TSR: IN UR COMPUTER, VIRUSIN' UR FILES!

[Missbonbon]

Explain to me how that is helping? Aren't we discussing this issue because we want suggestions as how to improve the situation?

I was simply being frank and brutal in how I sometimes see discussions progress on this board. Sometimes users, old and new, post relevant and serious topics; the first two or three reply's deal with the topic in a serious way... but whatever is said within a page or two the thread will be filled with wild conspiracy theories, gossip and slander which; although entertaining provides no substance to - as you said: Improve the situation.

Yes, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black here? One of the issues brought up here, is to not be so nit picky about other members. Yet, here you are, basically calling members wild consipracy theorists, whilst I am supposed to not comment on that fact? I applaud you realizing that you have been doing that all day, but to fix a problem, you can't just tell everyone else they are wrong, whilst you keep continuing the behaviors that you yourself are smacking down.

Lack of intelligence eh?

I never stated that there is a lack of intellegence; in fact many, Many of the members here are very intellegent and logical people. The issue arises when the intellegent people like yourself, do not step up from the drama monglers and say intellegent and logical things.

As for the missions statement; I thank you for bringing it up. Our goal is to destroy paysites not to delve into the drama filled wallows of Atwa's love life or the elastin concentrations of OpenHouseJack's rectum.

TSR is intellegent in the way they fight; so therefore we need to be intellegent as well. What does all the infighting and nitpicking actually achieve (Please don't comment on the irony since I confess that I ahve been doing this all day )

Actually you did state there was a lack of intelligence. You specificall stated:

I admit that the balance of fun that you describe is extremely beneficial to the cause but the lack of balance between entertainment and intellegence is what has caused all of the stirring that is happening.

Implying that members are either funny, or intelligent. Never the two.

No hard feelings though.  If I haven't been able to have a hard time sleeping I probably wouldn't have even noticed. I would actually like to know if this issue can come to a close? I think some members and lurkers have expressed their opinions, and I just get the feeling that the discussion is probably wearing on other people on the board.

[CatOfWar]

The FOJ has given permission to move the free site list to ARR and sticky it.  He thinks it is redundant, unnecessary, and he doesn't want to maintain it, but he's given permission.  So I'll go ask Ash how one goes about moving a thread...

edit:

Anyone know how effective the "prettiest free site finds" thread is?  Do new people look at it?  It serves a very similar purpose.  I think "prettiest" and "site list" are different enough in purpose to warrant two threads, I'm just curious how well "prettiest" works.  If it's just a place for us to find new nifty, that's great, but if it was effective outreach, that would be even better.

[redraw]

Funny, I had the EA logo asking me to "Challenge Everything" from the base game to Makin Magic.  Then again, after the EA Games logo, the Maxis logo appears (which wouldn't be repeated until Spore, where the EA logo suffers from the Big Bang and it sucks in the Maxis logo). Well, here's the "B" List, which also has Sims 2 links (One of those cases that I knew I was missing something in my post) http://theblist.com/index2.html .  I take no responsibility as it isn't my own site, just was remembering a fond "Friend" when I started to look for custom content.

I still find it funny that EA did implement some stuff for the Sims2 that was CC for the Sims 1: The skilling for cooking mod (Forgot who did it) and the multifridge from CnC creations (with some of those meals appearing in Sims2).  The rebuildable car is shades of the motorcycle from Simstitution.

I do ooh and aah to both of the prettiest thread, but I haven't downloaded from either thread because either A)It's in Part 3 and I don't have Sims3 and B) I've been mainly doing asylum challenges, though I should poke through Part 2 to see if I can find some good starters in an active link.

[dstar]

Thank you Redraw and CatofWar.
  EA has done that with every Sims Game- for instance the Baby Stuff from the TS2 Store - Hope Baylor and Rebekah from Insim did a baby set with a swing, and baby bouncer and play mat long before EA- their set also had a playpen that allowed the baby/toddler to gain fun, and a diaper bag that functioned as a changing table. Almost all the cool ideas EA has come up with since they bought Maxis and Sims was no longer Maxis have been done better, first by a free creator. Half the shit in all 3 AL Patches for TS2 were things that Pescado fixed first and better. It has always been that way and it probably always will- at least until all of the people who are coming up with the ideas get bored, frustrated or are taken away by real life issues, or the Sims tanks as a series.

[ShanOw]

I highly doubt you're going to be able to make statements like the those on the previous page without starting the very drama you're trying to avoid.

Very true, very true. But I suppose that "attention seeking" and "inflammatory" up front is less attention seeking than posting stuff anonymously on SimSecret wouldn't you agree?

...but to fix a problem, you can't just tell everyone else they are wrong, whilst you keep continuing the behaviors that you yourself are smacking down.

This comment is almost a metaphor for the points that started this whole mini-debate'acle. It especially reflects the piracy comments but lets not go into that again; as you said, this discussion is probably not endearing to other members.

"Stupidity flourishes when intellegent men (and women) stay silent" is probably a good note to end this mini drama-saga, it outlines everyones point don't you think?

[Moune]

A few thoughts:

Glad this thread went from “Bleh, another typical T$R asskisser at work again” and “PMBD is what it is. Period” – and those are quotes – to a real discussion about issues.

Keep the 12’s and Pescado apart. He’s already said clearly that he doesn’t want them on his site, so there’s really no use debating whether PMBD should accommodate them. The problem must be dealt with elsewhere – like MissBonBon suggests.

I didn’t like the talk about arring the game, either, and thought it rather stupid for a bunch of people who are holding up the EULA as a legal reason for why they are against paysites.

The secret says PMBD has lost credibility. It maybe talking about credibility with community leaders, but the issue is broader. PMBD has definitely lost credibility with me and I’m no leader. I’ve mentioned this before, but it continues to be a problem. There are simply too many cases where unfounded speculation quickly becomes accepted as fact or where somebody accuses a pay creator of stealing or similar without any shred of evidence. Those cases are not just dumb, they are also absolutely detrimental and must be avoided, and the vast majority here are intelligent enough to THINK before making accusations – or to raise a sceptical finger when others do it.

As for the drama and the talk about pay peoples private lives, I’d say keep it. Together with all the witty comments it’s what makes this place entertaining. And entertainment is – also – what attracts people here. Just keep it civil and sensitive – and leave the speculations out.

Dump the 100+ long threads about TSR or Peggy atrocities and allow people to start new threads when a new issue arises. Nobody – absolutely nobody – is going to read through 138 pages which also contains a good deal of off-topic banter, if they just pop in to find out about the latest drama or outrages. And that’s another thing that PMBD used to be good for: Information about all those topics that weren’t allowed in other forums. (Incidentally I recently noticed that old-timer Lemmiwinks posted a new TSR thread without getting torn absolutely to pieces for it. Double standards, anyone?).

The stickied freesite list is great. Let’s have more stickied information. Hecubus once made a list with calculations of how much various paysites were charging and raking in. That should be at the top of ARR! – for instance together with accounts/resumes of previous paysite scandals. There are plenty (anybody remember the Hern Project?), and the information should be available for anybody who wants to do some digging. That is another way to undermine paysite credibility and goodwill.

Hi DoW, good to see you too. 

[neriana]

The secret says PMBD has lost credibility. It maybe talking about credibility with community leaders, but the issue is broader. PMBD has definitely lost credibility with me and I’m no leader. I’ve mentioned this before, but it continues to be a problem. There are simply too many cases where unfounded speculation quickly becomes accepted as fact or where somebody accuses a pay creator of stealing or similar without any shred of evidence. Those cases are not just dumb, they are also absolutely detrimental and must be avoided, and the vast majority here are intelligent enough to THINK before making accusations – or to raise a sceptical finger when others do it.

Could you point to some of those? I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, I honestly can't remember any cases where there wasn't good evidence and the speculation wasn't quashed relatively quickly. The only times I can remember are when people were at least half-joking, or where they were obviously indulging in rampant speculation and not trying to convince anyone of anything.

The phorum is not policed, except by its members. And, speaking for myself, it's not niceness that I can't stand: it's dishonesty. I'm not kidding when I say that, in my years playing Sims 2, almost every other forum in the Sims community that I've visited has a community based on passive-aggressiveness, lies and asskissing. That is what I personally am horrified of. People who have been here for a long time know that we can share our opinions and even argue with each other frankly and honestly without one of us then proceeding to decide that the arguer is the spawn of Satan who should be cast into the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. We might be pissed off at what someone says but we'll try to give them the benefit of the doubt and not think they're completely and totally evil because of one post because, ya know, this is a website and you can't hear other people's tones of voice. Also because human beings in the real world are allowed to disagree. This is very nearly the only site in the entire Sims community where that's the case.

In other words, in my considered opinion as a gamer who frequents lots of game forums, and as an internet user who visits lots of forums not connected to gaming, PMBD is actually the nicest, kindest, most civil site in the entire Sims community. The ways in which people seem to want us to change, to make us more like the rest of the community, would, I truly believe, make us actually meaner.

[Moune]

Neriana, the only ones I can find without spending too much time with the search button are two that I know I responded to myself. One is to do with some windows by Spaik at TSR and the other is a case where it was wrongfully said that SimPE doesn’t allow creators to make pay objects with it. You’ll have to search the posts before mine to find the remarks – and after, if you want the reactions.

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2399.msg143092.html#msg143092

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,2366.120.html

And while you’re doing that do also notice in the second thread how Numenor gets called Class A fuckwit, disgusting lowlife, tasteless and other similar things and gets wished upon that somebody he knows and loves dies of ass cancer. All because he allegedly says ‘Fuck you’ to all pirates. Yes, I realize that some confused Beos’ comment about ass cancer with what Numenor says, and yes, at least Nouk questions whether it really is Numenor. But it is still dumb not to get your facts straight before lashing out and out of line to use that kind of language for something so small. I know I was disgusted by it. I expect others were too, which then goes back to the point about being civil.

Both these examples are a few months old. I have seen others when I have occasionally checked in here, but I honestly haven’t had the time or energy to comment and enter into these kinds of discussions.

Edited to get the liks right

[Missbonbon]

I will jump in and say that when we were discussing Spaik and her windows, you had caught while I was very busy in real the world and didn't have time to properly explain myself. I even stated in that thread that you were misunderstanding what I was trying to get at Moune. I stated, from what I had read was that her windows had not differed. No where in that thread did I mention that she was a thief. You just read a couple of my sentences that had the word theft in them, and assumed. Even after you posted the screenshots I even thanked you for proving me wrong, and providing evidence. Just for easy reference, here were those sentences you assumed by:

It was Spaik, here. I guess they figured the sets "differed" enough to not be considered theft.  

Even though it is true that it may not take that much to create expansion sets of windows/doors, it was still done by Marylou and Numenor before Spaik. The theft is more or less referred to them because Spaik's set I think has only one or two windows that differ from theirs or is not similar to theirs.

And even then, you just pointed them out. You didn't even comment on them. In no way do I see that as actually accusing her of theft, but I was going more or less by what I read elsewhere.

If you really want to re-hash an issue from almost 7 months ago be my guest. I'm telling you and here and now, you misunderstood me. Again, even with the whole Numenor thing, you still misunderstood me. I specifically stated I was talking about CEP and you just wanted to yell at me "No your wrong! SimPe says this!"

Honestly Moune, most of our interactions have been off base and just been misunderstandings. When I read those threads I see myself saying one thing, and you say another, on completely different topics. I would like to think that both of those issues were solved, since I basically stated that you were right about Spaik, and that if you wanted I would be willing to lay off Numenor. (Just for disclaimer, I don't remember telling him to fuck off. Just that he was an ass for what he said.)

It just seems to me like you feel like those discussions weren't brought to a close.

Could you point to some of those? I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, I honestly can't remember any cases where there wasn't good evidence and the speculation wasn't quashed relatively quickly. The only times I can remember are when people were at least half-joking, or where they were obviously indulging in rampant speculation and not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Yep. I will even admit the whole Spaik thing was squashed relatively quickly. I think mostly even by the links she provided for the Spaik incident, she just proved that to be true.

[Moune]

Real quickly, MissBonBon:

NO, this is nothing personally between you and me. NO, I do not want to re-hash those issues. NO, I do not bring this up because I feel the discussions have not been brought to a close.

I bring them up because Neriana asked me to provide examples of what I said about credibility in the post above. I also mention the Numenor discussion because Neriana earlier asked DoW for examples of an uncivil tone. I could have searched the phorum for a number of other examples that were more recent, but it would have taken too long. The quickest way was to find them by locating my own posts.

Let’s try this: Disregard completely whatever you said about the Spaik windows and observe what happens in the thread right below my comment. Bear in mind that this is in a thread about Shakeshaft’s PROVEN theft.

Isn't Spaik also the one who put up extracted AL witch lights to make money off of?

Yeah, she obviously is an example of the shear artistry of TSR. 

Well, that or we've found Shakeshaft's mentor.

WHAM! And Spaik is put in the same category as Shakeshaft the thief – without any proof at all, and wrongly as it turned out. That is what I am talking about in the post above and that is what Neriana asked for examples of. Let’s stick to that, please, and not start debating anything else.

[Immortelle]

Why do I get a gnawing sense of deja vu reading all this.  We already had a thread ages ago now concerning the issue of how PMBD conducts itself.  So what if there is a secret saying crap about us.  Who seriously gives a shit.  Its one persons stupid whiney arsed opinion.

 That being said, we haven't destroyed very many paysites in recent times but we most certainly have slowed a few down (such as RaonSims - but part of that could be because of the introduction of Sims 3).  And the arguments that we have been using are growing a little stale.  (ie.  Peggy hairs being from poser. People could actually provide screenshots or whatever of the actual hairs in poser has a form of evidence, otherwise it just looks like we're just bandying about half baked accusations.)  I think if anything we've gotten soft and lazy.

[dietofworms]

Well I seriously give a shit because I still believe in our cause.  And I hate to think that all of our time and efforts are going down the drain because we can't moderate ourselves. It makes us look like we're more interested in venting and insulting and childish namecalling than in working for a purpose.

 What happened to Paleo and darqstar?  Are they really gone?  If so, I think we have some soul searching to do.  Having seen TSR from the inside, they are some of our most credible members.  

Moune and dstar have already said everything else I want to say. (Except I don't agree with Moune's suggestion to keep the talk about TSR people's private lives.  It's none of our business, it's irrelevant, and detracts from what we're trying to do.)

[missymoo]

Immortelle I agree, wholeheartedly, it amuses me that this has brought myself and another lurker out of hiding as it were, I wonder how many more are rolling their eyes at this thread behind computer screens as we speak.

PMBD isn't meant to be happyfuntimes, its supposed to be a pain in the ass to everyone who thinks giving money to people doing something illegal is perfectly ok. If someone gets their feelings hurt along the way, oh well, to be disgustingly non-politically correct here, fighting on the net is the same as running in the special olympics, even if you win, you've still got no legs. Its not like the threats here could ever materialise into something more, no one can give someone cancer through their voodoo powers of evil super thought waves oO.

The crux of the issue is, whatever is said here, however foul mouthed or annoying or even offensive, no one here engages in 'hacking' and deleting content on peoples accounts, or deals with confidential information in as questionable a manner as some paysites *coughTSRcough*, and no matter what is said, people here are impotent and unquestionably unwilling to harm anything but paysite profits. Whether or not how people here express themselves is coloured with the appropriate level of civility is concerned, as I have stated before, is largely irrelevant. This site is something I and many others reached only after discovering most of the CC world for themselves, with forum and paysite experience. This place isn't designed to be a TSR, Peggy or Rose alternative, it is here to undermine them, anyone can type a quick search into google and pull up as many sites as they need to with free content. If advertising free sites is a concern it is simple enough to provide a clear and noticeable link to a growing list of sites, it really shouldn't be a debate over who, what, when, where, and why, the solution is simple if the problem is site promotion, promote the sites. If people are being too aggressive for the forum then they should be more actively policed, but as I have said before, if the tone of the forum changes too much it will only serve to alienate many people who have both been here for a while but chose not to speak and people who are active members who feel that a fake friendly front is something they don't want to be involved with.

In sum, any help that can be given to free sites by way of promotion would be a positive change to the site, BUT, changing the way in which members communicate with each other would have an extremely negative effect on both lurkers and members alike.

[Paden]

Just for the record, Krumpet, I'M the GEEZER that wrote the response called Pirate Greed on the Sim Secret and I am a veteran of this site. By the comments of the likes of you, I'm a doomed species that won't be heard from much longer, but we shouldn't be speaking in the open of doing the same ruddy thing the enemy does, or don't you get that? We're supposed to have the high road here and by that kind of talk going on of Arring the stupid game, we've lost it because we admit to stooping to their tactics. Honestly, what do you kids learn these days? If you do it, don't get caught and if you do get caught, have the testicular fortitude to take what you have coming. Just don't go blaring out in public where God and his pet gecko can read about you doing it. That's all. I'm done with it. And for your further edification, I'm forty-two + plus two in Pescado years, so that hardly makes me a doddering old geezer/fool about to fall out of my wheel chair or off of my Zimmer frame, got it? Bye.

[neriana]

What happened to Paleo and darqstar?  Are they really gone?  If so, I think we have some soul searching to do.  Having seen TSR from the inside, they are some of our most credible members.  

Well that depends entirely on why they left. They weren't exactly happy sunshine fuzzy wuzzy bunnies themselves, however martyred they're choosing to pretend to be now. I typed out some other stuff, but then realized that THEY are not here, and having an argument with YOU about why THEY left is utterly ludicrous, as well as being pretty damned "uncivil".

They chose to leave and not say why, though it seems they talked to you about it. To anyone who does that because they got pissy, I say don't let the door hit you on the way out. What, we're supposed to suck up to people who used to be at TSR now? Puh-lease!

You want to be at a different site, be at a different site. The evidence is there, and anyone who chooses not to believe it because they don't like the way some posters comport themselves -- i.e., far better than on most Sims sites --  is probably hopeless.