Armywife, thank you very, very much. Those are words that I take to heart. You just made me feel immensely much better about being here. I will happily share my rum with you and anyone else here.  

Apologies again for the confusion and for the stupid 'horrible' remark. I usually don't have a problem expressing myself, but this time I think I got it wrong.

Armywife, I just sent you a PM with the address of my site. If anybody else wants to know it I’ll PM you too.

But please respect that for the moment I prefer to remain anonymous – to those people who spy this forum and report to others. You can call me a chicken, because that’s what I am.

As for your questions: Yes, it is a 100 percent free site. No, I don’t link to the booty, simply because as I have mentioned before I still have an emotional problem with hosting creations somewhere against the creators will. No, I don’t have links to the EA responses, basically because I haven’t updated the site since before those responses came out. I’ve spend my time working on the creations instead of making the site itself better or more complete. I hope that will change sometime soon and then I will link to the EA responses and am considering linking to Hecubus’ Money Better Spent.

I guess that’s the crux of the matter for me. I agree with everything you said in your last paragraph, and I create for the same reasons as Nouk and Calalily. I would like to link to here, but as long as the whole thing centers around the booty and the EULA argument I have a problem fully and whole-heartedly supporting it. Did that make any sense?

From a previous post



Hope that clears it up.

ETA:
I don't know, but it seems I keep getting myself misunderstood. My main purpose has never been to go crying 'Stop being so mean to everybody. Boo hoo hoo'. More to throw in a contribution, if you wish, as to how the anti-paysite movement could get better and gain more followers. I think PMBD is the best chance and the strongest player in that battle. So why not make it even stronger by making it more than just the booty and the EULA argument?

That is absolutely true, and I appreciate that. That’s why I’m still here.  



So did I. If you look at the dates, you’ll see that we joined on the same day.  :wink:

In any case, my main purpose in leaving lurkdom wasn’t at all to tell you all how ‘evil’ you are. It was to put in my two cents about what in my opinion is good and/or bad about PMBD/the anti-paysite movement. Then twice Ensign EO asked why pirates always had to be seen as such horrible people. I answered that (not in a very sensible fashion), but I think I should have let you all answer it yourself. If the mission statement that Doursim posted is anything to go by, then that is exactly the way you want to be seen. So no need to wonder.  :lol:


Nothing revolutionary I guess. I create and run a site where everything is free and shareable except for pay and donation purposes. I speak out on the subject every time it comes up in any of the forums I go to, or when people email me about it. I’ve tried to dig up some information about TSR, but I don’t have enough base information to go by to find what I want.



No, but I’m saying that there are other and less controversial ways of convincing people to support the cause. Hecubus’ financial stats. The gathering of all available information about paysite scams. Calculations of income etc. A lot of that information is already here, but any newcomer just dropping in to check the place out would be very unlikely to stumble upon it among those pages and pages of (justified) Carla Niven-slamming and off-topic discussions. And this is not to say that the Carla Niven-slamming and off-topic discussions shouldn’t happen, just that it would be good to have the useful, convincing information more easily available.



Let’s just get one thing straight, here. You – you do not know who I am or what I do, so I suggest you be a little more careful with your judgements.

I’m glad to know that and I understand what you mean. I made a mistake and you have every reason to be put off about that. (I knew I should have given that bottle of rum to Paden instead of drinking it myself  :oops: ).

And one thing I like very much about this place is that opinions can be expressed freely. What has made me wary is that sometimes those opinions gets slapped with some (IMO) pretty nasty and unnecessary comments. If you’re a newcomer or outsider, who don’t know the people behind those comments very well, it doesn’t really make you want to come back. That was what I was trying to say, but I didn’t put it in a very fortunate way, I admit.

Okay, first a mistake: I should not have phrased that ’horrible’ thing like that. It would be more correct to say that some of you sometimes come off as pretty horrible. I think I said something like that in a previous post too. I am not afraid of taking a beating and have done so on a few occasions, but I have until now been very wary about opening my mouth here, because in my lurkdom I’ve seen too many examples of reasonably sensible arguments or points of view being met with ‘yeah, fuck off bitch, we’ll just string you up’. There’s a couple of examples in this thread. I’ve also said before that I have no problems with Pescado’s attitude and comments. Most of the time I even agree with him.

JFederated, sorry I couldn’t find your post before. I’ve located it now, and thank you for the respect you show for creators. It is very much appreciated – at least from where I am. I am aware that you can make the argument that paysite and free creators are treated differently and logically I can see and appreciate the difference. But there is still a part of me that feels it’s the same. It’s an emotional thing (yes, I’m a woman). As a principle I somehow still doesn’t like it. I don’t like the fact that you have one Numenor file in the booty, either, although I can understand and appreciate the logic behind it. I guess, it’s just a dilemma.

Armywife, I don’t think I’m trolling you. Is this considered trolling?

Because sometimes, some of you people are pretty horrible. Sorry, but that's what it looks like to an outsider like me.



I'm just trying to do that. But with ... what ... five or six posts mostly disagreeing with the general consensus here, I just don't carry very much weight, do I.  :wink:

About the Hern Project. I donated to that and still have all the files in my Sims 1 game, so it wouldn't be hard to find out what creators contibuted to it. Imagine asking them what they think about the whole endeavour today. I'm sure I could also dig out the Paypal receipts. As could a lot of other people. Make some totals. The same thing could be done for a lot of other similar cases. That could make fun reading, I think.  :lol:

Paden, no I just meant that laws on copyright and intellectual property are superior to the EULA. And those laws may be on the (paysite) creator's side, overruling the EULA. Contracts aren't that high in the legal hierarchy. It all depends whether the package file format is covered by intellectual property, and personally, I've heard conflicting - but all credible - opinions of that.

And then I just wanted to say that one should be careful about how much weight one puts into EA's interpretation of their own contracts. In a court case that interpretation would only one side of the case, and the court might choose to disregard it.

I found an old dusty bottle of rum in the basement. Wanna share it? It might do something good for that broken hand of yours.

ETA:
Hand, goddammit, not arm. That rum is getting to me already. Paden, please take some of it, otherwise it'll all go badly wrong for me.

Evilredduckie: The Hern Project was a Sims 1 thing. It was for the son of Libbie (or something similar) who was co-owner of Flotsim and Jetsim and the above description is pretty much what I know happened.

I’m sorry for setting this thread back a few pages, but I’m a little behind and I’m a little confused.  :?

I don’t remember anybody saying that paysites were good, nice and/or legal. That wasn’t NeptuneSuzy’s message as far as I understood it (not including the screenshot here), and I certainly didn’t say so either – or at least I definitely didn’t mean to. So maybe there’s some misunderstanding going on.

But ... Paden, I’ll use you own words: “Wake the hell up and pull your head out of your ass” A contract, such as the EULA is NOT superior to laws. On the contrary, laws are above contracts in the legal hierarchy, so laws overrule contracts. If a contract stipulates something different than national law, the law overrules the contract. The contract – the EULA – becomes void. Hence why the EULA is not such a clear-cut argument about why paysites are definitely, indisputably illegal. Hence why I wish you guys would stop throwing it around all the time. There was an English corporate law student somewhere saying something about the power of ‘contracts’. I’d advice that law student to learn a little more about the legal hierarchy before they graduate. Otherwise they risk getting themselves and their clients into some serious trouble. Contracts can NOT overrule national law.

Along the same lines: When ‘EA says’ something it is their point of view coming out. It is not a legally binding point of view and should not be regarded as such. In any case, in my opinion there are much better arguments to be used against paysites than the EULA one, which is why I brought it up.



I did get that exactly straight. I don’t at this moment remember exactly which of the Sims 1 (ONE) expansions it began saying ‘EA Games’ at the intro together with or instead of ‘Maxis’, but it was several years ago. EA are just as guilty in accepting paysites as Maxis. If they are changing their stance now it is for different reasons – one of them being PMBD, but I’ll get back to that.



I’m not debating the legality/illegality of PMBD. I’m saying that the illegality of paysites is not clear-cut.



Yes, that’s what I’m saying. There is no way to control what happens to your stuff on the internet.



I think a certain amount of people do actually give a damn. I can think of several incidents where someone took credit for another creator’s work and at least parts of the community reacted strongly to that. There were probably even people from here among the ‘reactors’.



No, I don’t think you should. PMBD HAS made a difference and I acknowledge that. I was just trying to say that is sad that it has to be that way.  

Now I can’t find the post, but somebody said they didn’t understand the whole control thing. I’ll try to explain. Personally I put a very liberal policy on my creations. They are free, recolorable, clonable, shareable, uploadable, redistributable, whatever-able, as long as I get credit for making them and they aren’t used for pay or donation purposes. I would be very angry and rather disappointed if one of them one day ended up on a paysite - or on a freesite, but with someone else’s name underneath it. Meaning somewhere I didn't want it to go or in a way that I didn't want it to be there in. Is that difficult to understand?

If you benefit from what I create, is it really too much to ask that you respect what I ask you not to do to my creations?

That’s what the control thing is about.

I know this is already a very long post, but I’d still like to clarify something. I agree with PMBD’s mission, but I think there are things that could be done better or differently – which is why I finally opened my mouth. I think there are quite a few people like me out there who don’t like paysites at all, but who also have issues with PMBD’s way of doing things (and they may not be the same as my issues with PMBD, of course). We don’t have very many places to go at the moment to make our voices heard. I may just be an idealistic dreamer, but I think it would be great if there were room for a less ... I don’t know .. ‘hard’ line at PMBD. If EA right now is collecting information about paysites – including TSR – it is because they have started to become more of a nuisance than an advantage. That is very much due to PMBD, the efforts of people here and the amount of people supporting those efforts. I mean, Nouk’s emailing with EA is great. Hecubus’ ‘Money better spent’ initiative is down-right fabulous. Those statistics that she collected on what various paysites cost you should be put up as the top-most sticky here. With bold, blinking Peggy-like characters. And I’m sure many more people would support her initiative if the whole PMBD crowd were seen as less harsh and ... shit, I can’t find the word ... disrespectful is the only one I can think of. The more people behind this cause, the more chance of success.

And just a quick return to another reason why I don’t find the EULA argument a particularly good one. Somebody has already pointed out that the Sims community mostly consists of women. A lot of us women react more strongly to emotional or moral issues than to legal, factual ones. Which is why I think for example pointing out how paysites have abused their paypal buttons would appal a lot more people than what is in the EULA. I mean, how about assembling a list of paysite scams? The Hern Project, Sasilia and her 'charity' etc. If any crowd of people could or would put together that list, wouldn’t they all be found here?

Anyway, I guess I should apologize about the long post, but I’m not sure if you pirates do that. I just got the impression that some people here thought I was NeptuneSuzy’s pal brought in for the occasion, and I’m not.

Gotta go and find myself a bottle of rum now ...   :wink:

Pescado, I guess different things make different people tick. The EULA argument doesn’t do anything for me. The morality issue does, though.



1. The legality of this issue isn’t that clear-cut. Go back and read Pescado’s last post and you should see the shades of grey.

2. Because – like I said – let us at least have a minimum measure of control of what happens to our creations. I am very well aware that once you put something on the internet you can not retain 100 percent control of where it goes. But at least don’t stick it in our face so blatantly that you don’t give a damn about our wishes. And that goes for TSR too.

NeptuneSuzy, it would help if you would just come out with a number. I don’t understand your answer to that particular question either. Some FA’s don’t get paid, I understand that, but does that mean you don’t get paid either?  :?



Yes. So what I find is wrong-doing on both sides, will continue on both sides. That's sad, I think.



Yes. And that is plain stupid. If you didn't even take the time to read the agreement before you signed it, don't come complaining to me about that.



For the third time: The EULA is not law. It is a condition or a terms of use, I think you'd call it in English. National laws - like laws on copyright and intellectual property - may most likely overrule that. I don't believe any of us can really say how those things interact. So the EULA argument doesn't really carry that much weight, IMO. See Pescado's last post. It just isn't a strong argument, which is all I'm trying to say.  

Oh, and EA/Maxis have for a long time been acceptant and even supporting of paysites, so if you want to refer to what ‘EA says’ you’ll have to take that into count too. Which is definitely what any court would do.


Again, I don’t think so. I don’t feel devalued by knowing or being told that what I create with all the free tools I’m given and all the free help I get all the time over at MTS2 it does not give me the right to charge anybody for what comes out of all that. Or maybe we’re just splitting hairs here. It is plainly morally wrong to charge for custom content and there are plenty of horrid examples of how some creators have abused their paypal button. That should be argument enough to turn people against paysites. :wink:



Uhm, I'm sorry to say this, but probably because some people here really do come off very evil and mean-spirited – (not talking about Pescado here. As much as he likes to be the evil bastard I’ve never seen one post from him that was just unfairly mean. There is always logic to his nastiness) – and that doesn't exactly work like an invitation to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion with the forum in general. I've stayed in lurkdom for a very long time, because, honestly, I didn't have the impression that you guys wanted to have a discussion at all, but preferred to stick to the slacking-off and ranting about various paysites. But NeptuneSuzy raised some good points and she got some very valid reactions to her posts, so I figured maybe you did want the discussion after all.

But, if I'm mistaken about that please do tell me as quickly as possible, because then I'll go back to lurkdom immediately.

Edited to delete typos.

Calalily, but I think it goes both ways. Why can’t a creator just stop making payfiles? Why can’t PMBD just stop uploading files that creators don’t want hosted here? Personally I think there is wrong-doing on both sides.

‘Assume they have control’. Well, yes, but that’s not really very smart, is it? It is possible to check these things before you start uploading. It’s like signing a rental lease assuming that you have a one month notice to cancel it and then finding out that it’s actually one year.  :?

What I meant was that EA’s word – and I suppose you mean the EULA – is open to interpretation. And the EULA is not law. It is a condition. Which can be overruled by real laws. I don’t think it is entirely clear how these things work together or against each other. Hence why I don't think the EULA argument is a convincing one.

I did not mean to offend anybody. I am a free creator. I move a lot of vertices around and I push a lot of buttons in SimPE. I was only trying to say that the fact that you know how to make custom content does not give you the right to profit financially from the entire community. But maybe I phrased that in an unfortunate way.  

ETA:
CaptainJojoba: Thanks! *takes a big swig* Now where's that eye patch of mine?

CaptainJojoba, that question wasn't addressed at me, was it? Because I'm not an FA at TSR. Not affiliated with them in any way. So I couldn't really tell you.  

NeptuneSuzy, thank you for speaking out here. I agree with practically everything you’ve said since page 3. And it has given me the courage to come out of lurkdom. So for all it’s worth here are my two cents.

Obviously everybody has to make up their own mind as to whether what PMBD is doing is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Personally I can’t say that I fully agree with it. Don’t get me wrong. I DO think all custom content should be free and freely shared. I DO think that paysites are bad. I DON’T like creators ripping off the community. And I DO think they should be stopped or at least curtailed.

What PMBD is doing is certainly helping achieve that.    I won’t accuse you of being stealing thieves, because you cheat pay creators for their income. To me that is not really the issue. The part I don’t like is hosting a creator’s work somewhere where they don’t want it to be hosted. To me that is wrong. Just as wrong as TSR refusing to take down a creator’s work if they ask for it. I guess it’s a question of respect. At least let us keep a minimum measure of control over what happens to our creations.

But I also have to say that I find it a little bit ridiculous when creators start screaming and whining because TSR doesn’t want to take down their creations. I can’t help thinking ‘you did agree they could do just that, so what are you complaining about. You made a mistake, now learn to live with it”.  :roll:

Finally about the EULA argument. I, too, wish you would stop throwing that around all the time. I don’t completely buy it. There are a multitude of ways to interpret the EULA and just as many ways that the EULA interacts with copyright and intellectual property laws in different countries. I doubt if even the EA legal eagles have a clear-cut definition of whether paysites are illegal or not. In the end it would be up to a court to decide on the issue.

I do buy the argument about the moral wrongness of paysites, though. It isn’t difficult to see why nobody should get rich from a community of gamers, just because they know how to move vertices around and push a few buttons in SimPE. I think that argument would win over a lot more people.  :wink:

Okay, back to lurkdom. Thanks for listening.