Look, I’ve already said more than once that I’m not calling for evidence to be laid out here in detail. But I do think one or two people need to come forward and confirm that such evidence does in fact exists. I hope the difference between those two things is clear.

A couple of pages back Cala confirmed that there is substantial evidence to prove that Atwa distributed the list. Good. Fine. That is all we need to know. Don’t tell me that Cala’s statement helped TSR in any way.

Even further back Pescado explained why it was likely that TSR was behind the alleged hacking of Bluesoup’s petition. Good. Fine. Again that is all we need to know. And again that didn’t help TSR.

So let’s stop this ‘talking about it will help TSR’, please. It won’t.

There are still holes pertaining to the hacking of the petition, though, which is why I keep asking if anybody can actually confirm that it was hacked – apart from what Bluesoup might have said or told them.

And it’s a crucial point. If it can’t be established that the petition was hacked, what we basically have is Atwa – possibly with the knowledge of Thomas – sending out a list of names and email addresses to her friends and asking them to pass them on. That isn’t nice, but in itself it isn’t terribly incriminating.

Everybody who has their first name and/or email address posted somewhere on the internet run the risk of all those nasty things No No No posted above. A list similar to the petition list could easily be compiled by going through a few Sims forums. Spammers and scammers get their information all over the internet every day. Neither the FBI nor the Swedish police have the resources to deal with them all and this is not a particularly big and important case.

Unless you could prove that Atwa had malicious intent and was going to sell or give the list to people who were going to use it for identity theft, credit card fraud etc, of course. I don’t know if that was her intention or if she just stayed within the borders of the Sims community. That goes for WB’s case, too. And by the way, yes, such an experience would be unpleasant, but I have seen plenty of people’s lives messed with much, much more seriously.

However, if it can be established that the petition was hacked and that the list could only have come from the hacking, then you have a completely different case. Especially since according to Pescado’s information it is likely that TSR is behind the hacking. So now they are suddenly guilty of three things. 1) Hacking. 2) Distributing information that has been obtained illegally. 3) Distributing personal information with or without malicious intent. That’s quite a different ballgame and a case that any authority would have a harder time dismissing. I will almost assure you that the Swedish police will listen to a complaint of that order – and it wouldn’t matter one bit if it came in an email from a foreigner.

And now I will repeat myself for the second time:

Nothing we say or don’t say here can do anything to prevent TSR from destroying or doctoring evidence. They’ve already done that. They know better than us what proof there is against them. And no matter how this pans out they will have plenty of time to mount a defence. They are entitled to that.

I don’t think the sheep should wait. I think they are entitled to know what’s going on. Coconut & Co did count on a community outcry, and if you want to use the sheeple at least have the decency to treat them with respect. Meaning give us at least a minimum of information and answer our questions. Also simply to convince any doubters out here.

I honestly, seriously don’t think a whole lot of people would have reacted and sent complaints to the FBI or whomever if they had just privately found out that their name and email address had been taken from a petition and distributed through private mails and messages – without the public outcry in several forums and a great number of people shouting about how horrible and illegal and dangerous this is. They would probably have felt concerned or horrified, but very, very few would actually have taken action.

Paden, I tried to send you a PM – a nice one – but your inbox is full.

Alright, 10 new posts went us as I was typing this. Haven’t read them. It’s late, and I’m off to bed.

WARNING: Long post ahead!


Same thing. You’re asking somebody to prove that something didn’t happen.


Exactly. Now you understand. [Question mark edited by me].

Besides the list wasn’t actually spread on the web. It was distributed privately and sought passed on. That’s bad enough, for sure, but not exactly the same as being published on the internet where millions of people would have had access to it.


Well, if Coconut (& co) were looking to get the community involved she/they just have to be ready to answer any questions that may arise in the community. Some of us aren’t sheeple, won’t be used like sheeple and won’t be manipulated like sheeple.

And give us all a break, will you. If you look at some of the remarks made here, at GOS and at MATY by those who were on the list you’ll see that a fair number are not concerned about it and don’t give a rat’s ass about it. Others are understandably concerned and angry, but talking about “messing with people’s lives” is stretching it.


Be realistic, will you. Even if complaints and proof were sent this very minute investigators aren’t likely to take more than a cursory look at it within a few days – let alone contact TSR and confront them with it. In the meantime you have half a community that has just been used as sheeple. Riled up to take action that most would otherwise not have taken and then told to shut up and just wait for further notice from those few who are in the know. I find that rather disgusting.

And what is this information I should spread? I don’t have any information. On the contrary I keep asking for even just resumes of information that could cast light on what is actually going on here. Read my posts, will you.


That’s plain stupid. Doesn’t matter one bit who goes first.


Are you American? Americans sometimes think their authorities really are the policemen of the world and can do anything they wish. It is entirely possible that the FBI works transnational on internet crime. But they can NOT contact Swedish internet service providers and ask them for information. They can NOT interrogate TSR and confront them with evidence. And they can NOT begin legal proceedings against TSR.

They can ask Swedish police to cooperate with them and that most likely happened in the case WB quoted further up. But, jeez, that guy was clearly in a completely different league from what we’re dealing with here, and requesting and setting up a formal police cooperation takes time and resources.

Also, I doubt very much that Sweden has an extradition agreement with the US because of the US death penalty. Which means that any legal proceedings would have to take place in Sweden. The FBI can’t prosecute in Sweden and they can’t just tell the Swedish authorities to do so either.

All in all this case has to be dealt with by Swedish authorities. Fine to complain to the FBI, but if the Swedish police don’t get involved too, it won’t go anywhere. Therefore complaints should also go to them.


Because it won’t matter one bit. Think! They cannot do anything to change evidence that is in Coconut’s or Pescado’s hands. They can change things on their own end, yes, but then think about this: TSR already knows what evidence could be available. Whatever could be done to erase or manipulate that evidence on their behalf has definitely already been done.


Is it because you really don’t understand or is it because you don’t want to understand? The Bush/Rumsfeld strategy of ‘we’re not telling’ is a dumb one. It only partially worked then – at least here in Europe a great many people didn’t believe they had any proof – and it won’t work at all next time. Not even for a small case of petition hacking in the Sims community. The more you or anyone else refuse to put forward evidence – or actually just confirm that there is evidence like Cala did a couple of pages back – the more people will begin thinking that this is nothing more than a hoax.


Would you just elaborate on that last sentence?


ETA:
PADEN, empty your PM box, please.

-----

No No No, judging by your response I think there is a number of things you don’t understand. Let me try to make things clear.

1) Nobody would have filed any complaints if they hadn’t had half the community and all the anger of half the community behind them. Without all those people getting angry this case would not have existed at all.

2) Coconut (& co) knew full well what would happen when she released the information about the distribution of the list. She was counting on the community getting angry and would – or at least should – have been fully aware that some people would demand and/or take action.

3) The whole community and not just the people on the list will want to know what happened. In fact, I think the whole community SHOULD know what happened – even have a right to know what happened, considering how much all of us have been involved in this.

4) The community can do a lot of things. For instance you don’t have to have been on that list to file a complaint. Anybody can do that, and the more people complain the more pressure it will put on the relevant authorities to investigate the case.

5) The relevant authorities, of course, not being the FBI. FBI has no jurisdiction in Sweden and no authority to conduct any investigations whatsoever in Sweden – let alone begin legal proceedings. Only the Swedish police can do that. I posted the addresses and email for them above.

6) Nothing whatsoever will change if TSR finds out that there IS hard evidence supporting the case against them. They can’t erase or doctor proof that is in the hands of Coconut, Pescado, Cala or whoever else. And they won’t know exactly what it is - or at least not until a legal case is opened against them. Then they and their lawyer have the right to see the evidence against them. The police will also likely have to present this evidence to them during the investigation.

7) The only one here helping “some other interested party” is you – by trying to clamp down a very relevant and pertinent discussion. For anyone out there doubting that this is true you sure make a good argument for not believing Coconut’s claims. I can’t help thinking about Bush and Rumsfeld: “Yes, we have evidence that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, but it’s confidential, so don’t ask us to show you”. Yeah, right!

Cala, thanks. to you, too. Hope your thesis is coming along well.

There are still a couple of pieces missing, though:

Do we know that Bluesoup used her TSR password for the petition or is this just something we think probable?

How do we know the petition was hacked? Do we only have Bluesoup’s word for this or is there anything to back that up?

Are we sure that the information could only have been obtained from the hacking?

WB, I’m not disputing that many things point to TSR culpability here. I’ve already said that. What I’m saying is that you can’t ask TSR to prove that they didn’t do it. For one thing, how do you expect them to do that? Proving innocence is in many cases next to impossible, which is one reason why we have the principle of innocence until proven guilty.

The opposite and what you’re applying – guilty until proven innocent – is what they had in many communist dictatorships. In Cambodia, for instance, that principle resulted in 300,000 people being executed summarily.

I am aware that it is a legal principle, but I think it would be very wise to also apply it to this kind of ‘trial by community’, where people risk being judged and punished on sometimes very flimsy grounds. Every time these ‘so prove you didn’t steal/lie/do whatever’ things come up I shake my head. It just isn’t the way to go about it if you want a community with just a minimum of sensibility in it.


We have all seen the list and the usernames. Coconut has it up on her site. Doesn’t indicate anything.

Edited to add emphasis

Hi Cala. Good to see you again.

I take this to mean that there is some kind of written evidence that Atwa distributed the list. If you say it is substantial enough to stand up to investigation then that is good enough for me. Because, unlike Johan, I know Cala well enough to know that she doesn’t lie, manipulate or fabricate facts.


Excuse me, what? Who the hell do you think you are? This has everything to do with the community. Providing information to the community is crucial and the opinion of the community does matter very much.

Coconut and others – you perhaps – are riling up half the community by telling us that Atwa/TSR has hacked a petition and distributed personal information. You kick up a sentiment and on the momentum of that a number of individuals take action. But only – ONLY – because they have half the community backing them up. If this had come out in some little backdoor subforum at a minor site, nobody would have done anything.

So Coconut and others – you perhaps – are using the community to further you own goals. You damn well have an obligation to be very clear about what you have in terms of proof. I’m sure I’m not the only one who refuses to be manipulated and used – by neither paysites nor pirates – and I refuse to back up your case if you won’t even tell me what you’re basing it on. If you won’t come clean with the community you don’t deserve the backing of the community, and without the community you can go and file your own little complaint yourself and see how far you’ll get with that.

Note that I’m not asking for specific emails and similar evidence to be laid out here, but I want to know from reliable sources that such things exist.

Pes, I’m going to repeat this: How much to you know about the hacking of the petition and how much of this did you see with your own eyes and how much did Bluesoup or others tell you?

To WB and a few others:
I don’t know why we have to go over this one again. You are innocent until proven guilty. You need not prove that you didn’t do something. Others have to prove that you did it.

IMPORTANT NOTE for all those filing complaints:

The FBI is all well and fine. But they have no jurisdiction in Sweden. Make sure you also send a complaint to the Swedish police’s department for internet crime here:

National Police Board
Box 12256
102 26 Stockholm
Phone +46 8 401 90 00
itbrott@rkp.police.se

And do also send a copy to the district police in TSR’s district here:

Gävleborg County Police
Box 625
801 26 Gävle
polismyndigheten.gavleborg@polisen.se

That should help get the right people looking into this.

Johan has got a point, but I'm guessing it shouldn't be too hard to disprove:


Would somebody get in touch with Coconut and ask her to come over here and tell us - and everyone watching - how she knows about what Atwa did. I'm guessing there must be some emails or something.


Pes, would you care to elaborate on this? How much do you know about the hacking and where does that knowledge come from?


ETA:
If any complaints filed are to be succesful this is information that need to be provided anyway to one authority or another. If the information doesn't exist there's no point in filing any complaints at all.

Johan, the list was distributed by Atwa - or CarpeDiem or whatever her TSR name is these days. She said she got it from Thomas.

Hence the name 'The TSR List'. Not odd at all.

No. And if Thomas was contemplating using that as excuse it must have given Steve an urgent reason to step in and shut him up. They wouldn’t want to piss EA off by implicating them in this mess.

Besides, I think somebody mentioned that the petition was never sent to EA. If it was vandalized that seems quite likely.


Oh, THAT is beyond debate. The guy is an absolute scumbag!


Okay, Bitchwoy.

Either way that hacker must have been immensely stupid. If the intention was to gain information about who is against TSR, they could have just sat quietly back and watched the names and email addresses pile up without anyone noticing. Oh well, stupidity, another arrow pointing towards TSR I guess.

Snarky, I’m not sure if we’re actually saying the same thing. The chat between Inge and Thomas took place weeks or months ago and the information sharing Inge referred to must have been the earlier ones. This latest ‘petition scandal’ only broke a few days ago, so they couldn’t have been talking about that. In other words: What Thomas said to Inge is not an admission that he knew about the petition list and that he found it okay to share it.

Understood. Either you would have to be extremely skilled in the hacking business or you would have had to know Bluesoup’s password to the petition. And since Atwa apparently has TSR database access, it could be her or someone else from TSR – provided that Bluesoup used her TSR password for the petition. I’ll buy that explanation.

(Never said I knew a lot about hacking, by the way. I don’t – just like a lot of other people following this, I’m sure).

Would you mind explaining how you find out that your petition has been hacked. I mean, if the hacker just logged in with Bluesoup’s password, how did she ever find out something was wrong?

As for Inge, she’s evidently talking about past incidents and whatever Thomas said to her doesn’t have anything to do with this incident. It would still be interesting to find out how much Thomas knew about the list – if only to determine if it’s only Atwa ending up in the slammer for this, or if Thomas is going with her.

Her name is INGE, by the way. Not Igne.

Pes, I don’t dispute that there is a fair chance TSR was involved in the hacking somehow – if only because past behaviour shows that Thomas & co have very little scruples. But logic doesn’t equal truth. And there are other alternatives to a TSR hacking than just a random hacking.

Another logic explanation could be that – in light of how full of grudges, personal hates and sheer nuttiness the Sims community is – a third party hacked the petition and passed the information on to TSR. To hurt Bluesoup, to hurt the pirates, to help TSR, to just be mean and spiteful, whatever. LyricLee and her crazy minions spring to mind here, as does Chairman Greg and his lot.

And it doesn’t exonerate TSR in any way if they didn’t carry out the hacking. Quite the contrary. It strengthens the case against them. Because they should not have accepted the list. Receiving something that has been obtained illegally is ... illegal. Like buying stolen goods. If there is proof that the petition was hacked, that the information came from the hacking (i.e. the petition was never sent to EA), and that it was at some point in TSR’s possession, then I seriously suggest that somebody involved contact the Swedish police. Because then TSR is legally eligible for prosecution.


I honestly don’t think Atwa would be capable of hacking a petition. Judging from her technical skills with MilkShape and SimPE I’d say her only talents lie in manipulation and slander.


If Inge won’t elaborate on her chat with Thomas, then I’ll take her information with a big grain of salt. I have a lot of respect for what Inge does, but she does at times have a penchant for drama and sometimes a slightly slanted approach to events.

Okay, that is one matter cleared up. I wonder who the missing petitioner on slot 1 was, then.

I'm puzzled by this too and would also like to know when that chat happened.  

Would somebody ask Inge to clarify. And also to tell us how Thomas supposedly justified this to her.

ETA:
Am I the only one who thinks this should be split into a separate thread? This is the only place that has so much information about this matter, but if anybody comes here to find out whats going on, they won't have a clue where to look.

ETA again, because I missed Lorikay’s post the first time around:
I think the sacking of Atwa only shows that she was the one who began passing the list around, and because her identity as CarpeDiem was exposed they had to let her fall. No doubt the list came from the petition and no doubt it was in TSR’s possession. All I’m saying is that we don’t know how they got it. Personally I’m not prepared to accuse anyone of hacking – no matter how many times Pes says he thinks they did it.

I am aware of that. But what proof does he have for those statements? Take a look at his quote from Sims Cave that you posted. Indications and speculations aren't proof.

I would really like to know more about how Atwa supposedly distributed this list. How? To whom? How did she get it? What did she say about it and that kind of thing. Because that is really where this gets incriminating – by passing on the list and possibly accusing people of piracy.

To me this looks like a clear-cut massive Atwa blunder and not much else. For unknown reasons Thomas made the mistake of giving her the list, and as she was about to be let back into the fold as an FA, she thought she’d prove her loyalty by distributing it, thinking it would create goodwill for TSR and badwill for those who are against it. Very stupid way of thinking, I know, but the woman is stark mad.

The rest is desperate damage control. Steve’s threat of lawsuits are probably because he doesn’t know what the case is about, but had to step in quickly to stop Thomas from making any more damning statements and continue to brainlessly implicate EA in the matter. I don’t believe they set this up as a potential money-making scheme, like Coconut is speculating.

As for Bluesoup, I certainly don’t have any fondness for her at all, but I’ve got to say that if I were her I would stay far away from this discussion, too. To an extend she has already been branded as involved in this, although there is no actual proof of it, and I think a number of people would simply not listen to what she had to say about the matter. Yes, it was her petition, and yes, it is strange that her name is missing from the list. But it could be a deliberate move from the real hackers who knew that she was unpopular in certain circles and therefore an obvious scapegoat.

The real hackers, by the way, that we don’t know who are. It might be TSR but it might also be someone else who then passed the information on to TSR. There is no proof for either – unless Pes knows something he didn’t say.