Your Ugliest Paysite Creation Find: Round Two.

[SoggyFox]

Considering I've gotten discouraged just from being overlooked?  Probably a lot.

[Anouk]

However in some people's self centered world, if THEY don't care their stuff is slammed, the other person should get over it or get lost. There is no empathy. I'm not saying you should kiss their ass and lie to them that they're great or fabulous, I'm saying people should act normal, like when they talk to someone directly.

If they want to make fun of free stuff, they should, but what's good enough for people outside of the forum, should be good enough for people inside the forum. It NEVER happens though, but not because all their stuff is perfect.

[Paden]

[Warning, long story type rant begins now]

My thing? Selling pixels without a license that you cannot produce and display upon demand is illegal. EA has never given out such a document because if they had, they'd have had no problem with admitting it and those sorts of things leave a paper trail. The thinking behind pay sites is shit. "Let's take the hard work of someone else and claim if for ourselves and get money for it, Jasper!" one fool said to his equally foolish brother.

"Uh yuck, yeah, let's do it, Morrie!" exclaimed the second fool and they started a pay site. Never once did it intrude upon their somewhat wooden heads that they could be committing an illegal act and even when it was pointed out to them, they would say, "Pshaw! They ain't come after yet, whut kin we be doin that's so wrong?!" These fools made so much money that they could buy indoor outhouses, and it was good in their eyes. Then one day, they learned that someone else was doing much the same thing, and they became horribly angry, because to them it seemed as if someone was poaching in their pasture.

The brothers went after the owner of the other site and found out to their complete and utter horror, this site had better content, more creators and were, *gasp of horror* FREE! That's right, kids, they gave away their pixel productions because they made them for, oh the terror, FUN! The owner of the free site explained to the brothers very kindly why the content was all free and got them to understand that what they were doing in having a pay site was wrong. But, you know what? The brothers didn't care WHY they weren't supposed to sell pixels, they wanted the MONEY because without it, they'd have to get, oh noes!! regular JOBS!!!

So, they went back to their site and began to have the people that now worked for them make all kinds of stuff, ranging from the sublimely beautiful to the most awfully craptacular in existence. They began to threaten the other owners of free sites that they were going to do horrible things to their sites and wipe them out if they didn't shut down. They made deals with other pay site owners and began to threaten the free sites even more, until a group came about that paid the money that they desired to have the pixels. But then, oh those dastardly evil pricks!! They dared to SHARE amongst themselves the precious files! Oh NOES!! They screamed, they hollered, they banned the bad peoples that dared to give away their property for nothing! They spread their names and information among themselves and used it as a pretext to mount a witch hunt because they were protecting THEIR property!

They failed to take into account that those files were paid for. The person that downloaded them now owned copies of them. That person was free to share what they had paid for, and share they did. They did what the free sites did, they shared without asking anything in return. They read and learned the EULA, and they kept to it. They made it their reason for being, to spread word of the EULA and what you are and are not allowed to do according to it. They took a stand and didn't back down. They found others of like mind to join with and they became stronger. Others joined them, not always for the same reason, but they were united in the cause.

And in the other realms of pixel creating, the free site people went along, shared among themselves and enjoyed their forums and lives, spinning beauty out of polygons and such. Sometimes, it didn't go so well, and there was a thing that shouldn't have seen the light of day. But they were doing it for themselves and the game they loved. Sometimes, they went among the people that fought the pay sites and got advice and met people that could and would help them, and they usually appreciated not being told, "Look, kid, your stuff is shit and would torture a blind man. Give it up, you got no talent.” No, they were given tutorials, advice and praise for trying. When they approached the pay sites, God only knows what they got, unless it was assimilated…

Anyhow! Back to our story. I know that what I’ve typed may not make a whole hell of a lot of sense, but to me, that’s how I saw it and still see it. I’m against the illegal shit that the pay sites pull and I sure in the hell would rather encourage the free site creator to become better with kind words. They are the ones that are in it for love of the game and sometimes, the community they’re a part of. I don’t see the pay sites as being a part of the community for much else aside from the love of money. I’m not gonna sit here on the forum and say that this free site creator is shit. I’m just not. They have the talent and the patience it takes to do the best job possible that they can. They aren’t trying to meet a deadline or quota. They aren’t trying to cut corners in the process of making stuff, just so they can crank out more shit so they can up their numbers of items so their cut of whatever profit goes up instead of down. Sure, there are some pay site creators that make some awesome stuff. But I’ll be impaled upon a lightning rod during a thunderstorm before I go around stroking their egos because when that happens, they just keep thinking that they deserve money for what they put into the package files.

Those package files were patented by EA Games. They are the only ones with the right to make any money off of them. If that changed tomorrow, I would no longer be here because it would no longer be illegal to sell them. End of story.

[/rant]

[Devilfish]

You know what, this is a good conversation to have. Because there seems to an incredible misconception about us and free creators. The not bashing is not innately connected to thinking it's all good. It's just not appropriate for this forum and the message we're trying to send out. It's really not more complicated than that.

You know, I pretty much agree with everything you said there, except I want it said that I never said anything about the way we treat freesites. Because I've been thinking about it lately and I agree, polite silence in the face of bad cc when our opinion is not asked for really is best. But I was talking about pay files and the we generally talk about them. I know it's hard to have one discussion without the other, if only in the interest of fairness, but I see them as completely seperate issues.

People here do there best to encourage and support free creators. There is nothing in this forum that would scare a pay creator from going free. Why would they be scared? We don't bash free creators. Ever. They are no longer our concern.  In fact it's usually accompanied with mass glomping. So I'm sorry but I don't get that argument at all. In all honestly I see far worse and more insulting things said about free creators in others forums than I see about pay creators here.

What I meant by pay creators being scared by all this is that generally, if you just start snooping around here and get a feel for the atmosphere, it'll come across as very hostile. Maybe it's the MATY Redux reputation we've got going or something, but if I were them, I wouldn't have the guts to come here, proclaim I've been a misguided fool for years and am willing to repent. That takes serious balls in any circumstances and I can't fault people for not having them, even if it is the right thing to do. Whether or not we have a hostile environment here is up for debate, but if we do (and I think we do), paysite creators will either run for the hills or get defensive. I think what I meant was that if this forum is more or less the pirate base, it's not a good place to be for the people who, for now, are the 'enemy'.

I guess it depends on whether you see the majority of paysite creators as the ultimate enemy or just misguided souls. Or both.

However in some people's self centered world, if THEY don't care their stuff is slammed, the other person should get over it or get lost. There is no empathy. I'm not saying you should kiss their ass and lie to them that they're great or fabulous, I'm saying people should act normal, like when they talk to someone directly.

I agree with you actually. There's no point in being crude or mean, but the lack of empathy is just something that seems to be an internet-wide phenomenon. You've got people bitching from behind fake names everywhere, it isn't exclusive to this discussion.

[Paleoanth]

What I meant by pay creators being scared by all this is that generally, if you just start snooping around here and get a feel for the atmosphere, it'll come across as very hostile.

Good.  I don't care if they think we are hostile.  In fact, I think this place has gotten kind of namby pamby, actually.  Too much spamming of stupid crap or I agree or what have you. 

Maybe it's the MATY Redux reputation we've got going or something, but if I were them, I wouldn't have the guts to come here, proclaim I've been a misguided fool for years and am willing to repent. That takes serious balls in any circumstances and I can't fault people for not having them, even if it is the right thing to do.

I did it.  Several other people have done it and were warmly welcomed.  If someone was actually looking around, they would see that.  And besides, you do the right thing, because it is the right thing to do.  Not because you hope to be glomped on here.  Even if I had not been accepted here after my reveal, it wouldn't have made any difference to me.  I had to do what is right as soon as I found out that the EULA had not been changed.  Damn the consequences.

 Someone could go free without ever posting here or coming here.  If  they don't want to face us, they do not have to do so.  They could still do the right thing. 

Whether or not we have a hostile environment here is up for debate, but if we do (and I think we do), paysite creators will either run for the hills or get defensive. I think what I meant was that if this forum is more or less the pirate base, it's not a good place to be for the people who, for now, are the 'enemy'.

I guess it depends on whether you see the majority of paysite creators as the ultimate enemy or just misguided souls. Or both.

So, you want us to be all nice about it and hope they come here begging for forgiveness?  That was not sarcasm, I am not exactly sure what you want us to do or how to be.  Most people who want or thought about going free have, at this point, done that.  The paysiters left are pretty hard core.  We have not harassed, DDoS attacked or lied. They have. 

I am not at all interested in sending diplomats out to try and come to some kind of reasonable truce or compromise with Thomas et al.   I am not interested in what they think about me, us or this site.  I am interested in spreading the word out to people who pay for files.  I want them to find us and realize what they are doing is enabling the pay sites and their disgusting tactics.   I want every single person who is paying for files to stop sending them money.  Once the money dries up, the paysite will go away.  I thought that was the purpose of this site and our mission.  That is why I posted PM's.  That is why I posted in Sim Secret.  That is why I am here.

[neriana]

What I meant by pay creators being scared by all this is that generally, if you just start snooping around here and get a feel for the atmosphere, it'll come across as very hostile.

Good.  I don't care if they think we are hostile.  In fact, I think this place has gotten kind of namby pamby, actually.  Too much spamming of stupid crap or I agree or what have you. 

Everything Palemato said, but especially this.

And if people can't tell the difference between two very different sites, as this site and MATY are, they have bigger problems than crying in their beer over people being so MEAN to them about stuff they are making money from. Giving constructive criticism to amateurs is great. People who make money from what they do are held to a higher standard. This is the way the world works. They have a choice: start acting like the professionals they technically are, or go free and stop having their widdle feewings hurt.

Further, if you don't want your feelings hurt, you really need to never share anything you create with anyone else. I don't have much patience for thin-skinned artists in the first place, and when they're thin-skinned artists who want money for their work, they can suck it. It's like Anne Rice going batshit on amazon.com for people criticizing her books in the user reviews. Ridiculous.

[calalily]

I agree with kenmtl and paleo - totally. It's a political thing here - nothing else.

I wonder how many free creators stopped creating because people slammed their stuff in an open forum like this? It would be discouraging if you shared your creations for free only to have them spit on. It may not bother some people but it would others.

I should say quite a few - looking at the ratio with thanks buttons is enough - it certainly can feel like you're just shoving stuff out into the abyss.  But to take the abyss and the snarkiness for free - dude I don't have to upload it. I can still have stuff and not give it to you  - particularly if you're going to spit in my face for bothering to even think you might like it. I don't expect you to love it and praise it, but at least have the simple courtesy to keep it quiet that it sucks.  There really isn't so little content in the community that I need to be harangued so it comes up to your exacting standards.

**All yous are used collectively.

[Steerpike]

However in some people's self centered world, if THEY don't care their stuff is slammed, the other person should get over it or get lost. There is no empathy. I'm not saying you should kiss their ass and lie to them that they're great or fabulous, I'm saying people should act normal, like when they talk to someone directly.

If they want to make fun of free stuff, they should, but what's good enough for people outside of the forum, should be good enough for people inside the forum. It NEVER happens though, but not because all their stuff is perfect.

You forgot to say 'No offense', Nouk.

[SnarkyShark]

You know what, this is a good conversation to have. Because there seems to an incredible misconception about us and free creators. The not bashing is not innately connected to thinking it's all good. It's just not appropriate for this forum and the message we're trying to send out. It's really not more complicated than that.

You know, I pretty much agree with everything you said there, except I want it said that I never said anything about the way we treat freesites. Because I've been thinking about it lately and I agree, polite silence in the face of bad cc when our opinion is not asked for really is best. But I was talking about pay files and the we generally talk about them. I know it's hard to have one discussion without the other, if only in the interest of fairness, but I see them as completely seperate issues.

I'd say silence regarding "well made" pay files is the practiced norm around here as well. The paysite creators who come up time and time again are pretty much regarded as some of the worst in the community and can be considered fair game. But on those occasions when a paysite creation gets posted in the "Ugliest finds" thread which really isn't all that ugly (and then again, that's a matter of opinion), I've noticed that either the post gets ignored, or else one or two members will contradict the poster. This leads me to believe that among our regulars there is a pretty solid consensus of what constitutes crappy pay site work. With that in mind, if a phorum member feels like generalizing every now and then, I have no problems with it. The bottom line being I didn't join PMBD to fangurl paysite creators or defend their work.

[Devilfish]

So, you want us to be all nice about it and hope they come here begging for forgiveness?  That was not sarcasm, I am not exactly sure what you want us to do or how to be.  Most people who want or thought about going free have, at this point, done that.  The paysiters left are pretty hard core.  We have not harassed, DDoS attacked or lied. They have. 

Heh, I don't actually want anyone to do anything. I haven't got any agenda I want you all to adopt. This whole thing has just been bothering me for a while now and I thought it'd be good to hear what you all have to say. I'm no fan of the kinder, gentler PMBD either but beyond that, I don't have any suggestions besides carrying on the way we always have. Because it worked up till now. I guess I'm just a bit worried about the day it stops working, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. But like you said, the pay creators that are left are quite deeply entrenched, and sometimes I wonder how many 'neutrals' are left today.

I suppose I just wanted to re-evaluate the mission statement, because I was having some doubts about the why of some things, and our credibility I suppose. Although now that I think about it, starting this discussion in this particular thread may not have been the best idea 

I wonder how many free creators stopped creating because people slammed their stuff in an open forum like this?

Heh, I didn't even start making stuff because I wasn't prepared to deal with the snark and drama in this community. Some of these threads are harsh. So I agree with you here.

I'd say silence regarding "well made" pay files is the practiced norm around here as well.

I suppose that's true, I hadn't looked at it from that angle yet.

[Paleoanth]

But like you said, the pay creators that are left are quite deeply entrenched, and sometimes I wonder how many 'neutrals' are left today.

Oh a lot less than there were just a few days ago.  Considering what I have seen from the Reflex Sims forum folks, many of them have switched from neutral to anti-TSR.  Isn't it amazing that as soon as something affects us personally, we suddenly pay attention?

I suppose I just wanted to re-evaluate the mission statement, because I was having some doubts about the why of some things, and our credibility I suppose. Although now that I think about it, starting this discussion in this particular thread may not have been the best idea 

I don't think this was a bad discussion at all.  I kind of liked it.  I saw you as playing a sort of Devil's advocate and anyone reading this may now have a clearer idea of who we are and why we are here at all.  Not a bad thing. 

[Devilfish]

Oh a lot less than there were just a few days ago.  Considering what I have seen from the Reflex Sims forum folks, many of them have switched from neutral to anti-TSR.  Isn't it amazing that as soon as something affects us personally, we suddenly pay attention?

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around what happened there, it's such an outrage. But yeah, that's the kind of thing that shoves people off the fence, violently. I don't care whether or why you're neutral, being betrayed like that is just horrible.

I don't think this was a bad discussion at all.  I kind of liked it.  I saw you as playing a sort of Devil's advocate and anyone reading this may now have a clearer idea of who we are and why we are here at all.  Not a bad thing. 

  I always end up doing that without meaning to, I don't even know why. Glad you liked it, it usually (understandably) offends people. I try not to do it too often. But reading all your replies was good for me and anyone following this thread, so thanks everyone.

[Anouk]

However in some people's self centered world, if THEY don't care their stuff is slammed, the other person should get over it or get lost. There is no empathy. I'm not saying you should kiss their ass and lie to them that they're great or fabulous, I'm saying people should act normal, like when they talk to someone directly.

If they want to make fun of free stuff, they should, but what's good enough for people outside of the forum, should be good enough for people inside the forum. It NEVER happens though, but not because all their stuff is perfect.

You forgot to say 'No offense', Nouk.

So when are you going to let it go? Can't believe I'm saying this, but get over it already. If you were still raging on about two posts I made that were calling for the death of all GOS members then you'd be right, but posts made in defence of some creator? Do you know how many posts there are that attack creators instead? There's something wrong with you.

[dollrock]

I came for the skanky Valentine's knickers and found these beauties.




"Chrome piano", chrome notesheet included.




"with Christmas patterned book covers"




Chessboard recoloured in dead tiger and my grandma's flowery kitchen towel.




Wonkylicious.

[Devilfish]

Okay, the chrome piano? Makes me look like a douchebag for mentioning decent pay crap. That's on par with the wicker teapot, that is.