I read about the copyright with EA and Paysites

[derMarcel]

Seems that my name is not really known in the english speaking community  :wink: I had a paysite (things4sims.de), but now I'm one of the admins from a free board (all4sims.de) - we have a donation button, but people don't get anything but a 'thank you' for donating  :wink:

But I am not agains paysites ... I like some, I dislike some. But I'm really pissed of people telling me that I have absolutely no copyright on the things I create for Sims2 - thats why I asked EA Germany about their point of view.

[alia]

Marcel, as I understand it: you have the copyright to the things you make for sims as long as you do not try to profit off them. This means that EA is not going to take the things you've created and add them to their next stuff pack.

But if you sell .package files, they can tell you to stop it, because they own the legal copyright to the things put in .package files.

What I'm trying to say, is that EA is willing to respect your copyrights as long as you respect their copyrights, that is, you do not sell custom content.

[Lorelei]

Credit and copyright are two different things, which I think may be the problem.

You can and should get all credit and praise for work you do.

However, you can not claim copyright on items which can only work with EA's intellectual property, the Sims games.

Even if copyright issues and laws are different in your home country, you still need to abide by the EULA of the parent company, which is not based in your country. The EULA is the agreement all Sims players click "I agree" to before installing the game content.

As otherwise noted, it is also not a copyright law issue as much as it is a contract law issue. The EULA is a contract which expressly forbids users from selling content in any way, whether the sale is straightforward, as in subscriptions that are required to access content, "donation" "gifts," and so on.

I encourage you to share your work freely, so your name can be known as widely among English-speaking Sims fans as elsewhere. It is another way to ensure you get proper credit for your hard work and good ideas.

We are quick to defend creator's rights in the pro-freesite community. Please see threads here, specifically those concerning Linda Berkvist's work (Enayla, who is known best for her Sims skins). Linda's work is frequently stolen by paysites which try to sell it (such as 2-for-u, and most recently her work showed up in another game, Second Life). We believe that Linda's work should be credited only to her, and have gotten very angry on her behalf.

If you ever see any of your work being distributed without proper credit, especially if someone is attempting to sell your work, please let us know. We will help you.

[alia]

Thank you Lorelei!
I bow before your awesomeness!

That is exactly what I meant. Credit and Copyright are the same thing in my mother tongue, so sometimes I accidentally use one of the terms when in fact I was supposed to use the other.

So, Maxis can't take the credit from you, but they own the copyright.

[derMarcel]

Even if copyright issues and laws are different in your home country, you still need to abide by the EULA of the parent company, which is not based in your country. The EULA is the agreement all Sims players click "I agree" to before installing the game content.

As otherwise noted, it is also not a copyright law issue as much as it is a contract law issue. The EULA is a contract which expressly forbids users from selling content in any way, whether the sale is straightforward, as in subscriptions that are required to access content, "donation" "gifts," and so on.

But as far as I know - I'm not a lawyer - the EULA does not 'work' (sorry, don't know the correct word) in germany, because I just can read it after I bought the game/software.
There is a part in the german copyright laws, that lets me think that EA does not own the copyright on things I make with SimPE - but my english is absolutely not good enaugh to translate  :wink:

We are quick to defend creator's rights in the pro-freesite community. Please see threads here, specifically those concerning Linda Berkvist's work (Enayla, who is known best for her Sims skins). Linda's work is frequently stolen by paysites which try to sell it (such as 2-for-u, and most recently her work showed up in another game, Second Life). We believe that Linda's work should be credited only to her, and have gotten very angry on her behalf.

If you ever see any of your work being distributed without proper credit, especially if someone is attempting to sell your work, please let us know. We will help you.

I know most people don't like the way I handle it, but I don't like to see my meshes on other sites even if proper credit is given. People can recolor things, but the mesh should stay on my site (of course meshes can be included in houses). I think therefore I cannot count with your help in this cases  :wink:
But at this time I know only one site offering meshes made by me without my permission  

[Lorelei]

So, Maxis can't take the credit from you, but they own the copyright.

Yes!

Well said.

(And thank you.)

[Lorelei]

But as far as I know - I'm not a lawyer - the EULA does not 'work' (sorry, don't know the correct word) in germany, because I just can read it after I bought the game/software.
There is a part in the german copyright laws, that lets me think that EA does not own the copyright on things I make with SimPE - but my english is absolutely not good enaugh to translate  :wink:

Sorry, it still applies. You have the option to disagree and not install the software.

Also, once you use SimPE to make something, it can only work with Sims games, so EA still owns the right to that content to the extent that they can forbid you from selling it commercially.

I can use the same ingredients to make a lunch sandwich that McDonald's uses, but I can not then sell it to people who want McDonald's sandwiches.

The analogy falls a little short, alas, because the sandwich is actually useful if you decide not to sell it as a McDonalds' product. SimPE-created content is completely worthless without the Sims 2 games.

It is also rather rude, to be honest, honey, to take a tool that was given free to the community at large to create items you intend to sell. That is not why SimPE was offered to us. The creator offered if for free, and does not even accept donations, much less sell it, because he wanted everyone to make content that was likewise free.

If you ever see any of your work being distributed without proper credit, especially if someone is attempting to sell your work, please let us know. We will help you.

I know most people don't like the way I handle it, but I don't like to see my meshes on other sites even if proper credit is given. People can recolor things, but the mesh should stay on my site (of course meshes can be included in houses). I think therefore I cannot count with your help in this cases  :wink:
But at this time I know only one site offering meshes made by me without my permission  

Alas, once you post anything to the Internet, you can't entirely control what people will do with it. However, we could gently urge the people not crediting you properly to do so.

Also, does it not give you a hint that meshes are automatically included in lots and sims2packs? EA intended for all content to be freely available. If you are not happy with that decision, you need to find another outlet for your talents.

As a suggestion, I would urge you to consider rethinking your insistence that people visit your site for meshes. It is annoying to play hide and go seek and have to visit a handful of sites to complete a download for the game. It is unnecessary. If your work is superlative, people WILL look to see who made it, and will come to your site on their own.

Whenever I have had to play hide and go seek for a mesh, I am generally so annoyed that I either do not use the item at all, or visit the site only long enough to find the one specific item I need, at which point I do not stay, and am not in any kind of mood to be thankful that I was forced to detour all over the net for a stupid game item.

But that is just me.

To repeat: you deserve credit for your creative ideas and work.

You can not legally sell your work IF it requires the Sims 2 games to function properly.

You had the option to disagree with the EULA's terms and return the game if you disagreed with what they required legally of you. You did not choose to disagree, and thus you made the choice to abide by the legal contract you were shown.

Using tools offered free to the community at large (and intended for creators to make free content for the community) to make pay content is, in a word, rude.

You are welcome to solicit donations. You are not allowed to offer anything in exchange for those donations. Once you make payment a requirement to get a specific item, you are selling content.

Selling content is against the legal contract you agreed to.

Therefore, selling content is not only illegal, but you can not argue that you did not know it was illegal. It is stated quite clearly in the end user legal agreement (EULA).

Thus, if you sell items, you are knowingly doing something that is illegal.

It is really very simple.

[derMarcel]

Sorry, it still applies. You have the option to disagree and not install the software.

No thats not correct for germany an most other european countries. It's descibed in the german wikipedia article - maybe someone can/likes to translate it - i can't :wink:

Alas, once you post anything to the Internet, you can't entirely control what people will do with it.

Thats true, but not a really good argument.

Also, does it not give you a hint that meshes are automatically included in lots and sims2packs? EA intended for all content to be freely available. If you are not happy with that decision, you need to find another outlet for your talents.

As a suggestion, I would urge you to consider rethinking your insistence that people visit your site for meshes. It is annoying to play hide and go seek and have to visit a handful of sites to complete a download for the game. It is unnecessary. If your work is superlative, people WILL look to see who made it, and will come to your site on their own.

Whenever I have had to play hide and go seek for a mesh, I am generally so annoyed that I either do not use the item at all, or visit the site only long enough to find the one specific item I need, at which point I do not stay, and am not in any kind of mood to be thankful that I was forced to detour all over the net for a stupid game item.

But that is just me.

No its not just you - I know that.
But I don't think that most people would take the time to visist the creators pages if the don't need to. Most people don't even take the time to click a 'Thanks'-button on MTS or leave a 'thanks' in a guestbook or mail it. And I think - I just can speculate about that - that is one argument for more and more creators to go to TSR.
Why do peolpe need to react angry, if they have to take a little time for getting meshes while I have to invest a lot more time in making them?

p.s. I have to say, that I have not understood everything of your post  :oops: Sorry, but a discussion in english is really hard for me  :wink:

[Quinctia]

Oh god, you're whining about thanks buttons?

Look, it's a fact of life, no matter what sort of creative work you do, the majority is not going to respond to it.  That's why, for example, on a fiction site, pageviews are a more worthwhile stat to the author than review counts.  Your download stats are more worthwhile than the thanks button.  It's just a fact.

And if I can't get the mesh with the item, not only is that item ignored and useless to me, if I remember what site housed the mesh, I avoid them.

The rest of what was said?  You're taking stuff given to you freely (like SimPE) which was intended to make items that EA/Maxis want you to share freely (which is why their packaging methods now include meshes, and the Exchange is so easy to upload anything to) and saying it's okay to profit from it.

Basically, even if it's legal, you're still an asshole.  Is that clear enough now?

[derMarcel]

Basically, even if it's legal, you're still an asshole.  Is that clear enough now?

Want to call me an asshole? Fine - you're free to do it. But not for selling simscontent - becouse I'm actually not doing it. Start reading the posts you're answering to.

[Godess_Satinka]

from what I understand, in the German-European ENLA is some times not binding, becuse of something about because you bought the game
(  :roll: my Translater sucks )

Anyway if that is the case, then wouldn't your eula not be binding if they bought something as well?

You said that you know of one site that was offering meshes made by you without your permission. but if she/he bought something, wouldn't that give them the green light to do so?

[derMarcel]

Anyway if that is the case, then wouldn't your eula not be binding if they bought something as well?

In germany (and most parts of europe) the eula is not binding, because I can not read it, before I buy the Software (thats why it can be binding, when I buy software online).
I need to say, that the fact that the eula does not mean that the software would be completly free to use/change. It only means that german laws count - not what EA says.

You said that you know of one site that was offering meshes made by you without your permission. but if she/he bought something, wouldn't that give them the green light to do so?

See above  :wink: But because it's the booty offering meshes made by me, theres no way to discuss that here in a normal way I think  :wink:

I think I need to say again: I'm not pro and not against paysites. Theres a lot paysites out there which are really 'evil' (don't have a better word now). But I am against the 'everything belongs to EA, so we can share everything like we want'.

[Ensign EO]

"But I am against the 'everything belongs to EA, so we can share everything like we want'."

But not everyone thinks that.  Why do people think that those who are anti-paysite are interested in an anarchy of sorts?

The reason that items are being redistributed now at PMBD is because they are otherwise unavailable to the public.  Once the site goes free and the items are available to the public through the owner's site, they are removed from the booty.

Not everyone here thinks that creators' wishes should be ignored.

[derMarcel]

Not everyone here thinks that creators' wishes should be ignored.

In the last weeks I have the feeling, that more and more people are thinkin it. Thats why I asked EA about the copyright.

[Godess_Satinka]

Anyway if that is the case, then wouldn't your eula not be binding if they bought something as well?

In germany (and most parts of europe) the eula is not binding, because I can not read it, before I buy the Software (thats why it can be binding, when I buy software online).

 That makes alot more sense ( :lol:  Did I mention my translator sucks? )

In that case, Does this apply to only when you can't find a eula at all?
( No website or flyer or word of mouth even.  nothing. zilp. zitch. nada. )

or you can find a enla at your leisure? ( As  in a poster with the eula on it next to the software )

I need to say, that the fact that the eula does not mean that the software would be completely free to use/change. It only means that german laws count - not what EA says.

  :?:  I can't quite understand what you mean

You said that you know of one site that was offering meshes made by you without your permission. but if she/he bought something, wouldn't that give them the green light to do so?[/size]

See above  :wink: But because it's the booty offering meshes made by me, theres no way to discuss that here in a normal way I think  :wink:

:lol:  Fair enough

I think I need to say again: I'm not pro and not against paysites. Theres a lot paysites out there which are really 'evil' (don't have a better word now). But I am against the 'everything belongs to EA, so we can share everything like we want'.

It's not so much the objects, but the file format ( Made by Ea games ) that you put them in. The meshes, and the textures are yours
( provided that you made them ) but a lot of coding goes in that package file to make it actually work,

Think of it this way
If I have a computer, And I create a theme for it
( the desktop, the folder thumbnails, a custom cursor that sort of thing )

Yes, the theme is mine. however, I cannot claim the whole computer as mine, nor sell it as such.

If I didn't create the coding from the ground up that lets me make themes in the first place, or anything like that

then how can I claim that the computer is completely mine, and that I have the right do what ever I want  with,  against enla ( at lease in my country ) of the people that did do all the coding?