be speaking in the open of doing the same ruddy thing the enemy does, or don't you get that? We're supposed to have the high road here and by that kind of talk going on of Arring the stupid game, we've lost it because we admit to stooping to their tactics. Honestly, what do you kids learn these days? If you do it, don't get caught and if you do get caught, have the testicular fortitude to take what you have coming. Just don't go blaring out in public where God and his pet gecko can read about you doing it. That's all. I'm done with it. And for your further edification, I'm forty-two + plus two in Pescado years, so that hardly makes me a doddering old geezer/fool about to fall out of my wheel chair or off of my Zimmer frame, got it? Bye.

Well that depends entirely on why they left. They weren't exactly happy sunshine fuzzy wuzzy bunnies themselves, however martyred they're choosing to pretend to be now. I typed out some other stuff, but then realized that THEY are not here, and having an argument with YOU about why THEY left is utterly ludicrous, as well as being pretty damned "uncivil".

They chose to leave and not say why, though it seems they talked to you about it. To anyone who does that because they got pissy, I say don't let the door hit you on the way out. What, we're supposed to suck up to people who used to be at TSR now? Puh-lease!

You want to be at a different site, be at a different site. The evidence is there, and anyone who chooses not to believe it because they don't like the way some posters comport themselves -- i.e., far better than on most Sims sites --  is probably hopeless.

No, you're wrong.  They DIDN'T talk to me about it, which is why I posed the question.

ETA:  I had originally said in this post that I was leaving.  Not realizing that saying you're leaving is souping, and souping is bad.  So I'm not saying that I'm leaving anymore. ;)

This discussion just keeps getting worse.  Everyone just seems to be getting more and more upset by it.  And its certainly drawn a crowd of onlookers.

It may sound silly, but I think part of the problem is we've got a whole party of pirates, and everyone of us has forgotten to bring any rum and cookies/cake.

We've let ourselves get way too sober in this discussion.  For that matter, when was the last time anyone brought any rum to share?

I don't think anyone accused either me or darq of being happy sunshine bunnies.  When did DOW state that? That is putting words in someone's mouth and is a large helping of FAIL.  FAIL 1 (I am going to keep count).  She said she wanted to know why or if we left.  I cannot talk for darq.  I can only talk for myself.  So, I am breaking my silence to do just that.  More than likely, I will go back to lurking after this. 

So, you don't know why I left but you are stating that we are choosing to pretend to martyr ourselves.  That is a bunch of logic FAIL.  FAIL 2.

Point of fact I pretty much lurk.  If you bothered to check the screen on the bottom or the viewers at the top of the thread, you would have seen my name.  I made no effort to hide.  I don't even know if I can hide my status.  I check the TSR threads every once in a while.  I stopped posting without a bunch of fanfare because that is called souping and is seriously frowned upon.  Plus, it just isn't my style.  I don't flail around stating that I am leaving or why I am leaving.  I either just leave or stop posting and lurk.   If you tell people why you are leaving then you are souping, if you don't then, according to neriana you are making yourself a martyr.  Gee, neriana, I would love to have seen what you called me if I had made an announcement that I was going into lurker mode.  So, people cannot win no matter what they do.  That sounds like forum culture FAIL.  FAIL 3.




Yes, because calling someone a martyr when you have no idea why someone left is certainly civil.  I call Civil FAIL.  FAIL 4.

Lumping two individuals together, each of whom has their own mind and own reasons for not posting, while not uncivil, is fucking stupid.  Guess what? I am not darqstar, I am a completely different and autonomous individual.  I have no idea if she lurks here or if she will ever read this.  BECAUSE I AM NOT HER.  Actually, I think I will call her and share this with her.  That ought to be fun.

I am not even going to include this in my fail count, because it goes beyond fail. 


Assumption FAIL.  FAIL 5. I don't know about darqstar BECAUSE I AM A COMPLETELY SEPARATE PERSON, but I did not explain to anyone here why I chose to stop posting.  DOW PM'd me today to ask me.  I have not responded yet because it would take some long assed typing. 


I didn't stop posting because I got pissy.  Despite the fact that you tried to worm your way out of directing this to me and darq by stating "to anyone", I am considering that your post is in direct response to DOW's question on my whereabouts, and I am calling Assumption FAIL 2. FAIL 6.





Who said that you should? DOW asked where I was and where darqstar was due to the fact that we had some inside experience at TSR and it looks like she was concerned about some credibility issues.  No one said anything about sucking up.  Way to set up a  straw man argument (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) there. I call Fallacy FAIL. Fail 7.

I either have no idea or I do not remember why you have such a hard-on for me and/or darqstar neriana.  But if you are going to go after me, please put forth a bit more effort.  This was really lame. 

Wrong, there is no problem.  People here are quite smart, quite passionate and more than ready to defend themselves when someone gets all up in their face. We like that. Now go have a seat at the bar and we'll call you when your table's ready.


P.S. For the record I see Paleo lurking here all the time. In fact I'll even fart in her general direction because she's obviously having difficulty with the whole quote thing.

Ha! Fixed it.  Finally.  See what I get for not posting much.

 
Um, sorry, but I don't see how that's relevant to anything we're discussing.


Is that what I said?  That we should suck up to TSR people?  Please show me where I wrote that.


That's not even true.  Have you been to BPS lately?  Or Juniper Sun?

Interesting... you first claim you have no knowledge of why I or Paleo left, which is truthful.  You have no idea why neither of us have been posting.  But, then you go on to imply that no, you really do know, and the reason is because we're being martyred, or we think we are.  I find that amusing. Who or what on this site possibly has the power to make me feel martyred?  Sorry to destroy any egos that might be lurking, but there is no one on this site that has that much power over me. 

When Paleoanth called me to let me know that our names were brought up here, and that it was implied that we weren't around because of some reason, most likely involving extreme butthurt, I had to think about it.  Then, I remembered there was a bit of pissy little wanking off going on around here, but then I also remembered that it happened, it was aired out, bitched out, and I then thought, forgotten completely by everyone. Clearly not. 



Neriana, when it comes to me, or anything about me, do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up.  Don't try to second guess me, don't try to figure me out, because to be honest?  It's fucking creepy.  I haven't talked to anyone but Paleoanth from this site since I last posted.  And, not that it's any of your business, but the only reason why I talked to Paleo, is because our friendship doesn't just exist because of PMBD.  Clearly, you have some big old hateon issue about me and Paleoanth, I don't know why, nor do I care.  If you want to say you hate my guts, want to tell me to fuck off, die in a fire, whatever, I don't care, but don't dare to presume you know anything about me.  You don't. 


Again, stop trying to imply you have some super secret knowledge of why I'm no longer active on this site. 


What other site am I on, pray tell?  I haven't been on any other Sim sites recently. 

And, not that I owe you any explanation at all, but since you've decided to make accusations as to why I'm no longer active here, I feel I'm now obligated to confess to the truth, least you continue to spread around these half baked theories of yours.

I've been busy. 

No, I'm not going to go into some snide little, "I have a life now, so I'm too good for silly little internet games,"  lecture.  It's all pretty simple, I've just been busy with things that are no more important than Sims 2 or 3, except to me.  I've been doing a bunch of things around our apartment that should have been done ages ago.  I've been working, and I've also been suckered into joining facebook and playing silly little word games over there.  Sims 2 or 3 just doesn't hold much interest over me.  Anyone who I thought would even give a damn if I was here or not, knew of other ways to get in touch with me, if they wanted to know how I was doing, so I never felt that I owed anyone an explanation.  There hasn't been anything going on in the Sims community that I felt any desire to become a part of, nor was there anything going on here that I felt my imput was necessary to.  I didn't stomp out of here in a hissy fit, I drifted away as people do.  And to be brutally honest?  I don't understand why my name came up in the first place, and even morso, why it inspired such vitriol from Neriana.

Hmm ... I thought we’d gotten past this point of refusal/denial and were actually talking about things. Maybe not.

Immortelle, quite frankly, that is not a very smart attitude. Nor is it very productive or constructive. This is NOT just one person’s stupid whiney-arsed opinion. For one thing that person is not just a stupid troll, but is being very sensible about it and arguing very well about it in the SimSecret comments. She/he is also being backed by an old pirate, Quintcia, who actually has this to say:


Second, a number of people HERE are voicing concerns, too. I suppose you did read all the posts in the last few pages and if you dismiss all that as “one person’s stupid whiney arsed opinion”, then that is truly arrogant and downright counterproductive.

Thirdly, the numbers that ShanOw brought up is striking enough to encourage any and every kind of debate about how this place can do better.

Oh, and don’t give me that ‘We talked about that a long time ago, so no need to do it again”. That is one of the dumbest arguments. If something needs talking about again, then it should be talked about. And judging by reactions, this clearly it does.


Bullshit! If the way in which members communicate with each other is not changed – if unfounded speculations, baseless accusations and the tone of the ‘Numenor’ discussions become the norm, then I do not wish to be associated with this site any longer. I will remove the PMBD link from my site together with the statement of pirates being “intelligent, generous and very, very funny” (for those who don’t know it, here’s a link to that statement http://mounes-neighbourhood.110mb.com/PiratesPaysites.html (http://mounes-neighbourhood.110mb.com/PiratesPaysites.html)  I’d definitely prefer not to do that, but if that’s the line the phorum wishes to take, then I am no longer a free-site creator who supports PMBD.

Neriana, I responded to your request for examples. Please have the courtesy to respond to my posts.

darqstar, I was the one who brought up your name.

I'd noticed that both you and Paleo weren't posting, and I wondered why it was that two former TSR people seemed to have left at the same time.  So I asked.  I may have assumed that you both left for similar reasons.  I don't know if that's the case or not because I haven't heard from Paleo yet. 

I also happen to be an old pirate, and I also had something to say in reply to that secret, yet because I am still here and don't express myself like an elder statesman or some such garbage, apparently the ideas I put forth are garbage and to be disregarded. Thanks, Moune, I expected better from you. Some young pup totally did a, "so what" attitude on both places to what I had to say. In case you missed my earlier statement, I'm the one that wrote the reply titled, "Pirate Greed." I post it as an anon because I'm not about to sign up for an LJ account, I don't have time for it.

For your information, Quintcia has only been a member here a few more months than me and a few days less than Neriana. Yeah, I'm vocal. Yeah, I can be pugnacious and rude and foul mouthed. But at least I'm bloody honest enough to admit when I've said something and to raise hell when something bothers me, I don't snipe from the shadows on another site about stuff that's going on here, I say it here. And I don't give a flying damn about if anyone agrees with me or not, but it does piss me off when something I've said which is important and relates to our image flies totally over the heads of the people that need to pay attention to it. Thanks. Thanks ever so bloody much.

Yes, but you merely brought up Paleo and my name as speculation.  Neraina is the one who then went on to heavily imply that she really did know why we left, even if we weren't admitting it.  And that pissed me off, big time.  I don't owe her any explanation as to why I haven't been on this site, I've been absent from the entire Sim community, so it's not like I was over on another site instead of this one.  You were fine.  Her implications that I or Paleoanth were somehow playing some dumb game irritated me.  I don't speculate as to why people leave a site, people are always coming and going on the internet, it's the nature of the beast. 

Just out of interest; are Dstar, Deestar and Darqstar the same person wearing different hats or am I really confused today??

I've been trying to post a response to all of this for the past hour. I keep deleting it. Why? Because what I've typed isn't the answer I really want to post. The answer I really want to post is this: Grow up. Wake up. Realize that the secret that was posted has merit and instead of arguing and fighting AROUND the issue- come to an agreement. Either pitch in and do something to change how people perceive PMBD these days or abandon ship. It's that easy.
Sorry, but there are a lot of people who think this place is going downhill. It's too bad they're not all brave enough to actually come here and post their feelings instead of making posts elsewhere, talking about it elsewhere or making anonymous replies to a secret. As long as nobody is willing to let their true feelings be known, nothing will ever change.

Most of the pages since the link to the secret have nothing to do with that secret. This has went from "Did you see..", to a stab at talking about it to wondering why people aren't posting here anymore. Ok. Think about that for a moment. Paleo and Darqstar aren't the only ones who've been quiet lately. There are quite a few people who don't post anymore- or do so rarely when they used to be fairly vocal. One person getting caught up in real life...ok. Two people- still believable. When you get to double digits, I get skeptical. I can't speak for any of them since I haven't asked any of them why- but I can't help but think that some of them just don't want to be associated with PMBD anymore. (I'm mainly thinking of people who I KNOW are still active in the Sims community because I "see" them elsewhere.)

There IS way too much fighting amongst members lately. Which is a shame. Fighting rarely solves anything. Especially amongst those supposedly on the same side. It's more likely to cause division amongst the people involved- which in the end will just widen the crack pointed out in the secret to the point where PMBD will be the kid nobody wants to play with. If that's what you all want to see happen- don't change a thing. If you all don't want to see that happen, stop harping at each other about stuff that has nothing to do with destroying paysites and pitch in to get PMBD back on track. (I'd love to stick around and help out with that...but the internet is an endangered species around my house.)

Deestar and Dstar are the same person. Darqstar is someone else entirely.

wow.
ITA mustluvcatz.
When members can't agree on a defense to the "secret", and it has brought about infighting rather than A) ignoring something that is an apparent lie and irrelevant or B) a united front showing how wrong the secret is....then its a problem.

Some members agree, some don't, and some want detailed, outlined, post-by-page-by-thread proof of every single point ---- then we should be working on a solution. There is still a cause here. I didn't know this was just a phorum for entertainment, laughing at pay penis dresses, and making sure no 12s overstay there non-welcome.
I hope there is still something new members and members of old can do now to destroy paysites, otherwise what's the point.

I would like to see some of these anon people posting here on PMBD (*).   Not just because it's a more appropriate forum for it, not just because anon posts are hard to take seriously.  There has been civil discussion here.  There are folks here who share some of their views.  If they want more of that, then why not come here and be the change they want to see?  I've had disagreements here with people who have very different views from mine and feel very strongly about them.  Didn't make me dislike anyone or want to leave the forum.  Granted, no one here's ever been really nasty to me.  If that's what happened to some of those people, I do sympathize.  However, if someone gets nasty, they don't have to reply in kind, or even reply at all.  Takes two to forum fight.  And why let some stranger, far away, who can only type at you, stop you from expressing an opinion?

(*) for all the reasons stated above, and also because I actually went to the silly site to see the full version of a post referenced here.  Nothing on SimSecrets showed up for me except an image or two, and I'm not going to get LJ just to read SimSecrets once.

Wow... deja vu

I'm quoting myself from almost 27 months ago but it seems it's the same discussion again...


If it was just a tsr lackey, posting that secret, just to start a fight amongst the pirates, it sure didn't take much.... but i'm more inclined to believe that the person was sincere with what they said.

When this site first started up, I felt it was something i'd like to become more involved in.. but at the time i was still very new to forums in general and, as i said then, I hate typing.

I watched and tried to contribute when i could, but I slowly realized that this site was becoming very cliquey and those new to the site were just ignored. It's always seemed to me, from the beginning, that there were just a few people who enjoyed each others thoughts and opinions and didn't want the noobs to spoil their playground.

I'd hate to see those that have been around here for a long time to flounce because they feel that their attitude isn't appreciated. This site needs their knowledge about the Sims community. However, an analogy for a moment, if i were to go to a new store in the area and I asked the first employee i saw "Where the Garlic Powder? and they replied to me "READ THE FUCKING SIGNS", I'd probably never go back there again. I wouldn't care if the Owner/Manager is an asshole with a fiercely glowing heart of gold (ssshhhh, don't tell him i said that) or the cashiers would fart hearts for me. If there's a chance i'd have to deal with that little shithead again... i wouldn't go back.

Doing a site like this is bound to attract the enemy as well as new friends and it's sometimes hard to tell the who is who. I can't remember what thread it was, but i followed it for pages, before I realized Paleoanth was a TSR defector. I think someone like that should have had their own thread started to bring that kind of important information to the masses. If only to give some of us a chance to say hello and have a conversation with her about her experiences there, her thoughts on PMBD, the sims community in general, etc.

I understand some of the regular posters know all this information and maybe don't think it deserves a thread on its own but... I DON"T FUCKING CARE!! this is supposed to be a site about information... the more easily read it is, the better.

I'd like to know about new shinies at free sites but there's no way i'm going to read through a 120+ page thread to see if there's something, i'd like now, that i didn't want 6 months ago.

I understand some of the regulars here don't like to see new threads started but... I DON"T FUCKING CARE!!

As I stated 27 months ago and as my father taught me.... If you don't have something civil to say to someone then don't say anything at all..... unless they reveal themselves to be a paysite associate and then all's fair.

I could probably come up with a few more things to say... but i hate typing and my brain hurts.

I just hope that everybody can digest the spirit of this conversation and throw out the ugly bits and help this site to grow into a better and more relevant site for the Sims 2/3 community.

Thanks for taking the time to read my rant.

PS. one suggestion... break up the "Your Prettiest Freesite Creation Find" thread into categories and make some sort of graphical web pages featuring the finds... for instance i have very little interest in bodyshop items but I'd to know more about buy/build items.

Thanks a lot for sharing your opinion. There are parts I agree with and parts I want to burn - but I am going to let you have your p.o.v.


I do have to say I disagree with this idea. The site is not really a CC finds site; it is an activist site so these discussions would be slightly off the point.

The new finds thread is meant more for regular readers who check it frequently.  There are free finds sites that are more organized and easier to browse.  Try the one linked in my sig, or the finds at MTS (http://www.modthesims.info/finds/), or the many others out there.  PMBD aims to destroy paysites, and promoting free sites is one way to do that, but we promote by directing people to free sites, not by becoming a free finds or free content site.  Categorizing the finds thread would take time better spent on more piraty activities.  We leave running a finds site or content site to finds and content sites.


There's a reason for that.  There are already existing threads for ongoing discussion about TSR asshattery, paysite fug, free site goodies, and other PMBD "main focus" topics.  For questions, we have Ask A Pirate.  We have an introductions thread, a thank you thread, and then there's Sharkbait.  Many new threads are about stuff already covered by existing threads.  Many new threads are questions from people who didn't bother to read the FAQ.  Lots are "I want my TSR shinies!  I want my EA Store stuff!" type nonsense.  That's why regulars don't like new threads.  However, sometimes someone has a legitimate reason to start a new thread about a topic, and that is permitted, and does happen, it's just rare compared to all the junk new threads.


Those two things seem a bit contradictory.  Not that I'm that offended or find it that mean or nasty, but I wouldn't classify it as exactly civil.  I'm totally behind your second statement. ;)

i can name countless off the point things in this very thread-- let alone this phorum.
A member who is for the cause, has a reasonable suggestion for the freesite finds thread that other members might enjoy as well. Just making it easier to navigate..will not make this a CC finds site.

CatoWar is right - there are other places to look for free finds like my site. There is also a links list stickied in the top of this forum section with a downloadable freesites links list that I just finished. As a site admin myself, I know that re-organizing a 200 page thread takes time that staff members simply do not have birdsaword. I will be maintaining that list, but the responsibility of any site member once they have it is to follow the links and find their own shines. We are not a finds site- we are here to stop paysites from charging for content which violates both EA's EULA and the commonly accepted rules of conduct in any other gaming community, and the links list at the top of the page is all you are likely to get.

There is a lot of work staff here do behind the scenes that you don't see - like cleaning payfiles donated to the Booty so that people who insist on having pay content in the game don't end up with their computers having BFBVS's, investigating the illpaysites like TSR, promoting freesites and free content elsewhere in the community like MTS and Black Pearl Sims, and checking up on which paysites have closed, become inactive, or released all pay content and gone free, as well as  assisting Pescado in everyday site maintenance stuff because between modding for Sims 3, maintaining and supporting his Sims 2 mods, and administering 3 websites and a server that holds several more sites- not just his- he does not have enough hours in the day to do everything on top of his r/l responsibilities.

None of the others members have time to to help staff members re-organize threads for easier navigation either were any of said staff inclined to do so which they are not, because, many of us create for one or the other of the 3 Sims games, and run our own sites as well. It siimply isn't feasible, and not what this site is intended for.

The site is what it is, and if you want the goodies you will simply have to do what everyone else has done and dig through the Freesite Creation, and Free Pawns Pay Threads, or download the links list that I posted and go on a Sims Sites Journey. This is not meant to be nasty or critical or anything really this isn't but focusing on finds here would be detrimental simply because it would shift the focus away from stopping paysites and onto elements that are already present in the community- like free finds threads and sites. It would simply be a waste of time and energy better spent elsewhere.

If fighting the good fight by promoting free content and directing people to free sites, and using free content in your game is what you want to focus on you are welcome to join FSF and make a contribution by moderating the site, helping with finds, researching links and so on.

I believe that is reasonable. I am one who will actually go through the entire thread to find something cool, but I can understand where Scratch was coming from in his suggestion. I really was just responding to the fact that altering the free-finds thread is so off the point at this site....when I weed through actual, amazingly off the point things here in my lurkdom all the time.

But I totally agree with you on the time and effort it would take to do that on PMBD, when there are sites for free-finds already out there.

edit: Ninja'd!  I should really check recent posts before hitting submit.

---------------------


It's an issue of time and effort, not just site purpose.  Do you have a quick and easy way to do this?  I've spent weeks categorizing stuff at MTS, and that was with a simple easy to use checkbox system already in place.  Only got a fraction of it done, there was a whole team of us working on it.  We don't have checkboxes and content filters here.  Would you have someone go through 120+ pages and move each post to an appropriate subthread?  Or label all the posts with keywords?  Maybe you're thinking of only doing this with new finds posts, which would be more reasonable.  But you'd have to get everyone to post in the correct subthread or use the right keywords or whatever.  There are existing finds sites that already do what you're looking for.

As I see it, the finds thread here is for directing people to great free sites they might not have known about.  It doesn't have to be organized and searchable to do that, the 3 or 4 most recent posts can accomplish its purpose.

When I first found this site, about ten months ago, I started from the beginning of the prettiest finds site and went all the way to the end at that time.  I loved that thread!  I still love it.  I was so excited to finally find really good content for my game I didn't mind going through the entire thread.

I think the new stickied free site thread is perfect.  I love browsing through different sites to check out their content.  

Anyway, I like it here.  I think the cause is worth it.  If there's a clique atmosphere here I find that very natural.  People have been fighting this for a long time now.  They're fighting against paysites, which EA seems to find okay, and won't even fight for their own rights.  Sims players are really just on their own.  So I appreciate this site for what it is.  And frankly I've never been mistreated here.  I read the FAQ ;)

Edit:  Cause we're not fighting EA. Duh!

Okay, I know I haven't been active in the Sims community in awhile, and if that negates my opinion to you, then feel free to skip this.

However, after reading the secret, reading this discussion, so on and so forth, I am scratching my head about one thing; since when does liking or disliking pirates, this board, or anyone/thing and PMBD mean you have to be pro paysite?  The secret seemed to imply that because we weren't warm, fuzzy, and overflowing with milk and honey for everyone and everything having to do with The Sims and the Community, that somehow, the alternative was to go, "Oh fuck it, paysites ROCK!"

Right is right and wrong is wrong and if you can be swayed to change your beliefs just because others sharing your beliefs don't act exactly as you wish them to, then your moral ground is shaky anyway, and you're probably not going to be much good to either side. If all it took was us being brutally honest and at times downright bitchy, to make all these people decide that paysites were now okay, then to be honest? They were never really sure one way or the other.  If Delphy wants to work with Thomas, that's his right, but if he's willing to change his opinion, based only on how we behave?  Then clearly, he never had much conviction about the whole pay vs. free thing to begin with. 

As for the secret itself?  If you believe in something, you stand up for it.  People who make a difference don't hide.  People who aren't sure about their convictions are the ones to hide.  That, and people who are too afraid of the consequences.  If you're too afraid of the consequences, then maybe you should just STFU.  I can't speak for anyone else, but the moment I see something said as a secret, I can't take it seriously.  If this person really cared about what they were saying, they wouldn't be afraid to put their handle/name behind it.  And they would have brought it HERE first.  That would have been the decent thing to do.  Bringing it to Sim secrets only tells me that they want to start drama, but don't want to risk that they'll get called on it or that they'll have to really defend what they wrote.

I honestly think we really ARE making progress, if nothing else from the bottom up. My evidence would be in the heartland of the sheeple; the BBS. I'm probably a masochist for still going there, the place is crawling with Twilight and Jonas Brothers  obsessed 12's and half of the questions are the same thing reposted each day in all caps, obnoxious font color and huge letters. But the fact is alot of people on there are starting to realize that TSR is bad. When ever a link is posted to TSR, someone jumps on it and explains the multiple reasons to avoid the site.

There are even whole threads that are anti-TSR, and the Maxoids just don't seem to care anymore, the only threads that are locked or deleted ask about banned hacks or are on the topic of TS3.

Yes there are still the pro-TSR socks who think of us as greedy people who just don't want to pay for anything. I honestly wish that we were allowed to link to InSim on the BBS, because if more of the sheltered community witnessed it implode last year only to be rescued by Pescado, there might be a different view on us. This incident is around when I started lurking here and found out there was an anti-paysite movement.

But again, if there are people on the BBS who are finally starting to realize TSR are the bad guys, we have to be making some progress.

You might be able to mention the Reflexsims Rebellion/Formation of BPS   Ekimsal- between the fact that a whole bunch of people told the owner to $$^& off when she tried to go pay at Thomas's behest  and went and formed BPS, and the fact that a whole shitload of FA's that no longer produce for TSR though they are not officially on the retirement list yet like Cassandre and Linegud (haven't seen anything from them since before I left so am assuming they are no longer creating there) create there . If you can't mention Insim/Walt that would at least be somewhere to start. They are a lot more likely to be more familiar with BPS anyways as it is much more 12 friendly than Insim.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of these threads.  And while you might be a masochist for going there, it is good to know someone does who can gauge the changing attitudes. 

http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/messages.php?&openItemID=item.2,item.43,item.61,item.104,item.41,item.127&threadID=7cad04707615b2223b998ceb383a7386&directoryID=2&startRow=1#6b770579759f17326c51e4c733c510ac

http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/messages.php?&openItemID=item.2,item.43,item.61,item.104,item.41,item.127&threadID=8be17dbede7baf79e8d91fd4da0793ef&directoryID=2&startRow=1#6b6b914086abb9f6d3bba6c4bbd48e5f

http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/messages.php?&openItemID=item.2,item.43,item.61,item.104,item.41,item.127&threadID=9444ba8f66dc61d142284ba2c4834426&directoryID=2&startRow=1#28c3a60f43552c703c8a634f6282a37a

Those are probably the most recent ones.

Here's six pages of results using the keyword "TSR" from the Sims 3 forums: linky (http://forum.thesims3.com/jforum/jforum.page?module=search&action=search&match_type=all&search_forum=&sort_by=relevance&search_keywords=tsr)

I tested that link in a browser that wasn't logged in to the forum but if it doesn't work for you, I can make screenies. Not all of the posts in the link above are anti-TSR but there is a nice mix.

A few quotes:



And this delusional soul thinks TSR deserves respect simply because they are "Original Players". Um, wtf? I have no idea what that means. They also have only 1 post:

Does this mean that they hope TSR will fry for being a bunch of greedy idiots because they charge (illegally) for content when in fact, they aren't supposed to make a dime off of it? If so, nice convoluted way to say it. If not, then this person needs lessons in plain speaking, unless they work for the government in which case they've got double speak down to a science and need to take their head out and gulp some fresh air.

To the Original player comment, and to quote GTA2: Respect is earned, not given.  TSR has lost my respect.

There are lots of sites that were "Original Players" in the Sims Custom Content community - like Parsimonious, and Marinas Sims that have never charged one red cent for custom content. There are also original players in the Sims Custom Content Community that are paysites like  Sandy at Around the Sims that have treated the community they are part of with nothing but the utmost respect both for the players and the creators despite the fact that many of us don't support paysites and don't support their violation of EA's EULA's. Not all pay creators behave like TSR, and a few other pay sites do towards the community.

Note that no one but TSR and a few similar sites  have supported theft of other creators works, alleged  site hackings, personal information sharing and alleged identity theft. Acts allegedly committed against the Sims Community by TSR's employees- why should we respect them- any decent business would have shipped said employees out the door and into the arms of waiting policemen for this type of white collar crime. Edited to also state why should we respect someone who has done nothing but F over the Sims Community repeatedly since Sims 1.

It was more in that the person stupidly said that since TSR was an OP, that they deserve some respect.  I disagree with them as  as I've seen TSR shady dealings and thus they get no respect from me.

A Few Words From Johan About Donations For TSR Workshop Development

I was in ts3mod chat today and asked Johan about donations.  Here's what he had to say.  I have snipped some stuff that was about different topics, and kept all my questions and Johan's replies.

----------------------------------------------

Johan: yeah we're planning to expand the choices when it comes to 3d app support, 3ds and maya is on the todo list
Johan: we can add blender to the list
Johan: so far we haven't had many blender users testing it
*snip*

CatOfQuestions: Johan - Who is going to write these new plugins, blender and maya and such?

Johan: CatOfQuestions: we are
Johan: when we get the most critical bugs and features out of the way we're going to start looking at that
*snip*
Johan: i know wes was/is working on maya support via s3asc
*snip*

Cat: "We" would be yourself and other TSR programmers?  Or the contractors you employed earlier?  I ask because I would like to know what new TSR workshop features people can expect if they give you the donations you asked for.  Curious what new features that money is going towards, since the stuff you already have, plugins, UI, core package code, is either your own work, free community work, or done by the contractors.  So not sure what the donations would be for.
*snip*

Johan: CatOfQuestions: the "contractors" are me and micke
Johan: cat: not sure what you're after but the donations would go to help the continued the development of TSRW, there's still plenty of stuff the needs doing
*snip*

Cat: Johan - What I'm asking about is why you would ask for donations.  Will they give people more TSR Workshop features that they wouldn't get otherwise if you don't get donations?  Seems to me the work on TSR Workshop is proceeding apace.  You're working on it, other folks here are helping test and develop, and so on.  And you already get paid for your work by TSR, which makes money from subscriptions.  So what would donations get people?  Won't development of TSR Workshop continue regardless of whether they donate?

Johan: CatOfQuestions: it costs money to keep two programmers working on it, the donations is another way to support that effort, subscribing to TSR is also supporting this effort

whiterider: No particular part of the project that the money would go towards, then?
*snip*

Cat: Well, the work done by the free community cost no money at all, and they continue to help with development.  It certainly costs money to employ programmers, but TSR already employs you.

Johan: whiterider: no not right now, we're still in a stage where we need to expand in a lot of areas. When we come to a point where we have the basic stuff working fine it could be differenet but as it now it's pretty much general development
*snip*

Johan: CatOfQuestions: not sure what you're getting at here, yes i'm emplyed by TSR and so is micke, right now we both work full time on TSRW which measn someone else have to do what we used to do
Johan: CatOfQuestions: why do you seem to have a problem with us asking for donations anyway?
*snip*

Cat: Johan - It seems strange to me since TSR makes plenty of money.  They employ many FAs (paid employess).  So its odd to me that they would ask for donations to hire one or two more people, say to do the stuff you and micke did before you went to Workshop full time.  But you've answered my question already.  Anything else I have to say would be just about TSR's income, and not really about Workshop development, and I don't wish to annoy Delphy by derailing the thread.

Your kidding right!? The full time programmers who we are supposed to help TSR pay for are actually TSR staff..?

I want money so that I can afford to hire myself to make myself money!

Yeah, if I understand correctly, they didn't hire anyone new.  Unless they hired people to do Johan and micke's old jobs?  Now they want donations to help a company co-owner pay himself his own salary.  I believe Johan is co-owner with Thomas and Steve, right?

I wish they would make up their minds which lies to tell and just stick to them

If I remember TSR's request for donations right, they definitely misrepresented themselves by giving the impression that additional programmers where needed. So why not just clarify and tell people that they actually need the extra cash to hire additional support staff? My guess is that they decided that people would be less likely to donate if they were honest about it.

If you're not being upfront and honest, you're scamming.

Cat-

Have you thought about submitting this to coconut? Just to get it out to more places than here. 

I'm sorry, but having seen that being an original player? [I'm guessing that's what op meant in that case] doesn't mean as much as attitude, talent and how you treat the community.  Not to mention that The Sims was nothing like Sims 2 or Sims 3, when you come down to it - related titles, but different games, and different ways of doing CC - I know, I did cc back in the sims 1 days too.

I agree with Paleo here.  Since that was the weirdest deflection of questions attempt ever. 

Before anyone does that, do we have a screencap of Thoma$$ saying they hired two new people?  Or that they paid contractors?  That was my impression, before Johan said, no, it's him and micke.  I could have sworn Thoma$$ said hire, but I can't find it.  Am I imagining things, or did they cover their tracks?

I remember the same thing - not numbers, but that they had -hired- programmers to work on this thing.

The only statement I know is by SteveB saying that they've had two programmers working on it full time since before the release. No mention of anything else.

http://www.thesimsresource.com/workshop/news/view-post/post/13689/EULA%20Update%20and%20Donations (http://www.thesimsresource.com/workshop/news/view-post/post/13689/EULA%20Update%20and%20Donations)

What I want to know is why they need money to make a tool that the free community could do for nothing. If they need programmers to work on their tool, it shows that they're obviously unable to do it themselves without messing it up.

The programmers are Johan (brother of Thoma$$ and $teve) and micke, a TSR employee.  I too was under the impression that they hired outside contractors, but no, it's their own guys.  They surely don't need donations to pay themselves.

Who knows what happens to a mind warped with greed? We can see some of the results, they turn to mush. They want the community to pay them in the form of free will donations for the free tool they're supposedly making? How is it a free tool, then? I'll use my free will to spit in their eye and tell them to go take a flying fornication at a rapidly turning breakfast pastry before ever they see a dime outta me.

ROFLMAO! :D Now i have that visual stuck my head!

Paden, your creativity when cursing astounds me.
*takes notes*

Oh! I think I found my signature. May I use this, Paden...pweeese?

Sure, go for it. :D I was trying to use a statement that was rude but not glaringly vulgar, one that they'd have to think about for a moment until the meaning sank into their microscopic brains. Guess it worked! :D

And it worked extremely well.  :D

Ok I got part of it, but excuse my Friday mush brain, what is the "rapidly turning breakfast pastry?"

Good if Paden can confuse us with that statement it should be easy to confuse Thomas and the other TSR execs.

I suspect Paden alludes to the cruller and its rather vulgar usage in, er, vulgar situations.  Why it's spinning, I couldn't say.  Perhaps it is the intended target who is sitting and spinning, thus to them, the pastry would appear to spin?  I'm just guessing here.

Simple, you roll it down the hill and tell them to have at if they can aim that well to hit the middle. ;D

You don't often hear the flying f..ornication at a rolling doughnut line these days.  Ah, memories.

I find it funny that Paden has become less pottymouthed since being labelled, even though it is not a punishment and there is no rule saying to stop. :P

People change and evolve, Pescado. They never stay the same for the most part, you ought to know that. Besides, it takes something really shitty to make me fire up and that really hasn't happened lately.

The mental image gave me giggle fits.  I've never heard that particular phrase in my bit of the world.  Must put it into circulation...

Yanno, some of us enjoy a little breakfast pastry on occasion and ya'll are making it kinda icky. Just sayin.

I don't really believe they do, actually. They adapt, they learn new tricks...they don't really CHANGE. A leopard does not change its spots.

Ah, but it's the terminally dumb ones that don't learn new tricks to camouflage themselves so they aren't hunted into oblivion and despite your opinion of my intelligence, I ain't stupid. I'm just silly on occasion. Big difference between the two, oh fearless leader. (Fuckin' meow, man, fuckin meow!) :D

I just find it amusing how giving you an open license to be a pottymouth causes you to stop.

That isn't what caused it at all, so don't flatter yourself, you old shit. I use it when I feel it's warranted in order to better express myself, not to entertain you. You'd best put the ego on a leash before it gets loose and hurts someone, Boss. :D

Whatever the reason Paden I really appreciate your creative cursing.  Cussing has really gone downhill in the last 50 years or so.  The interwebs have greased the slide, so now every 12 who learns to type f-u-c and k assumes that's the best way to make a point, when by this time it's merely pathetic.

My parents demanded style and creativity in all that we did, and circumlocution was a favourite pastime when we would sit down for meals. Yes, there is a time and a place for blunt speech and dealing with some of the folks that have trolled this site, it's been needed way more than the elegant way of telling someone to use a candle to light up their life or their libido. I'm comfortable using either method, though, and finding ways to confuse and muddle someone as they're being told off can be a joy due to the workout you get while trying to fit together phrases that are elegant and refined sounding while in reality they translate out to a crudity that can shock and appall. Those are the true masterworks. You design them so they shock and explode on two levels. Then you get to sit back and laugh as the bomb hits them in the face while watching them react/post in response.

*peeks in and looks around*

Well, doesn't look I've missed much during my absence.  I see you guys went ahead and did the obligatory every 3 month discussion about us being too mean and scaring people away from the cause and the phorum.  We might as well make a separate thread of it and have it stickied and locked so we won't have to have this discussion ever. again.  I want royalties for my contribution, btw.

Oh and TSR asking for donations for their free (for now) tool while implying that they hired two new employees to work on the tool exclusively when they didn't?  Ahahahahaha.  I bet Steve came up with that ball of lies.

I still don't believe for one 2nd Johan & what's his face are the paid programmers who are working on the tool. They couldn't program their way out of a paper bag. I still believe it's someone entirely different & the real programmers will not reveal themselves as paid employees of TSR for fear of the backlash they would receive from the free community for being traitors.

*dons tin foil hat*

Realistically- TSR would not be willing to pay the kind of money that skilled programmers like WesH, Delphy, Pescado, Numenor, and Pete and Inge Jones earn for even the toinky little jobs they do in real life. And frankly while I see JFade and Wintermute as capable of doing smaller programs - to write an all encompassing- massive- do every fricken thing for you program like TSR is claiming TS3W is supposed to be- may be a bit beyond their skills.

They probably hired Joe or Joanne Asshat - fresh outta college- willing to work for Ramen Noodles rather than work at McDonalds, Don't Even Play the Sims type people like EA also apparently does- which would be why so many Simmers have told EA to take TS3 and shove it.After all when you truly don't give a shit about the Sims Community why pay someone else who does - who is not likely to allow you to do shit like plant trackers, and keyloggers in your files and programs for you or the other illegal bullshit TSR pulls.

I really hate companies like that - they are the sort that would hire the programmers and graphics designers from the Barbie Mariposa video games to program and design the next Soulcalibur or Grand Theft Auto games.

Well, apparently the donations aren't doing much good. I couldn't help notice that TSR's Merlin for mac isn't remotely functional, and there's been no news on it since September 5th. So, as a citizen of the community, I want to know where all the bailout money is going!!! Erm.... I mean donation money!!! Gosh, it's so easy to get those righteous anger wires crossed.  :-X

Yes, Carebears are sons of bitches compared to us now. We're fuckin' sweethearts. -  >:(


So, if I understand you correctly, WB, you're saying it's a possibility that someone from the free community is doing the lion's share of work for TSR? I really, really don't want to believe that. If the Kray Brothers aren't capable of that kind of major programming, then hopefully dstar's scenario is the case. Otherwise that would just suck.

Snarky, This comparison could be insulting to the Kray twins. Sure the Krays were ruthless, brutal, racketeering, schizophrenic
gangsters but at least they were honest about it.

New TSR version still wants to launch at Windows startup:
(http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx174/ShanOw/still.jpg)

Well I'm not testing the new version on my new pc, but that really shouldn't be considered suspicious activity.  Many programs are installed and run at setup, any chat program for instance, any software to control your video card, or anti-virus program.  Find them in the Run folder in your HKCU or HKLM in your registry.  My only beef would be whether or not the program asked you if you wanted this *prior* to doing it.

It doesn't ask at all.

Also, what need what a CC tool have to start at startup anyway?

None.  There is absolutely no need for it to startup, unless it has some other hidden agenda.

well i'm not about to install the new version after what happened with the last fiasco. i am half tempted to, but i think i'd rather go without creating anything for ts3 then have to go through what happened to me the last time i installed the tsr tool.

I've been out of the loop, but isn't Wes still working on his tool?  Or are we in fact stuck with the tsr tool or nothing?

Seems the programmers for the TSR Tool are Mikael Sundberg, Johan Isacsson & Thomas Isacsson or so Sims Design Ave says.

I had their Challenge Wizard installed, but after reading this I promptly uninstalled. Does anyone know for sure whether that particular program is safe or not? Also, what about the lots that come with the challenge. There are some challenges I'd still like to play, even if I have no program to keep track of completed objectives.

Personally, I avoid everything TSR like the plague - just out of principal. Don't know if the TS2 Wizard, or the Challenge Wizard are safe or not, and don't really care. Why should I give TSR the publicity by using their programs- or playing their challenges. There are several challenge groups on Live Journal like Legacy Challenge, Several Yahoo Groups dedicated to Sims 2 challenges and more than 100 challenges listed in the challenges section at MTS- that are actual real challenges like trying to raise 26 kids, or raising 15 generations of a single family, or surviving a zombie apocalypse, or having a family of farmers that live off the proceeds of crops and fishing,  not things like lets see if your Sim can actually reach the top of their career or see cockroaches before they die.

You want challenges? Try keeping ahead of field mice during harvest season when you live in a house with a faulty foundation and an elderly cat that has gone on strike for the season.

Roger. And I am uninstalling all my sims games and stuff packs, and reinstalling (after running a spyware scan) just in case. Didn't really want to reinstall everything again, but I think the challenge wizard borked my AGS (even after reinstalling, I could never get family funds to work on any game created with it, it's been happening ever since I installed the challenge wizard)

This is the installation protection, which is removed after the installation process is complete.

Believe me. If I find something I will demand for explanations, and if those explanations doesn´t convince me, Thomas and TSR will behave or face a RYG article  8)

They won´t try anything with their free tools as lons as I am around watching  ;D

TSR now have there own TS3 launcher, allowing installation of Sims3Pack files. It will eventually support direct installation from the TSR site for subscribers only, according to TSR. It is written by jfade so I would assume its safe.
http://www.thesimsresource.com/programs/details/title/TSR%20Launcher%20BETA/id/115/

I still wouldn't trust those bastards with a burnt-out match, let alone a damn thing that installs stuff into my computer...

Anything hosted on their site, regardless of who made it, wouldn't ever find its way onto my hard drive. :D Shoot, I don't even trust them enough to visit their website.

Why does that tool make it sound like you can only install on .Sims3Pack at a time? I just installed everything that has been in the store since June 2 the other day, check marked everything and clicked install. Yeah it was a little slow, but I doubt TSR's program is going to make installing any faster.

And for me personally I only will install store stuff with the launcher, that way I can tell it was from the store. I extract the .package files from .Sims3Packs to put in the mods folder, I don't really care it doesn't have a CC symbol, CC in Sims 1 didn't and we lived then, I think people could live now. And really, how hard is it to get up the Mods folder?

If I wasn't on Linux, I would've almost got REALLY BAD malware on my computer. That whole "you have so-and-so viruses" ad.
Got hijacked from an ad they had on the side.
I screenshotted it, don't have it anymore, and I pretty much posted it everywhere I could.

TSR have just increased their subs. Greedy greedy greedy!!!