So it begins... Or something slightly less dramatic

[Lethe]

angelica,

ok, so I slipped and ranted.
at least it made me feel better

What I meant to say was this:
Yippee, you stupid little egotistical bacteria, you and your attitude deserve to be hung from a tree and set on fire.


also,

I partly understand Liegenschonheit. I do. It tends to get annoying, having to click through sites, especially the flash ones where you can't link the actual page the mesh is on. Not to even mention the pay meshes.

However. I also get cc creators. And so does Liegenshonheit. The fact that marvine's meshes, for instance, *aren't* included, means she knows very well that it'd upset him, and that she respects that. Or that she doesn't want to get in trouble with Insim.
So why not respect other free mesh creators?
It's been stated that HP, to name one example, will not be taking down her meshes. They're easy to access, her policy is pretty damn liberal, but somehow she got the wrong end of the deal.
I have no problem with meshes being included when they're no longer available, or hard to get at, or hidden behind pay screens. But I really don't see why you have to basically tread on someone's TOS, just for the heck of it.
What good does it serve to piss meshers off? Without pretty meshes, there's no pretty recolours either. Meshers and recolourers have to find ways to work together. And respecting each other is one of the basics. Or does everyone want to make dresses for maxis meshes?

[redisenchanted]

Marvine is a she in fact and her meshes can be included if I'm not mistaken, that was part of Beos' announcement. Liegen explained that she hadn't uploaded meshes for all of her old things yet.

[yippee]

Yippee, you stupid little egotistical bacteria, you and your attitude deserve to be hung from a tree and set on fire.

I know I was harsh to HP but apart from her TOS I take it back too after your fashion Lethe.  Honestly there is no balanced facio ut facias when it comes to
HP's creative talent, I can't give anything that is as good as her CCs.

[liegenschonheit]

Actually, the reason I haven't included Marvine's mesh yet is because I'm lazy and haven't gone through to include meshes in previously uploaded work. Rest assured that I do not intend to discriminate either way with this one. I'm not trying to piss anyone off or step on anyone's toes, but I can't please everyone and playing favourites would just make this way worse than it is already. Lethe, I am a huge fan of yours and have been for ages, so I hate to think that doing something like this is pissing you off, same goes for HP. But I am not going to back down. As soon as I start picking and choosing who's meshes to include and who's TOSes to respect, then the shit hits the fan for real.

Also, on a side note, due to demands of the community, Marvine and BBB have given their permission for their meshes to be redistributed with credit and a link. Also, even before that, and before I even asked for it, BBB contacted me and said that if I wanted it would be okay to redistribute the meshes, so this is not me playing favourites.

[calalily]

It's nice to see that in everyone's hatred of paysites, they've forgotten that the alternative is free creators.  It's also wonderful to see the vehemence, anger, and utter lack of respect that the community extends toward a free creator.  Never done anything but give away nice stuff for free and try to help, and tried to offer a fairly rational explanation despite being upset... which is responded to with nastiness and ire. Typical.

I'm not sure why I was expecting anyone here to have the slightest sense of honour or decency.  The fact that my mere suggestion that someone ask permission has been met with ridicule drives that home.  I feel a bit silly for expecting some sort of conversation that might come to a point of compromise between everyone involved.  But there are those here who simply want to tear others down, no matter what they do.........But violating someone's terms, when that is the -only- limitation and the mesh is freely available doesn't make any fucking sense except for encouraging laziness.  Yeah, you have to click two more times.  Poor baby.

Perhaps you should actually read my post - I didn't shit on you, or say anything nasty of the sort. Nor did I spew any hatred, or disrespect.  But what if after this rant (and regardless of what you say about leaving your meshes up no matter what - because drama whores do it all the time) Liegon decides to put you on the list of those who may at any possible time go apeshit, excluding you from the list of reasonable people because of your little spit and because you may pull your stuff?

That's what other people are going to get.  

As for asking permission - if you insist we all do "click two more times" - then apparently you aren't going to give permission either.  

And as explained previously - it isn't always as easy as "click two more times" - what about the 2 weeks when I couldn't download from MTS2 without a 503 timeout?

[Scratch]

Hmmm...   :?  

This has got to be one of the more confusing threads for me. Maybe i'm being a bit simplistic here.... but hasn't it been established that EA actually owns the .package files. They made it quite clear with Pets Bodyshop that they wanted all .package files necessary for the downloader to be included...

EA must be laughing all the way to the bank... If they actually had to host all the CC that's been created since TS2 came out,  it would have severely cut into their profits....

I can understand creators who don't want other people to take credit for their creations... it's happened to me a few times in life... I've done the work but someone else takes the credit, and it's not a nice feeling...

However... how can there be any TOS's or restrictions placed on something that isn't owned by the creator....  Kind of like me offering to sell you a house I don't own or allow you to use a car i don't own

Like i said, maybe a bit simplistic, but unless/until EA changes it's policy about ownership of the .package files this debate is rather pointless.... EA could gather up all the CC tomorrow and put it behind a pay wall and there is absolutely nothing the creators or paysite operators could do about it....

Just my 2 cents

[BlackPearl]

Damn straight, Liegen.  You go girl.

Marvine and BeOSboxboy have really the best body meshes available (save Warlokk's) and they have made their TOS all inclusive with credits and links.  I have great respect for these particular meshers because they have always wanted their work to be free (so far).  They have never bitched about what you do with their work and the only thanks they want is, "thanks".  I recolor their work a lot and they are both ALWAYS thankful and say really nice things about my creations on their meshes.

I was ranked on once when I created an alpha for a dress.  I happened to be similar to another "artists" rendition and she rode bloody hell to the site owner that I "stole" her alpha.  The site owner pulled MY creation because this bitch thought mine was hers.  The fact that I was called a theif pissed me off pretty bad because I hand made that alpha myself.

So...in a way I am completely sypathetic to creators when someone steals their work and claims it.  BUT I cannot understand when a creator doesn't want to allow their stuff to be used with FULL CREDIT!!

[HideTheRum]

BlackPearl, I think all the issue is really in the way this thing was made. HP never said she'd never give permission, it looks to me she in fact said quite the opposite. She basically said that if someone she knew and respected, like Liegenschonheit, asked, she'd be willing to bend her own terms and give permission. Then what happens is that Liegen shows up and kind of dismissively says ouch, sorry for uploading your meshes without even pm-ing you. Now. I find it so very human and understandable for HP at that point to go "wait, WTF? you already did that?" ":shock:  "

Why this seems to be so not easy to understand really is beyond me. Like I've already said, we're just talking about little, very very little signs of respect for FREE creators. Approval and respect don't always come together, you may not approve but if you're fair, you'll still respect, or so I believe.

[Doursim]

The fact that I was called a theif pissed me off pretty bad because I hand made that alpha myself.

I love that. How many shapes can a neckline be?  Don't worry though, I stole it first  I steal everything!

I want to say that: while I respect HP for her meshing abilities, (which I could never hope to have)  I find it deeply annoying that she, and other creators, won't allow mesh distribution with or without credit.  I understand the creators need for ego petting.  Not many of us have the balls of Carlew, to keep creating even with so many people telling you you suck, or worse   :shock: But to be honest, I would sooner not recolor a mesh I can't redistribute, just out of principle.  I want to keep things as simple for my visitors as possible.  If others have the same policies as me, then those who choose to not allow mesh distribution are really shooting themselves in the foot... if what your seeking is popularity.  

Simchic is a great example.  Most people arn't members there, their stuff isn't really worth paying for (since most of it is availible for free elsewhere) but their meshes are so widly used... there arn't many people who havn't heard of the site.

[lingeringviolet]

I'm curious why creators need to have TOSs to begin with. The way I look at it is you like the game(you do remember it's just a game, right?), you think it would be cool to make x item and share it with everyone. As long as you get full credit for being the original creator of x item, I don't see what your gripe is. Liegen is even going beyond that and giving links back, I think that's more than fair.

Also, I wasn't being mean or disrespectful to anyone and if it came across that way, I do apologize. I have several things by both HP and Lethe in my game and their efforts are greatly appreciated (and I almost always hit the thanks button), just not their attitudes. While what you make is really nifty, I think perhaps you should stand back and look at the big picture. You're creating for a video game, supposedly because you enjoy doing it and like knowing that others use your things. I think the long TOSs are just plain silly and make you look pretentious.

(Note that I'm using "you" in a general sense.)

[rickets]

So, we're destroying free sites now too?  

I thought the entire purpose of this site was to make available items that were otherwise unavailable without a credit card.  

People here are griping about creators wanting a download link back to their free sites where they host their free meshes.  Please.  I signed on for destroying paysites not to discourage people who make free meshes from putting up websites and offering me free stuff.

[Doursim]

Is sharing meshes really destroying free sites?

[rickets]

Why bother to create a website if no one is going to visit?  (Suddenly thought of that tree falling in the forest saying).

If the only thing that someone wants after devoting hours/days in creating something is for me to press my finger down and to go to their website then I can pay that price.  It's a nicety.

The big concern early on about this site was that paysite owners might stop creating once their meshes were liberated.  It hasn't happened.  Yet.  But I think the relationship with free site creators is a much more fragile thing when the only thing they get out for their time creating is a message in a guestbook.

[Quinctia]

We're not talking about redistributing the meshes uncredited.  They're being linked back.  If you download a neat looking item, you're likely to follow the link and explore the site it came from.

I can't be the only one who'll go to download something, see I need to depend on another site to make sure the item works, and then not get the item or go to the other site?  It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I don't really need any more downloads, and I certainly don't need any more broken downloads.  I'd just rather not add in another variable.

If you're all for letting someone play in your sandbox and share the results (you allow recolors), then why in hell wouldn't you want to make sure the recolor was immediately reusable?  I can get not liking recolors, period, but jeez.

I'm sure this is why Maxis made BodyShop include meshes in the package files.  It's annoying as hell when people share things that don't immediately work in-game.

[ViolentDucky]

I like the idea. Shuffling and reshuffling (because I must have missed it the first time :roll:)  through pages of damn-near identical meshes isn't really my thing. Nor is following links to long dead sites (one in particular, SIMsentanious, or whatever, pissed me off the most. Oh, and I'm still mad about it).

Finding FA_randomnumbersdumbnameMESH.package is even more annoying. I think, MTS2 is the only place that doesn't bother me- if the creator sends me the meshes page and not the home page.

I think (trying to think as a mesher would) a shout-out that, hey, I used one of your meshes in my work on my site and included it in the download, would be enough. Because I can understand why you wouldn't want your stuff distributed EVERYWHERE and no one tell you. And I can see why they wouldn't want there meshes edited- it's way too easy to add a bow, and claim everything as yours.

But to skin, and add the mesh in the download, with a link back to original site on the bottem of the download...is fine to me. It gives credit, and is a nice and neat way do it. And I'll go to that site anyway to see what they creators ORIGINALLY did with the mesh if I liked it so much.

I've never redistributed meshes- I wish I had the balls to though.