OFFICIAL THANK YOU THREAD

[calalily]

Obviously if women were socialized to say "no" more and sooner, it would not prevent all rapes. But it would prevent a hell of a lot. Every woman I know who was sexually assaulted knew their assaulter, and the ones who were assaulted as teens or adults were too "nice" to say no soon or loud.

I think that would help as well.  I also think that it would make it harder for the rapist to lie to himself about consent. 

Which is why every girl should know how to use a gun 

She would be far more likely to shoot herself, or do nothing. The US has plenty of guns, plenty of people who know how to use guns, and it's not exactly a crime-free utopia. It does have about 80 deaths per day by gun violence, including about 8 kids. 

[pinkyfriend]

Which is why you teach people how to use a gun & promote gun safety. There are always going to be idiots with guns, just like there also will be idiots with other forms of weapons...the world is full of idiots. The biggest problem with kids getting guns is that their parents need to keep the guns locked up. I know this sounds like I am simplifying things a lot, but I think we need to take more accountability for our own actions. I know how to use a gun & highly doubt I would shoot myself.
As far as women 'avoiding' rape by avoiding being in a situation where it could occur...sounds like you are talking more about date rape. And yeah, while I think women should be more careful about getting themselves in a potentially bad situation, I also don't think you can tell by looking at a guy whether he is a rapist. The most approachable, seemingly nice guy could be the worst, while a scroungy-looking dude could actually be the nicest. It is also laying the blame of rape at the woman's door...something society is all too ready to do!

[Immortelle]

And the moment you start laying rape at the womans door, you get a whole new can of worms opening up.  All the work that the Women's RIghts movements have done over the past century are suddenly for naught.    Rapists can then use, the 'she was asking for it' excuse.  Blaming what she was wearing,  that she was outside at night, that she was alone, etc. 

The problem with the word no, is that not all rapists listem to the word no.  The problem with using a gun is the odds that the rapist has a gun too, and will likely use it before the victim does.  Better to learn some form of martial arts. Work out a little. 

[Alexia]

I've been a black belt tae-kwon-do athlete since I was a 12 and I used to compete, so I believed I'd have no qualms about hitting somebody if I was attacked. Turns out on the one occassion that someone tried to molest me I hollered like heck before I even thought about hitting him. It worked, he left me alone and I've never since had a problem. Being trained to perform martial arts athletically leaves you with a huge disadvantage. I started training when I was a 0 (5 y.o. actually) and every single coach I ever had drilled in that what we learn on the mat stays on the mat. To this day I doubt I'd lift a finger against somebody, just cause I know I could seriously hurt them.

I'll support what has been mentioned before, rape or assault is rarely a phenomenon committed by strangers. It's more often than not people who you know and think you can trust. In my case, a friend I'd known since grade school who thought I was goofing around when I told him no the first 10 times. Just say no emphatically and if it's someone you know threaten to tell other people about their behaviour. (and warning other people about their actions is also a good idea).

[Darqstar]

I have a friend who was able to scare a rapist into not going ahead with his plan, I kid you not.  She lived in this building where this guy had broken into various apartments and raped two women.  Neither of them called the police, but my friend heard about it.  And yes, she tried to secure her apartment, but in order to make major changes (like bars on the windows, or alarming the whole place) you need to get the landlord's permission and he was a cheap bastard.

The guy broke into her place one night and she convinced him she was crazier than he was.  She started yelling that it took him long enough to get around to her, and wasn't she good enough for him, and told him his knife was kinky and she liked that, she just treated him like he was a roving male hooker, sent around for her amusement.  The guy got freaked and left.  She called the police.  They caught the guy, but they couldn't pin anything but a B&E on him, because he never got far enough to make sure that rape was his intent.

If the two previous victims had been willing to come forward and tell what happened, they probably could have pinned the rape charges and gotten the guy to go to jail a lot longer.  As it was, the guy got a 5 year sentence and was out in about 18 months for "good behavior."  And, because yaknow, the jails are crowded, so they needed to push out a harmless little rapist to make room for a really important criminal, like a guy who was caught smoking a joint.  'Cause those pot smoking guys are a real danger to society compared to a guy who breaks into apartments and rapes women.  

But, in a situation like that, it's pretty black and white.  The guy wasn't known, he broke into apartments, he raped women.  It's not like that can be misunderstood.  Date rape is harder, because a lot of times these guys completely and utterly convince themselves that she wanted it, that she was giving out the signals, whatever, and thus, they can be utterly sincere in court.  Meanwhile, because women are supposed to be the strong ones, and society often attaches a shame to a woman who "gives in" women are reluctant to turn in a date rapist because they're deep down afraid that they gave him a wrong signal or did something wrong that led to this.  But if in a clear cut case of "guy not invited, coming into your place late at night and forcing sex at knife point" and women are still afraid of the humiliation they might have to face if they told, imagine how it must feel to someone to step forward and have people think, "Sure, it was rape *snort* the bitch was asking for it!"

[calalily]

Which is why you teach people how to use a gun & promote gun safety.

That doesn't happen. Like you say, there's always idiots with guns - better not to promote them as the solution to all problems. They create a lot more problems than they fix.

The problem with the word no, is that not all rapists listem to the word no.  The problem with using a gun is the odds that the rapist has a gun too, and will likely use it before the victim does.  Better to learn some form of martial arts. Work out a little. 

Of course rapists don't listen to the word No, but some sort of activity is better than nothing.  A rapist isn't likely to have a gun though - more likely to have a knife or a cord, or nothing at all.  Most rapists don't want to kill the victim - they want to terrify and cow them, so they don't tend to use guns.  On the practical side, you can't give someone a quiet little gunshot wound to make them behave, and part of it is making the victim comply through strength and the threat of violence.

Apart from changing mindsets, I don't think there is any surefire way to stop a rape. 

I'll support what has been mentioned before, rape or assault is rarely a phenomenon committed by strangers. It's more often than not people who you know and think you can trust.

Rare in comparison with other rapes - not rare in itself though.

But, in a situation like that, it's pretty black and white.  The guy wasn't known, he broke into apartments, he raped women.  It's not like that can be misunderstood. 

That doesn't always guarantee a conviction, believe it or not.  That is the most likely scenario that will lead to conviction, but still the character of the victim is used at trial - whether she said No, whether she's had some boyfriend visit her in the middle of the night and have sex with her, whether she was lubricated. And you can bet your arse that if it were a rape trial with more victims, he would have fought harder.

Meanwhile, because women are supposed to be the strong ones, and society often attaches a shame to a woman who "gives in" women are reluctant to turn in a date rapist because they're deep down afraid that they gave him a wrong signal or did something wrong that led to this.  But if in a clear cut case of "guy not invited, coming into your place late at night and forcing sex at knife point" and women are still afraid of the humiliation they might have to face if they told, imagine how it must feel to someone to step forward and have people think, "Sure, it was rape *snort* the bitch was asking for it!"

Most people in the CJS wouldn't be willing to go through a rape trial - and many wouldn't want to put their kids in to testify for a child sexual abuse because of the way victims get treated at trial.  Even though here we've removed the ability for defense lawyers to use the victim's history, they bypass that by questioning the victim extensively about that at the summary trial (indictment in the US) so that the victim is primed for the actual trial and fucks their testimony because they get nervous and agitated. 

[neriana]

The VAST majority of rapists don't have any weapon and don't even use their fists. How often do you carry a gun to a party, on a date, or to a friend's house?

As it happens, calalily, I share your opinions about guns. But even getting legislation that makes people wait a week before buying a semi-automatic, or registering their weapons, passed, is incredibly hard in the U.S., and often political suicide. It's hard even for many Americans to understand (unlike the stereotype, most of us do not own guns): gun culture here is deeply tied up with patriotism, religion, deep-rooted, constantly fed fear, a certain kind of masculinity, and ideas of (specifically American) "whiteness". The NRA is phenomenally powerful, and they can convince many of their followers that any legislation about guns whatsoever means next thing you know, the men in black will be taking away hunting rifles.

[Pescado]

The VAST majority of rapists don't have any weapon and don't even use their fists. How often do you carry a gun to a party, on a date, or to a friend's house?

Always? Those are the most dangerous places to be! Notice how you totally don't expect attack there. So if someone is planning an attack, that is where you should expect the attack!

As it happens, calalily, I share your opinions about guns. But even getting legislation that makes people wait a week before buying a semi-automatic, or registering their weapons, passed, is incredibly hard in the U.S., and often political suicide. It's hard even for many Americans to understand (unlike the stereotype, most of us do not own guns): gun culture here is deeply tied up with patriotism, religion, deep-rooted, constantly fed fear, a certain kind of masculinity, and ideas of (specifically American) "whiteness". The NRA is phenomenally powerful, and they can convince many of their followers that any legislation about guns whatsoever means next thing you know, the men in black will be taking away hunting rifles.

Damn straight. You can have my gun when you PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS you FILTHY PINKO TRAITOR.

[calalily]

Ah Pescado, you can smell the debate about gun control a mile away, and what a surprise you're pro-gun.  Of course, psychos like you are why guns should be controlled. You are the convincing reason as to why projectile weapons should be controlled as strictly as possible, and not given to paranoid bullshit artists.

As it happens, calalily, I share your opinions about guns. But even getting legislation that makes people wait a week before buying a semi-automatic, or registering their weapons, passed, is incredibly hard in the U.S., and often political suicide.

Oh definitely.  I think it's so ingrained in the culture there it's impossible to remove it.  We had the Port Arthur massacre, and the majority of people here were happy to agree to gun control (although I understand a lot of farmers buried their guns in lengths of PVC pipe - just the place for quick accessibility in case of attack).  In the US, no matter how many people die, the idea of giving up guns? Never on the agenda - and I doubt it ever will be.

[dusdeedawn]

Well, I don't know if I'm the best person in the world to talk about this, I'm really, in the main, anti-gun, but I certainly see them (as they pertain to my life) as a necessary evil. I must say, I have two guns here in this very house and another in my place up north. I am, indeed, American, and I would, indeed, throw a shit fit if my government tried to take away my guns. But I think that the mild legislation that has been suggested (regulation on automatic weapons) is more than reasonable. Because, really, an AK-47 is just a little too too when it comes to Gran protecting herself. However, I am an Alaskan, and living out in my particular part of the woods during hunting season without a gun is simply inviting trouble, being female as I am. And there are always going to be those shit-stupid hunters that come trespassing on my property. They have guns. What should I have, a fucking knife? Plus there's, you know, wildlife and junk (who, incidentally, bother me considerably less). The way I grew up, you don't go out without your dog or your gun, preferably both. You just don't. It's more than mere culture for us up here. Having a gun is like having a pack of matches - just something you should have, no matter what you're doing. Because if you find yourself in a situation where you need it and don't have it, you're fucked. Well, except those pussies from Anchorage. That city really should get rid of their guns. Anyhow, we were also raised with respect for what guns are capable of, and most of the kids I grew up with were taught how to properly treat them - which is something that Texas trailer trash simply don't bother with, it seems.

[Paden]

I was taught to use and respect guns. Both of my parents were members of the NRA and adhered to what they teach, which is respect for the weapon and how to use it properly. Official history of the group shows what the actual aims for the founding were. I know the damage one can do, I know the safety one can bring and I know the food that one can provide. I also know that you never, ever get one out when you're angry or not in control of yourself, which sadly, some people don't.

Not ALL Americans are trigger happy fucking idiots, which some people from other countries do not seem to understand. If they didn't have guns to commit crimes with, they'd find something else, from lead pipes to goddamn boomarangs. The actual guns do NOT commit the crimes, the PEOPLE wielding them do. It's the people that don't get the education that misuse the fucking things, not those of us that have relied on them for protection and food. If some raving fucking lunatic broke into my house intent on doing harm to myself or my family, I would feel no remorse about defending us with a gun. I'd rather see my family alive and be up on charges than have all of us dead.

I do own a gun. It's locked up in a gun safe that is locked up in something else. If/when my son reaches the mental capacity to learn gun safety, he will be taught. Should he never reach that stage, he'll never know that I own it, simple as that. The gun was my mother's. It was given to her by my father and it was given to him by the U.S. Army Air Corp. It was his personal side arm and when he had to serve his summer time duty and such, he felt better knowing that my mother had that there to protect herself and their children because they lived in an area that was known for shit happening to women alone with kids. I'm glad she had it, or I'd never have been born five years after they moved.

That same gun put food on the table when the times were hard and the money was tight but a hunting license was owned. Because of that firearm, we ate well. Like it's already been said, some of us know how to treat guns and respect them. Don't judge a whole country based on what fuckwits do because they're too damn ignorant to know that guns stay locked up when not being used for hunting and you sure in the hell don't use them when angry. Anyone with half a brain knows that.

[Immortelle]

The thing is with the criminal element in Australia is that if they want a gun they will get it off the black market.  Although I still do not see that as a reason for honest folk to have a gun on them, as use of a gun would only provoke a criminal to use his.  I've known crims, one idiot is apparently locked up now for shooting someone. A lot of crims have had some seriously messed up lives, they've seen and done stuff that normal folk would probably only read about.  All that crap makes them incredibly unpredictable and at times extremely volatile Gun laws make it a damn site harder for them to arm themselves with a gun, and many of them have to resort to carrying a knife, which is much easier to deal with.  If you want a gun to protect yourself, remember this, a gun can only make a bad situation worse, so think very carefully before getting it out.

[Darqstar]

I'd never own a gun.  Not because I couldn't learn to use it, I could.  But because I know there are times when I've lost control.  If I had access to a gun at those points, I probably would have killed someone.  Not a fun thing to realize about myself, but at least I do realize it and stay far away  from guns.

[Pescado]

Of course rapists don't listen to the word No, but some sort of activity is better than nothing.  A rapist isn't likely to have a gun though - more likely to have a knife or a cord, or nothing at all.  Most rapists don't want to kill the victim - they want to terrify and cow them, so they don't tend to use guns.  On the practical side, you can't give someone a quiet little gunshot wound to make them behave, and part of it is making the victim comply through strength and the threat of violence.

Apart from changing mindsets, I don't think there is any surefire way to stop a rape.

Changing mindsets is important, yes. You need to start early on, by teaching your kids to kill starting from birth. Your first and immediate reaction to physical attack should be to kill the attacker.

I've been a black belt tae-kwon-do athlete since I was a 12 and I used to compete, so I believed I'd have no qualms about hitting somebody if I was attacked. Turns out on the one occassion that someone tried to molest me I hollered like heck before I even thought about hitting him.

See, this illustrates the problem: Martial arts training is only worth so much: Unless have trained to overcome that squeamishness against killing, all that training is worthless because you have already ceded the initiative to the attacker. This is the sort of the training that has to be started from birth for best effect. Children should be trained to kill immediately and without hesitation. Your first response to attack should not be ineffectual screaming or wailing, but to strike immedaitely, and strike to kill. The truth is that there are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people. Be one of them.

[calalily]

But I think that the mild legislation that has been suggested (regulation on automatic weapons) is more than reasonable. Because, really, an AK-47 is just a little too too when it comes to Gran protecting herself.

That would certainly make things a lot better.  But the gun culture is still too ingrained in USians to let them acknowledge that 9 bullets a second might be a tad excessive for self defence.  Until the mindset is changed that guns are a solution to violence, there's no hope whatsoever that things will change.

If they didn't have guns to commit crimes with, they'd find something else, from lead pipes to goddamn boomarangs. The actual guns do NOT commit the crimes, the PEOPLE wielding them do.

Until I hear of a case with a five year accidentally beating himself to death with a lead pipe, or 10 people being killed via driveby boomerang attack, I will and do assume that guns are in a completely different league.

Gun laws make it a damn site harder for them to arm themselves with a gun, and many of them have to resort to carrying a knife, which is much easier to deal with.  If you want a gun to protect yourself, remember this, a gun can only make a bad situation worse, so think very carefully before getting it out.

Ha - true.  Knife control is the biggest new issue in criminology - as a result of the difficulty of getting hold of a gun.  And statistics show that if you have a gun to defend yourself, you are heaps more likely to be shot - either by the criminal because he feels he has no control, or by yourself.

I'd never own a gun.  Not because I couldn't learn to use it, I could.  But because I know there are times when I've lost control. 

I don't see them as necessary - I've known many people who've lived their entire lives without guns.  Pffft - there are USians who live without guns, and they seem to live just fine.

Changing mindsets is important, yes. You need to start early on, by teaching your kids to kill starting from birth. Your first and immediate reaction to physical attack should be to kill the attacker.

I agree with you on this - although I would argue that they should incapacitate, or at least remove the threat - not kill.