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Author Topic: I smell bullshit  (Read 116622 times)
Morrigan
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« Reply #315 on: 2006 December 30, 00:13:04 »
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I can't be bothered reading all of this thread, because it's just more of the same old tired arguments.  But I was curious as to whether anyone has heard of the doctrine of acquiescence?  IMHO, Maxis/EA have long since lost their rights to enforce the EULA since they've taken no action against paysites for a number of years, given their silence and lack of action against these sites, and indeed have condoned them by their association with TSR.  The same can't be said for this site, given the very short time it has existed.

Just throwing the cat among the pigeons here folks, I don't care either way.
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Doursim
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« Reply #316 on: 2006 December 30, 01:20:34 »
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if that's the case then they also promote filesharing by including meshs with sims packaged using bodyshop *hmmmm*

I like it best this way Smiley  They have the right to charge, and we have the right to redistribute free of charge.
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url=http://paysites.mustbedestroyed.org/booty/peggy]peggy[/url]  Peggy sims
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« Reply #317 on: 2006 December 30, 02:48:36 »
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Quote from: "babajayne"

disclaimer: Although I am a TSR Forum Moderator, my affiliation is completely voluntary and I get site priveleges only.  I am not privy to the interworkings of TSR nor do I represent TSR officially.  I speak only my opinion.


You are a retarded assfucker and probably just as crazy as the real baby jane. Good day to you sir.
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url=http://www.scumbox.co.uk/urapirate.swf]A pirate's life for me![/url]
exnemsims exnemsims
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« Reply #318 on: 2006 December 30, 04:49:39 »
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Quote from: "PirateBooty"
Quote from: "babajayne"

disclaimer: Although I am a TSR Forum Moderator, my affiliation is completely voluntary and I get site priveleges only.  I am not privy to the interworkings of TSR nor do I represent TSR officially.  I speak only my opinion.


You are a retarded assfucker and probably just as crazy as the real baby jane. Good day to you sir.


I agree!
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stim
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« Reply #319 on: 2006 December 30, 06:16:00 »
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Does intellectual property exist? Yes. It exists, however, game modders do not have the rights to their intellectual property in the cases of games such as The Sims 2.  Why not? Because the intellectual property was created for a specific environment which has first rights to licensing.

When a teacher in a school district writes a play to be performed by the school district, that teacher does not get the licensing rights, the school district does. This is because their intellectual property was created for a specific environment (the school district).

Sims 2 mods are created for the Sims 2 game environment, and therefore the owners of the Sims 2 (EA) has first rights to licensing.


In addition to this, to be able to argue intellectual property in a court of law, you must be able to prove authorship. Just stating "I created this" is not proof enough. Burden is on you, the author, to prove authorship.

This is why guilds exist. They provide formal environments to register intellectual property with a serial number, log of ownership, etc. This costs a fee and no two separate individuals may share the same author name.

So even if a Sims 2 creator wanted to sue over intellectual theft and managed to prove EA doesn't have first licensing rights, they'd still require individual registration of each object in question with an appropriate guild. Now then, as far as I know, there is no "Game Modders Guild."  Without this, it's impossible to prove who authored something first, when, and who actually did it.

Without a guild, your intellectual property means squat. It's just a term to make you feel better and to help you pursuade people to respect your work. However, no one is required to respect it without that guild registration and legal preceding.
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url=http://paysites.mustbedestroyed.org/booty/exnem]Exnem[/url]  Peggy Sims 2  The Sims Resource
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« Reply #320 on: 2006 December 30, 06:30:33 »
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Many of these artists sell copyrighted stuff, did they buy the rights to do this?
Lets see:
DISNEY-example Peggys kids room with Disney stuff, EXNEM's Disney toys, Movie Posters, what about the Pac Man stuff and the arcade games...

Theres a long list, but if they didn't pay for the rights to use these commercially, they have committed a copyright violation besides Maxis eula violation.
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fficial Sim Club member in all Sim World: Nouk, Marcossi, Moune, Orange Mittens, Nengi,, Fanseelamb, to many to list thei the best.
icedwhitemocha
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« Reply #321 on: 2006 December 30, 07:53:56 »
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Quote from: "Renatus"

I do a lot of things as 'hobbies'. I sew, I paint, I crochet. If someone came up to me and told me I had to give what I made to them for free because I did it for fun, as a hobby, I would kick their asses. Doing something for fun does not negate the value of my work or my time. I do not have some moral obligation to give my pretty thing to others just because I enjoyed making it, or because I'm not a professional at it. It doesn't matter that Sims 2 content is digital; most of my paintings are digital, and you can bet I'm not going to let anyoen use them however they please just because of that. I find it false logic to state in regards to Sims 2 content that no one is allowed to charge for it because it is done as a hobby.


Clearly, I need to elaborate on my position.  Renatus, I absolutely agree with you.  I make jewelry in my spare time and do indeed sell some.  I would call it a hobby, not a job.  But I don't do it to feed myself or pay my rent.  If I did, THEN it would be my job.

I am not saying that one shouldn't charge for CC because it is done as a hobby.  I am saying that "people have to support their families" is NOT a valid reason for charging for it.  I think that is also what Blue was saying: this is a hobby, not a job, and hobbies don't pay the landlord.  I don't make my jewelry to turn a profit; Renatus probably doesn't crochet to make money.  We create because it's fun, and we want to share it with others.  If we can sell our work to earn back some of the cost of materials, great.  I think it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that we shouldn't charge for our work because we made it for fun.  The same is true for the modders and 3D/graphic artists in our community.

To me, the difference is that there isn't a large corporation asking us in the form of a legal document not to offer our creations commercially.

Hopefully I've cleared up my position a little.  Basically, I'm just sick to death of the "I gotta make ends meet here!" argument some pro-paysite people use.
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KA Polonius.
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BlueSoup
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« Reply #322 on: 2006 December 30, 14:48:39 »
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That's my position too, just to help keep it clear. Like I said, if people were only accepting donations (and not requiring them), I'd be happy to send them some money if I liked their stuff.
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« Reply #323 on: 2006 December 30, 21:26:19 »
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Quote from: "icedwhitemocha"
Hopefully I've cleared up my position a little.  Basically, I'm just sick to death of the "I gotta make ends meet here!" argument some pro-paysite people use.


Yeah, totally clear. You make perfect sense and I agree with your clarified position 100%. I spoke up because it wasn't the first time I'd seen [what looked like] that opinion on here. Since I've run into people who DO think that anything a person does for fun, or does that's artistic, shouldn't be changed for (and oh it's a kick in the pants when some little brat is telling you that you should hand over your paintings to them because pretty things should be free), I thought I'd better say something to disabuse people of that notion, if they actually held it. Cheesy
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jfade
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« Reply #324 on: 2006 December 31, 15:49:10 »
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Quote from: "teadrinker"
Jfade, what I am curious about is, with your own site so clearly stating your anti-pay-content views, just WHY are you a volunteer moderator at a site like TSR that now has a pay-only section?


Well, I have to say, I like helping people out. Whether it be with the freely available content on my own site or by posting helpful information in a forum, I try to help whenever I can.

So if I can help out at a forum, no matter where the location, I'll do so. Smiley I'm registered at pretty much all major forums and some smaller ones in the sims 2 community and try to post occasionally at all of them. Except at the BBS. Bleh.

Anyhow, I feel I can help people out as a mod there. That's pretty much the reason, aside from the friendships I've made there. Plus, I honestly don't pay a whole lot of attention to what happens on the site side of things. They're two separate entities in my eyes.
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icedwhitemocha
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« Reply #325 on: 2006 December 31, 23:43:25 »
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Quote from: "Renatus"

(and oh it's a kick in the pants when some little brat is telling you that you should hand over your paintings to them because pretty things should be free), I thought I'd better say something to disabuse people of that notion, if they actually held it. Cheesy


I'd show that little brat a kick in the pants!  Anyway, I'm glad you spoke up, because I didn't realize until you objected that that's how my first post sounded.

Quote from: "BlueSoup"

That's my position too, just to help keep it clear.


I'm glad it is, because when I reread my post I was kinda putting words in your mouth.  Sorry about that lol!
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KA Polonius.
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bethgael
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« Reply #326 on: 2007 January 01, 02:00:15 »
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Quote from: "calalily"
Well, as far as intellectual property and copyright, according to Australian law, which is where I am, intellectual property recognition doesn't apply to artistic works, and any artistic design work must be copyrighted in order to allow for a legal protection of ones' rights.  


Actually, that is categorically not true.

I am in Australia and work in the Arts industry and am very familiar with both Australian and international law as it applies to artistic and research work.

I think you've confused "fair use" with "ok to use what you want" (a very common mistake that leads to the sort of plagiarism qualification that paysites use).

Your point:

Quote
intellectual property recognition doesn't apply to artistic works, and any artistic design work must be copyrighted in order to allow for a legal protection of ones' rights.  


From the Australian Copyright Council website (which incorporates changes of the new 2006 legislation brought about by our FTA with the US): http://www.copyright.org.au/information/basics.htm

Quote
Copyright is a type of legal protection for people who express ideas and information in certain forms. The most common forms are: writing, visual images, music and moving images.


ie, artistic works,

and

Quote
You do not need to publish your work, to put a copyright notice on it, or to do anything else to be covered by copyright — the protection is free and automatic. There are no forms to fill in, and there are no fees to be paid. You do not have to send your work to us or to anyone else.

A work is protected automatically from the time it is first written down or recorded in some way, provided it has resulted from its creator’s skill and effort and is not simply copied from another work. For example, as soon as a poem is written, or a song is recorded, it is protected.

Australian copyright works are protected in most other countries, and copyright works from most other countries are protected in Australia.

You do not need to put a "copyright notice" on your work for it to be protected in Australia. You may choose to put a copyright notice on your work to remind people that it is protected by copyright. You can put the notice on your work yourself; there is no formal procedure.

The notice is: © (or "Copyright") + copyright owner’s name + year of first publication —for example: © Gus O’Donnell 1968.


ie, copyright is automatic in Australia on said artisic works, provided they're the original work of the author. Thsi is in line with world copyright agreements and also applies in EURO and US jurisdictions (the differences between the jurisdictions apply to how it's enforced, and length of copyright rather than "how" something is copyright).

Fair use, as you said, covers all articles or what-have you, but only up to a certain point, presuming you are the current copyright holder and did not sell your article's copyright to a magazine along with an article (which is the usual contract format).

If people are photocopying your work wholesale in libraries, then you can, in fact, if you choose to, take action. However, in the case of research articles, most authors would choose not to, as we do what we do to further research in our respective fields. But that doesn't negate the right to do so if we choose to, and the decision not to take action is a choice allowed to use under copyright law. As is the choice to act.

Libraries pay fees to the copyright council to cover such useage that is then disseminated to authors. These fees are included in author royalties for novels. Articles are different: they're given to the magazines themselves. The magazine has paid for the article so copyright (depending on the agreement with the author) has often reverted to the magazine for a specified amount of time befiore it reverts back to the author.

It also should be noted that libraries are not allowed to "rent" items. Their licensing applies to lending only.

Australian "Fair use" covers articles for the purpose of review, criticism and advertising only (to a maximum of 10% of the total if an article or 2.5% for a longer work). It doesn't allow for wholesale useage, and all quotations must be properly credited with the name of the author, the date and place of publication and the author's copyright license poilcy (if applicable).

Renatus wrote:
Quote
I do a lot of things as 'hobbies'. I sew, I paint, I crochet. If someone came up to me and told me I had to give what I made to them for free because I did it for fun, as a hobby, I would kick their asses. Doing something for fun does not negate the value of my work or my time. I do not have some moral obligation to give my pretty thing to others just because I enjoyed making it, or because I'm not a professional at it. It doesn't matter that Sims 2 content is digital; most of my paintings are digital, and you can bet I'm not going to let anyoen use them however they please just because of that. I find it false logic to state in regards to Sims 2 content that no one is allowed to charge for it because it is done as a hobby.


Which sounds just fine until you realise there is a serious difference between the two examples. "Hobby" or not is irrelevant. Whether someone is getting paid for a hobby or not is only relevant to tax law.

The relevancy for whether someone has the right to be paid for a hobby is covered by copyright law in the most jurisdictions and is figured by who actually owns the resultant product.

In your case, your hobby can be sold because the resulting finiahed product is owned by you. When you bought the materials, you entered into a tacit agreement with the manufacturer of those materials that you could do whatever you wanted with those materials, and they do not have a policy that disallows that. You are not breaching anyone's copyright by selling your stuff (assuming they are not well known trade-marked images, in which case the packaging will have anouncements to that effect and selling the product would be illegal).

In the case of TS2, the package fileformat and the resultant package files are owned by Maxis/EA and the EULA you sign by ticking the box when you install the game and clicking on "I agree" (which is a legally signed electronic document in all jurisdictions) clearly states that you cannot make custom content and sell it, and that all resultant package files ("tools and materials") are owned by Maxis.

When you start the hobby of making cc, you have already agreed to this condition by signing this document.

Thus, paysites are in clear breach of the law and may not sell packages.

How good they are or how much time is spent on the content is a moot and irrelevant point. The fact is, paysite owners agreed not to do what they are doing when they filled in that little ticky box and installed the game. The fact that EA is not taking action at present doesn't negate EA's legal right.

To put it another way, how would you feel if someone took your digital images without your permission, put them on a maxis mesh, then uploaded them to a paysite and asked everyone to pay for them? They would be profiting from your work. See the difference?

(Although it could be argued that the so-called pets "bug" where all custom meshes were uploaded with sims made in the pets bodyshop, was an attempt to regain their rights, but I'd never spout conspiracy theories... Wink).
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calalily
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« Reply #327 on: 2007 January 01, 08:25:01 »
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Quote
Actually, that is categorically not true.


Sorry - I agree with you - merely poor wordage.  Intellectual property doesn't dictate anything about artistic works - that is just copyright, indeed that is where they direct you if you enquire about intellectual property vis a vis artistic works.

The prevailing argument at the moment in the community is not about copyright - which it has been argued that cc cannot retain once it is put into a package file, but rather about intellectual property.  In Australia, therefore, the intellectual property argument holds no water either.
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« Reply #328 on: 2007 January 01, 09:37:09 »
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Quote from: "bethgael"
When you bought the materials, you entered into a tacit agreement with the manufacturer of those materials that you could do whatever you wanted with those materials, and they do not have a policy that disallows that. You are not breaching anyone's copyright by selling your stuff (assuming they are not well known trade-marked images, in which case the packaging will have anouncements to that effect and selling the product would be illegal).

This is why I tend to use the example of fanfiction.
Most people can wrap their minds around the idea that they can't (or at least shouldn't) sell something they wrote involving someone else's characters or plot, no matter how much effort and creativity they put into it.
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« Reply #329 on: 2007 January 01, 10:25:53 »
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Quote from: "bethgael"
Which sounds just fine until you realise there is a serious difference between the two examples. "Hobby" or not is irrelevant. Whether someone is getting paid for a hobby or not is only relevant to tax law.


Which was what I was getting at. Saying 'paysites shouldn't exist because no one is allowed to make money off of a hobby' is ridiculous because it focuses on the nature of the activity as a leisure activity and ignores the actual issue at hand, as you outlined it.
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