Numenor's Opinion of pay vs free

[Amazone]

:shock:
I've been quoted by the great Pescado...

Wow.

Something I said made sense??? :lol:

Are you sure you are quoted by human beeing and not a robot without
a heart, or an animated leaderhead? I know i challenge the destiny here
by typing this, but that's me.

mm. by the way, do not doubt yourself, you do not need the big boss
confirmation to believe you have made sense in what your typing.

I just wonder if Pescado has a hack who kill babies?

[alia]

...I'm just too scientific at heart.  Manipulating data is wrong, even if it's a poll about content for pixel dollies.

I agree. If the questions are skewered, there is no point in even starting the poll. (Unless you are after specific results, but that is not scientific, it is just manipulating the results and renders the poll worthless.)

When reason has dictated something to be correct, no amount of emotion, not even kittens, will move me. A true INTJ is unswayed by emotional appeal. We likewise are incapable of truly comprehending the foibles in others which even make such an attempt worth considering. Resistance is futile.

OT:

OMG! So you're a Mastermind too!
 :lol: I thought you reminded me of a friend of mine who is also a Mastermind.

He's a grumpy old* man too, and I can envision him living in a bunker.

*if you consider 33 old. I don't, but he acts like he is at least 50.

[blackmars]

After reading Numenor's long-winded essay and trying to make some sort of sense out of it I have this to say....he just wants someone to stroke his ego. I'm tired of creators (and sometimes the fans themselves) in this "community" thinking they're owed something by either EA/Maxis or the fans.

If Numenor bothered to go beyond PMBD he'd realize alot of people who are "non-pirates" still would consider him, VitaSims, and Holy Simoly paysites because of their donation files. And as for those polls...it's so black and white it's disgusting. Not everything is so clean cut. Sheesh.

[HawkGirl]

And HawkGirl - he has a donation item.

Well then he has to stay in the booty. I understand Hec's thinking on that. Guess I'll go donate for his donation item and tell him to keep the item.

[Saraswati]

After reading Numenor's long-winded essay and trying to make some sort of sense out of it I have this to say....he just wants someone to stroke his ego. I'm tired of creators (and sometimes the fans themselves) in this "community" thinking they're owed something by either EA/Maxis or the fans.

We do owe Numenor something, we wouldn't have half the things we do in the game if it wasn't for him. I for one wouldn't have his Base Game starter, and that totally changed things for the builders.

I must admit, every time I hear this from one of you guys I get a cold feeling at the pit of my stomach. Because I've been on the receiving end of this sort of attitude to a minor degree, and it made me want to throw something, very hard. Because it's like fans take for granted that creators will always be there, and we won't.

The free creators all have jobs and lives, and we don't get anything out of this other than the odd "thank you" so if the net result of our efforts is that  people start yelling that we haven't done "more", demanding we spend weeks of our time fulfilling every one of their absurd requests and having what amounts to a tantrum because we haven't gone down a path they want, it starts to make us wonder why we even bother.

I helped a whole lot of people learn a whole lot of stuff in the last two years, and the net result of the reactions that come out of that type of  attitude was that I decided I was going to stop helping anyone but my friends. Because quite frankly if all I get for trying to help the community is abuse and too much of my free time taken up, it makes me want to tell the community to get stuffed.

Angha

edit: I'm adding to this now I've calmed down slightly.. I'm not talking about that obsequious, sickening respect that people had for skinners etc two or three years ago, I'm just talking about decent, honest, straightforward respect for a fellow human and the odd thank you when they've done something decent.

[Paden]

I can understand and empathise with how you feel on the matter, but now you know how we as a group feel. We've been doing this for some time, and we're still spit on and reviled. We get slapped at and kicked at all the fuggin time!
We're trying to keep people from spending money on worthless shit that they will hate or be aggravated by and we're bad because we advocate file sharing.
You gave your time and expertise in helping other people learn. You got slapped down in return for it. That hurts. And it hurts when you help to get items for the booty or speak out against the paysites and people treat you like you're a monster straight from hell.
Seems like no one can win cept the paysites cause they pay their people to come up with shit to sell to make more money. A hobby has become a business and we're wrong to protest them ripping off others? I'm not saying that is what Numenor has done, God knows he's done very much for each and every gamer, but I've learned something from one of my surviving brothers.
He (my brother) only got into game modding because he wanted to see how the damn thing had been put together and made to work. He's got one of those minds that takes things apart and then puts them back together in different ways to see what will happen. Reverse engineering, kids. Many non-gamers do it because it presents a challenge and they have fun with it.
I appreciate what they come up with it, and give thanks that they do these things. But why should I sit next to their ego like I would sit next to my cat and stroke it constantly when I've other things to do?
I'm thankful. I'm grateful. I've said all of this before. I try to treat people the way that I would like to be treated but keep getting kicked in the face. There are times when I kick back, like trolls and Fuck nuts and all of that.
But I don't lash out at our creators, unless they are greedy bitches/assholes. When they demand money for their talents/creators, that is when I look for stuff made by other people and draw the line. And then I try to do something about it.

[calalily]

The free creators all have jobs and lives, and we don't get anything out of this other than the odd "thank you" so if the net result of our efforts is that  people start yelling that we haven't done "more", demanding we spend weeks of our time fulfilling every one of their absurd requests and having what amounts to a tantrum because we haven't gone down a path they want, it starts to make us wonder why we even bother.

I do agree that Numenor has done alot for this community. *However* that doesn't mean he gets to do what he wants, and we should just tow the line.  That's how all this business started in the first place with payfiles - the downloader had to shut his mouth - never criticise - never ask what the hell the donation is for - never question the use of the word "donation".  

The key difference here is that Numenor gets lots of thanks - almost every poster here has said that they value him, with the exception of the few.  But he's not asking for thanks, he's asking money for a payfile.

Kate at Parsimonious doesn't do that, Quaxi doesn't do that, Pescado doesn't do that, Two Jeffs doesn't do that, Kathy and Eric at Insim don't do that, Delphy doesn't do that - these are all big names.  Sure they ask for a thanks, or feedback or even a lack of abuse - but not money in exchange for content.

Not to mention that Numenor asks a great dichotomy of the downloader if he gives his file to those who do whatever it is to get that file (because he says he has given it out for free, but says it won't be just given to those who ask for it).  We're asked by 99% of creators *not to email requests* - but in this case, some secret way exists in which to make a request for the file for free.  I mean either way, the community is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

[silver]

Well, I am not a Sims creator, so I can't say how Sims creators feel.

But I DO know how it feels to work really hard on something for a community. To put hours of time and work into making something nice. To be really proud of my efforts and figuring that surely, people will like what I did ... and did out of real affection for them.

Then within an hour when I wasn't even in front of a computer, I got run over like a pancake, had my work treated like toilet paper and thrown away, and told that I was a schmuck. An uppity schmuck.

Yes. I know how that feels. And I did the emotional poll and long explanation thing, too. And it didn't make things better. It made things much, much worse. That's why I wrote that bit about emotional polls. Been there, done that.

I've also been in Hecubus' and Gwen's shoes. I openly presented a situation with a member to the community, what we were to do about it was debated, and we reached a consensus as to what should be done.  We agreed that it should be done out of fairness to a community, and that there were to be no exceptions. Everyone seemed OK with the decision, and the one or two who voiced concern finally agreed it was for the best.

Then ... you guessed it. It turned out the member did as she pleased and complained about our decision to the community ... and about me. I mentioned the decision we reached weeks earlier. And suddenly ... yup ... when I wasn't in front of the computer, I had my efforts treated like toilet paper and thrown away, and I was told that I was a schmuck. An unyielding schmuck at that.

Been there, done that.

So I am not totally unsympathetic to either side. Or rather, unempathetic. But I do agree with Hecubus and Gwen in the end. I wished it didn't have to come to this. I'm not totally comfortable with the decision, and still wish that somehow, all sides can come to a satifsfactory compromise. But it ain't lookin' good right now.

And I have the feeling that many others here have been in a similar boat. And who knows ... maybe they've felt like pancakes too, in the past. (Maybe I should use that pancake bunny macro.)

I will give Pescado one bit of credit ... he has not pretended to wash his hands of everything. He has, in the end, taken responsibility for the final decision. I can tell you that many board owners do not, and will let their mods hang.

Now I don't want to be too nice to Pescado. We have rules against that sort of thing.

[Zazazu]

*if you consider 33 old. I don't, but he acts like he is at least 50.

Oh. My. Goodness. He's only five zero years older than me. That's scary.

[alia]

*if you consider 33 old. I don't, but he acts like he is at least 50.

Oh. My. Goodness. He's only five zero years older than me. That's scary.

He's only old because of his grumpy attitude.  :lol:

I'm 32 and I don't consider myself old.

[Zazazu]

I'm 28...closing in on 29...and I really don't consider anyone old anymore. I also don't really consider myself an adult.

[blackmars]

Angha Tyl, my point was that I'm tired of how so many people will either threaten to run with their goodies back home or either put down a creator because they aren't being catered to. I believe Numenor does deserve respect but he doesn't deserve any ass kissing from me.

[HawkGirl]

After reading Numenor's long-winded essay and trying to make some sort of sense out of it I have this to say....he just wants someone to stroke his ego. I'm tired of creators (and sometimes the fans themselves) in this "community" thinking they're owed something by either EA/Maxis or the fans.

We do owe Numenor something, we wouldn't have half the things we do in the game if it wasn't for him. I for one wouldn't have his Base Game starter, and that totally changed things for the builders.

I must admit, every time I hear this from one of you guys I get a cold feeling at the pit of my stomach. Because I've been on the receiving end of this sort of attitude to a minor degree, and it made me want to throw something, very hard. Because it's like fans take for granted that creators will always be there, and we won't.

The free creators all have jobs and lives, and we don't get anything out of this other than the odd "thank you" so if the net result of our efforts is that  people start yelling that we haven't done "more", demanding we spend weeks of our time fulfilling every one of their absurd requests and having what amounts to a tantrum because we haven't gone down a path they want, it starts to make us wonder why we even bother.

I helped a whole lot of people learn a whole lot of stuff in the last two years, and the net result of the reactions that come out of that type of  attitude was that I decided I was going to stop helping anyone but my friends. Because quite frankly if all I get for trying to help the community is abuse and too much of my free time taken up, it makes me want to tell the community to get stuffed.

Angha

edit: I'm adding to this now I've calmed down slightly.. I'm not talking about that obsequious, sickening respect that people had for skinners etc two or three years ago, I'm just talking about decent, honest, straightforward respect for a fellow human and the odd thank you when they've done something decent.

The problem as I see it, and why I agree with what is being said as to why it has to stay in there is this...if we say well Numenor has done so much for the community, it's not fair to include his things. It makes us all hypocrites. Either we are for free CC, or we are not. There is no gray area there. We cannot pick and choose who goes in and who stays out, just because we like them. I like Holy Simoly, heck I even like Rose and when you donate for all she sends you like 200 items. So it comes to about 25 cents a piece. I know many hate her here, but she has never done anything to me. She has always gone out of her way to be friendly and helpful with me. They both are in there. Many sites with only one donation item are in there. I'm sure there are many good people that have done a lot for the community in the booty. I don't hate paysite owners, I think many of them are friendly people, that have given a lot to the community. Other than Thomas and Steve. I don't see how they have contributed anything to the community, anyplace other than their own pockets. I hate what they represent, the division in the community. The bans, the no refunds on broken merchandise. 2.50/5.00 may not be much to some of us, but it may be a kids whole allowance and everything to them. All the sites in the Booty I believe have free content, much more free than they sell, but they are in there, and he should be as well. I don't like it anymore than you do, but I see Hec's point that we cannot choose and it should not be removed.

[blackmars]

You mentioned Rose...Rose may not have done anything to you, but she did give out Paypal information on customers.

.

[Apsalar]

It comes down to this simple thing. We greatly appreciate and adore Numenor for what he has done for this community. But if a tons of sincere thanks and the worship of lots and lots of people isn't enough, and if we end up being perceived as assholes for honestly standing up for what we believe is right, then, friends, as one of my favorite fictional characters use to say: so be it!
(you're welcome to guess what fictional character that is :wink:  )