Umm...A rant. Sorry.

[deelink]

I find it very awesome that they are lots of people around the world willing to part with their extra change so the people with no extra change can access the same stuff. It is LIBERATING, it is just wonderful. It shows the true love of the game.
You guys want to know something funny? I don't know wether Raon from Raonsims has ever said why she has pay files on her site, but it sure as hell it's not because of bandwidth issues, or is it?
I was there about 3 days ago because I just wanted to have a look at her male hairstyles (I was desperate, I just couldn't find the variety I needed and I stupidly thought, maybe she uploaded some new nice ones?) and I couldn't connect! It kept saying that the website has reached its maximum connection of users. It took me about 10 tries, before I could connect and browse. Odd isn't it?
And then there is Holy Simoly, who I can't connect to at all from work, and from home it says that I am unauthorised to view the site. Very strange indeed, I wonder what happened there?

Bandwidth is a BIG issue for the Sims community.

[glasscigarette]

I've had the same issue with Raon a few times, and I noticed Holy Simoly having the same issue earlier today. Hmmm...

[celligirl]

@Tiggerypum: Er, I think we have some confusion here vis a vis fanfic and bandwidth issues. My original post equated creating CC for The Sims and writing fanfiction. To me, they are analogous because when you're indulging in either of them you're playing in someone else's sandbox, using someone else's property. In fanfic's case, you're borrowing a fictional universe that is proprietary to someone else. In CC's case, you're modeling an object or modifying such a model and ultimately saving that creation in a file format that, as I understand it, is proprietary to EA so that it can be used in-game. In both cases, what you create, in the eyes of the law of at least the US, does not really belong to you and so is not legally yours to sell. Yet, pay content creators sell stuff all the time without so much as paying a license fee to EA, even though I often see them basing their "creations" on EA's very own meshes. This pisses me off, so I ranted.

We got to talking about bandwidth because I said early in the thread that I believe that, in general, one shouldn't have a website if one can't afford to pay for it. Things were elaborated from there and kind of veered off in different directions. In my first post about that particular issue, I should have been more clear and said that I was speaking more of a small site consisting of one person's creations that, so far as my knowledge of the issue extends, wouldn't seem to require a lot of bandwidth, at least not by today's standards. I'm talking about a site of no more than, say, 50-100 available downloads. I wasn't really thinking about the biggies like MTS2, InSim, or even, God "bless" them, TSR. But as I said, I didn't make that as clear as I should have made it.

As for bandwidth... I'm fully aware that text files aren't large, of course, but we weren't talking about text files in a bandwidth-usage context. As I said a bit up in the thread, one of the sites that I run is multimedia-heavy. It includes a large WAV-format sound archive, lots of video clips, a significant number of large-file-size animations, a huge art and screen capture/photo archive, a large multiuser database of fanfic, a well-used forum, etc., etc., etc. Oh, and lots of people leech bandwidth via hotlinking to it, as well, which is something that I'd do more about if I had the time...which I unfortunately don't. In any case, it is a popular site, I'm both happy and somewhat dismayed to say, and receives a lot of traffic, although I haven't really been keeping track of pageviews and such. I do keep an eye on bandwidth, though, and over the last year or so, it has pulled an average of I'd say about 600GB of bandwidth a month and has on four or five occasions spiked at about 1.5TB in a month. It is hosted on shared hosting with a host who offers unlimited bandwidth, though as I noted above there is fine print in their TOS that says that if your site causes difficulty to other people's sites (i.e. slow-downs, denials of service, etc.), you'll be asked to go to a dedicated server, which is much more expensive, of course. As of yet, I have had no such warnings from my host, even with the fairly large bandwidth spikes the site experienced last summer, and I've been hosted with them for several years now. So either there aren't a lot of folks sharing the server I'm on, in which case I'm just lucky, or they truly do give you lots of bandwidth for not a whole lot of money. I honestly don't know which it is or if there's another explanation. As I said, I'm not an expert on the issue. I just like to muck about with my site, is all.

[Kragey]

50-100 items with thumbnail pictures and a decent layout is still a good bit if you become really popular and people are constantly downloading. (Don't worry, I understand your original point, too. ^_~)

[Saraswati]

celligirl I think the trouble is, bandwidth is bandwidth.. Weirdly it's usually more of a real issue for the free sites, which is partially what Tig was trying to explain.  Most of the newer paysites are more overtly greedy than the older paysites and they stopped using this as an excuse a llittle while back.. now they just go on about wanting moniez like it's their right..

[Amazone]

I have read everything you wrote cellgirl. And tried to understand, my language is not english. But i have been thinking the same as you, is it right
that other people pay for you're hobby?   It looks like you know what you are talking about.
If i were to put up a site for people to download - i would check out different solutions before i started publishing free downloads of content i might have made. I do not mind that MTS or Nouks society need help. They have really done much to avoid paysites. Since then it's been a lot of developement. Why can't single paysites check out solutions?
Iit's not that expensive to rent decent servers: https://dreamhost.com/hosting.html

celligirl I think the trouble is, bandwidth is bandwidth.. Weirdly it's usually more of a real issue for the free sites, which is partially what Tig was trying to explain.  Most of the newer paysites are more overtly greedy than the older paysites and they stopped using this as an excuse a llittle while back.. now they just go on about wanting moniez like it's their right..

And saraswati, to me it looks like you are not reading what cellgirl is typing. While she is typing about unlimited bandwidth, you are still talking about how hard it is for free sites to run a website because of bandwidth problems? To claim donations to run a fansite makes me suspicious. But  it's important to keep MTS2 and Nouks out of this discussion. They are already established, for a long time ago, and i would not even think of asking such great communities to move. So please - keep them out. They only need help now and then.  No one here want to loose MTS2 or Nouk.  They've done a marevellous job. And cellgirl did explain that early in her post.

I see there wiill be more and more difficult to use excuses and blame it on the bandwidth, since the solutions for this is right in front of your nose on
the internet. Peggy like to blame her donationsets on the bandwidth, and we've always been laughing of this. Pescado write about this in the frontpage of PMBD.  The URL i gave out is just an example how cheap it is to host a huge website with heavy downloads. My cousin is also having big files, like film, videos, but he do not claim donations for any of this, everything he makes, is his own work.  And he is an expert.  If a person do not want to do some research before starting a freesite, i think it's lazyness. Too many are ordering a domain, and do not think about the consequenses. I would be rather embarrased to ask for donations to a sims 2 site, cause i
can't handle my own bills. (again, look at dreamhost.com ). This server is in USA, and i am sure there are similar solutions in Europe. I am far from an expert on this area,
but i do know experts.

I know my language sounds harsh, but that's the only way i can type english, and people will misunderstand me as usual. But that was my 2 cent.

[celligirl]

I have read everything you wrote cellgirl. And tried to understand, my language is not english. But i have been thinking the same as you, is it right
that other people pay for you're hobby?   

Essentially, this is how I feel. Yes, I understand that you can innocently make a site where you want to share a few things that you made that becomes more popular than you could possibly have imagined. Suddenly, you're getting huge bills from your host or notifications that they're going to close you because you're sucking up all of their bandwidth, etc. etc. You don't really want to close your site because you don't want to disappoint people and, let's face it, it's ego-stroking when you become "famous."   I truly do understand all of that.

But to me, it's then that you have a choice to make. You close, you cough up money, you find a different solution, or you ask your visitors for money. For me personally, the very last option for my single-creator site where I'm sharing only stuff that I created (Meaning, I'm not talking about MTS2 here. ) would be to ask other people for money. My first course of action would be to search for a different host who might better suit my needs. My second choice would be paying myself, even if it meant buying a server myself. If that failed...Well, I'd close, frankly. I would not ask other people to support my hobby. But that's just me.

[falln_angel]

Celligirl, I just have to say great first posts! I wish I'd been able to comment yesterday; I read your original post right before heading off to work and didn't have time. I think the comparison to fanfic is incredibly apt, as is your point about expecting other people to fund your hobby. I don't know anyone who charges people to, for example, come downstairs and look at their model train set, and charging for custom content is pretty anomalous in the gaming community from what I understand.

I figured I'd throw out another example, since a few people seem stuck on the 'writing/hosting fanfic doesn't cost a lot' thing.

I knit. Boring and 'grandma' aside, this is a hobby which can be extremely expensive. For example, I decided last year that I wanted to make this sweater. I paid $6.00 for the pattern (pretty reasonable) and approximately $120 for the yarn (again, pretty reasonable for a sweater's worth of decent wool). I spend many, many hours working it up, and at the end of it all, I can't sell it. Not even to recoup the cost of materials or to raise funds for starving orphans. Why? Because someone else owns the copyright to the pattern. Only she is allowed to sell sweaters made from the pattern. The only exception would be if I had express permission from her to sell it. To me that's not much different from Sims CC creators trying to sell the stuff they make.

That said, I have no problem with people asking for donations as long as they're not holding content hostage until they receive money. I'll happily donate to free sites, especially ones that provide hosting for other people's sites/creations. I do realize that sites like MTS2 and WNF use far more bandwidth than any 'cheap' host can accommodate, and I understand how terrifying it must be for the owner of an independent site to receive an email from their host telling them to cough up more money or close down. I don't think asking for some help in these situations is a bad thing at all. But regardless of how much your hosting costs, or how many unexpected bills have suddenly come up, or whatever the case may be, it's never okay to sell Sims 2 content just like it wouldn't be okay for me to sell that sweater because I don't have enough money for more yarn.

And I'm going to stop preaching to the choir now.

[glasscigarette]

And saraswati, to me it looks like you are not reading what cellgirl is typing. While she is typing about unlimited bandwidth, you are still talking about how hard it is for free sites to run a website because of bandwidth problems? To claim donations to run a fansite makes me suspicious.

Saraswati was definitely reading what other people were typing, and I don't see what she said that was inaccurate. She is simply being realistic, and speaking of one of the several tangential issues that stemmed from the OP. Celligirl spoke of the responsibility for paying for one's own site, and several others discussed how that is not always possible if a site grows larger and faster than was expected. Read Tiggerypum's post. The truth is, sites with more than a few downloads, if they are popular, can easily have bandwidth issues. That doesn't give sites a right to charge for content, of course, but it's not impossible. Bandwidth problems can be an issue. When Celligirl originally stated that you shouldn't bother running a site if you can't afford it, even she was acknowledging that there is an inherent cost in running a site, and she opened the discussion up herself. Some people chose to discuss that element of her discussion rather than the whole "creative process" aspect. That doesn't mean that they weren't reading.

[Kragey]

Angel makes a great point. I have two friends who crochet, and really nice things--big bags, sweaters, large plush dolls--cost them an arm and a leg. But they can't sell any of their great scarves or hats to make some extra cash because of the copyright issue. However, to me, that's also very different from CC: technically speaking, you don't have to pay for the materials to make CC; I don't think anybody buys the game or a new computer just to make CC.

[Sinthe]

My #1 passion is also writing. I have put more blood, sweat, effort, tears, agony, and so on into single stories than some of these shmooos have put into their entire paysites, and I don't expect a dime. Even if I did, I would be right in doing so because my work is A. good and B. MINE. Every. Single. Word. Is. MINE. And I can prove it, fucker. It's totally a labor of love, not a labor of $$$.

I completely understand the fanfic/CC analogy. I have to disclaim up to my eyebrows when I post fanfic. If I were to try to charge money for it, I would be in serious legal trouble. Hell, some of us get in serious legal trouble for writing the stuff to begin with. Meanwhile, EA has pretty much given paysites carte blanche to abuse their copyright for their own nefarious means. To me, this goes beyond bandwidth/server/hosting costs and right into the territory of ownership; that, to me, is the core of it all. In the case of both fanfic and CC, you're making something that isn't even yours to begin with, so you have no right to sell it. In fact, you should be grateful that you aren't getting a cease and desist just for doing what you do. Me? I am happy with that. I don't need a dime, unless somebody decides to send one my way of their own free will. I save the money-making for what actually is mine.

[glasscigarette]

Well, Kragey, the argument would be that the bandwidth used to present the CC would be the incurred costs in creating it. Not that I'm ok with that argument, but that would be the parallel.

And wow, I had no idea that you couldn't sell knitted things made from particular patterns. That's kind of funny. I payed for a handmade Slytherin House scarf a few years ago, and I love it; it wasn't technically in violation of any copyrights because there is no crest on it, making it just a striped silver and hunter green scarf (which I seriously doubt can be copyrighted). I felt that it was OK to pay her because she was a very nice person, and she repeatedly sent yarn and knitting samples across the country so I could properly choose the colors/textures/wool contents. I payed her for her time and effort, not the product, even though the final product is beautiful and well-made. The difference between this woman and CC creators is that she wasn't breaking copyright law, or charging for something she's not allowed to charge for; If I wanted a crest on the scarf, I would have to add it after I already owned it. I'm sure if paysite owners could find a way to get around the issue this way, they'd throw a party. 

And Sinthe, you got it darlin'!

[falln_angel]

Well, if she was going to get in trouble for the scarf, it would come from WB or J. K. Rowling, and I'm pretty sure you're correct in assuming that you can't copyright green and silver stripes.
Knitting, and I assume crochet and sewing, copyright rules are actually kind of complicated. You can't copyright a stitch pattern for a cable or certain texture, for example, because there are only so many things you can do with two sticks and a piece of string and most of these things were first 'invented' when our great-grandmothers were children, if not earlier. But you can copyright how the pattern is incorporated into a larger work, and even how that stitch pattern is written down. Which means I can't photocopy a page out of a stitch pattern book and include it with my pattern for a hat. I could go on, but we're not here to talk knitting!

And while bandwidth isn't an inherent part of creating CC, sharing these creations is what makes this hobby fun for a lot of people. And in that light I think that comparison is valid. (Besides which, the amount of money spent is really similar.)

[calalily]

I know what I've learnt from this thread - I wish falln_angel would make me a jumper. 

[falln_angel]

Okay. That'll be a $200.... donation.