So it begins... Or something slightly less dramatic

[Anouk]

If creators have 10 mile TOS and it bothers you, drop them a pm and let them know how annoying and restricting it is. And that you won't be using their stuff this way because you can't be sure it will always be available.

I'm not really bothered because I hardly ever recolor anything that's not mine. and my stuff can be either included and linked back to, if credited.
Less bandwisth for me

[redisenchanted]

I just don't use any custom meshes on my sims I share anymore. The problem is that I would have to jump through all kinds of annoying hoops to avoid including them since I have Pets. I also upload things to the exchange now and creators really can't stand that.

I don't think liegen is doing anything wrong, but I'm not willing to go through the hassle she will. I really wish creators would get over it, and make it easier for everyone.

[calalily]

I don't really see it as a problem if someone disappears, but if it's accessible and it's free, why?

I do understand where you're coming from and wanting to make things easy for your downloaders... but I -am- kind of upset by this.  It's your site - why NOT pick and choose based on whether the mesh is going to be accessible?  If it goes down or whatever, fine, but.... err.....  why post meshes that are freely and easily available, when it is not necessary and will only serve to upset the creators?  I do understand a mesh in a haystack things, and sites going down, and I hate pay sites as much as the rest of ya'll, but this just doesn't make sense to me.  It's just not necessary, and the only real justification I can see behind it is enabling laziness.

Like I said, I ain't gonna take my ball and go home, and I try not to let stupid shit like this get to me, but I find myself continually disappointed in this community... and I find myself wondering why I spend my time creating for it more and more.  If even creators I held in high esteem will simply ignore the (what I thought were quite open) policies on something freely given, what's the point, exactly, in sharing my work with the community?

Actually, I think that liegen has done it the right way. I personally think it would have caused more angst and more shit fights if she made an exception for a few creators, rather than treating them in a blanket manner.  Otherwise, then she'd have to put a list saying "The following people are obviously or possibly unstable or mean, and therefore, I will be violating only their TOS, whereas, I have permission from this list of stable, kind people".

Singling people out will make them feel like they are even more alienated.  And indeed, there are links back to the original content.  If I find a nice recolour, etc. then I usually check back with the original creator, see what other shinies they have.  I would then get the information and see all the stuff you want me to see.

As for your personal issues with this, HP - come on - almost everybody who has downloaded knows your stuff.  I personally have everything of yours on MTS2 already (excluding your wall and floor set), and I believe I have thanked you for every single item since I got broadband. I don't think that this is an issue, and if I downloaded from liegen and installed, it would merely ask me if I wanted to overwrite the previous file.

As for the laziness of downloaders - it's not really laziness that is the issue.  At times, I don't have the time to go and do the mesh hunt, and there are some things I haven't downloaded because I couldn't find the mesh (some people put a link to their front page, and sometimes I find something long after it's front page news).  There's also bandwidth issues, or the 503 timeouts that one gets with MTS2 - if I didn't have broadband, I would be pulling my hair out about those.

Sometimes a site is not available - but I am not available at all times to go and check where it is.  Or, it may not be available for a couple of days, and I don't even see the content because I've forgot.

[BlueSoup]

There is an item on Liegen's site (a tophat thing) that had a link to the mesh on MTS2.  I checked out her site the other day and clicked that link to download the mesh, but guess what?  It's been deleted.

[dorquemada]

You people read them TOS'es? Really? Because all those readmeplzreally!!!!.txt or rulez!!!!.htm go straight to recycle bin as soon as I unzip the file - with exception of hack descriptions, of course. I cannot care less what tool a mesher used, I'm not bloody bothered by creator's opinions on fat or gay sims -- as soon as a file gets on my HD, it's mine to do what I damn well please.  

So, from where I, simple user, stand -- while HP does have a point about a mesh getting possibly updated or improved, I find liegen's rule way more user-friendly, because if I see a link like "13rd mesh in the second row from the list on the www.simbum.com", I think "Don't need it". I also agree with calalily's post before - it's all or nothing. Singling out particular creators as 'possibly unstable and untrustworthy' isn't a cool thing to do. Besides, even if you are 100% sure now that your stuff is forever, there's nothing forever on Internet. Very unstable, place, this. You never know what can happen.

[HystericalParoxysm]

It's nice to see that in everyone's hatred of paysites, they've forgotten that the alternative is free creators.  It's also wonderful to see the vehemence, anger, and utter lack of respect that the community extends toward a free creator.  Never done anything but give away nice stuff for free and try to help, and tried to offer a fairly rational explanation despite being upset... which is responded to with nastiness and ire. Typical.

I'm not sure why I was expecting anyone here to have the slightest sense of honour or decency.  The fact that my mere suggestion that someone ask permission has been met with ridicule drives that home.  I feel a bit silly for expecting some sort of conversation that might come to a point of compromise between everyone involved.  But there are those here who simply want to tear others down, no matter what they do.

Asking that meshes that are freely and easily available not be distributed is a small thing, and not an undue stipulation.    It is the lack of respect and courtesy from one creator to another that shocks and upset me most.  I expected better from liegenschonheit.

The policy against redistribution of meshes is quite common in this community, held by many many creators.  Remember in your zeal and hatred of paysites that the alternative is free creators.  Yes, there are many who allow mesh distribution, but many do not.  If something isn't free, easily findable, or has been pulled, of course, I understand that.  But violating someone's terms, when that is the -only- limitation and the mesh is freely available doesn't make any fucking sense except for encouraging laziness.  Yeah, you have to click two more times.  Poor baby.

Meh, screw it, if you just want shitty paysites meshes to redistribute and whatever's left, fine.  I got better shit I can do with my time than make crap for people who clearly don't care one bit for artistic karma.  Hope all of you enjoy trying to fingerpaint in your next life.

[Got_Nerd]

.. :shock:

If you ignore people blatantly stealing your work, why are you all uppity about people blatantly not stealing your work...?

 :?

ETA: Liegen, judging by certain people's responses, I think the dramatics in the title were about right..

[dorquemada]

Jeez, dude. Chill?


I blame corporations, monopolies and other filthy capitalista swines. It's their fault copyright issues got  artificially bloated to ridiculous proportions (probably one can copyright even one's sound of sneezing now - and sue everyone who sneezes alike), now normal people are taking a bad example and overreacting. Shame, really. ;(

[yippee]

I don't think liegen is doing anything wrong, but I'm not willing to go through the hassle she will. I really wish creators would get over it, and make it easier for everyone.

Amen, word for word.  Hysterical Paroxysm you may go to CC creator's hell,
and please give hugs and kisses to Hchangeri for me. This is just my opinion,
and it does not reflect the whole PMBD.

[fourohfourerror]

Really, I can understand why HP is pissed off.  I love the idea of a site where I don't have to go mesh hunting.  It makes me angry to be told, "Oh, go to Peggy for the mesh.  It's a clothes mesh, and they all look similiar, but you'll be able to find it, right? Right!"  So I love what Liegen is doing.  But HP has never asked for a dime, and although her TOS is long, at least it's a funny read.  And basically, all it says is, "Don't upload my meshes, share my recolours w/ credit, use my textures in whole or part for free sites, use in pics, stories, movies (which some artists actually say not to, wtf?)."  She's actually a lot more lenient than a lot of creators.  But everyone is crying because it's sooo long.  As much as I love what Liegen is doing, I can comprehend why HP is saying, "Wait, what the hell?".  But what I can't understand is why her voicing rationally why she doesn't like it is cause for everyone to start saying, "Yeah, screw those free creators!  I don't care what they say!"

/drunken rant

[redisenchanted]

OK, some people were mean to HP, who is a great, free creator. But I think refusing to allow mesh redistribution with full credit and links is unworkable. I love HP's stuff and used to use it all the time in my uploaded sims. Now, I don't, because it's too much hassle. It will only get worse with the next Exp. Object creators have had to deal with mesh inclusion from the start. Including meshes with body shop items should have been done from the start, now it's causing all kinds of pain and anguish when it shouldn't.

I like HP, she's generous and creative, but obviously this is a huge sore point. I don't see things going back to the way she would like them to be and though it's unfortunate it is so upsetting to her, that's how it is.

[BlackPearl]

That is so true.  HP has some nice things, some not. As does any creator.  WTF is wrong with redistribution with FULL CREDIT AND LINKS???  

I don't really understand why HP is angry.  THis is a FREE community, because selling this shit is illegal.  SO...

being that HP's stuff is free, what is the problem with a quality recolorist distributing her meshes with recolors with full honors to HP???

I create stuff (a lot of stuff) and they are all recolors.  I ask that the mesh artists TOS are heeded, but I couldn't care less what anyone does with my alphas and textures.  I do my recolors because I like doing the art stuff and being creative.  It's fun to share them.  I sucked at first but I am pretty good now.  I have fans!   :roll:  ROFLMAO!!  And they all have the right to do whatever they want with my stuff.  Upload it with sims or lots, because who gives a shit??

All I asked is for a little credit and a link to my stuff.  Hell, I probably don't get that half the time.  LOL  BUT, I don't give a shit.  WHY???  Because I like making the stuff and sharing it.

If one is in this for the money or "prestige"  (OMG ROFLMAO!!!) then they are in the wrong line of hobby.

JMO

[Lethe]

Note: below is a generalisation of all downloaders. I'm sure you know of yourself if you're one of them. Let's just say I can't be bothered to nuance, since i'm pissed.

[rant]

Ok, WTF is wrong with asking for the teensiest little something back?
A lot of people in this thread are looking very much like a bunch of whining brats. Sure, they get lots of CC (great, free CC) and free help from people like HP, and it's never enough.

"What! ONOES! I have to READ something?"
"ONOES, I have to respect someone's wishes?!!!"

Fuck that, you want everything, and you want it on your own damn terms.
Nevermind that it was given away free. Nevermind that a lot of meshers do it, not for the money, but for what little thanks they get. I know HP does, and so do I.
But no, pushing a thanks button is too much to ask, finding a rar-extractor is too much to ask.
Hey, let's wish all cc creators to hell for even voicing their opinion in a rational way!
How dare they have a TOS! How dare they ask for a little respect!

And then, when you've got someone to the point where they give up, you complain that they're dramawhores.
Lovely.

[/rant]

[missangelica]

Actually Lieg is just going back to the old school ways of making recolors of others' meshes.. including the link to the creator's site on your site and in the zip/rar.  I hope more readopt this practice.

I don't know if you guys have realized but this community is filled with a lot of "colorful" personalities.  Off the top of my head only HP comes to mind as a free creator that will stay free.  I can't stay with any degree of confidence whether any other creator will not go off the further deep end and pull his/her site down or from a collective site like MtS2.  What good is a recolor without a mesh to go with it?

What this boils down to is control.  When uploading to the interweb you relinquish your control.  All the fist waving, screaming, and crying cannot change what others will do.  You can try to take it to court but you better have the buck to back it up.

ETA:  And Lethe, I know you're upset but to blast a generalization that, as typical of a generalization, does not apply to the greater whole does not help matters.

[redisenchanted]

OK, first off. I've never downloaded anything from MTS2 without saying thank-you and often I leave a grateful comment.

Those who refuse to allow their meshes to be redistributed even with link and credit are fighting a losing battle. Even BeosBoxBoy (who made some great posts over here before the great purge) has let go and allows any free site except the exchange to include his meshes. Now that's a policy I can live with.

So when using a creator's meshes in a sim using the tools provided by EA I have the following choices:

1. Go ahead and use it, giving a link and credit. Chances are, people will want more of creator X's work and follow the link, give them all sorts of warm fuzzies, etc.

2. Jump through all kinds of hoops: maybe download "Legacy Body Shop" and copy and paste all sorts of files into it everytime I make a sim. Or I can export and re-import the sim, purging all meshes.

3. Don't use that creator's meshes at all. Then no one visits their site as a result of my creation, no one even knows what a great job they have done, will ever thank them or give them any feedback.

Seems to me there's a fundamental question creators have to ask themselves. Do they want their work shared or not? If it's a lot of bother, people will either disregard the terms of use, with or without credit and links, or not use it at all. Is that really the choice you want to leave them with?

After Seasons, we'll be 2 expansions into a body shop that includes meshes. It's only going to get worse. I'm having a hard time understanding why including meshes with full credit and links is such a devestating thing. I'm not trying to be rude, as I said, my solution is not to use those meshes. It can't be what a generous creator like HP or Lethe for that matter really wants, is it?