Simsweb pl.

[mando]

That's where the zombie holds no appeal for me - there is no desire for the life that they have - they are no more than viruses.  I mean, if you care about nothing, why would you choose to spend more time like that?  I would choose consciousness with all it's pleasure AND pain rather than oblivion if I also had to be alive.  

I guess this where we'll have to agree to disagree (at least on this point :lol: ). While I think the first few hundred years might be entertaining enough as a vampire, I would think that a life like that would eventually feel meaningless and intolerable. Although, if I were a vampire I could always make myself into a zombie at this point, at least to be part of an evolving, changing species :wink: .

They are unlikely to ever formulate enough skills and nous to find, load, cock and put a gun to their own heads - they are reliant on others to kill them.

We can't say for certain that this is a fact, as there does appear to be some indication in (current pop-culture based) zombies of an at least basic memory and the ability to learn. We are unable to determine how much zombies would evolve out of this early, simple minded state as there is no way to really measure this in the long term (considering that most human cities that suffer a zombie attack tend to be destroyed and devoured with few uninfected survivors). However, in their currently known state zombies don't have the same problems with morality, boredom, and the need for a "fulfilled" life that vampires have. As well, in this known state zombies would not need to know how to kill themselves; why would they need or want to? They are separate from human (and vampire) concerns, and even in an "evolved" state would likely formulate different methods for measuring a successful life.

As for "wanting to live" in the cases of humans fighting off zombie attacks, I'm not sure that there is a fair way to answer that point. There are likely as many humans who don't want to be vampires. In either case the affected persons would need to give up all attachments to their former existence. What humans may or may not want beforehand is not really applicable, as it is their changed state that is the matter of discussion.  

Ah, yes, but if it alleviates the boredom, there's some kind of pleasure derived from the involvement in conspiracy, fighting and clandestine plans.  If said actions become boring or hellish in and of themselves, see above paragraph.

Or as Pescado would say, MOAR FIGHT!

[calalily]

I guess this where we'll have to agree to disagree (at least on this point :lol: ). While I think the first few hundred years might be entertaining enough as a vampire, I would think that a life like that would eventually feel meaningless and intolerable. Although, if I were a vampire I could always make myself into a zombie at this point, at least to be part of an evolving, changing species :wink:

I totally agree that existence would be dead boring after a couple of hundred years.  Although, I could happily tolerate that if it meant learning new stuff, and living all kinds of lives that I can't now.  I mean, I am 33, and halfway through a Ph.D. in criminology.  I would love to do other degrees, such as history, ancient history, religious studies, more sociology, law, chemistry, physics - and those are just the ones that I want to do right now.  But seeing as I don't want to die with "Undergrad Student" as my occupation, I picked my horse and now have to go with it.  

If I were a vampire, I could do all these things, and other things that interest me - live in Venice and do art restoration, all kinds of things.  I would also be interested in things like plumbing (anything apart from retail and customer service).  My life isn't going to continue that long - and so I can't do it.  I could survive as a vampire for quite a long time just learning all the things that currently exist in the world - and then I'd have to catch up with what had been invented while I learnt the sum of current human knowledge.  I'd have no time whatsoever for petty feuds.  Either way, I like MOAR fight - or at least being an observer of MOAR fight.

When I'm finished, or bored, or can't bear going on anymore, it's a quick walk into the sunlight, and I'm done.

We can't say for certain that this is a fact, as there does appear to be some indication in (current pop-culture based) zombies of an at least basic memory and the ability to learn.

Basic memory and ability to learn combined with possible eternal life - not good.  If I have to live forever, I better be able to learn new things easily, have the ability to fly, move fast, act normal and turn into mist (as well as the accompanying mind control and reading powers) and not just be a simple being wandering around.......forever.

However, in their currently known state zombies don't have the same problems with morality, boredom, and the need for a "fulfilled" life that vampires have.

Again, the empty, or less than full shell wandering around - might as well reincarnate as a chicken.

As for "wanting to live" in the cases of humans fighting off zombie attacks

No - I meant if the zombie had a desire to live - if they even develop that - it doesn't matter because the mob will decide for you - and you can't hide your brains hanging out, or the lurch in your step. If you want to live as a zombie, a monocle isn't going to hide the gore and injuries, and the top hat will be greasy and soiled.  You would be a virtual prisoner in your hidey hole - take one step out and the mob kills you with fire.

[Lorelei]

I'd far prefer to be afflicted with vampirism than zombification, myself. Vampires tend to retain their personality and intellect and physical appearance.

There are also different types of vampirism, not all of which result in inevitable death for victims (though some can be just as nasty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_vampire ).

I think adapting to a vampire lifestyle and deriving enjoyment from it would depend on how attached one is or was to things, in life, that vampires can't easily enjoy. If you happened to be a very gregarious sort, and outgoing, you would no doubt miss various human companions as they inevitably died on you. If you tend to be a solitary character by nature, however, you wouldn't mind as much, as you wouldn't form deep emotional bonds in the first place. If you tend to get lonely or bored easily, being a vamp is not for you. If you enjoy your own company and manage to entertain yourself with ease, you'd adapt better.

In philosophy of mind, zombies are hypothetical persons who lack full consciousness but behave otherwise just like other people; thought experiments involving them are often used as metaphors for doubting the existence of minds besides one's own. They are referred to as philosophical zombies or "p-zombies". (wiki)

Again, it is a choice between having a functioning consciousness and possessing self-determination, or merely existing and either being entirely a creature of electrical impulses remaining in the brain pan / someone else's will.

Either way you are dead, but in one case your physical form is preserved and your will and consciousness remain, and in the other your physical form degrades and you are a mindless horror. In the former case, it is possible to attempt to adhere to a moral code and to make the best of the situation, and in the latter, your impulses drive you to be a predator and you lack the consciousness or ability to choose not to harm others.

Longevity and the instinct towards self-preservation is not part of the zombie mythology. Eventually the shell being propelled about falls apart or is consumed by others of its kind, or destroyed by its intended prey. Conversely, longevity and doing anything to continue to survive is one of the major themes in the vampire mythos.

Neither state is ideal, but if one is not interested in maintaining an identity or in self-preservation, zombification would definitely be the less lengthy ordeal. You might do gross things, but "you" wouldn't be around to apply moral judgment or feel pangs of conscience about your behaviors. You'd certainly be free from worldly cares and any personal responsibility.

Vampirism would come with its own challenges, but ultimately the monster you became would still depend to a great extent on the type of person you were before you were infected / transformed.

Also, a small investment in several banks would quickly, to a vampire's mind, multiply into enough financial resources to allow you to adapt in style to your new situation.

If I have to be an undead monster, I'd prefer not to be smelly and have bits of me dropping off, and I'd prefer to be able to make conscious choices about my behavior and interactions with others. If I'm going to be a ruthless predator, perhaps I deserve to feel a little guilt.  :twisted:

[Paden]

Malkavian!!! (Vampire: The Masquerade)

[LilyLocksley]

YES, I so love Makavians! Though Right now my favorite clan to play would be The Daughters of Cacaphony.

[Ry]

I prefered Brujah for V:M.
The punks were my style..lol.

[mando]

When I'm finished, or bored, or can't bear going on anymore, it's a quick walk into the sunlight, and I'm done.

The vampire benefit of clean and easy suicides? Is that good? As a zombie I would not need to worry about desperation like this at all. Even working off of my idea of an evolved zombie, the requirements, culture and mental capacity would likely develop very differently from humans. I do believe that zombies show a capacity for community and shared goals; as such a zombie would always have a place in the larger group and might not be confronted by misery, loneliness or despair that a “thinking” creature like the vampire would be (loner or no).

Basic memory and ability to learn combined with possible eternal life - not good. If I have to live forever, I better be able to learn new things easily, have the ability to fly, move fast, act normal and turn into mist (as well as the accompanying mind control and reading powers) and not just be a simple being wandering around.......forever.

While super powers might seem like a good trade off for an eternal existence, I think the novelty might wear off after the first thousand or so years. As a zombie, I would no longer be myself, but I think the capacity zombies have for change is at least as interesting as any vampire knowledge or magic.  

No - I meant if the zombie had a desire to live - if they even develop that - it doesn't matter because the mob will decide for you - and you can't hide your brains hanging out, or the lurch in your step. If you want to live as a zombie, a monocle isn't going to hide the gore and injuries, and the top hat will be greasy and soiled. You would be a virtual prisoner in your hidey hole - take one step out and the mob kills you with fire.

That depends on how long the mob itself survives, again keeping in mind how quickly the zombie “infection” is spread. Again, a zombie “desire to live” seems to be more of a developing trait, and we don’t really know how this would actually resolve itself as yet. As well, if you become a zombie, I doubt concerns about your appearance are going to be on the top of your agenda. Concerns like this seem really connected to our own human fears of losing consciousness, or becoming something that we don’t recognize. I guess I’m interested in the mythology of zombies simply as an example of newly developing (although, yes, hostile and unreal) species. I think that there is more room for growth as a zombie simply because they are ever changing and there are no limits to what they could eventually become because they are so inhuman.  

I'd far prefer to be afflicted with vampirism than zombification, myself. Vampires tend to retain their personality and intellect and physical appearance.

As humans, it is difficult to imagine a life without the trappings (both good and bad) of human existence, and the general belief would be that it would be better to have an eternal existence that holds on to those things with which we are most familiar. I just want to raise the point that being tied down to a (half)human existence for eternity, and being aware of how much you aren’t connected to the "real" world could be quite pathetic.

There are also different types of vampirism, not all of which result in inevitable death for victims (though some can be just as nasty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_vampire ).

That’s part of the problem here then, we haven’t actually nailed down which vampire mythology we are working from. There are a whole host of vampire (or at least life/blood-sucking) mythologies, several of which have an existence at least as “mindless” as that of a zombie.  

Either way you are dead, but in one case your physical form is preserved and your will and consciousness remain, and in the other your physical form degrades and you are a mindless horror. In the former case, it is possible to attempt to adhere to a moral code and to make the best of the situation, and in the latter, your impulses drive you to be a predator and you lack the consciousness or ability to choose not to harm others.

I think that vampires are at least as horrifying as zombies. Creatures which, for all intents and purposes, are aware enough to understand what they are doing (via general human morality) is wrong, but choose to continue in their current fashion anyway. Vampires seem (for the most part) to cling to the scraps of human existence entirely for their own self interest and benefit (for example, being rich, cultured and dressing well will attract more victims to your lair). For myself (and I will admit this is isn’t a valid outside argument :lol:), I could forgive a zombie for turning my family into zombies simply due to the fact that I know that, at least at “rebirth”, they have very little control over their behaviour. I would find it very difficult, on the other hand, to forgive a vampire who turned (or killed) my family and friends as that would have been a conscious and willful decision on the vampire’s part. They sound to me like a race of super-powered psychopaths; hardly something I would consider a benefit.

However, you can tie neither group down to basic human standards of behaviour, as after their undeath neither group is human.  We have to accept that neither zombies nor vampires are living anything even remotely like a real human life, no matter how well they mimic it. The assumption is also made that zombies are solely “mindless horrors” who have no hope of developing any kind of consciousness. This is belied by the zombie mythology that I am working off of (again, George Romero), as zombies in his films are often shown to develop intelligence, sense of community and instincts for self preservation. I could think of zombies as a developing species of a sort, which I actually find more interesting (from my outside human standpoint, of course) an existence as there are no limits to how zombie “life” could develop. A vampire, to me, seems like a miserable creature who has to live off of scraps of his/her old human life in order to make their way.  

Longevity and the instinct towards self-preservation is not part of the zombie mythology. Eventually the shell being propelled about falls apart or is consumed by others of its kind, or destroyed by its intended prey. Conversely, longevity and doing anything to continue to survive is one of the major themes in the vampire mythos.

I addressed some of this in the above paragraph. Generally (again, in the zombie type I am working form), zombies tend not to attack each other. Close to dead and injured humans, yes, but each other, not so much. You could argue that this is simply because they feel no desire for dead flesh, or from a developing sense of community, both are valid based on current zombie culture. The fact that zombies will also eventually (re)die isn’t necessarily a bad thing as it implies a “natural” life cycle for them. Nothing should last forever, in my opinion. As well, I’m not sure that “doing anything to continue to survive” is really an admirable trait, considering what that might require of a thinking creature. Humans are not supposed to live forever, and extending one’s life through artificial, violent or magical means seems both pointless and selfish. Desiring to be (and fighting to remain) locked at the point one was at in death, unchanging, for eternity is difficult for me to understand. To me, it sounds like an unending nightmare.


Edit: Added a word, and fixed a couple of stupid grammatical errors (yes, I am aware there are probably several more)

[Paden]

The insane wise men were the ones I liked! As you can tell...

[LilyLocksley]

Yes there is truth in your ramblings, of all the cammie clans Malks are by far the best. I like the Daughters because they are a little off as well, plus have the added bonus of shattering people with screams.

[calalily]

Even working off of my idea of an evolved zombie, the requirements, culture and mental capacity would likely develop very differently from humans.

To chose ambling oblivion over thinking - never.  I could never do that.  I stated that my main purpose would be knowledge, with the added benefit of periodic donning of monocles and tophats.  I could never choose the limited capacity that zombies, by virtue of their condition (ie. brains falling out) have.

While super powers might seem like a good trade off for an eternal existence, I think the novelty might wear off after the first thousand or so years. As a zombie, I would no longer be myself, but I think the capacity zombies have for change is at least as interesting as any vampire knowledge or magic.

A thousand years is good - more than I'll ever get.  I doubt highly that zombies, with their body decomposing and having bits knocked off will ever have that much time.  Not to mention that zombies require swarms.

That depends on how long the mob itself survives, again keeping in mind how quickly the zombie “infection” is spread.

Under the 28 days scenario, that was a long time, and many zombies were killed in that movie.  One is not always guaranteed to be the lucky survivor of either camp.

As well, if you become a zombie, I doubt concerns about your appearance are going to be on the top of your agenda.

It's not about appearance - it's about subterfuge.  But monocles and tophats lose all relevance if there is no interest in them.  That would be a sad thing.

Concerns like this seem really connected to our own human fears of losing consciousness, or becoming something that we don’t recognize.

No, for me it is not the fear of losing consciousness, but the recognition of how long eternity really is.  If I am going to have to face that horror, I would rather concentrate on the benefits, such as skill building, knowledge acquisition and all the cool supernatural powers as a trade off to what I am having to face.

To trade off a community existence with a discrete purpose, and the joy of family, particularly those born from my body for a more hideous style of community, with the family born from my actions seems a dreadful tradeoff.  If I have to shamble through eternity - and never die - I'm not going to trade for something similar, but with more faults - like bits coming loose and never being able to go into the public domain, or use my brain for anything other than a hive mind and co-ordination.  MOAR compensation is necessary.

[mando]

To chose ambling oblivion over thinking - never.  I could never do that.  I stated that my main purpose would be knowledge, with the added benefit of periodic donning of monocles and tophats.  I could never choose the limited capacity that zombies, by virtue of their condition (ie. brains falling out) have.

Again, I would no longer be myself as a zombie, I would be something entirely new. As such, my original human self would not be trapped in a shambling, "mindless" existence, my new self would be. I will state again that there has been indications of developing intelligence in current zombie themed work, and what seems like the capacity for more complex thought. I don't believe, based on the mythology that I'm working off of, that zombies would remain in that new-born, simplistic state forever. Since the physiology of zombies isn't really understood that well (or has only been defined based on human terms), we don't really know if they require the brain or body in order to function the same way that humans or vampires would (although to actually exist it seems like they require bodies at least).

A thousand years is good - more than I'll ever get.  I doubt highly that zombies, with their body decomposing and having bits knocked off will ever have that much time.  Not to mention that zombies require swarms.

A thousand years is also an awfully long time to continue in my current existence, unchanged. Whatever knowledge or skills I might obtain would be overshadowed, for me, by the fact I would be tied to the earth forever unable to interact in any real way with the outside world. I would be miserable eventually, no matter how much I was able to gain. As for zombies, what I've noticed is that after the zombie transformation they seem to reach a kind of stasis point after which there is no further degeneration. If a zombie was already infested by flies, or had a limb blown off then, yes, the loss of vital parts and eventual (re)death could be a result, but simply being a zombie does not mean that all of your "bits" are eventually going to fall off.

As for swarms, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's simply an example of that emerging zombie community spirit! :lol:

Under the 28 days scenario, that was a long time, and many zombies were killed in that movie.  One is not always guaranteed to be the lucky survivor of either camp.

I'm working off of a George Romero scenario, where zombie "infestation" happened very quickly despite human skill and knowledge. While it's true that there would be grave (ha, ha, I'm so funny) loses on both sides, I'm still probably going to put my money in the zombie camp. Vampires don't come off well in an "us versus them" scenario either, especially considering their more limited numbers. While powerful, they do have liabilities that are easy to take advantage of.

It's not about appearance - it's about subterfuge.  But monocles and tophats lose all relevance if there is no interest in them.  That would be a sad thing.

This assumes that zombies would actually care about fitting in to human society in order to hide among them, or to be more effective predators. I see no indication that zombies (again, the type I'm using as an example) feel the need to develop a skill like this. They are also not entirely without subterfuge, especially when working alone, as they are known to hide in dark shadows, small spaces, and closets in order to stalk their victims. As a zombie swarm subterfuge is entirely unnecessary, heavily armed humans or no. However, I must concede to your point that the loss of an appreciation for top hats and monocles is tragic.

No, for me it is not the fear of losing consciousness, but the recognition of how long eternity really is.  If I am going to have to face that horror, I would rather concentrate on the benefits, such as skill building, knowledge acquisition and all the cool supernatural powers as a trade off to what I am having to face.

I agree that the recognition and experience of living for eternity is a horrifying thing, and I would prefer not to face such an existence at all. The zombie that I would become is not the me that was but is a new and distinct creature. As this new "life" would be based on new rules, I would not need to be hampered by my past life or have to confront that fear. I could continue on, free from human or vampire limits, in whatever new culture develops.

[calalily]

Again, I would no longer be myself as a zombie, I would be something entirely new. As such, my original human self would not be trapped in a shambling, "mindless" existence, my new self would be.

Might as well be dead - if the original self is burnt away, choice loses all relevance.  There's longer survival with the vampire - that is you - or the instant snuffing out of your personality.  If I wouldn't be around to enjoy the new self, then I would not make the choice to be that way.

I would be miserable eventually, no matter how much I was able to gain. As for zombies, what I've noticed is that after the zombie transformation they seem to reach a kind of stasis point after which there is no further degeneration.

For me, extra time for skill building would be the bonus that takes away the rub of eternal life.  It may not be enjoyable over the long term - and thus that's where the ease of suicide becomes another added benefit.

As for swarms, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's simply an example of that emerging zombie community spirit!

No, this is basic animalistic predator behaviour - no more.  We might want to ascribe some sort of community ideas, but they're basically paysites milling around until they join the mighty TSR.

While it's true that there would be grave (ha, ha, I'm so funny) loses on both sides, I'm still probably going to put my money in the zombie camp. Vampires don't come off well in an "us versus them" scenario either, especially considering their more limited numbers. While powerful, they do have liabilities that are easy to take advantage of.

The other problem with this is the animation of dead flesh - for vampires, that is sustained by blood - without it the body dies.  Zombies however, are animated regardless of how much brains they consume, and it is possible that the animation and consciousness continues after the brain is gone, and the body can't move.  Trapped forever in the cage of the flesh so to speak.  I would take the quick and sure death over the possibility of that any day.  

This assumes that zombies would actually care about fitting in to human society in order to hide among them, or to be more effective predators.

 

I lament the loss of tophats and monocles around the world.  But some sort of subterfuge is necessary to survive the human mob - or to rather be the last person converted - this is the only guaranteed method of survival.  There could be 3 vampires in my neighbourhood, but I'll never know - they have the survival advantage of subterfuge.

I agree that the recognition and experience of living for eternity is a horrifying thing, and I would prefer not to face such an existence at all.

Agreed - I would never willingly choose such a thing, but given a choice, would not throw away the benefits of vampirism (despite the faults) in order to keep vestiges of pleasure - rather than ditch my personality and consciousness and give my body over to an infection to drive around.

The zombie that I would become is not the me that was but is a new and distinct creature.

If the zombie is not you, your consciousness, then it is not a valid choice - you have the choice of vampire or oblivion. Zombies provide the body to something else that is not, in essence, you - and so there can be no choice to become a zombie.

[Jojoba]

Very very interesting discussion  :wink: As it stands, it looks like most people prefer vampires? Well vampires have been portrayed more and glamourised more in the media so you are more likely to prefer a vampire. But in the origin of both creatures, they are actually very very similar...depending on what you read, of course, but genuinely are created by another being and are the living dead, whose only purpose is to in some way prey of humans. Meh its just the media (and by media i mean modern day films, and mostly romantic victorian books) has glamourised vampires more. Oh the power of the media..

[Anouk]

I've heard a theory that a vampire 'being' is not the one of the former human, but that of a demonic spirit. The human spirit is killed, and the soul and body are preserved and occupied by the demon. This entity is a faulty trinity, because one of three does not belong there, and has forcefully entered and destroyed the original. Therefore it dies but is not really dead.

Human: human spirit, human soul, human body --> life
Death of a human: spirit dies, soul moves on, body dies, trinity broken
Vampire: demonic spirit, human soul, human body. forcefully formed, therefore not fully sustainable. A sort of halflife.

Something like this should be killed out of mercy.

[calalily]

Well vampires have been portrayed more and glamourised more in the media so you are more likely to prefer a vampire. But in the origin of both creatures, they are actually very very similar...depending on what you read, of course, but genuinely are created by another being and are the living dead, whose only purpose is to in some way prey of humans.

I don't glamourise them at all - but faced with two bad choices, I have considered which has the most desirable traits.  I am working from the general body of mythology of vampires, including the Transylvanian legends concerning them - which are not at all favourable, as well as the Albanian ideas of vampire spirits (which resemble Lord Voldemort in his incorporeal form - feeding on the blood of small creatures - souls that are bound to the earth, angry and tormented).  

I also take into consideration the legends surrounding Vlad Teppes (Vlad the Impaler) as well as Elizabeth Bathory, and Vera Renczei (sp?). I have purposefully not mentioned Anne Rice, as I think this is a romantic fantasy - that of superhuman strength and little drawbacks.  I am also considering the deeply stupid vampire of popular myth - the one with the easily twitched curtains, and random peices of wood that can be made into a makeshift cross.

I am also considering some of the West African tales of zombies, those poisoned by hougans and made into slaves, as well as some of the Vodoun legends concerning them, and some of the writings of medieval "mages" who believed that they existed.  I'm also going on the modern idea of infection as a way in which the "zombie virus" may be transmitted.

I've heard a theory that a vampire personality is not the one of the former human, but that of a demonic spirit. The human spirit is killed, and the soul remains, upon wich the entity can base it's memories and behaviour.

That's the main theory on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  It doesn't show up in any mythology that I have currently read - and it gets quite obscure, so it's possible I haven't read it.