You know the funny thing...

[avic]

And the problem with your logic is...it isn't about the fricking chocolates. it was about the POINT of that story.

Next.

And, what, pray tell, was the point?

[torque]

To use your brains once in a while.  :roll:

[avic]

If you think I am lying to myself, well you just don't know me at all.

First of all, I've spent well over $200 on custom content alone.  I never said I needed any of it.  When I said that content was "being held hostage," I meant that creators with overinflated egos have determined that their shit is worth well over what Maxis/EA has determined their own stuff to be worth.

Do you really think it's fair for some shite creator to detemine that 8 lousy skins is worth $5 which is a quarter of what EA charges for an entire add-on stuff pack?

Give me a fucking break.

Also, I don't have any of this shit in my game.  I have very specific creators that I love and I've happily donated to them where I could.  Most of what I have are from free sites.  The only reason I donate to paysites is because I either love it, or I got it specifically to share with others.

My mother and my kindergarten teacher both told me it's polite to share your toys, and who am I to argue with that kind of wisdom?

Nope, I don't think it's a fair market value to pay $5 for a PoS skin.  So I don't pay said $5, nor do I have said skins in my game.  And while I'll agree with that, I don't agree that the correct course of action is to take said work and post it for anyone who wants it.

[Benjamina]

Pescado do I even have to ask?  

What, if avic has been the latest hypocrit to come in here, someone who wants to argue against PMBD while dipping his/her grubby little fingers in the booty at the same time? lol

Speak your piece avic, yay or nay, JM will find you out either way...are you a hypocrit?

[silverfish]

it's funny how you can lie to yourself, eh?

For example. My friend buys a box of candies. And shares the candies with me. Cause he's such a good friend, of course.

Now. He paid. I didn't. He got candy. I got candy. All is well. All is good.

I didn't grab the candy box and steal it from him. Life is beautiful. O la la.

And the problem with that logic... your friend's box of chocolates has a fixed number of candies in it.  Whether he shares with you, eats them all himself, or gives them to his girlfriend, once those chocolates are gone, they're gone.  He's not magically duplicating the box so that no matter how many he gives away or eats he's always got a full box of chocolate.

Next.

Your logic works for me.  So shouldn't a creator only get paid for making said item only once?  Instead of magically replicating the same creation and getting paid over and over again for the same exact item?

When retailers get paid for anything, they must provide something tangible for each item they sell.  A shirt, a toy or a box of choclates perhaps...

[avic]

Pescado do I even have to ask?  

What, if avic has been the latest hypocrit to come in here, someone who wants to argue against PMBD while dipping his/her grubby little fingers in the booty at the same time? lol

Speak your piece avic, yay or nay, JM will find you out either way...are you a hypocrit?

Nope.  I looked at the sites that were up for grabs, but I haven't downloaded the first thing.  Of course, this is my work computer, not my home one, so you only have my word on that, but hey :-)

And Silverfish, and Jesserocket, you make very good arguments.  In the case of paysites, it's not so black and white, because as you say, they aren't supposed to be making a profit.  But in the case of someone who makes a living from creative content, yes, you are stealing from them each time someone gets a game or music or ebooks or what-have-you that they didn't pay for.

As for Silverfish, I don't think the argument holds in the case of entertainment.  It's not a wholly tangible item, and so it's a bit harder to judge in that case.  But let's say someone sneaks into a movie.  They're stealing a free show, but the theatre's not necessarily out any money if the person couldn't/wouldn't have paid to begin with.  And what if they recorded the movie while they were there and made copies for all their friends?  The theatre still isn't directly out any money, but does that make it right?  Do you, or anyone else, have the right to something without paying for it just because?  I don't think so.

And lastly, Torque, I'm not the one slinging insults, thanks.  When you decide you actually want to debate civilly, let me know.  Otherwise, you're not contributing to the discussion.

Speaking of discussion, thanks to all of those who have actually taken the time to post a well-thought-out response :-)

[Lackey]

If you think I am lying to myself, well you just don't know me at all.

First of all, I've spent well over $200 on custom content alone.  I never said I needed any of it.  When I said that content was "being held hostage," I meant that creators with overinflated egos have determined that their shit is worth well over what Maxis/EA has determined their own stuff to be worth.

Do you really think it's fair for some shite creator to detemine that 8 lousy skins is worth $5 which is a quarter of what EA charges for an entire add-on stuff pack?

Give me a fucking break.

Also, I don't have any of this shit in my game.  I have very specific creators that I love and I've happily donated to them where I could.  Most of what I have are from free sites.  The only reason I donate to paysites is because I either love it, or I got it specifically to share with others.

My mother and my kindergarten teacher both told me it's polite to share your toys, and who am I to argue with that kind of wisdom?

Nope, I don't think it's a fair market value to pay $5 for a PoS skin.  So I don't pay said $5, nor do I have said skins in my game.  And while I'll agree with that, I don't agree that the correct course of action is to take said work and post it for anyone who wants it.

Answer this question. Paysites tell us everywhere that they own the copyright. When I go to the site though they tell me this

This site is not endorsed by or affiliated with Electronic Arts, or its licensors. Trademarks are the property of their respective owners. Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc. and its licensors. All Rights Reserved

They know I paid them money for access to  GAME CONTENT. and they also tell me that on their site (meaning their specific files) Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc So tell me where exactly am I going against a copyright and STEALING anything. I did pay for the access(I am not sharing the access) and EA has made it plan and clear that we can share GAME CONTENT. They actually have set up the EXCHANGE so people can share GAME CONTENT, so you really need to come up with a better argument. Hey, I have an idea, why dont you people use your secret forum to come up with a better argument instead of sharing personal info because quite frankly a lot of people have come to our side because of that sharing of personal information. I think even EA may step in and make their point a little clearer now that there is a danger aspect from going to a paysite.

[avic]

it's funny how you can lie to yourself, eh?

For example. My friend buys a box of candies. And shares the candies with me. Cause he's such a good friend, of course.

Now. He paid. I didn't. He got candy. I got candy. All is well. All is good.

I didn't grab the candy box and steal it from him. Life is beautiful. O la la.

And the problem with that logic... your friend's box of chocolates has a fixed number of candies in it.  Whether he shares with you, eats them all himself, or gives them to his girlfriend, once those chocolates are gone, they're gone.  He's not magically duplicating the box so that no matter how many he gives away or eats he's always got a full box of chocolate.

Next.

Your logic works for me.  So shouldn't a creator only get paid for making said item only once?  Instead of magically replicating the same creation and getting paid over and over again for the same exact item?

When retailers get paid for anything, they must provide something tangible for each item they sell.  A shirt, a toy or a box of choclates perhaps...

Actually, I just had a very good rebuttal on this one.  Do we REALLY want a creator to only charge "once" for an item?  How much are you willing to pay to go see a movie, buy a game, etc.?  If creators only charge "once" that means we'll be paying $100 million to go see a movie, or $10 million for a game, etc.  If they didn't break it down, it wouldn't be affordable at all.  So, yeah, in the case of non-tangible entertainment items, they have to "magically replicate" and get paid over and over for the exact same item.

[torque]

And lastly, Torque, I'm not the one slinging insults, thanks.  When you decide you actually want to debate civilly, let me know.  Otherwise, you're not contributing to the discussion.

Not into debates. Boring.

But you sound more reasonable already.
I don't hate you or anything.  :wink:

[avic]

Answer this question. Paysites tell us everywhere that they own the copyright. When I go to the site though they tell me this

This site is not endorsed by or affiliated with Electronic Arts, or its licensors. Trademarks are the property of their respective owners. Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc. and its licensors. All Rights Reserved

They know I paid them money for access to  GAME CONTENT. and they also tell me that on their site (meaning their specific files) Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc So tell me where exactly am I going against a copyright and STEALING anything. I did pay for the access(I am not sharing the access) and EA has made it plan and clear that we can share GAME CONTENT. They actually have set up the EXCHANGE so people can share GAME CONTENT, so you really need to come up with a better argument. Hey, I have an idea, why dont you people use your secret forum to come up with a better argument instead of sharing personal info because quite frankly a lot of people have come to our side because of that sharing of personal information. I think even EA may step in and make their point a little clearer now that there is a danger aspect from going to a paysite.

Firstly, I'm not "you people", so I don't have more than passing knowledge of said "secret forum", nor do I have access to it.

Secondly, I'm not a copyright lawyer, so I don't know the specifics of who owns what.  I suspect that it's very gray.  However, as of yet EA has done nothing to stop said paysites, so that in itself is tacit approval since it isn't as though the paysites are hiding.

Thirdly, it's up to each individual who creates content how they wish to share it, whether strictly among friends, for free to whoever wants it, or charging $50 a head.  It's up to each individual who downloads whether or not they want to meet the requirements to get such content honestly.  Don't want to pay?  Don't.  Nobody's forcing you.  

And as for whether or not EA wants to shut down the paysites, that's purely their business and I don't think it really has any bearing on whether or not it's ethical to repost files which are provided on paysites.

[avic]

And lastly, Torque, I'm not the one slinging insults, thanks.  When you decide you actually want to debate civilly, let me know.  Otherwise, you're not contributing to the discussion.

Not into debates. Boring.

But you sound more reasonable already.
I don't hate you or anything.  :wink:

Good thing :-)  I do LOVE your avatar, btw :-)

[torque]

Just a random image off of Google. But thanks, I like it too.  :wink:

[Lackey]

Answer this question. Paysites tell us everywhere that they own the copyright. When I go to the site though they tell me this

This site is not endorsed by or affiliated with Electronic Arts, or its licensors. Trademarks are the property of their respective owners. Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc. and its licensors. All Rights Reserved

They know I paid them money for access to  GAME CONTENT. and they also tell me that on their site (meaning their specific files) Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc So tell me where exactly am I going against a copyright and STEALING anything. I did pay for the access(I am not sharing the access) and EA has made it plan and clear that we can share GAME CONTENT. They actually have set up the EXCHANGE so people can share GAME CONTENT, so you really need to come up with a better argument. Hey, I have an idea, why dont you people use your secret forum to come up with a better argument instead of sharing personal info because quite frankly a lot of people have come to our side because of that sharing of personal information. I think even EA may step in and make their point a little clearer now that there is a danger aspect from going to a paysite.

Firstly, I'm not "you people", so I don't have more than passing knowledge of said "secret forum", nor do I have access to it.

Secondly, I'm not a copyright lawyer, so I don't know the specifics of who owns what.  I suspect that it's very gray.  However, as of yet EA has done nothing to stop said paysites, so that in itself is tacit approval since it isn't as though the paysites are hiding.

Thirdly, it's up to each individual who creates content how they wish to share it, whether strictly among friends, for free to whoever wants it, or charging $50 a head.  It's up to each individual who downloads whether or not they want to meet the requirements to get such content honestly.  Don't want to pay?  Don't.  Nobody's forcing you.  

And as for whether or not EA wants to shut down the paysites, that's purely their business and I don't think it really has any bearing on whether or not it's ethical to repost files which are provided on paysites.

Oh wait, now we want to go with ethical argument? First thing I am gonna point out here is that EA has done nothing to stop the sharing of files either, this would include when those same PAY files are posted on the EXCHANGE. Using your logic we can say that although they are not stopping paysites, they are not stopping sharers either, so they approve of both.

As far as the grey area, there is no grey area, It is a requiremnt of EA that every site, whether pay or free, has to put that on their site. And it is not double talk, it does not beat around the bush, it is plain straight English and it says Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc. There is nothing else on the site. It is ALL GAME CONTENT

The difference between file sharers and paysite owners (talking about ethics here) is that file sharers would never put another person in danger over a game. We would not photoshop our stuff to make it look better than it is just to get your money. and there is a ton of other things we could all list about Ethics. If you are taking the time to read this forum, then please take the time to find the post where someone (posting on behalf of paysites) mentioned a visit to Blue's mom. If you want to debate ethics I would highly suggest you do it on behalf of yourself and NOT in regards to paysites.

[avic]

The difference between file sharers and paysite owners (talking about ethics here) is that file sharers would never put another person in danger over a game. We would not photoshop our stuff to make it look better than it is just to get your money. and there is a ton of other things we could all list about Ethics. If you are taking the time to read this forum, then please take the time to find the post where someone (posting on behalf of paysites) mentioned a visit to Blue's mom. If you want to debate ethics I would highly suggest you do it on behalf of yourself and NOT in regards to paysites.

Wow.  Not much to say on that.  I will see if I can find said posts.  Oh, and Blue - if I interpreted that correctly, I'm sorry that anyone threatened your family.  Ick.

[HotNWet]

In looking at some of the posts on here listing this reason and that reason... it's funny how you can lie to yourself, eh?  The bottom line is, the people downloading these files are stealing.  And if they're okay with that, fine.  But please, don't hide behind "Paysites are crap" and whatever other dozen excuses you can come with - you're still stealing.  If you don't agree with paysites, fine - don't subscribe to them.  That's the honest thing to do.  Anything else is just making excuses for thievery.

YOUR PROBEBLY SOME RETARD HATING HIS LIFE BECAUSE HE DONATED TO THE PAYSITES AND DIDNT RELIZE THERE WAS A SITE LIKE THIS SHUT THE FUCK UP HUN AND GO GET A LIFE, OH AND WATCH YOUR SIMS WOOHOOING CAUSE THATS THE CLOSEST YOULL GET TO A REAL FUCK ASSHOLE.  :oops: Muah**Kisses**