TSR: IN UR COMPUTER, VIRUSIN' UR FILES!

[Missbonbon]

Isn't that what Simscave is for? A sharingland of happyfunpeople? And Soup?

You have a point. Thanks for reminding me that I have beef soup in my pantry, and that I must consume it immediately.

[SnarkyShark]

I'm a lurker, I tend to show up as a 'guest' on a few forum sites and only pop up as a member if, for one the site doesn't seem to be run by total asshats, and for two the people posting seem to be genuine.

missymoo, thanks for delurking in order to share your thoughts. I'm fairly certain that there might have been more than few members who needed to hear something positive about PMBD right about now. Especially coming from a newer member.

I personally don't find this site to be too harsh.

You pretty much said what missymoo said, so just shut the hell up. -  

Thanks for reminding me that I have beef soup in my pantry, and that I must consume it immediately.

Just so you know, if that were my soup I wouldn't share it with you at all. Cause Iz selfish!

[misselektra]

I never heard of SimSecret before it was mentioned in the thread here.  It's an interesting concept.  I think I saw a similar site in one of the old fandoms I used to be part of back in the day.  The problem seems to be that those sites always turn into slander fests because everyone can hide behind their veil of anonymity.  Having seen the responses over here, I'm not sure the person picked the best method for the crowd they were trying to communicate with.  There did seem to be a couple of good replies over in the actual secret thread, so that might be helpful.

I tend to agree that discussion probably isn't going to change the minds of people (as relates to the primary focus of pay sites v. free sites).  I do, however, think that this overlooks a pretty large population (of which I was a member) of people who simply don't follow the fan community enough to know about what is going on.  I'm having a hard time remembering, but I'm pretty sure I found TSR through a fansite listing on EA's Sims 2 website.  TSR (much like MTS) can be a convenient one-stop-shop location for lots of people coming into the fandom.  I think there are quite a few people who simply publish and download, never looking any further into the site.  Those are the people who need the information.

I think the anon poster is right on one account.  I think TSR is very good at showing a bright, cheerful persona to the public.  It wasn't until some really weird things started happening to me personally that I started doubting the "free stuff is free" kool-aid they hand out over there.  Having only recently started posting here, I have to say  that it was a pretty rough introduction.  But, that said, for as many people who initially doubted my motives, I think there were at least an equal number of folks who were immediately friendly, encouraging and helpful.  I'm still not posting all that much because I'm trying to get a feel for the new community, but I think that is normal for anyone coming into an already established group.

Ignoring all the stuff about the forums, I still would say the primary purpose of this site is access to booty and access to information.  The only constructive ideas that I might suggest would be to link the Quick Info (Info in the box on the upper right corner) directly on the front page.  Then people could access booty and also up-to-date information without coming into the forum.  Another option would be a link in the FAQ directing folks to another free site (maybe like MTS or SimCave as has been recommended in this thread) if they're uncomfortable with the tone in the forums here.

It seems to me that one of the most important facets to the group who has made a community here is your forum (in whatever direction you decide to take it).  There are plenty of other examples out there on the net of forums that aren't "sugar and spice" (TWOP vs. Sucks for TV commentary for example).  The posters on Sucks frequently jeer at the commentary on TWOP because it just isn't critical.  There should be options for everyone.  You don't have to read or post if you don't like the content.  That said, I know I came here because I was looking for the information and an introduction into the free community.  There may be other people like me out there.

It is my overall impression that the message here isn't "PMBD or die", but rather "free sites or die".  I know I strongly received the message to not give up on the free community, even if I did decide that posting here wasn't for me.  I think the owner of the secret might not have gotten the same message.

[neriana]

I'm not inclined to go digging through hundreds of threads to present you with evidence when it's all around you.  Like in the thread below this one.

I looked at the last few pages of that thread and I have no idea what you're referring to. If you have something specific to say, say it.

Regarding the SimSecret person: last I knew, flinging anonymous mud at people was rather UNcivil, and is, in fact, one of the nastiest, weaseliest things anyone can do. Either s/he is yet another troll, a TSR person, or got his/her panties in a twist because s/he couldn't be as obnoxious as s/he wanted here, so ran somewhere s/he would not be punished for obnoxiousness.

Unlike misselektra, I've never seen another community with anything like SimSecret. I don't see how something like that could possibly fail to be a negative influence on any community.

[ShanOw]

That secret is odd, poster is either blind or dumb. People are turning to TSR?! Hahahahaha.

Obviously you have been blinded to TSR's recent success. In the last year they have gained more than 40,000 (Yes, there are that many stupid people) new subscribers. They also have more than 400,000 new free members. There average daily downloads has jumped from 500,00'ish to 691,096 daily downloads. They also have a wiki and are developing there own CC tools which look like they are going to monopolize the creating community.

Which ever way you look at it TSR are growing rapidly; our destroying activities are not working.

[Moune]

What ShanOw just said should be enough to cause major considerations about how PMBD works - or apparantly how it doesn't work.

Personally I'm inclined to agree with DoW. I know some people here miss the good old days, when PMBD was all about being mean and spiteful to everybody. I don't. To me it often smacked of people letting all their real life frustrations and aggressions out online where it could be done without much consequence (like SimSecrets, really). And it definitely didn't do anything to attract more people to the cause.

I, too, appreciate that PMBD isn't all sugarcoated and sweet like other places, and that in principle you can say anything you want here. In principle, because you do risk getting slapped in the face with some very nasty stuff even for minor observations or comments. That still doesn't do much to attract people to the cause.

For me, I sometimes get so tired of all the negativity that I just can't be bothered to even check in and see what's happening here (mega-long threads that constantly weave off-topic doesn't do anything for my curiosity, either).

Pescado, dialogue and discussion may not actually change people's views. But the more a subject is talked about, the more people will know it exists. Hence, the more people talk about paysite issues and the more of them that come here to discuss, the more of those 40,000 new TSR subscribers will know that there is an alternative to what they are currently doing.

[MamaKitty]

Anon said that we use the "catch phrase"  think of the children.  Well that we should.  With every attack, every real name revealed, address displayed, account hacked and porn posted in said hacked account TSR has proven more and more the depths of their depraved commitment to destroy those who speak out against them.  They rigorously police their own site to remove anything that could be seen as a negative comment about them.  They seem to be trying to do the same thing to the rest of the internet.  Silence the voices of dissent through any means they deem necessary, legal or illegal.  PMBD and its members have been the main focus of these attacks, although they do seem to be branching out.  For example:  Simsecret getting hacked and secrets erased and buggybooz MTS2 account getting hacked.  If we dont discourage the 12's from being vocal and posting here.  How many of their home addresses, real names, user names, and passwords will TSR have at their fingertips in a years time, and what are they going to do with them?  Because 12's wont pay attention to the warnings and advice; they'll do stupid stuff and get caught at it because they ran around acting like a 12 year old.  And then the blame for it will fall on us because we enabled the situation by letting them in and not letting them know this was something only for adults who are willing and able to face the potential consequences of TSR's underhandedness.  This is the most important reason for keeping the 12's out.  If we're nice here they're going to show up in droves.  Is there another solution that can keep them from getting a target painted on their back?  Maybe we could quarintine them to one section or something but would that keep TSR from targeting them just for being here? 

Sorry if I sound stupid but that's just what I feel is the main reason for PMBD being a bit prickly.

[Skoria_Bay]

In a lot of cases some of our members have moved on because of RL. Like Nouk and Cala. Cala I'm sure is working on her paper which I think is nearing completion or at least one of the last times I remember her speaking of such. Sometimes, we really don't have anything new to say other than "Thomas is a dirtbag or Atwa is running loose again" and some people I'm sure are tired of that so they may not be as vocal as before but still read to see if there is any news.

BUT that doesn't mean we have to change the forum or its "tone" if you will. I remember reading a thread here a few years ago titled "The Golden Fucknut Award" and it was long and rambling at times, but the woman it was about was really an odd duck. Sure a lot of the people who posted in that thread aren't around any more for whatever reason. I think some people are working on things behind the scenes that if they post it here, like PaperBeth said, will alert TSR to what they are doing. I hope once they get some result, we can see what was sent, but for now, I'm content to wait.

[dstar]

MamaKitty;
Yes but the opposite end of the scale is that if the 12-18 crowd is discouraged from being here- and are turned away by what they perceive to be negative or aggressive behavior (and some of them are) they will continue to turn to paysites like TSR, Peggyzone, and Rose for Custom Content- sites where they will continue to be exposed to non PG-13, inappropriate content and where they will be exposed to having their information shared, and sites hacked because paysites like TSR are not just doing this to Free Community Members they don't just feed on us in the free community- they eat their own young as well. The information sharing occurred when subscribers and contributing  creators (e.g TSR's free creators) who were thought to be file sharing had their info shared out to TSR FA's and other paysites. Most of the people who have had their sites hacked, had pornographic images placed on their sites (with the exception of L.J at Simtopia), had personal information shared, and hand their content stolen- have been adult creators and community activists.

The reality is no 13 year old should have forum accounts on any forum except those specifically geared to 13 year olds- no child should have unsupervised internet access but they do. 12 and 13 year olds steal their parents credit card numbers or otherwise con their parents into paying for paysite content because they heard about it at the official EA site where they are allowed to register (in fact, they have to to register their games), 12 year olds lie about their ages in order to join forums like here, Sims Cave, my site, and even BPS and GOS where issues with paysites are being addressed everyday by members. Issues ranging from EA's EULA to who content belongs to once you have alpha edited it, fixed broken meshes, and recolored it (is it pay, or is it free?)


So lets be honest, would we rather see them here- where real issues are addressed and where their questions about custom content, paysites, EA's EULA and other community issues are begin addressed- or do we want them somewhere like the official BBS, or TSR where those issues are ignored, swept under the rug, and deleted when they are addressed by anyone including the very people who work for the company.

 It doesn't have to be all sunny niceness and cookies and huggles here - by no means- people should be free to express themselves but, there is a fine line between expressing what we really think in a logical, well thought out manner (which many of us do) and crossing the line into being mean and petty. I will admit I have been as likely to jump all over someone new asking stupid questions as the next person but when people get mean and petty instead of logical arguments against paysites they - especially the 12's unless they are very unusual - are going to go right back to TSR and say" I know this shit is wrong, paying for pixels is against the EULA, and I don't feel right about supporting someones hobby, but the free community is mean" and they will continue to buy the TSR line. Because we are often (believe it or not) the first place the teens and kids go - because of the Booty- they like the work of some pay creators (I am not saying whether that is wrong or right since there are in fact pay creators whose stuff I would love in my D/L folder - If they went free) but don't want to pay for the stuff. If this is how they are perceiving us- as representatives of the free community - than they are not going to bother checking out BPS, GOS, Adele, Coolsims, All About Style, Club Crymsyn, Garden Breeze etc- they will go back to Peggy and Rose and keep paying for pixels

To by blunt we are trying to sell something just as much as TSR is- they are trying to sell for the most part poorly made pixels that don't work- we are trying to sell the idea that it is wrong to pay for those pixels- it is against the EULA, and many of the actions perpretrated by some (not all) paysite owners in regards to the Sims Community are illegal and unethical (hacking, porn botting, content theft) but, you don't try to sell something by whacking people in the head with a brick right off the bat- if someone came up to your door- told you that you were stupid for not buying their product (in our case the anti paysite movement) and that the competitors stuff was total crap and you were stupid to buy it- using curse words, and arguments that were sometimes more reactionary than logical- would you buy the vacuum or whatever someone was selling you- probably not. This is poor salesmenship.

I do tend to agree with DOW, Moune and Shanow when it comes to this- yes we might not be able to reach some of the adult paysites supporters with this- but we also have to learn from what the enemy does- and their tactics for drawing the young and vulnerable to their organization work. Their download and membership numbers (even if you take 20% off of the top for former members whose accounts are not deleted and the downloads of their free stuff) show this.

Rose and Peggy and  Thomas and TSR know that teens and kids who come to their site are impressionable- they know that presenting what appears to be a harmless environment is attractive to both these kids and their parents- kids are not to old, set in their ways or drawn in by the possibility of supporting themselves by selling pixels to learn- while I don't want to change who we are as a site- I think that we need to realize that our target audience has changed- Sims is no longer being touted as a game for adults and older teens - EA has proven this by promoting My Sims, Sims Kingdom, and Sim Animals- so the community that used to be made up according to the statistics (which are bull) of women is now mostly teens and kids - and when addressing newer members of the community on their initial visit - we do need to take that into account.

Who we think is a paysite troll might be a 12 year old genuinely interested in the paysite debate but who does not know the right questions to ask. Maybe actually have the FAQ link posted in Sharkbait underneath Requests since this is where the new members tend to go first. And instead of us bashing trolls- ignore them - yes smacking trolls down is fun- and I have done my share (Simaroo anyone) but, let staff deal with it as it says in the fAQ- let Pescado burninate them and sit back, drink some rum and watch the fireworks while the staff lite into them. It is a waste of energy better focused on other things like promoting free sites within the community or directing new creators to sites that will offer them the supportive environment to develop their skills without being a paysite - or to useful free community resources. I am not saying the anon is totally right on this- I am not saying they are totally wrong. If they were less well-anonymous I would say the have some valid points in some ways-

I think we as a group need to look at how the Sims Community as a whole has changed in terms of demographics- e.g. who is really buying and playing the games and adjust our arguments accordingly- that doesn't mean changing who we are it means changing our perspective so that we can see the pay vs free debate through the eyes of some 12 or 13 year old who just wants to learn how to create their own Cc, or who wants nice goodies to download- because that is who our community is- becoming thanks to EA. Lets look at who is creating,  and who is downloading and their ages- Shanow was still a teen when he started creating, Anto, is just barely out of secondary school, L.J, is 15, Adele is only now into her 20's, Snarky isn't that old - these are all free creators who were reached by the message that pay isn't okay - not maybe not  by us- but by someone and they have all remained free creators who do this for fun or for the challenge. The average age of users on MTS is 18-25, and you have to take into account that probably a good 25% of those members are lying about being over 18 and are in fact 12-17.

You can smack me down for this if you want but this is my honest opinion on this. I  do agree if this person is a senior member of the community it should have been addressed by them if not openly here in the phorum out of fear that what happened to Shanow and WB happening to them- it should have been addressed by pm to senior community members who are still active here. People would have been more likely to have taken anything said seriously, and would have been less upset and offended. I am sorry, I really dislike Sims Secrets- a community that fosters that kind of environment will eventually devour itself and is exactly the kind of shit that paysites foster(e.g. anonymity when complaining about shit, sweeping shit under the rug, backstabbing and hypocrisy) and is one of the main reasons other than the paysites themselves that there are so many damned divisions in the Sims Community - that simply aren't seen in other gaming communities cause they don't tolerate " Secrets Communties" or paying for custom content.

[Pescado]

Well, here's my view on the matter: I don't want them running their 12ish yaps on my site. I hate 12s, and they don't belong on the Internets. Go be 12 someplace else. Besides, you don't seriously think some 12 is going to prefer to keep trying to justify why they need mommy and daddy's credit card when they could be getting free shit in SILENCE, do you?

[dstar]

Honestly, most 12's would justify using Mom and Dad's credit cards for pay site crud because paysites are the  the only sites they hear about at the BBS. I don't think they belong here either- I don't think 12's should be playing the Sims unless it is My Sims or Sim Animals either- since the game is rated PG-13 with absolutely no CC and in most cases if you have CC it is rated M (esp since the first thing most 12's do is install ACR and the evil of all evils that is not named here) - they also should not be on the internet if they are not supervised by a parent and on a forum specifically designed for kids- but that is not the reality of the world we live in. They do play Sims with CC and nasty hacks like Inteen (blechhh), and they do join forums which specifically state you must be over 13 years old to join them. They also have sex, steal mom and dads credit cards and do other stupid things- eventually they grow up- until then we have to put up with them- I'd rather deal with a 12 than a troll anyday

[minionsRmine]

If anonymous idiots don't like the tone of this phorum, they can go find HappyForum. PMBD is what it is. Period. This place is all about destroying paysites--how do they think we're going to do that? With rainbows coming from our mouths? With smiles on our faces? With a slap on the back and a handshake?

More like a kick in the backside and a wad of spittle in the face.

Wake up, Anonymouses!

[SnarkyShark]

In the last year they have gained more than 40,000

I'm really curious to know what the demographics for that figure are. Are they pulling more subscribers out of Europe, Asia, North America? What's the average age?  Would this information be listed publicly somewhere, or is it something we'd need a certain coconut's help attaining? The bottom line is that we'd be able to come up with a better strategy if we knew more about who was subscribing to that site.

[dstar]

Snarky- these are their actual statistics for downloads, page views, and demographics http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesimsresource.com. This is probably some different from what their front page says since that counts all former users like myself, Sailfindragon, Aikea Guinea and Gelydh, Darqustar etc who have left but, where they refused to remove content and close accounts. Their front page also includes downloads as free content on the site+pay/subscriber content on the site.

 mionionsrmine -Yes but that should be directed at the Paysites and their representatives  like Johan and all to frequently it is not - it is directed at people who may or may not be trolls who come here asking  stupid question- remember we are trying to get these people asking stupid questions to buy into our cause and you can't sell anything to people by whacking them in the head, spitting on them etc. Wanna know what I do to people who try to sell me something by smacking me in the face and spitting on me whether it be a cause (Anti Paysite Movement) or a vacuum cleaner- I tell them to fuck off, slam the door in their face, punch them right back, or go buy shit from the competitors (after all who is going to go to free sites when their first image of the free community is coming here and getting body slammed into the ground by 50 people- they will just go back to TSR), or at members of the free community - that is not what we are here for- destroying paysites means not bitch slapping noobs when they ask dumb questions  which is as the faq states should be handled by pointing them to the FAQ, and the Talk about the Booty Thread (having done it myself I can tell you some people here are more likely to smack people down for asking dumb noob questions first and point them to the FAQ later) , or bitch slapping creators/modders from the free community behind their backs and being all niceness and cookies and fangirl/fanboy shit in the Om Nom Nom, Freesite Creations, and Free Content Pwns Paysite Crap threads.

I am not saying stop being yourself- I support that more than anyone - that is why I left TSR. How noobs are welcomed to the forum now is considerably less polite than when I started here or when many people started here. " Please read the FAQ and welcome to the community" and a basic site orientation which is how I believe either Snarky, Rum Nate, or Darqstar welcomed me to PMBD, is a lot more effective tha " STFU NOOB- Read the Fuckin FAQ, Lurk MOAR!!!" which is currently how many noobs asking stupid questions are welcomed to PMBD.

 You destroy paysites by bitch slapping the paysite people, by making sure evidence of illegal actions makes it into the right hands, by promoting the free community to people who need to hear about the great free shit Like the 12's that sub to paysites, and by supporting Free Creators and Modders All the Time Not Just when they Make Something We Like or Do Something We Approve of other than in cases where they work with the enemy of course, and of course by making paysite goodies freely available and using their own weapons against them - not in terms of site hacking and content theft (e.g completely stealing another creators work and claiming as your own e.g. Shakeshaft and Monica) we are better than that,  but, in terms of promoting our cause  outside PMBD and going after the 12's (just like TSR does) who are the ones subscribing to paysites and who are the one's who believe paysite propaganda because it is all they are exposed to at the BBS/Official Sims Sites- unless we are more active in disillusioning them about paysite activities they will continue to support paysites and paysites will continue to exist- no matter how much we as a group dislike 12's or those that act like them we have to use what the paysites already know- get em young - we can bring em up right instead of paysite supporters- we end up with freesite supporters

When you are in a war you often need to change your tactics in terms of gaining the support of the neutral parties - e.g. people in the community who want their shines- whether they get them for free or pay for them and who don't really give a shite about the EULA. If the tactics you use don't work- change them. There is a difference between TSR, Peggy, and Rose fake niceness and being genuinely nice or helpful or having the best interests of the community at heart. You don't have to be a bitch/asshole to people to be truthful and honest, you don't have to be subtle, and if the situation calls for it, you don't have to be polite. But, if we truly have the interest of the community at heart in getting rid of paysites than we need to make it clear by not bitch smacking people who have not yet proved themselves to be paysite trolls, until they prove to us that they are  and proof does not mean just because disagree with us on some aspect of the paysite debate (e.g  by not thinking all pay stuff is crap) that they are trolls.

 Disagreement and debate is healthy- bitch smacking people for doing so is not- I am just as guilty as anyone else in this sense but I am not going to pretend that I am innocent, and shove all the negativity that goes on -some perpetrated by me behind a curtain and lie about it because this is what TSR and other paysites do. MOAR FIGHT does not mean lets just kill everything just because it doesn't agree with us ( well maybe it does to Pescado but he is a unique individual and he has the right to his own views)

As I said the person should have probably  been more direct in dealing with this issue - Sims Secrets does not foster a healthy environment for the community and is simply a forum for community members to bitch slap each other in a dishonest manner- both for pay and free community members. Sweeping shit under the carpet and hiding it does nothing and only adds to the problem- rather than solving it, and it is exactly the sort of paysite tactic that should not be fostered in the free community.

[missymoo]

You destroy paysites by bitch slapping the paysite people, by making sure evidence of illegal actions makes it into the right hands, by promoting the free community to people who need to hear about the great free shit Like the 12's that sub to paysites

Sims Secrets does not foster a healthy environment for the community and is simply a forum for community members to bitch slap each other in a dishonest manner- both for pay and free community members. Sweeping shit under the carpet and hiding it does nothing and only adds to the problem- rather than solving it, and it is exactly the sort of paysite tactic that should not be fostered in the free community.

Agreed.

However, the anit-paysite message, as it were, is not only carried by PMBD, there are other forums, and sites which encourage filesharing and offer pay items for free. When I was new to the sims game (I came in about a year after sims2 was released, ahhh the good old days) I had no idea there was such a thing as custom content for the game. When I did slowly become aware of it the site I first came to was not TSR it was MTS.

What needs to happen is that the 12s toddle off to forums like simscave, MTS, and MTS3 where the bright friendly face of free CC is shown, I always found MTS to be a bright, engaging, and easy to use site, that was on the first google search page when you put in 'sims custom content'. All it takes is scrolling below TSR and having look at what else is available. What shouldn't happen is that this place, the grimy, argumentative, no bullshit, anti paysite hard-line forum gets diluted into something more about file sharing than about the drama TSR people constantly stir up and the illegality of selling sims items.

This isn't the face most people see when coming into the community for the first time, this is the place people should end up after they have some experience, both with forums (and reading the FAQ, seriously, how difficult is that? oO) and custom content. People coming here asking questions like 'duuuuh how do i put this supah kewl bed in muh gamezor?' are obviously in the wrong place, and to be honest, they will have been through other sites and forums to find this one in the first place, where their questions would probably have received a better reception.