TSR: In Ur Accounts, Deletin Ur Stuffs!

[ShanOw]

I know I'm a wee bit behind with this particular debate, but I have to say that I am not too enthused by the idea of using something by the company that have given me nothing but shit for the last few months in order to create for the free community. The idea that they can (In some way) control and influence the free community is unacceptable to me and we should not tolerate it. I know that many people believe that the "us and them" attitude that is held between TSR and the free community is a bad thing that plagues the community, but I think that the "us and them" mentality is a necessity for ensuring that the community as a whole cannot be accountable for the immoral and illegal stuff that TSR pull. EA does not 'endorse or affiliate with' the community so why should we in any way stand by TSR.

I'm quite amazed by Modern_Sims' message. Awesomely cool

I have to say I agree, its about time some people woke up to the fact that charging people to enjoy there work is immoral. I wish the best for this girl and will gladly host as website for any artist willing to leave TSR.*

Is there anyone in the free community that believes coconut is manufacturing all of this?

I personally believe that coconut is telling the truth - possibly not all the truth for her own protection, but enough of it. However I also think it best that we view everything she states in a reasonable (even skeptical) manner... not because we don't trust her, but because it won't be the first time that TSR has lied/leaked information/backstabbed/infiltrated parts of the free community.

*Any FA who is reading this is entirely welcome to contact me or any member of the free community. Unlike TSR we actually look out for each other.

[Quorneater]

I updated my last post BTW with something people may care to "debate"

Having done my research, I can now reveal that Coconut has correctly identified some smoke that belongs to a fire, but she has misidentified the details of the fire in quite a big way.

[lorikay]

Quorneater, why would you post that without saying what's up?  

I really need to go back to playing solitaire and listening to some good rock n roll.


edit:  I think that dare is interesting.  I probably won't use anything from the TSR tool.  Most likely because I really don't like TS3.  I've really tried to like the game, but so far I just think it's boring.  Maybe it's because I'm a relatively new player.  I'm just not sure.  I've downloaded a ton of CC for TS3 and I'm just not into the game itself.  I keep going back to TS2 and I enjoy it.

[ShanOw]

Is the big news that the free tool makers and TSR will be teaming up? If so then I'm afraid I will have to post my "us and them" argument again

[lorikay]

Where can I find the us and them, Shanow?  Is it Pink Floydish?

[Quorneater]

No, it's just a continuum of the information sharing that has already been going on from even before the game came out, from right back when we were able to get our hands on some snaffled files.   I guess Thomas just over-egged the situation, as usual, in front of coconut's informer.   Similar to when I was announced as being on the Workshop development team

[Missbonbon]

However, just to really post something inflammatory, I would ask everyone to consider the following:   There is no way Peter would have the time, and possibly even the ability, to create something as user-friendly as Workshop.  TSR are paying professional programmers to make their tool and it is being worked on as a full-time job.   This means that some of subscription money they took from us is going back into making something that is free for the community, and better and easier to use than anything the community is willing or able to make for itself at this time.   Like it or not, I think you'll find that the majority of creators both pay and free will switch to using Workshop once the version is out that has all these new features I am testing (NB many of them added at my direct suggestion).  Now I wonder how many anti-TSR players will refuse to download objects made with Workshop, on principle?   You're gonna have to think about boycotting those, if you want to put pressure on people not to support anything TSR does.

*Sigh* This upsets me very much. Where to begin? Well I guess first a couple viewpoints from the "political side."

1. Even if TSR are paying professional programmers to code for their tool, it still doesn't make it alright. I just want to point out that even if it's the tool that is free, it was the community that paid for that tool. He better damn well release it for free. Not to mention, this just goes to show, yet again, that the subscription money taken from TSR doesn't just fund the website. To me it's wrong to take peoples money the way TSR does. You get ripped off for shit items that fuck up your game, and your funding some peoples way of living. Is it my job to provide the extra cash for Sue so she doesn't have to work? No it's not.

Which reminds me of a conversation I read over at Simscave. One of the FA's posted over there about how she did not like TSR, but became a FA to help support her children. I completely understand that as a mother you want to do what you believe is best for your children, and I completely understand that sometimes you have to do things you don't like/want to do, BUT is it really my duty to pay for her children? No. Is it my duty to pay of Openhousejacks porn? No. It's fucked up that that's where the money goes. Not to just maintain TSR and TSR alone.

And to mention that they are paying the programmers implies that I should be "grateful." Well I'm not. I'm grateful when people like Delphy, and Peter, and Jfade spend their spare time to create for this game and make it possible for me to create. Out of the kindness of their hearts. I am not grateful when a company that receives it's money in a foul way, takes it's blood money, and tries to play it off that it's doing something good for the community.

2. By suggesting that the tool is "better and easier to use than anything the community is willing or able to make for itself at this time" to me is a huge slap in the face for anyone who has made any tool. I personally find all the tools I have found to be extremely easy to use. Let's not forget that the free community provided TSR with bits of code to make certain things in their workshop possible. Without those bits of code, TSR's workshop tool would still be light years behind anything the community has to offer, and would be boasting that the only thing they have over those tools is a 3d viewer.

3.

Like it or not, I think you'll find that the majority of creators both pay and free will switch to using Workshop once the version is out

Personally, I will believe it when I see it. I have seen enough big name creators refuse the service of TSR's workshop to know that at least some creators won't switch over. At the same time, what would stop TSR from say... making the tool pay? After a couple years, if the workshop was the only tool being up kept, what would stop them from charging a measly 3 dollars for it? Then 5 dollars? Then 10 dollars? Next thing you know, in 5 years your paying $29.95 just to create for your hobby. And there wouldn't be a damn thing anyone could do... except make their own tools. Then we are back to square one.

Not to mention, as a creator, I do not like the fact of only being able to choose one program. When I was doing a majority of my creating for sims 2, the only thing I could not chose on whether or not to use was bodyshop. There was a vast pool of different tools to choose from. I do not like the fact that it would be one tool and one tool alone. What if the tool just doesn't work? Let's say an EP comes out. What am I to do if it takes TSR 6 months to update their workshop when the free community could have had it done in 2? It will impose many implications on many people if there wasn't the freedom of choice.

Having done my research, I can now reveal that Coconut has correctly identified some smoke that belongs to a fire, but she has misidentified the details of the fire in quite a big way.

By what you edited your post with, I do not see how coconut has misidentified the details. To refresh you this is what Coconut predicted:

As ‘lol’ correctly predicted, the new announcement from TSR will be about Wes H. TSR plan to announce that they are adding Wes H ( as staff ) to the development team for Merlin. Tom hopes that this will ‘rock the free community’ in some way.

And to answer your question, the plugins will NOT carry a TOU preventing their use on payfiles.

Merlin is their install tool. Which even then, I do not like the fact that there's the workshop, and now Merlin. What is to stop them from trying to "bribe" other people, such as Delphy, into letting their tools die. I do now like the fact that at this stage in the game, it is very easy for TSR to monopolize the CC corner. I know I would duly appreciate it, but if you happen to know something about the situation that does in fact change what Coconut has said, I would like it to be brought out.

I also would like to let people know, TSR made an announcement yesterday: http://www.thesimsresource.com/news/view-post/post/13442

Phew, we've finally reached a level with Sims 3 where we have a steady flow of content coming from our Select and Featured Artists (and much more to come as objects are fully released!). So, now the time has come to do a refresh regarding Sims 2. This means we are going to go through and retire and recruit and handful of Artists from the Sims 2 teams.

This also means we are looking for a few good men/women. There are currently 4 Sims 2 FA positions and as many SA positions as we deem necessary available. If you are interested please let us know by contacting me with a private message (or if I contact and invite you). It could be that you have a Sims 2 site you wish to close or whatever the reason, we'd like to hear about it! The FA positions are incentive based and allows you to make some money from your "hobby" - read more about the Select and Featured Artist benefits here.

By this message, it means that either Thomas is wanting to turn as many as his current FA's over to sims 3, and is severly lacking in the creator department for sims 2, or he is just wanting to grab some more creators that see $$ for their content. Of course he has to advertise that the FA's make extra money because the information is already out there, with screenshots to prove it, and it will help grab those that are little bit more than "just greedy."

[Quorneater]

TSR plan to announce that they are adding Wes H ( as staff ) to the development team for Merlin.

According to what I have been told, this is a completely untrue statement.  The actual event does not include any new person joining TSR's staff.  And it most certainly is nothing to do with Merlin.   Of course I can't guarantee I have been told the truth but it came via someone I get on ok with and hasn't been caught out lying to me before.

[ShanOw]

At the same time, what would stop TSR from say... making the tool pay? After a couple years, if the workshop was the only tool being up kept, what would stop them from charging a measly 3 dollars for it? Then 5 dollars? Then 10 dollars? Next thing you know, in 5 years your paying $29.95 just to create for your hobby.

This is an interesting point, they may claim at this point that hey have only the intentions of the community in mind while they are effectively taking over. If this hypothetical situation plays out the way you have predicted, whats to stop them strangling every part of the community that does not support them once they get their hands around our throats?

[Quorneater]

s3oc will continue to be available, and can recommence active development any time.  If Peter can't or won't do it himself for any reason, it is all open source and any other capable programmer can take it on.

[Missbonbon]

TSR plan to announce that they are adding Wes H ( as staff ) to the development team for Merlin.

According to what I have been told, this is a completely untrue statement.  The actual event does not include any new person joining TSR's staff.  And it most certainly is nothing to do with Merlin.   Of course I can't guarantee I have been told the truth but it came via someone I get on ok with and hasn't been caught out lying to me before.

If this is true, I trust the fact that when TSR makes their statement, if it varies vastly from the knowledge you were told, you would be willing to share it yes? If not, then I don't see the point in dangling in front of us that you know information which deviates from Coconut's information.

s3oc will continue to be available, and can recommence active development any time.  If Peter can't or won't do it himself for any reason, it is all open source and any other capable programmer can take it on.

Hence why I said we would be back to square one. I don't see the point for people to not continue updates on their tools they have provided, other than they just lost interest, or really just can't do it anymore. If it gets to the point, that I won't say "predicted" but I guess "over-exaggerated for the sake of argument," it could be to late. It could already be to far into the game for someone to just resume status. If I remember correctly, didn't some sims 2 expansion packs change some slight coding in some things? Hence why hacks and the latter wouldn't work after certain EP's? If the situation I alluded to doesn't occur until we are 10 EP's deep, it could call for a complete restructure of programs.

Not to mention I am rather curious about this open source. Mainly because, wouldn't someone that had the programming knowledge have already tweaked s3oc by now? Unless it's just that fact that we know to little at this point.

Edit to add: I know, ideally I personally would appreciate it if Thomas had some reassurances to some worries. Not just for myself, but for the community as well. I know it will probably never happen, and Thomas has already given himself a sour name by being almost "forced" to uphold his ends of bargains, but I could just feel better knowing that he couldn't strangle the life and the money out of the community and not have any repercussions.

Maybe if there was something stating for matter of factly on multiple sources that the workshop would never become a pay object, would not make all your creations belong to TSR, and if multiple people took apart the tool to make sure nothing malware was being injected into the hearts of our packages and computers, and Thomas making the workshop open source, definitively, releaseing the bits of code that does change with every EP, then maybe, and just MAYBE I sleep better. But seeing as how that will probably never happen, I will still continue to have my guard up.

[ShanOw]

wouldn't someone that had the programming knowledge have already tweaked s3oc by now? Unless it's just that fact that we know to little at this point.

What would they tweak? It clones and packages all the objects in the game... unless someone wanted to add a million features to bloat the program, fill it full of bugs and pack it full of spyware so its on par with the TSR Workshop..?

[Missbonbon]

wouldn't someone that had the programming knowledge have already tweaked s3oc by now? Unless it's just that fact that we know to little at this point.

What would they tweak? It clones and packages all the objects in the game... unless someone wanted to add a million features to bloat the program, fill it full of bugs and pack it full of spyware so its on par with the TSR Workshop..?

But that's just my point. We know to little right now to say for sure that s3oc will even be worth tweaking in the future. I'm not saying chuck it out the window right now and call it worthless, but couldn't some of the features from the workshop be added in? Or to any of the other tools right now? I am more curious as to how many people we have in the community that have that knowledge, that would be willing to step to the plate when need be, and would be willing to tweak or completely overhaul a program if need be. I'm sure the amount of people that can accomplish the task will grow, but will the motivation to do so grow as well?

[Quorneater]

If this is true, I trust the fact that when TSR makes their statement, if it varies vastly from the knowledge you were told, you would be willing to share it yes? If not, then I don't see the point in dangling in front of us that you know information which deviates from Coconut's information.

I am sorry, I know it's irritating, but I have a personal policy not to divulge contents of private chats, so I have tried to give the information I can while stopping short of any detail that would identify the person who confided in me or the individuals involved.  I don't want to make unnecessary complications for anyone.  I just want to give whatever is necessary to stop everyone wasting their energy running off at the wrong angle.   If and when I find out I have been lied to, I will be very annoyed and have to apologise here.  Otherwise everyone will be told anyway, when and if the event comes to pass.

I don't see the point for people to not continue updates on their tools they have provided, other than they just lost interest, or really just can't do it anymore.

For an example, in Peter's case he's not interested in Sims and would rather be programming drumming sequencers.  "lost interest" is irrelevant, as he has already shown he is willing to do work he never had an interest in, as a gift to the simming community.   Should the need arise, he can force himself to do so again.

Not to mention I am rather curious about this open source. Mainly because, wouldn't someone that had the programming knowledge have already tweaked s3oc by now? Unless it's just that fact that we know to little at this point.

They could have done, I wouldn't necessarily know.  Usually people have other things they want to be doing, and if s3oc is "good enough" for the time being, probably no one has been motivated to do anything with it.  I am sure that would change in the worst case scenario.

[Echo]

Not to mention I am rather curious about this open source. Mainly because, wouldn't someone that had the programming knowledge have already tweaked s3oc by now? Unless it's just that fact that we know to little at this point.

Most of the free community tools are open source:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/s3pi/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sims3tools/
http://code.google.com/p/madscientistproductions
https://sourceforge.net/projects/postal-sims3

There are two main issues though;
1 - There are only a dozen or so programmers in the sims community with enough of an interest to actually work on tools, and
2 - Just because people *can* doesn't mean they *do*.

I do know that the Postal source has been used in at least two other tools which I had nothing to do with. Neither project looks anything like Postal though, so unless you read the fine print you wouldn't know. So open source on sims tools does actually work.