A Very Interesting Discovery...

[alia]

The Kerry bed...oooeeeeoooooo *think Harvey Birdman's lovely ESP laden judge*
Infamous.

I believe that's the one Seabree gave SIH. *snort*
Why I can remember all this shyte is beyond me....but I can't remember trash day...

Because this is drama and drama is interesting. Trash day is not interesting, hence you cannot remember it.

Hope you feel better soon, Dee.

[Moune]

Still not.  Would copyright exist if a person created their own hair texture and put on their own hair mesh?  No.  Yes, the "skin" contains their artwork, but it still technically belongs to Maxis because the codes and everything were Maxis-created (Or so I believe.  I play TS1, so I only have to worry about head and body skins/meshes. ).  And the mesh, unless they totally recoded the mesh themselves, it's definitely still Maxis' object.  Blah... Blah... The point is that copyright will never exist in the Sims.  The only people that can copyright anything would be the game creators, Maxis.  Now, it's okay to give credit to creators of custom content for their work, but copyrighting is a completely different matter.  The confusion between "crediting" and "copyrighting" is what allows several paysites to continue fucking their subscribing sheep over!

Wrong, my friend. Maxis - or EA actually - has no copyright to the mesh I create, nor to the textures I make and use in my creations. Those are mine and only mine. EA holds the copyright to the package format, but not to what I choose to put in it.

As for redistributing other people's stuff - modified or not: I know we've had the discussion about TOS'es before, and I still think it is rather silly to put extensive conditions on your creations. But if a creator asks you not to redistribute/modify/take credit for their stuff it should be respected. I mean, if I spend hours making a new bed and then offer it up to everybody I don't think it is too much to ask for just that little bit of respect or even gratitude that accepting my terms would be. It won't hurt you and it certainly won't cost you anything to show me that courtesy. I am perfectly aware that we have no way of reinforcing anything, and are left with relying on the goodwill and respect of the downloaders, but that doesn't make it right to just do whatever you want with something that was given to you with good intentions.

Calm down, guys. I don't remember the source where I read it, but I believe MOTS was doing the same thing Rose has been doing.  They're probably still doing it to whatever # of subscribers they still have left, but really, only the most retarded n00b sheep would subscribe there nowadays.

Which means that you don't really know, doesn't it. I can't speak for others, but I for one prefer that you check your facts before making such allegations here, instead of just spreading self-made rumours and speculations.

[deelink]

*sniff* Ey. Actually just wanted to refrain from posting till a creator came by.
Oh quickly, thanks glass and alia, I really am trying to get better. But I have one big blanket thief sharing a bed with me, and so I think I'm actually getting worse. We shall see. *snif* Or it's mutating into a head cold. I don't fucking care any more. Bring on the rum, that I don't die is all I'm betting on.
Anyways, you see I am painter myself, I doodle many situations, from an observational point of view. I paint a stylised version of life. However it's my perception of life, hence I guess I can call it intellectual property. Since it's, well, life interpreted. Art is very different to CC, and hopefully we won't argue about that. Right. Got it.
I guess in many stances, in regards to CC... the "intellectual property" line is a little blurred. And it's what I'm trying to get at only for clarification purposes only. For the slow witted ones. I.e: Me.
If someone copies an Ikea lamp into a CC mesh *shudders slightly* and paints, oh I don't know, a small thin pink stripy pattern/texture on it. Could have made the texture out of scratch or using a photoshop filter, I don't know.
And then the creator processes it through the magical SimPE/BodyShop etc doobeewacker, and presto out comes a custom content item -- with a Terms of Use "Read Me" txt file attached to it. That Terms of Use is the compilers  agreement with the downloader on what to do with it. Right?
And if someone uploads the custom item butchered, the Terms of Use is what will be used as evidence. And the person must take it down.

*rubs eyes* Very complicated stuff, but as long as TOU's are abided by, we ruffle the least amount of FREE feathers, and that is what we are aiming for right?
Being quite the attention loving extrovert myself, I love credit. But if I chose something as generic as an Ikea lamp, I wouldn't be surprised it another one rose up in a few months coloured bright purple with cacti horns growing all over it. After all, if that person made their own mesh and coloured their own texture on it, the only thing we would have in common would be the same resource material.

So if Creator A made a Buffy Sim...and offered her for free, and Creator B made a Buffy sim and offered her for $2USD, there can be no outcry for copyright, but there could be an outcry if Creator B's pay Buffy took any part of Custom A's Buffy thus violating Creator's A TOU.

Phew. Got it. *drowns rum* You'd think I'd know this by now, but the way this thread was going, I was really confusing myself.

[Bella the Paysite Slayer]

Wrong, my friend. Maxis - or EA actually - has no copyright to the mesh I create, nor to the textures I make and use in my creations. Those are mine and only mine. EA holds the copyright to the package format, but not to what I choose to put in it.

As for redistributing other people's stuff - modified or not: I know we've had the discussion about TOS'es before, and I still think it is rather silly to put extensive conditions on your creations. But if a creator asks you not to redistribute/modify/take credit for their stuff it should be respected.

Moune, by that logic, then Peggy and Rose have every right to copyright and charge for their creations.  By that logic, PMBD should permanently empty out the booty.  I'm beginning to suspect your pirate credentials.  Sure you're not a spy from PeggyZone? 

Which means that you don't really know, doesn't it. I can't speak for others, but I for one prefer that you check your facts before making such allegations here, instead of just spreading self-made rumours and speculations.

Actually, I do know.  I just can't find the page where I read it.  It may have been deleted since then.  That type of shit happens all the time.  If you have your doubts, then go fuck off to Mall of the Sims and get a subscription; we'll see what happens, then.

[glasscigarette]

Moune, by that logic, then Peggy and Rose have every right to copyright and charge for their creations.  By that logic, PMBD should permanently empty out the booty.  I'm beginning to suspect your pirate credentials.  Sure you're not a spy from PeggyZone? 

Not cool.

First of all, your logic is highly flawed. She's completely right. Even the EULA does not claim ownership of the meshes and textures that creatures design, only the format that they are saved in (which makes them suitable for use in the game in the first place). All Moune is saying is that it's nice to give free creator's the respect they deserve; now, if a creator is breaking the rules on their own (i.e. selling .package files), then it is the right of the community to make said files available for free, because they should have been free in the first place. If a creator is freely distributing their content but asks that people not post that content on the Exchange, or something, it's only polite (and mature) to respect that wish.

She also acknowledged that there's really nothing anyone can do to enforce these requests, and that's completely accurate as well. But, basically, if you start stealing someone's work just because you want to, then you are a dick.

Pirates aren't about getting to do whatever they want with everyone's creations, we're about making all Sims content free, as it should be. It's not a free-for-all. You might want to get a better grasp on what we do before you start slinging insults.

Edit: oh, and allow me to agree with everything Cala has said below. 

[calalily]

Moune, by that logic, then Peggy and Rose have every right to copyright and charge for their creations.  By that logic, PMBD should permanently empty out the booty.  I'm beginning to suspect your pirate credentials.  Sure you're not a spy from PeggyZone? 

Are you serious? Moune has a known freesite, more posts, and has been around for far longer. If everyone who disagrees with you is going to be designated "paysite spy" - looks like you're the only true pirate around here according to your rules. Might as well leave now if the key criteria for being "pirate" is agreeing with you.

[pickles]

If Moune is a spy, then I wanna be one too!!

All the cool kids are doing it. Join us!    you know you wanna

[Ensign EO]

I wanna be a spy!  Will I get a cool trench-coat?

Peggy could paint a picture and sell prints of that picture all she wants.  If Peggy takes that same picture she painted, recolours a painting in the game, and sells that package, she is in the wrong and shouldn't be selling it.  Although the painting is still her own artwork and intellectual property, once it is in that package format, she doesn't reserve the right to sell it.  (Am I right?)  The booty is just making files free--no one is claiming that anyone other than the original creators made the items.  All of Peggy's gap-tacular hairs are credited to her, it's just free now.

[Paden]

Wrong, my friend. Maxis - or EA actually - has no copyright to the mesh I create, nor to the textures I make and use in my creations. Those are mine and only mine. EA holds the copyright to the package format, but not to what I choose to put in it.

As for redistributing other people's stuff - modified or not: I know we've had the discussion about TOS'es before, and I still think it is rather silly to put extensive conditions on your creations. But if a creator asks you not to redistribute/modify/take credit for their stuff it should be respected.

Moune, by that logic, then Peggy and Rose have every right to copyright and charge for their creations.  By that logic, PMBD should permanently empty out the booty.  I'm beginning to suspect your pirate credentials.  Sure you're not a spy from PeggyZone? 

Which means that you don't really know, doesn't it. I can't speak for others, but I for one prefer that you check your facts before making such allegations here, instead of just spreading self-made rumours and speculations.

*hands Ensign her trench coat with the assurance that it will only be used for good and not the purpose of flashing other pirates*

Actually, I do know.  I just can't find the page where I read it.  It may have been deleted since then.  That type of shit happens all the time.  If you have your doubts, then go fuck off to Mall of the Sims and get a subscription; we'll see what happens, then.

YO! BITCH! Why don't you just go fuck off?! I have my doubts about you and your intentions and I'm getting real sick about hearing ancient history! We've learned our lesson about pay sites and we're doing something to take them down. What the fuck are you doing, aside from bugging the shit out of the members here? If you weren't smart enough to take screen caps to back yourself up, then you're a knob that needs turned until you fall out of the slot and go away! This is not Sims 1, it is Sims 2. Seems you like to hang around and try to live out the glory days if being able to swap the heads of pixel dolls!

Moune is a truthful talented lady that is no more likely to spy on us for pay sites than Stalin would start to sell flowers in the goddam bus terminals! Why don't you go fuck off to what ever rock you crawled out from under or better yet to the stinking fetid pool of putrid slime that spawned you, you pathetic rabble-rouser wanna be!? So, you don't like T$R, join the fucking club! Take your complaints about the way they treated someone four years ago to the staff there, because unlike them, we know better!

Take it to the bastards that did it, stand up to them! Don't expect us to get all excited over what happened in history, we're using that to prevent it from happening in the future! We cant' change the past! If you can't back up your claims, shut the fuck up and get the fuck out! If you cannot provide the proof of what happened on a site, why bring it up, dumbass?

Also, you don't impress me with your name. An obvious take-off on a canceled television series which leads me to conclude that you are about as original as a mass produced Goldfish snack cracker! Buffy actually knew what in the hell she was doing but from watching you in action I can say that I don't think you do. If you wanna kill pay sites selling Sims 1 content, then do what we are doing! Get off your ass, get the site, get the shit, and give it away! Now would you please shut up and go away before I really decide to burst a blood vessel on your sorry ass?

Can we nail that damn cat flap shut now?!?!?!

[glasscigarette]

Yay, Paden made cookies! And look: they're flavored with rum chips, powdered vulgarity and zest of rage. It's pirate-tastically delicious! 

[silver]

Whoa ...

I'm going to make an attempt to be kind now. This time. Don't expect this every time  ... not even next time. I'm in quite a bit of pain right now, and my pleasantness quota is about to be exhausted.

Buffy, not everyone here agrees on every single thing regarding pirating. Some, for instance, believe that some sites offering pay items are not as "toxic" as others. Some have differing views on how far a creator's rights should extend. Some disagree about whether downloading pay items, even from the booty,  is a good thing at all. There are some good forums for parrots. This is not one of them.

I do hope I misread your intent, and that you did not just tell Moune to fuck off. She indeed runs a fine free site. It's one thing to politely disagree with her .... quite another to be disagreeable with her. She certainly should be welcome on this site, as should you. Attacking each other because we don't fully agree is the very thing that would make a TSR groupie chuckle and relate that tasty tidbit to Thoma$$. It might not be advisable to do that.

I would think it lonely for TS1 people in Simland. It might just be the same for TS2 people in a couple of years.

Now I've heard that rum be good for what ails you. I'm ailing. Let's all be ailing together.

[Bella the Paysite Slayer]

Oh the drama! Yell at me all you want; I won't run home crying.

YO! BITCH! Why don't you just go fuck off?! I have my doubts about you and your intentions and I'm getting real sick about hearing ancient history! We've learned our lesson about pay sites and we're doing something to take them down. What the fuck are you doing, aside from bugging the shit out of the members here? If you weren't smart enough to take screen caps to back yourself up, then you're a knob that needs turned until you fall out of the slot and go away! This is not Sims 1, it is Sims 2. Seems you like to hang around and try to live out the glory days if being able to swap the heads of pixel dolls!

YO! ASSPIRATE! I'm here to kill paysites.  I agree with this website's mission; so fucking what if I play Sims 1?  That only means that I can't get anything out of the booty.  There's no literal rule set in stone here saying that all members have to play TS2, or else.  On the topic of TS1 custom content, how about you try searching for good TS1 stuff one day?  I bet you'd become frustrated as hell, since the TS1 community is mostly paysites, dead sites, and amateur crap that hadn't been updated since 2003.  On top of that, there's no "booty" for TS1 on ANY site.  Either way, you're fucked if you want that special item, and it's on a paysite and/or dead site.  TS1 content is 500X harder to find than TS2 content, and things could get even worse when EA shits TS3 out.  Also, don't think for one second the same neglect won't happen to TS2.

Also, you don't impress me with your name. An obvious take-off on a canceled television series which leads me to conclude that you are about as original as a mass produced Goldfish snack cracker! Buffy actually knew what in the hell she was doing but from watching you in action I can say that I don't think you do. If you wanna kill pay sites selling Sims 1 content, then do what we are doing! Get off your ass, get the site, get the shit, and give it away! Now would you please shut up and go away before I really decide to burst a blood vessel on your sorry ass?

Actually, my name is a take-off of the early '90s movie of the same name (never liked the TV show) and the ever-popular Sims character, Bella Goth.  I like both, so why penalize me for it?   This is irrelevant to the discussion, anyways.

I'm going to make an attempt to be kind now. This time. Don't expect this every time  ... not even next time. I'm in quite a bit of pain right now, and my pleasantness quota is about to be exhausted.

Buffy, not everyone here agrees on every single thing regarding pirating. Some, for instance, believe that some sites offering pay items are not as "toxic" as others. Some have differing views on how far a creator's rights should extend. Some disagree about whether downloading pay items, even from the booty,  is a good thing at all. There are some good forums for parrots. This is not one of them.

I do hope I misread your intent, and that you did not just tell Moune to fuck off. She indeed runs a fine free site. It's one thing to politely disagree with her .... quite another to be disagreeable with her. She certainly should be welcome on this site, as should you. Attacking each other because we don't fully agree is the very thing that would make a TSR groupie chuckle and relate that tasty tidbit to Thoma$$. It might not be advisable to do that.

A quick reminder: it's Bella, not Buffy.  And, don't worry, I didn't tell her to fuck off, but her post rubbed me the wrong way.  I couldn't resist an angry reply.  My bad.

For clarity:  I think that giving an artist credit is important for all files.  That's why you have "read mes."  What I have a problem with is when creators LITERALLY copyright their creations and refuse to let people share it, especially if they expect people to pay for the files.

I would think it lonely for TS1 people in Simland. It might just be the same for TS2 people in a couple of years.

Now I've heard that rum be good for what ails you. I'm ailing. Let's all be ailing together.

*Sigh* It is very lonely.  There's absolutely no place for TS1 fans to meet, chat, and fileshare.  I'm very much ailing and could use some of that rum right now...

[dietofworms]

Well, I agree that artists should  be acknowledged for the stuff they make.  But that's a matter of civility, not of law.  Sims artists can't literally copyright their creations, unless you're speaking of just the .png file (or in the case of Sims 1, the .jpg or .bmp).  They can't copyright the file that's packaged to be shared, i.e. in a Sims2Pack or package file,or .iff file, because EA owns those rights.

Don't people talk about Sims 1 at Simscave?

[glasscigarette]

Oh the drama! Yell at me all you want; I won't run home crying.

Well, that's good. You wouldn't survive long here if you couldn't handle a little drama or disagreement.

YO! ASSPIRATE! I'm here to kill paysites.  I agree with this website's mission; so fucking what if I play Sims 1?  That only means that I can't get anything out of the booty.  There's no literal rule set in stone here saying that all members have to play TS2, or else.  On the topic of TS1 custom content, how about you try searching for good TS1 stuff one day?  I bet you'd become frustrated as hell, since the TS1 community is mostly paysites, dead sites, and amateur crap that hadn't been updated since 2003.  On top of that, there's no "booty" for TS1 on ANY site.  Either way, you're fucked if you want that special item, and it's on a paysite and/or dead site.  TS1 content is 500X harder to find than TS2 content, and things could get even worse when EA shits TS3 out.  Also, don't think for one second the same neglect won't happen to TS2.

First of all, I wouldn't recommend that. Our dear Paden's teeth are sharp, and we let her whet them on whatever or whoever she likes.

Second, there's not need to be offended just because we're primarily a TS2 crowd, and our interests lie in that direction. There are TS1 players here, too, but most people just don't want to rehash issues that have essentially been relegated to the status of a historical footnote. Mind you, that doesn't mean that your links were not interesting, at least to some people, and it also doesn't mean that we hate you for playing TS1. It sucks that it's difficult for you to find content for your game, but, quite frankly, the booty is a TS2 matter. We're going to continue hosting TS2 content, and sites like SAS are going to fight for the removal of SecuROM from upcoming games like Spore and TS3. Most of us just don't care to deal with TS1.

For clarity:  I think that giving an artist credit is important for all files.  That's why you have "read mes."  What I have a problem with is when creators LITERALLY copyright their creations and refuse to let people share it, especially if they expect people to pay for the files.

Your previous posts seem to indicate that you were against people being able to lay any sort of claim to the files that they create, even the free ones. When a creator makes a texture or designs a mesh, they have a right to be credited for it, and to dictate whether or not other people are allowed to distribute content made from the same files; ideally, if everyone gave proper credit all the time, creators would not feel the need to establish rigid TOU's, and sharing would reach all new heights. While there may not be any way to enforce such rules, doing our best to maintain them allows for a more respectful and ultimately more open community. Like DoW said, the issue is one of civility, not law. Besides, the vast majority of creators don't mind it when people use their work, as long as they get credit. It seemed that you were negating all of the artistic rights of creators, although that may not have been the case. Perhaps our reactions were unnecessarily harsh, but that is one reason why.

The second and more pressing matter is your treatment of Moune. If you were being sarcastic, or teasing, or whatever, then you should have made it blatantly, painfully obvious, at least until more people here are familiar with your sense of humor. You were way out of line to say the things you did to her, and since we don't really know you here yet, it was natural for us to assume that you were being serious. And since you have not taken the opportunity to say otherwise, it does seem to be that way. If not, you might want to make that clear. We do our best to treat one another with respect here, and when we feel such boundaries have been crossed, we tend to react quite poorly.

Anyway, you'll soon realize that disagreement is one of the hallmarks of this forum, and drama is part of the fun.

Oh, and I think DoW is right: I'm pretty sure there is TS1 stuff over at the Cave.

[Moune]

Very much appreciate the confidence I’m being shown here. 

Bella, Glasscigarette already explained what I meant, and Silver pointed out that one does not have to be a big fan of the booty to be against paysites and therefore part of this phorum. So all there is left for me to say is that if my post rubbed you the wrong way, you had  better get used to it right away if you want to hang around here. We’re actually serious about what we do here, and we aren’t going to destroy any paysites if we 1) don’t know exactly what we’re talking about and 2) don’t back up our claims with screenies and other indisputable evidence – just like Paden pointed out.

And now for the Spy Club. Does anyone else but Pickles and Ensign want to join? I’ve got a few spare trench coats (gap-free) and we can quickly whip up a bunch of martinis (shaken, not stirred), but you’ll have to bring your own dark glasses.