TSR ATTACKS! WE CAN HAZ NEW LEGAL THREAT!

[Paleoanth]

I have more to say, but I gotta run and do some work stuff.  I hate having to work.  But I want to just quickly hit this one thing as it may save a bunch of time:

Well then, they're not wiping out all taxes and putting up a fair tax - they're replacing one system of taxation for another. 

That is exactly right! In fact that is the point of the Fair Tax.  It is not so much tax reform as it is tax replacement.  They are not saying to get rid of taxes, as that would be dumb, but to tax in a more fair way than the current system does.  I really don't understand some of the protests (not yours, I get what you are saying) that some people have on this.  This way everyone gets taxed based upon what they buy.  The rich, who buy more expensive things will pay a higher tax.  No loop holes.  Food and essentials are not taxed at all, through the use of the prebate.  No tax code, no IRS.  In fact, the 16th amendment] would have to be repealed before this can work.  The IRS goes away.  Probably my favorite part of this proposal.

I will address some other stuff soon.  The above quote made me think that you thought I was supporting the wipe out of taxes.  Maybe I was just not clear.  But, maybe this clarifies things? I don't like the way the current system works, and frankly, almost anything would be better.  A flat tax would be better than what we have.  What we have is full of fraud, loopholes and waste.  Not that the government wouldn't waste any taxes they get.  Sigh.

You guys are hot!

*and yes I mean that in the sexy time way*

We're too sexy for these posts, too sexy for these posts, so sexy we coast.

[Paden]

Who's idea was income tax in the first place? Is it too late to burn them in effigy? For some reason I want to think it was Benjamin Franklin and if it was, well, that particular invention was a solid lead clinker.

[RayvLil]

Who's idea was income tax in the first place? Is it too late to burn them in effigy? For some reason I want to think it was Benjamin Franklin and if it was, well, that particular invention was a solid lead clinker.

I'm not sure who was the man that came up with it. I do remeber something form highschool in that at one point, giving money to the government to fund things like a military and government programs was completely up to the person. It was only when they realised no one wants to give their money to governent willingly that it was decided you shouldn't be given a choice about it.

[calalily]

I have more to say, but I gotta run and do some work stuff.  I hate having to work. 

I'll wait for ya - until you have time off on the weekend etc. 

Well then, they're not wiping out all taxes and putting up a fair tax - they're replacing one system of taxation for another. 

That is exactly right! In fact that is the point of the Fair Tax.  It is not so much tax reform as it is tax replacement.  They are not saying to get rid of taxes, as that would be dumb, but to tax in a more fair way than the current system does.  I really don't understand some of the protests (not yours, I get what you are saying) that some people have on this.  This way everyone gets taxed based upon what they buy.  The rich, who buy more expensive things will pay a higher tax.  No loop holes.  Food and essentials are not taxed at all, through the use of the prebate.  No tax code, no IRS.  In fact, the 16th amendment] would have to be repealed before this can work.  The IRS goes away.  Probably my favorite part of this proposal.

But they'd still be the IRS - they'd just change their name and administer the new Fair Tax. It isn't going to produce less bureaucracy to shift the burden of the tax to sales tax - just now they will hound you at work (if you work in any kind of selling capacity). They'll also harass you if you go out of the US - instead of submitting a tax return every year, you'll be submitting every time you leave the country.  No more cheap Mexican holidays, no more Canadian drugs. They'll also be monitoring all mail and incoming goods to make sure you'll be paying taxes on them too.  IRS will be way more pervasive and involved in your lives, except they'll be called something like FTA (Fair Tax Assessment).

It all presumes that the rich spend more in the US - when in order to evade most tax all they have to do is move to Monaco and stop paying all US taxes (Monaco has no tax for the rich IIRC) so that there's a huge monetary drain for the US. 

**Bear in mind here that I have never been harassed by the IRS, and never will be with the lack of medical care in the US, as I don't plan to move there if I brain-drain (this refers to the phenomenon of educated peoplez moving overseas from Australia - a serious concern to the point that I have already had one chick in a hairdresser beg me not to leave Oz). I'm going somewhere with socialist policies and free health care for all like France  **

I don't like the way the current system works, and frankly, almost anything would be better. 

Needs MOAR GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. 

[SoggyFox]

IIRC the IRS and the income tax was 1930s, during the great depression.  So many people were in bad straits that something had to be done quickly just to make sure folks had food and a place to live.  So, Social Security and the IRS came to be - I could be wrong, but I'm sure it wasn't older than that.  The founding fathers had us with very little national taxes outside of trade tariffs - most early taxing was on a state level.

The problem with Fair Tax is this - rich people don't buy nearly as much - they already have what they want.  IT might help in the long run, but right now, it'd be the middle class bearing the brunt because we buy more than any other class. [ Beyond food ]

[Paden]

Just once, I would love to be rich for a few months and get ahead on bills and such. I'd love not to have to worry about rent being covered, utilities being paid for and food stocked in the house. It would be pure bliss to know that the luxuries are provided for and the fun stuff won't be taken out of the budget because movies is just too damn expensive to rent/buy. It would be heaven to be able to do whatever we wished because we had the money to pay for. But then again, that would make me like Paris Hilton and I find that I like having a sense of reality and responsibility.

I guess it would just be nice if the people that spent the money on the bling and the toys and the unneeded shit had to pay more in tax on them. The working class pays much more than the playing class and they need their asses kicked because of it... Oh well, the world isn't fair and it's never going to be. The only thing that is fair, most of the time, is death. No one can escape that, they can only postpone it for a time, but eventually, everyone gets claimed by the Reaper. Sure, they might get a better funeral and casket, but who cares if you have a mink-lined coffin?

[snoringunicorn]

Who's idea was income tax in the first place? Is it too late to burn them in effigy? For some reason I want to think it was Benjamin Franklin and if it was, well, that particular invention was a solid lead clinker.

That would be William Pitt the Younger, Prime minister of the UK in the 1790's, in order to raise money to pay for the war against the French. Bit late for the effigy burning, you'd have to dig him up first.....

 

[Pescado]

That is exactly right! In fact that is the point of the Fair Tax.  It is not so much tax reform as it is tax replacement.  They are not saying to get rid of taxes, as that would be dumb, but to tax in a more fair way than the current system does.  I really don't understand some of the protests (not yours, I get what you are saying) that some people have on this.  This way everyone gets taxed based upon what they buy.  The rich, who buy more expensive things will pay a higher tax.

I like this idea a lot, because I'm a complete and utter miser, and under this plan, my total yearly expenditures are less than even the prebate. Of course, I don't really pay much in the way of taxes NOW, either, hidden, or otherwise, because I don't buy stuff. The depths of my cheapskatery have to be seen to be believed.

[Paden]

I wouldn't have to dig him up to burn him in effigy, just make a likeness and burn it is all. And Pescado, I take it that you make your own lye soap for washing? That would fit your miserly ways... Fat, wood ashes and a few other things will get you a brew that will clean anything and take the skin off of your bones if you aren't careful.

[kenmtl]

Yanno, surprisingly I don't have a fundamental problem with paying taxes but, I'm a bit of socialist anyway. I'm totally for people having more money in their pockets however I'm also totally for people having the right to be sick or injured and being able to go to a hospital no questions asked. Every society needs all classes of people to function properly and autonomously. Some one actually needs to be in the factories making the cheap competitively priced goods so that someone else can sell it to you. Otherwise you become dependent on a foreign workforce, which is dependent on that governments policies, which then brings into play your governments foreign policy, and quite frankly we all know where that ends. The more you can't provide for you and yours the more you have to ensure that someone else is. If you want to be a self sufficient nation someone needs to pay for that.

My issue with taxes is what happens to the money once it leaves my hand. That's an issue of responsible gouvernment. I don't mind paying my share as long as I know that everyone is paying their share and that the money once collected it's being used correctly. That's what elections are for. I know that's simplistic but, basically that's the run down. I think that Americans have a point of view that taxes are anathema to a free society. I think the opposite is true. I think the current state of your economy shows that, I think the quagmire that is your foreign policy shows that, I think the mess that is your domestic shows that. It's not about more or less taxes, it's about what kind of society you want to live in. It's about what you value as a people and a nation. I think it's about looking at the state of your society from the ground up and deciding whether or not it's actually working for you. All of you. Tax reform only one part of it unfortunately.

[Anyerfillag]

I'm not up on taxes and such, but I know this will getting more than a few tongues waggling in England:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7594469.stm

Alex Salmond, First Minister for the Scottish Government is planning to scrap the council tax in 2009 and replace it with one based on ability to pay and, to quote, "would lift 85,000 people from poverty and save the average Scottish family between £350 and £535 per year."

This sort of action has been happening a lot recently; Scotland (my home country) slowly seems to be aiming for independence and to break away from the UK. This won't do any good to decrease resentment and hatred from some England people who feel that Scotland are doing more for its people then parliment in London and that they feel England would have to foot the bill for losses from such things as the council tax.

[Pescado]

I wouldn't have to dig him up to burn him in effigy, just make a likeness and burn it is all. And Pescado, I take it that you make your own lye soap for washing? That would fit your miserly ways... Fat, wood ashes and a few other things will get you a brew that will clean anything and take the skin off of your bones if you aren't careful.

Soap? Washing?

[Paden]

BATH TO PESCADO!!!

[deelink]

I wouldn't have to dig him up to burn him in effigy, just make a likeness and burn it is all. And Pescado, I take it that you make your own lye soap for washing? That would fit your miserly ways... Fat, wood ashes and a few other things will get you a brew that will clean anything and take the skin off of your bones if you aren't careful.

Soap? Washing?

Oh don't even joke about not bathing....I have to deal with people who honestly believe that unless they see lice crawling on their body, they won't even BEGIN to think about personal hygene. It's so fucking disgusting.
I had to work 8 hours with a co worker who wears the same jeans every day. Every day. Wether he is at work or not, the smell those things produce will bring tears to your eyes and gags to your throat.
I have tried every possible hint and he STILL insists it's random customers not him. How many random customers can you have, that all smell like a combination of baby poo, burnt sugar and fart? I mean come on!!!

/rant

I love the smell of clean! Clean people FTW! Bathing is a pleasure not a chore!!!
I know you guys are kidding.. but I was so traumatised yesterday, I kept spraying perfume around me and he STILL didn't get it. What's a polite way of saying "Dude you stink, get away from me, stand over there. And please bathe tomorrow or at least change your pants. Do me and your own self appearance a favour"

I mean there is no nice way of saying it. *shrugs*

[minionsRmine]

It's a strange concept, aye, that we might be better off with LESS government everywhere, hrm?

Now see, that's a person right after my own heart. Pescado, I could like you right now.
[hops on soap box] A 90% reduction in governmental crap would give me peace of mind! [/jumps off soap box, sliding through the lye everyone's throwing around]