TSR: IN UR COMPUTER, VIRUSIN' UR FILES!

[minionsRmine]

While I agree with you, dstar, about being kind to others, there are folks here who do not follow the same, and I guess they're just not likely to change. Just like you won't find me replying & skewering folks who make a WCIF thread, you're also not going to see me suggest to others that they be nice to 12s. I guess I just feel like people are going to be who they are. If people don't like it, they don't have to read here.

[dstar]

It should not end up that we end up as the face of the free community but it often does- 12's shouldn't be here- but then as I have already said- the Sims w/o CC is a PG-13 game- with CC it can often be an M Rated game depending on what sites the little darlings shop for their CC hence the 12's should not be playing Sims at all


They should be at places like MTS- or BPS - the thing is they often try to find the pay content they like for free and they end up here rather than at Sims Cave because the Booty is more well known and has more stuff  Parsimonious and Simply Styling  are pretty much the only free sites mentioned on the BBS,- which are lovely sites but don't have the type of content a lot of teens seem to want. Many teens go for the type of high fashion photoskinned stuff promoted on sites like TSR, Rose and Peggy rather than the elegant home decor posted at Simply Styling, or the Alternative/Historical Content at Parsimonious.


Believe me- I know not everyone is going to change- you can't force people to change. Some people will, some people won't thats up to them. it is also not a matter of being nice, or not nice- it is a matter of - we have enough real trolls and paysite representatives show up here that those who enjoy handing out verbal smackdowns can do so on a frequent basis without smacking people who are willing to listen to what the Paysite Debate is about or who are here for the Booty - but who just happened to ask a dumbass noob question in the wrong place  on the wrong day because they are 12's and 12's don't read directions or FAQ's. It's a waste of time and energy on our part that could  be refocused elsewhere.

[SnarkyShark]

Snarky- these are their actual statistics for downloads, page views, and demographics http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesimsresource.com.

Thanks for the link, dstar. It's surprising for me to see the recent upswing in their numbers. Though some of that can probably be attributed to the influx of new simmers after the release of Sims3, and also to the fact that TSR is all but officially endorsed by EA (a disadvantage we've always been hard pressed to overcome), it's still discomforting to see.

I'd also like to clarify my thoughts regarding the secret. The author of the secret was saying that we've lost credibility among community LEADERS who were then defecting to TSR's camp and (it can be inferred) taking a big chunk of the community with them. I totally disagree with the author blaming us for that. Many of those leaders have held a dim view of PMBD from way back.

You have, for instance,  Kate from Parsimonious (one of the only site owners I've ever gushed publicly about), a free site owner who has referred to TSR as her "friends" and who (if I recall correctly) made a pretty negative comment about Pescado once before. You also have Delphi, a leader with massive sway, who came storming over here when we refused to release Numenor's tanning bed from the booty, and who apparently refuses to believe that TSR hacked Buggybooz's account (after discussing the matter with Thomass, of course). How do you build a relationship with people who A) Don't like you, and B) Don't believe you?

They've had the same access to the same information that we have had, and we've seen more than one instance of some of them coming here and discounting either some or all of it (Inge and Delphy are two that come to mind). That they choose to discount coconut is not something we at PMBD can be held accountable for no matter how much the author wishes that were the case. So yes, contrary to what the secret poster is saying, it may very well be a case of community LEADERS burying their heads in the sand when it comes to TSR's proven unethical behavior.

Whether or not changing our mind set will increase our standing within the community is something else entirely, but it's definitely something worth discussing.

[dstar]

I think some of us already have- and I do rather like the idea (if I had the time) of a pro-Freesite site that addressed the issue in such a way that the 12's coming over from TSR and the BBS could absorb and understand the facts, without the environment that we have here- this is a site for adults- geared toward adults-  as is GOS, as is Sims Cave, and while some younger  members like Antagonist01 can handle themselves-  on these sites others cannot-while still being interested in the pay vs free debate and wanting to do something against paysites. .

While yes we do give the paysites butthurt with the Booty, as do Sims Cave,  and GOS by sharing pay content freely.  I think we need to have some sort of voice disconnected with content sharing  because while it is a great idea sometimes it hurts as well as helps because we end up getting new members only interested in the stuff - instead of new members interested in the cause. While this is acceptable at GOS because they are a  CC Site not an anti-paysite site it  doesn't do PMBD or Sims Cave that much good- yes they aren't paying for it,but, they still are not using and exploring great free site content by replacing Rose and Peggy with Anto and Agustin and SimCredible with Sims Control and Luina Sims and  they are still  using  custom content from paysites

I think in terms of having lost credibility with the community leaders- I don't think we had it  from the get go. There are some pretty damned good reasons why the original MTS split apart one of which was different goals and  personalities on the parts of Delphy, Pescado Numenor, and Pete and Inge Jones as well as some of the other old timers.

 To be honest, I have never seen Kate at Parsimonious as much of a community leader- she may have been in the TS1 days when her Site Network along with TSR were pretty much the biggest games in town- but I have not really seen her much of a role in the community other than to support EA - which is acceptable from a Free Site owner- no matter our complaints about game quality- no EA =no Sims since Maxis tanked, and to put forth legitimate gripes when people started bitching about when she is going to start making " real" TS3 content. I actually don't see much of anyone as a leader in the community anymore-some have left, some have stuck their heads in the sand about their own fault in the actions of the pay community, , some are still around but tied up with real life issues, or are busy with their own sites and own stuff, some simply no longer give a shit. Those that are left can't do everything- especially since many of them are juggling running multiple sites, creating, and having lives outside the Sims like spouses, and sprogs, and jobs where they make money.


Many people are at fault for the current situation in the Sims Community- not just PMBD, not just community leaders, not just creators and community members. Unlike in other gaming communities where paysites were never allowed to gain a foothold to begin with because the Community said NO!!! from the start- did not buy content from these sites, and had  the full support of the Game Designer and Manufacturer when it came to being anti-pay. The Sims Community has never had that, not even when it was Maxis.

We did not say No Paysites from the start- We did not have the backup of EA once we did start saying NO Paysites! because by that point paysite owners like Thomas, Peggy and Rose and befriended EA's Reps and got their foot in the door with the CEO's, and it was to late to nip paysites in the bud as a whole in one fell swoop at that point.

 Don't get me wrong- I still support free sites and am anti - pay - just the lack of activism and Maxis/EA support from day 1 of Sims 1 has made our job that much harder.

Any other gaming community whether you are talking Morrowind, or Zoo Tycoon- the first paysite popped up the community said No and immediately reported them to the company making the game, and the company would shut them down right way. When I played ZT I only remember ever seeing one paysite- and Microsoft had that one shutdown due to community complaints within a month- they just pulled their copyright permission (without which no CC since you don't have their permission to use their code, their software, their characters, or their logo anywhere on your site)


 If PMBD has started back in the Sims 1 days when the very first paysites started up I think that we would be looking at a much different picture today. Had the community leaders put their feet down in the beginning- we would be seeing a different picture today. Had the community refused to support paysites at all from the beginning it would be a different story today. It is the whole for the want of a nail the horse was lost, for the want of horse the soldier was lost, for the want of a soldier the army was lost, for the want of an army the war was lost scenario.


 And it really fuckin sucks because of this anyone who is simply a community member, or creator, on either side is getting the shit end of the stick, free community members by being disrespected, having sites hacked, meshes stolen and personal info shared, and paysite members by being charged for what they should not be charged for, or being treated like sweatshop labor and expected to produce more  in a week than people who employed as " Real Graphic Artists" are expected to produce in a month (their choice but still wrong on the part of paysite owners)

[redraw]

That and I believe that not many "non-casual" gamers joined the Sims community when it was first released.  Way when I first played the first Sims game, I didn't know much about CC for ANY game.  In fact, the Sims was the first modable game that I played.  Games that I remember playing before hand have very little to no customization in it.  Games included X-Wing, the original 3D-Ultra pinball, and SimCity2K.  I still remember SimsHost and the bad taste that left in my mouth.  I dunno why to this very day why I thought TSR was more reputable than SH, but my view on them have made a 180.

Dstar, even if I seem to join in with the pointing and laughing with the occasional headdesking at the Ugly Paysite creation thread, I firmly believe that deadlines COULD factor into why paysite creations, at large, look worse than their free counterparts.

And Snarkyshark, I snorted to your comment towards me.

[dstar]

When Sims 1 first came out there really wasn't much modding for video games at all- That may be why paysites managed to get entrenched in our community when they have not in other video gaming communities.

[dietofworms]

I think what your going for diet, is to be civil, yes?

That's exactly what I meant. 

Neriana, you have a pm.

Moune, it's great to see you again.

[birdsdaword]

i'm a new PMBD member. Not new to the Sims community or to disliking paysites.
But I am my own person, and have my own ways of going about the "destroying of paysites". But I still lurk here.
I don't download any pay stuff from the booty 'cause I don't think its right. I just don't give paysites my money.
I go to a lot of free sites that have donation sets, I figured when 90% of your site is high- quality free CC, and you give people who donate to help you keep the site running the other 10% of things that you think is better (but is not all the time)--- it was all good.
Not until I read through threads here did I see that "pay is pay", and sites like Liana or Raon where on the sh#t list. Do I think they are the same as TSR or sites where nothing is free or the free stuff is crap put on the site to lure you into the pay crap?? Not really. But that's just me. I may be wrong, but I'm not above seeing where PMBD is coming from in there reasoning.

I also don't have a problem with anonymous posts b/c if the ish that is posted is valid...a name or face matters none. I think that Sims secret was valid. It gave an anon opinion on PMBD-- i didn't say a true opinion, but a valid one. I wasn't written by a 12. And it may have been written by someone who gives a darn about the cause. Not everyone will like how PMBD is run, but this is not the only site to come to if u don't like pay-crap. It's not PMBD or TSR...there is a middle ground, and if u don't like Pescado's rules, then this isn't your place.

I agree with dstar...if you exclude 12s or huggety peeps from this site or the cause, you have very little pull. 12s and huggety peeps are now a large part of the Sims community. That's like trying to destroy McDonalds and not wanting overweight people or people who like little toys with their food apart of your movement...you won't get very far. 12s are 12s. They usually post first, ask questions all the time, never read the answers, and complain about meanies too much...but they also but Sims content from paysites like its candy-coated. But they need the info. I remember being 12 (ahhh!!!) and I may have done some stupid 12 ish, but I was smart enough to understand English and read and such, so I would definitely be here or at MTS if I was given the info in a decent way.

Don't really know what was happening here in 2006, 07, 08 so take my words as watered down rum if need be. 

[MamaKitty]

Well its a lost cause to try and make them (comunity leaders or comunity) like Pescado.  Pescado will be Pescado and frankly I think thats a good thing.  It gives him the room needed to get crap done when the midden hits the windmill.  They don't like him but they respect his ablities and know that when the chips are down, the game completely fubared, and things like Walt monsters rear up their ugly heads, he's there and probably already has 3 or 4 contingency plans to deal with it.  As far as the rest of us go though, well we're just his evil little minions who have little to no crediblity in their eyes.  I'm not saying that we really are minions, personally I think ordering us around is probably like trying to herd cats, but thats how they tend to look at us.  

Something like a PMBD lite might be a good idea.  A place to acclimate/integrate(?) new users and users who've realized paysites are crappy but dont know what to do about it to the free comunity.  "free stuff pwns paycrap" would be a great idea to add into a place like that.  But not just this dress looks better than the meatslab dress.  Or this Brittney looks better than Chaz's new Brittney.  Start hitting them with the stuff they really fail at like:  Look at this lovely working carousel they have at MTS2 the closest TSR has is a picture of a carousel.  Best freesite finds, great mods finds, monthly featured free creators, and catorgorizing finds so new players/members have an easier time finding the type of item they're looking for.  A definative place to point the 12's to where they can gush and squeee and get involved on a level they can handle.  And still be considered (at least among themselves) pirates.  Because some of them really seem to want that.  Although having it so that Pescado can come in and trounce them if he feels like it seems like a good idea.  They'll need to get used to what the mastermind of the movement is like if they intend to take their pirate work to the next level and come here.  They should be reasonably able to censor themselves.  Member A(just signed up) will get repremanded by members B-Z(who have been there for a while) for screaming they want such and such TSR thingie in the booty cause now its going to take even longer for said thingie to get there(sort of like here but hopefully "nicer"); or even promote freesites by saying why would you want that thing this one's much shinier.  

That being said feel free to poke sticks at the idea.  I like the people here, and the site.  And I dont want to see them go away just because some other people think all of us as individuals here should change and be the fairy godmothers of the simming comunity.  Gods know I'm not up for that kind of thing, I've been out of "bibbity bobbity boo" for years.

[dstar]

 MamaKitty, I am attempting to do that with my site- people can come by and check it out if they want. I don't mind 12's (I work in technical writing and copy-editing - stupid questions and having to repeat instructions are party of my daily work) and would be willing to field questions about the paysite debate at my site- though not willing to host free shinies unless they are free shinies made by free community members. If other people choose to share their toys that is one thing- I just don't support sharing their toys without their express permission to be cool - and having it available only continues to promote pay content over free.


But I offer a free finds site and have a huge links library where the kiddies can find any kind of shinies they want from Photoksinned Sims by Stefan@MTS to replicas of the Gossip Girl wardrobes from Fashion Queen. I actually already do many of the features suggested in your post, free finds, pay vs free comparisons, creator profiles/featured free creators, and Oldies but Goodies in order to promote favorite CC or Cc that should be in everyones game like FWay, Leesester, and TBudgett's Maxis Wndows Expansion Sets, or the plants from Aussie Topenders

[MamaKitty]

Sorry for being unclear, I wasn't suggesting hosting shinies just posting links and pics of them.  Didn't mean to cause that confusion.  If you're already doing and willing to continue I guess the best question would be how to get them to you with minimum frayed nerves on both sides and ideally how to get them to go there first and foremost.  We need a plan for this.  And a good one too.  That is if the rest of us are willing to do this? 

Havent had the chance to go digging around in your site just yet.  But I have been meaning to do so. 

[dstar]

If they come here asking about something that is not in the Booty - simply say - well if we do not have it right now it may be awhile- as the FAQ says we should do- redirect them to the FAQ- which will tell them all about paysites - and give them a link to your favorite 100% free CC site, finds site- or free community forum. I have found -that once you show someone Adele's stuff they won't want Cashcraft anymore- the same goes for showing them Agustin, or Anto's Hair if they come looking for Peggy or Rose hair that isn't freely available. Some people here already do this- Rum Nate and Dr House do so all the time when new people post in AAP or Sims 3 over in Sharkbait.

[kenmtl]

Ok here's my opinion on whole situation. I zero problem playing nice with noobs. It's really doesn't even register on my care radar. I can pat you on the head or punch you in the bewb, it's all the same to me. So if that's what takes then fine, we'll do that. I'll even stand at the door in a cocktail dress saying "Bienvenue". However I also believe that we are not the alternative to TSR. We are not a social phorum, that's not our purpose. I have no problem directing people to MTS or IS or BPS anywhere else that might be more appropriate for them.

My problem is the idea that a healthy and strong free community is entirely our responsibility or that the success of TSR is our failure. I don't accept that. There's an entire free community out there who benefit greatly by having the players at their sites and not at TSR. It's not our responsibility to make that happen. We can help by directing them, but someone else needs to do the work to make sure they stay. We're here to dispense information, what happens after that depends on whether anyone else cares or not. A healthy and growing free community is the responsibility of everyone who's a part of it. If you don't care or don't want to deal with it, then why should we do that for you.

It's hard to compete with paid professionals. Simmers want stuff for their game and that means production. TSR produces, they got a jump start on that production, and the free community helped that to happen. That's not a judgement just a fact. The idea that that was somehow our fault is ludicrous. The people involved are highly intelligent and capable individuals who neither need nor desire our opinions. In fact most of them probably know more about TSR than we do. They make their own decisions based on their own reasoning. That has nothing to do with us. It's not my place to tell Delphy or Inge what to do. Like they would or should even care. I mean really ffs, they've been around longer than most of us. I can express an opinion or a disappointment here on this site, but that's as far as it goes. That being said, I still admire them and am thankful for everything they do. End of story.

If a new happier and younger site is what's needed right now then so be it. Start a new one. Like someone said, (prob one of dstar's tl;dr posts ) when the port of entry for a lot of new people is the BBS and they're directing them straight to paysites, it makes it even harder. I don't have a answer to that one. Ea is never going to change their policy, everyone knows that, so if you have a free site and you want people there and not at TSR or Peggy, then you need to make that happen. It's someone else's issue.

On a different not, I'm having a slight problem finding these glory days when people here were not ripping each to shreds. Aside from the fact that when I came here in late 07 and got squarely kicked in the nuts for it, I've been reading some old threads and I'm not finding much in the way of hand holding and Kumbuya. There were some nasty rows going on here. It's actually why I stuck around. Well that and the naked drunken jacuzzi parties. Awww I miss Mando. So anyway, that one is going over my head.

[Missbonbon]

I won't lie, I haven't read the walls of texts. Mainly because, dstar, I read your reply this morning, and I have had a few things to say...

I do not agree that we need to allow underage children. Period. Why? Let's start with the fact that we would have to change, literally EVERYTHING about PMBD. It would no longer be PMBD. For instance, you suggested keeping them in their own separate part of the site. How do you suggest that? Let me tell you a story. Back when I was young, and Neopets was fantastical, I signed up. For those of you who don't know, when you go to register, they have age groups you select. If you selected 13 and under, you had no access to the forums unless you printed a permission slip, had your parents sign it, and mailed it to Neopets corporate head quaters, in California. What did I do when I discovered this? I made a new account, and lied about my birthday. When you go to Livejournal, and that window that pops up and warns you about adult content not suitable for people under the age of 18/21, do you read it or just click on through? There is literally no way Pes could keep 12's confined to their own area of the site.

Second of all, someone would have to go through the entire site, and edit/delete any posts not deemed suitable for minors. That would a whole shit load of history, erased. Not to mention, how terrible would it look that we complain how TSR is NOT Pg-13, and then we are bringing all the smut here? Bye bye Smuttiest thread! Oh by the way, bye bye ugliest creations thread as well since sometimes creations in there are borderline smut sometimes. Those two threads alone, I personally believe helped change a lot about how the community views paysites, and more specifically TSR.

And to be quiet honest, none of the booty staff really have the time, or probably even the desire to run around chastising everyone, and banning people. Yes, we don't have to much of an issue now, BUT it would become increasingly worse.

And I doubt allowing 12's would stop the "PMBD hate" secrets. There were people that had issues with how PMBD used to be, there are people who have issues with how it is now, and I'm sure people would have issues with how it's going to be. I agree, maybe we should refine ourselves to a degree, but should we change entirely? No. Does GOS change everytime a hate secret is made? No. Does no one see that at least once a week there is a secret about that one forum, is it N99? The one that does allow underage children, and how one of them was using homophobic slurs in their chat? Do we really was a bunch of ignorant children running around calling everyone fags because that's what daddy said? No.

To build upon what Mamakitty said, in a sense they are being protected by not being here. What do we do when the first time a proven 12 year old photobucket is hacked and replaced with sick porn? Of course we can say TSR did it, but that just gives TSR fuel to the fire of "those damn dirty pirates." It will just give them more of a reason to tell their younger audience to not participate over here. Not to mention, do we really want to deal with those situations?

Yes children have access to a multitude of things that many adults do not agree with. But it is not our job to provide a safe haven for children. Like I said before, nothing is stopping children from educating themselves, if not here, but at SimsCave, where it is more appropriate for minors.

And someone already touched upon this, but PMBD usually is not someone's first venture into the sims custom content community. Just look at our "How you found this place" thread. A good portion of those people either were seeking out free pay items, or found us through another website. Let's pretend we are beginners here, and say we just registered our game. So we go to EA's list of fansites, and what do we find? Mostly pay sites. People who venture into the community using the BBS, are already set up to go to paysites. Many of the more active members here, and even people who aren't members here, and yelled and hollered about it on the BBS. Unfortunately, efforts so far have not worked. But that's not to say we aren't trying to get at least Mod the Sims listed.

All the Time Not Just when they Make Something We Like or Do Something We Approve of

This irks me. We do support the free community. Maybe others don't see it as I do, but it is possible to disagree with someone's ethics/viewpoints, and still like their content or what they contribute to the community. Look at Inge for example. Not many here agree on her working with TSR, BUT if she was to make a totally kick ass program for us to use, we would thank her for it. It is possible to like someone, and not like their viewpoints.

When you are in a war you often need to change your tactics in terms of gaining the support of the neutral parties

This I agree with. BUT I think the direction you want us to move in, would be extremely detrimental to PMBD, our cause, our image, and our motive. I only see paysites using the chilluns against us and not with us.

Disagreement and debate is healthy- bitch smacking people for doing so is not- I am just as guilty as anyone else in this sense but I am not going to pretend that I am innocent, and shove all the negativity that goes on -some perpetrated by me behind a curtain and lie about it because this is what TSR and other paysites do. MOAR FIGHT does not mean lets just kill everything just because it doesn't agree with us ( well maybe it does to Pescado but he is a unique individual and he has the right to his own views)

This I think would fall under what DoW was saying about civility, in which case I agree.

What shouldn't happen is that this place, the grimy, argumentative, no bullshit, anti paysite hard-line forum gets diluted into something more about file sharing than about the drama TSR people constantly stir up and the illegality of selling sims items.

This isn't the face most people see when coming into the community for the first time, this is the place people should end up after they have some experience, both with forums (and reading the FAQ, seriously, how difficult is that? oO) and custom content. People coming here asking questions like 'duuuuh how do i put this supah kewl bed in muh gamezor?' are obviously in the wrong place, and to be honest, they will have been through other sites and forums to find this one in the first place, where their questions would probably have received a better reception.

Again, I agree. We usually are not the first stop in someone's content extravaganza, and the only reason I could for see people continually checking here is if they are active members, or just curious about us in the first place. There is a reason we don't have a huge section devoted to sharing our own content we made, or a "community finds" list. We don't want people to just drop in for the shinies, we want them to be educated about the EULA, and paysites dirty wrong doings.

It should not end up that we end up as the face of the free community but it often does- 12's shouldn't be here- but then as I have already said- the Sims w/o CC is a PG-13 game- with CC it can often be an M Rated game depending on what sites the little darlings shop for their CC hence the 12's should not be playing Sims at all

This makes no sense to me. Just because you can modify a game to be an "M" rated game, does not make it unsuitable for children. Parents can choose to not allow their children on the internet to get CC. Just like we can choose to not be a PG-13 friendly environment. It doesn't matter if those 12's have access to penis hacks and rape hacks, the point of the conflict is whether or not those hacks should be readily available to them. Just like here, I don't see the argument as how friendly is PMBD to children, but more as do children belong at PMBD? Based upon your statement, I should allow my 5 year old niece to watch the Saw series, as long as I cover her eyes during the inappropriate parts. Which no, that's not right at all.

Thanks for the link, dstar. It's surprising for me to see the recent upswing in their numbers. Though some of that can probably be attributed to the influx of new simmers after the release of Sims3, and also to the fact that TSR is all but officially endorsed by EA (a disadvantage we've always been hard pressed to overcome), it's still discomforting to see.

Yep. Another thing is, the statistics only show which countries those stats are coming from, and where those visitors actually visit. They do not show the age of the visitors. For all we know, all but 5% of those visitors could be adults.

I'd also like to clarify my thoughts regarding the secret. The author of the secret was saying that we've lost credibility among community LEADERS

Again, agreed. From what I know, a majority of the people that did work with TSR already had a negative viewpoint of PMBD from the get go. I am all for trying to change their opinion, but we have to be careful as well. If one person wants us to do A, and the next person wants us to do B, and the next person wants us to do C, then what do that leave us? More inconsistent that what the secret maker already suggests.

Whether or not changing our mind set will increase our standing within the community is something else entirely, but it's definitely something worth discussing.

Agreed as well. Maybe it is time to change to the beat of a different drum.

I think we need to have some sort of voice disconnected with content sharing

Agreed. Like I suggested, an outside forum would probably be the best option. If Pes, or anyone else with hosting wouldn't mind helping out in that department, and if a couple people here wouldn't mind helping out, I would have no problem starting a website that just simply states facts. No bitch slapping or anything else involved. Just a place for people to express their viewpoints, and hopefully clear the air about misconceptions.

If PMBD has started back in the Sims 1 days when the very first paysites started up I think that we would be looking at a much different picture today. Had the community leaders put their feet down in the beginning- we would be seeing a different picture today. Had the community refused to support paysites at all from the beginning it would be a different story today.

Exactly. I view the reasons for PMBD starting was to wake up the community as to what was happening. No other community I know of allows charging to outside content. The only one I can think of is Second Life, but that was built to be that way. If there was a PMBD back in the day, I doubt we would be in the situation we are in now. But things from the past cannot be changed, and I say don't regret the past, but use it as a learning tool.

Sorry for the TL;DR post, but I have been brewing on this for 8 hours. Needless to say, some situations you guys have already discussed and gone over with, but I had to get them out all the same.

And Snarky, for not sharing my beef soup, I shall create SMBD and show all those people how you share ingredients of other soups to other people, and steal soup from grocery stores!

[ShanOw]

Second of all, someone would have to go through the entire site, and edit/delete any posts not deemed suitable for minors. That would a whole shit load of history, erased. Not to mention, how terrible would it look that we complain how TSR is NOT Pg-13, and then we are bringing all the smut here? Bye bye Smuttiest thread! Oh by the way, bye bye ugliest creations thread as well since sometimes creations in there are borderline smut sometimes. Those two threads alone, I personally believe helped change a lot about how the community views paysites, and more specifically TSR.

You raise a very valid point; this Phorum exists as a place for adults and mature teenagers to discuss and argue community issues and ultimitely destroy paysites. This should not be made into a happy-go-lucky fansite; rather it should be a place for intellegent people to discuss ways to promote and protect the 'happy-go-lucky' sites to keep the kiddies away from TSR.

Dstar's new site (And the SailfinSims Network) are an excellent step in the right direction. They are free sites that support other free sites. If this community was made up of more people that supported and promoted free sites rather than just bash paysites we would not be having this steaming debate in the first place.