Baby Roaster Excluded From Ballot! ROCK THE VOTE!

[Echo]

I'm not here in any sort of official capacity, just putting in a point of view.

- MTS2 does not normally allow anyone to post uploads which are not actually hosted on MTS2. Download threads without attachments are generally archived, so threads don't end up advertising something which can't be downloaded any more (especially as external sites move their files around, or disappear entirely). So in that sense the rules were stretched (but not broken!) to allow the roaster, 'cause it was just that cool, and 'cause Pescado is fairly likely to remember to maintain the offsite link.
- MTS2 does not normally allow content which has graphically violent imagery. I think the "serving" part of the roaster skirts the edge of rule pretty closely - it's not blood spurting, but it is severing limbs, which is getting close. So there was a slight stretch (again, not a break!) of the rules there as well, because it was just that cool.
- The requirements for "exceptionals" in creator challenges include a direct relevance to the theme. The theme was "fun stuff for kids". While thoroughly awesome, this download is stretching that definition quite a bit in spirit, at least.

The roaster is on MTS2, it is welcome on MTS2, and it's going to stay on MTS2 (as long as the creators are willing). But it's already done quite a bit of stretching to get it where it is.

All that said, I do find the comparisons to TSR a bit distasteful. MTS2 is a private forum, and when many people combine forces to derail a thread I think it is entirely legitimate to remove those posts. Staff didn't allow anti-roasters to derail support threads over the roaster, and we don't allow pro-roasters to derail voting threads over it. There is a big difference between that and TSR's habit of selling low-quality content, sharing users personal details, hacking sites and leaning on others to get them shut down. It seems to me as though saying "They're becoming like TSR" of any site less liberal than PMBD is almost worthy of some sort of Godwin's law meme these days. 

(As a side note, Phaenoh's stuff is fairly extensively modded, even if it's not immediately obvious to the downloader. She's enabled new clothing categories for toddlers, including underwear and swimwear, and created an object which remotely mirrors another sim's plumbob. It definitely fits better under modded objects than deco objects)

[novastar]

There'd probably be more of a shitstorm if it were let in compared to it's exclusion, food for teh thought.

[Missbonbon]

I'm not here in any sort of official capacity, just putting in a point of view.

- MTS2 does not normally allow anyone to post uploads which are not actually hosted on MTS2. Download threads without attachments are generally archived, so threads don't end up advertising something which can't be downloaded any more (especially as external sites move their files around, or disappear entirely). So in that sense the rules were stretched (but not broken!) to allow the roaster, 'cause it was just that cool, and 'cause Pescado is fairly likely to remember to maintain the offsite link.

Then if they let him put it up, then they shouldn't have given him the icon in his profile for participating in the kid contest.

- MTS2 does not normally allow content which has graphically violent imagery. I think the "serving" part of the roaster skirts the edge of rule pretty closely - it's not blood spurting, but it is severing limbs, which is getting close. So there was a slight stretch (again, not a break!) of the rules there as well, because it was just that cool.

http://www.modthesims2.com/download.php?t=231679
Shoots sims with a disease which ultimately will kill them.

http://www.modthesims2.com/download.php?t=231678
Shoots and kills sims.

http://www.modthesims2.com/download.php?t=215543
Your sims can fight, which they get stabbed with the sword. They can also commit suicide with the sword, and even kill other sims.

What kills me, there was a huge controversy about the babby roaster, yet none of these objects? But of course it's because your sims are eating a baby though right? His object was still entered into the contest, and should have been posted as a viable contestant. Honestly they should have included everyone that participated. Just because their staff finds those downloads the favorites, doesn't mean everyone else does. They didn't even state what the criteria for being on the poll was. Was it "Oh this object looks like it took a lot of time to create," or was it "Oh I like this one!"

- The requirements for "exceptionals" in creator challenges include a direct relevance to the theme. The theme was "fun stuff for kids". While thoroughly awesome, this download is stretching that definition quite a bit in spirit, at least.

I agree with this part. It's not fun for kids, but then they shouldn't have included it within the kid contest period. It should have been posted as a regular download.

The roaster is on MTS2, it is welcome on MTS2, and it's going to stay on MTS2 (as long as the creators are willing). But it's already done quite a bit of stretching to get it where it is.

All that said, I do find the comparisons to TSR a bit distasteful. MTS2 is a private forum, and when many people combine forces to derail a thread I think it is entirely legitimate to remove those posts. Staff didn't allow anti-roasters to derail support threads over the roaster, and we don't allow pro-roasters to derail voting threads over it. There is a big difference between that and TSR's habit of selling low-quality content, sharing users personal details, hacking sites and leaning on others to get them shut down. It seems to me as though saying "They're becoming like TSR" of any site less liberal than PMBD is almost worthy of some sort of Godwin's law meme these days. 

Yes they may have taken a backlash to host the object, but if they weren't going to host it, I'm sure Pes would have found somewhere else to host it. It was just funny that it got entered into their little child contest.

As for the comments about TSR, how is it distasteful? TSR deletes any comments that don't agree with them. Delphy is obviously doing the same here. Hell I agree with them when the whole controversy about the roaster started, because it was thoroughly stated not to comment on the download if you didn't like it. It may be a private forum that they can run however they like, but if Delphy had said not to comment about the roaster on that thread then I would fine with the deletions. But he didn't. He just said don't vote. The people on that thread weren't voting. They were expressing the fact that they would vote had the roaster been on there. They clearly were breaking no rules. Oh wait, according to Delphy, they were:

1. Obey Staff at All Times: If a moderator or administrator tells you something, then do it. Be that removing yourself from a thread, changing a sig, or to get lost and never come back. We do not try to be mean or heavy-handed here (just the opposite) but staff does have complete discretion to enforce the rules as written, and things that may come up beyond the rules. If staff says black is white, it's white.

Which again, he didn't say to not post about the roaster. I don't think people here meant in the sense of MTS sharing information, they meant in the sense of deleting comments they don't like. TSR does that ya know.

There'd probably be more of a shitstorm if it were let in compared to it's exclusion, food for teh thought.

They were willing to deal with it when the roaster was posted. What's the difference between then and now?

[bigjoehenessee]

 I was one of the first dowloaders of the baby-Q and was on the site that nite having fun with MTS2 staff and the good folk from The Site That Must Not Be Named as we poked fun at those who could not see the genius of the humor in it. That nite, MTS2 staff DEFENDED the download! Now they call it contraversial? WTF? Delphy is deleting posts and "ignoring" votes for items not on his list.    

[bigjoehenessee]

AND ANOTHER THING! I specificilally stated that nite "get it while its hot, it wont be around for long" and referenced this download that MTS2 defended as well...http://modthesims2.com/dowload.php?t=214689. That sim is still available, as H.P. stated, but with a maxis skin. The "contraversial" tattoos are not there. I dont get it. MTS2 is a stand alone site, right? Who are they bending for? 

[Missbonbon]

Bigjoe, don't double post. It's in the faq if you haven't read it. 

[Echo]

(link) Shoots sims with a disease which ultimately will kill them.
(link) Shoots and kills sims.
(link) Your sims can fight, which they get stabbed with the sword. They can also commit suicide with the sword, and even kill other sims.

Like I said, the roaster is skirting the edges of rules, but not actually breaking them. I think the quote goes "it's a fine line he didn't cross". As a side note, there is a difference between violent and graphically violent. The line is normally to do with goriness; falling over and curling up != gory. Having guts fall out and spill all over the floor == gory. Being roasted "off screen" then sliced in a cartoony manner is... somewhere in the middle. We have had content moved to the adult site for being too gory. This download didn't quite cross that line.

As for the comments about TSR, how is it distasteful? TSR deletes any comments that don't agree with them

So do most newspaper websites, personal blogs, heck, even charities! It's a common practice. Comparing MTS2 to TSR for deleting posts is a bit like saying "You like drinking cordial? Saddam Hussein likes drinking cordial! You should stop drinking cordial or else you're being like him!". Obviously that's exaggerated, but my point is this: Someone does something you don't like, so you compare them to the most unpleasant group you can think of which also does that thing. (I'm using 'you' in the general sense.) It's similar to those people who compare someone to Hitler just to disprove their basically unrelated point.

[Jonesi]

Staff didn't allow anti-roasters to derail support threads over the roaster, and we don't allow pro-roasters to derail voting threads over it.

Anti-roasters and pro-roasters.  Class!   

[ooglafina]

Staff didn't allow anti-roasters to derail support threads over the roaster, and we don't allow pro-roasters to derail voting threads over it.

Anti-roasters and pro-roasters.  Class!  

Yeah, why do we always seem to be forming political parties during the last couple of years? It's this group against that group and we're always worried about being politically correct and ulterior motives. 

[Missbonbon]

Like I said, the roaster is skirting the edges of rules, but not actually breaking them. I think the quote goes "it's a fine line he didn't cross". As a side note, there is a difference between violent and graphically violent. The line is normally to do with goriness; falling over and curling up != gory. Having guts fall out and spill all over the floor == gory. Being roasted "off screen" then sliced in a cartoony manner is... somewhere in the middle. We have had content moved to the adult site for being too gory. This download didn't quite cross that line.

That is true that there is a difference between violent and graphically violent. My point with what I posted is that you called it a stretch within their rules, yet it was still allowed to enter in the kid contest. I can't find it at the moment, but I am rather curious as to what the guidelines for the contest was. It's just sketchy that it's okay for the sites rules, but not okay for the poll? Yes, a lot of stuff wasn't included. But why wasn't the other objects included. What was the guidelines for being considered a staff "favorite?" Oh, I love how Delphy throws the other creators in there "think of how they feel that they weren't in the poll!" Yet doesn't give any criteria as to why they aren't?  What would have been so hard about including everything and letting the fans decide as to what is the best created item?

As for the comments about TSR, how is it distasteful? TSR deletes any comments that don't agree with them

So do most newspaper websites, personal blogs, heck, even charities! It's a common practice. Comparing MTS2 to TSR for deleting posts is a bit like saying "You like drinking cordial? Saddam Hussein likes drinking cordial! You should stop drinking cordial or else you're being like him!". Obviously that's exaggerated, but my point is this: Someone does something you don't like, so you compare them to the most unpleasant group you can think of which also does that thing. (I'm using 'you' in the general sense.) It's similar to those people who compare someone to Hitler just to disprove their basically unrelated point.

Have you ever heard the saying "If your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?" Just because other organizations out there discard of comments that disapprove of their business doesn't make it right. Look at Amazon and Spore, and Mass Effect with Martha MacCallum. Both instances were frowned upon that both instances deleted customers reviews of products. Just because Amazon does it, does it mean MTS should? Shouldn't there be a standard other than "If we don't like it, we delete it!"

Not to mention if Garden of Shadows deleted comments the mods didn't agree with, I would say "MTS is becoming like GOS!" It's not comparing the people, but comparing the practices. Like I said had Delphy said do  not post about the roaster, I would be fine with the deletions. But he did not. Now they are deleting the posts because of what? Because people are expressing the fact they want to vote for the roaster? So every discussion they don't approve of, is it going to be deleted? Are they going to come out with a list of "approved" topics that the people can discuss?

Everyone here is more or less pissed because it wasn't included, I'm sure you could tell that. But I for one would like a better explanation other than "We didn't think it fit as our favorite." I'm not some pawn they can feed minimal amount of information to.

[Henbane]

I posted earlier to MTS2:

Evidently you're taking lessons from TSR now, blocking things you don't like, only allowing things you want or things that can make you look good, making up rules to suit whatever, whenever, however and changing them at your whim.

Yes, yes, yes, I know this is a private site; yes, yes, yes, you can do whatever the hell you want. You've stated it ad nauseum, and we are just peons, bowing at your feet to allow us access to this magnificent site that features (now, rarely) wonderful creations. Blah blah blah.

However, please remember, the users made this site what it is, way back when.

I want to vote for the Babby BBQ. It is my choice.

You can ban me now, if you want. Your usefulness has come to an end. The game is done, and I rarely play. I look around, download, but I've not loaded the game in weeks.

I don't visit here anymore because of the virus-ridden ads, the blinky-flash and the idiocy. I might look in if I see something on another site that says "check this out". Otherwise, I simply don't come here anymore because of the attitude. Far more free sites do it better.

Honestly, you have become the *free* TSR.

I edited my post to add that my REAL name is LYRIC. I am not LyricLee. That bitch has ruined more of my logins than I can count.

whiterider then deleted my post as being "wildly off-topic".

My reply:

Wildly off-topic, eh? It was on-topic, to the nth.

Check my ID, I've been here since the very first of this site. This is the first time I've spoken out. Allow me this one thing.

How is the Babby BBQ "wildly off-topic", pray tell?

S/he's answer is a thumb in the mouth: "It's not one of the nominees. This thread is about the nominees. Not sure where the confusion came from, really."

[missangelica]

I edited my post to add that my REAL name is LYRIC. I am not LyricLee. That bitch has ruined more of my logins than I can count.

Weren't you in #social for a while?  It's sad that you have to announce that you're not LL wherever you go in this community.

[calalily]

All that said, I do find the comparisons to TSR a bit distasteful.

I have to agree with this. MTS2 is not one single thing like TSR - so stop it.  TSR shares information, DDOSes other sites, poaches creators from freesites, and is pay.  Deleting a comment or multiple comments doesn't make it TSR.  TSR removes the whole thing from existence like it never happened - try to find the front page news post about how they only shared 5 peoples' information - go on, find it. And if you do, then you can talk about MTS2=TSR.

[Quinctia]

I mentioned this years ago in terms of the moderation methods on MTS2, but it bears mentioning again.

Post deletions by moderators show how well a site is managed.  The catch?  The relationship is inverse.  Sure, there are plenty of sites out there that delete posts.  Those are sites where I don't engage in discussion, and I'm sure a lot of other people agree with me.  But it definitely shows a lack of good communication skills on the part of those doing the deletion.

The constant post deletions have actually made it so I don't really want to engage in discussion there at all any more, period.  And this is prior to anything babbyque.  I see constructive crit, anything but a "baa, thanks," on a download, deleted. What's the point in trying to help anyone?  It doesn't happen to all the crit I see, but it happens often enough that I don't want to deal with it.  So, yeah, this is a hell of a lot similar to the way they roll at TSR.

I'm not saying not to moderate, but deleting posts out of hand is despicable.  That should be a last-ditch action if something is completely unredeemable--you've got a spammer, or someone merely posting capslocked profanity, but not when someone is making a reasonable statement.  The worst part of it is that it is eliminating proof on either side--no one knows if those were really horrible posts or not.  And given the trends I've seen, I'm willing to bet it's more likely than not they were innocuous.  You have a moderator outright delete ONE post that isn't out of line or inflammatory, and I see every subsequent deletion as an example of that mod being petty, incapable of dealing with differing opinions, and on a power trip.  Not all the mods on the site are like that, but perhaps I've missed their time to shine as a raging douchebag because they've deleted the post.

Or perhaps, more likely, there are several mods out there who just hit the delete button instead of actually thinking about the best course of action.  And there are some who do moderate, which is why I don't see them caught up in deletion storms.  Again, I don't have a problem with moderation, I mod the main LJ sims comm and have modded elsewhere in the past but there is a reason why the goddamn word is moderation.

On a different note...for some reason that thumbnail of Phaenoh's creation was making me think of something else completely.  I went back and clicked on the thread, and I see that there are a lot of heavily modded things.  So I apologize for what I said...now I'm wondering what set I thought it was!

[novastar]

There'd probably be more of a shitstorm if it were let in compared to it's exclusion, food for teh thought.

They were willing to deal with it when the roaster was posted. What's the difference between then and now?

Thus why I said, food for thought. Hypocrisy, thy name has risen.