Umm...A rant. Sorry.

[celligirl]

OK, when I first registered here, I told myself that, for various reasons, I was only going to lurk. But...but...I read threads elsewhere about the pay/free debate and saw so many pay creators essentially whining, "I put time and effort into my creations, so why shouldn't I be paaaaaaaaaid?!" and many people completely condoning this attitude and...and...I must rant. I'm sorry. Ignore me, if you like. I'm sorry if something like this has already been said a zillion times, and I apologize in advance if this goes long, as it likely will. I just have to get this out of my system in a "friendly" environment where it won't cause a war because I don't really want to deal with a war right now. So, I preach to the choir instead. I even thought about burying this in an existing thread, but none of the current ones seemed relevant, and I didn't want to necropost.

Anyway...

I have two Great Overriding Passions in my life.  No, neither of these is The Sims 2, but issues with both of my passions, I think, relate directly to the paysite issue and the excuses for the existence of pay-for-content Sims sites.

Passion #1 is writing. Some of the writing I do is professional. Meaning, people hire and pay me (Well!) to write stuff for them. I've been hired to write, among other things, copy for print ads and brochures, copy for commercial websites, magazine articles, radio and television commercials, and, once, the narration for a television documentary. I've also written short fiction printed in anthologies for which I receive royalties. This is using my hard-earned craft for pay, and it's entirely legitimate. Either I'm the holder of the intellectual property or I've been hired by the holder of the intellectual property in order to write stuff that promotes their product. For this kind of writing, I expect to be paid. Absolutely.

I write other stuff, though. Derivative fiction. Otherwise known as fanfiction. I do this for fun. It is a hobby. It is a stress reliever. It sometimes reboots my writing muse when it has decided to give me a Screaming Blue Screen of Death, and thus it benefits the professional side of my writing. I put every bit as much effort into any fanfic that I write as I put into the stuff that I write for pay. In fact, sometimes I put more effort into the fan stuff simply because it is something that I'm doing for enjoyment rather than something that I'm doing solely because someone is paying me to do it and has given me a deadline. Do I expect payment for fan writings? Absolutely not. Because I'm aware of copyright law, I know that, in the eyes of the law, whatever I write as fanfic is not really mine to sell. It is, essentially, the property of whoever owns the intellectual property that I am...er, borrowing. I share it freely with other fans of the same property. Even back before the Internet made doing so very simple, I had stuff that I wrote printed at my expense, and I distributed it freely to anyone who wanted it.

So, in short, I don't understand this "I put in whole hours of effort, so I should be paid, dammit!" mentality that these pay creators seem to have. I can honestly say that I have never encountered this entitlement mentality in ANY fan environment that I've been involved in, and I've been involved in more than a few. Is this common in gaming circles? (Admittedly, I have never really been into video games at all; I blame my son for getting me into this one.) Hell, one fanfic novel I wrote took me literally years to write, off and on, and it was and continues to be very well-received in the fan community to which it applies. Yet despite all of the effort I put into it, I would never expect payment for it, even if it wasn't expressly illegal to receive payment for derivative fan works. I may have written the words, sure, but the backbone of it -- the characters, the milieu, the "props," etc -- is not mine at all. Without those things, the words I wrote are useless and devoid of meaning. Rather like how without the proprietary .package format, whatever a Sims creator might create is worthless in terms of in-game use. (At least, that's how I understand it.) So, I honestly do not understand how these pay creators sleep at night, especially when they're charging for, for example, simply recoloring meshes that they did not originally create or, worse, that Maxis created. To me, they seem to be the pirates, profiting (handsomely, likely) from something that isn't theirs to sell in the first place. You guys aren't pirates at all. (Maybe the fact that you call yourselves such is therefore irony? If so, I appreciate it. ) You are actually the anti-pirates, and I gladly and whole-heartedly join your ranks, even if this is the only thing I ever post.

Passion #2 in my life is music. I've been playing the cello since I was eight. As with writing, there are two types of playing that I do. One is occasionally playing with a locally-popular indie folky-rock band who write all their own music so they earn and keep all the money they take in from gigs and CDs and stuff. I get my share from any gigs I play with them. The other, though, is playing professional classical music. I play solo for hire for weddings and such. I play with a string quartet, also for hire. I play with a symphony orchestra, for (meager) pay. For said orchestra, I served as music librarian for a couple of years, so I am familiar with licensing fees. When I would buy a set of sheet music for the orchestra, the price included a (rather hefty) performance license fee. This is a fee paid to the publisher of the music as well as to the arranger and/or composer (if alive) or to his/her estate (if dead but their music/arrangement is still not in the public domain). Reason: These are the people who own the music. The orchestra (or quartet or soloist) is just borrowing it to play it for other people who may or may not be paying to listen. Even though the orchestra I play with rarely if ever turns a profit, we still have to pay these fees to the holder of the intellectual property. That's the law.

So, when I'm in classical playing mode, I expect to be paid, but I also know that either I or the group that I'm playing with is turning over a portion of that money taken in to the actual owner of the intellectual property. I could see charging for CC if there were official licensees of EA who paid fees to EA and then they recoup the expense, plus some profit, by selling high-quality for-pay CC. I'd be OK with that, even, and if I needed/wanted what they were offering, I would gladly pay for it if I couldn't make it myself. In fact, this is what I thought was the case with TSR, that they were officially linked to EA/Maxis as a licensee and thus were entitled to offer for-pay CC. Stupid me didn't do her research until I realized that there were many other sites charging and that they all didn't appear to be licensees. Duh.

Anyway, all around, I see absolutely no legal justification for charging for CC, no matter how much time and effort the creator put into it. It is legally wrong, but worse than that I believe it's morally wrong, which makes it reprehensible. Which, in turn, makes me very mad. And when I'm mad, I get...passive-aggressive.

Anyway, thank you to anyone who read this thing. And, again, sorry for taking up space. As a writer, I'm afraid that when I'm pissed about something, it comes out in writing that I subsequently and unfortunately feel compelled to release upon unsuspecting folks.

[Redikolous]

Wow.

This has been said before, but I'm glad you put this in a new thread.  You'll find that many of us feel the same way around here.  A lot of us do some creating abouts and we we wouldn't dream about asking for money.

Have some rum.

[Zillah]

Okay - here's a question, in the interest of debate. Purely hypothetical, and yes, I know there are plenty of ways to host sites without pay content, but most of those sites eventually end up asking for donations, and, being poor myself, I can't possibly give to all the sites I'd like to and that I use regularly, though I do when I can. I imagine that's true for a lot of us. I think it's probably also true that some are more likely (rightly or wrongly) to shell out a couple of bucks for a specific item rather than for the site as a whole - perceived reward, as it were. Also, it seems like a nice gesture to offer something as a special 'thank you' to those who do donate.

What, therefore, is wrong with one or two small, cheap, but nicely made donator gifts on a site? I'm not talking about sites (and we know who they are) who offer crappy stuff for free and all the nice stuff is pay, let alone sites like T$R. The site I work with is free, and has absolutly no plans to change that, but it's something I personally have thought about - how to show a little extra appreciation for people who are willing to pitch in on the cost without being a money-grubbing scumbunny.

any thoughts? (yeah, like there wouldn't be  )
z

[Redikolous]

With well-made content, you don't have to have "donators gifts."  Our reasoning is that if you have to give money for anything, it's a paysite.  (Some paysites do this, and we usually don't think they're evil, ex. Holy Simoly.  We do think that it's not needed.)

You can create things to celebrate reaching your bill and make these things available for everyone.  Wicked Nouk Family has an aspiration set every time they get enough money to pay the bill.

[Zillah]

You can create things to celebrate reaching your bill and make these things available for everyone.  Wicked Nouk Family has an aspiration set every time they get enough money to pay the bill.

Ah - now that's a brilliant idea - solves the problem nicely. I noticed the aspiration sets there, but was too damn lazy to find out what they were for. Personally, I don't care for paysites, and as for T$R, well, let's just say I have seen the evil of their ways, once I finally started paying attention, that is. It just always seemed to me that there ought to be some extra way to say 'thanks' to the people who put out money to help support quality free sites. Wow. That was easy!

[Redikolous]

   That's great!  Glad to be of help.

[calalily]

You are actually the anti-pirates, and I gladly and whole-heartedly join your ranks, even if this is the only thing I ever post.

That is not such a catchy title though.  

Okay - here's a question, in the interest of debate. Purely hypothetical, and yes, I know there are plenty of ways to host sites without pay content, but most of those sites eventually end up asking for donations, and, being poor myself, I can't possibly give to all the sites I'd like to and that I use regularly, though I do when I can. I imagine that's true for a lot of us. I think it's probably also true that some are more likely (rightly or wrongly) to shell out a couple of bucks for a specific item rather than for the site as a whole - perceived reward, as it were. Also, it seems like a nice gesture to offer something as a special 'thank you' to those who do donate.

You can have a special download just for donations, but like WNF, it doesn't have to be exclusive.  It's the exclusivity that people are sometimes going for, I think - that they can have something exclusive, only if they pay for it.  Otherwise, they would see the bad quality of the donation files attested to here, the first time they paid, and stop.

Also, I think it should be also noted that some people donate to TSR (as attested in the quiz stouch) to keep it a place for all to upload - they are trying to do something for others - but I daresay those people are rare.

I also don't think you have to have filthy lucre changing hands to make a gift - I made gifts for my one year update, and my own birthday, and to thank a poster in my guestbook.  I'm sure people would like a "just because gift" - which is basically what the entire site is.

[celligirl]

@Zillah: Honestly? I would say that if you can't afford to pay for a website, then you have no business opening one. Plain and simple. Sorry if that's hard-line, but that's how I feel. 

If you're a creator and want to share your stuff but can't afford your own site, then you have options, MTS2 being probably your best bet. Or Nouk's network of subsidized free sites. Having anyone pay for what you create for any reason is, IMO, wrong. Now, if you hold a donation drive and reach your goal and then you offer a new free set that you offer to everyone as a thank you for reaching your goal, then I don't see anything wrong with that. I believe Nouk does that. But to give the content as a "reward" and only to those who pay you? Nope. Not right. That's "pay me because I work so hard to maintain my siiiiiiiiiite and I'll close it if you don't paaaaaaay meeeeeee!" Bull, IMO. Public broadcasting, either radio or TV, will give you a reward for donating to them, but they're not giving away stuff that they really don't own. They give away stuff that they legitimately bought as promotional items. Totally different thing. (And kind of like the booty, now that I think of it...although you don't need to donate to get at the booty, of course.)

Edited, after rereading Zillah's initial post: Ugh, I think I kind of misunderstood what you were saying. Darn phone ringing in the middle of reading! I thought you were essentially asking, "What's wrong with paying a site's bandwidth bill for them?" as opposed to "How can we thank people who donated." Sorry about that. I'll leave what I originally posted to stave off that kind of whining, but I shouldn't have said that to you. I'm sorry.

@Redikolous: Thanks! Glad I haven't pissed anyone off...yet... *guzzles rum*

[Ruloi]

I was actually just about to chip in with the public broadcasting bit, celligirl; you beat me to it.

Basically, you don't donate to PBS because you really want that totebag. You donate to PBS because they do good stuff. A donation implies a free will choice with no ill effects if you don't do it. You can still watch everything PBS puts on air without having donated; you are not locked out of certain programming purely because you didn't empty your wallet onto their desks. In that way, donation packs are silly. It's nice to want to thank the people who've donated, but offering exclusive content is retardulous. If you want to offer special privileges, maybe offer donators access to the site sans advertisements, or maybe they can download from a faster server (assuming your site is big/popular enough to warrant multiple servers). For smaller sites, maybe offer donators the ability to request content tailored specifically for them (which would later be posted on the site--for free). There are lots of ways to give donators small, appreciative gifts that don't include paid content.

[Kragey]

@Zillah: Honestly? I would say that if you can't afford to pay for a website, then you have no business opening one. Plain and simple. Sorry if that's hard-line, but that's how I feel. 

Sometimes a website goes way beyond your expectations. I had one website in particular that lasted for 2 or 3 years before Topcities.com nuked it, and I never would have guessed that it would become the most popular website for that musical character on the entire web. They actually nuked it because it ended up using so much bandwidth due to the mass amount of visitors. Again, I never ever EVER expected something like that to happen.

The same thing goes for the Sim's community. For example, I'm pretty sure the infamous Nouk never expected to become one of the most (if not THE most) popular creator of hair in the community. It just happened.

[Redikolous]

Exactly Ruloi.

MTS2 doesn't have aspiration gifts, but you get a little heart under your name when you donate, and faster downloads.  Some people don't like that, but there's nothing illegal about it.

[celligirl]

@Zillah: Honestly? I would say that if you can't afford to pay for a website, then you have no business opening one. Plain and simple. Sorry if that's hard-line, but that's how I feel. 

Sometimes a website goes way beyond your expectations. I had one website in particular that lasted for 2 or 3 years before Topcities.com nuked it, and I never would have guessed that it would become the most popular website for that musical character on the entire web. They actually nuked it because it ended up using so much bandwidth due to the mass amount of visitors. Again, I never ever EVER expected something like that to happen.

I understand that. I do. But if that happens, you have a choice to make. Free hosts only give you a certain amount of bandwidth per month, and it's usually very low as they're really only meant for hosting small personal sites. If you're notified that they're closing you due to bandwidth issues, you have a choice to make. You close, or you cough up money to keep your site going. This is a choice I had to make for a site of mine (not Sims, but a fan site for a very popular TV show.) I ended up finding a host whose lowest-price business hosting option offered unlimited bandwidth and unlimited storage. It was not expensive, and I was willing to pay for it because I know that people like the site. So, I coughed up the money and I didn't ask anyone for help.

That's not in everyone's budget, I know. Me personally, I would close my hypothetical Sims site that I could no longer afford and move the content to MTS2, although I wouldn't dictate that that's what anyone else MUST do; it would just be the right choice for me, is all. With Sims sites, it seems the popular thing is to do the donation set thing, which I don't like. I like the way Nouk does it much better, if one must ask for donations at all.

[Kragey]

I like the way Nouk does it much better, if one must ask for donations at all.

It's a great system, really. And people are usually willing to donate because The Wicked Nouk Family creates great content.

[celligirl]

Indeed, they do.

[Tempest Limmerfer]

I would offer donation sets or even (big gasp) pay files IF:

1. I had designed The SIms
2. I designed the program that allows us to re-color and re-mesh
3. I were the only game in town.

Without having done the above, it's out of the question.

Celigirl, have some cookies as well...rum is no good without the cookies.


And above all...my little $120 a year for MY HOBBY is pretty darned cheap anyway. If ever I were so famous/infamous that I needed more to support my site, then I am sure there would be someone to help for the love of the game, not for a special donation pack. Aspiration, not bribery, is best.