An idea, fighting fire with fire.

[ratfink]

Ratfink, you are a paralegal not a lawyer.  For you to defame a lawyer you have no idea who it is or what they said is not wise.

I think you misunderstood what I said.  I am not claiming anything negative about the lawyer, what I am saying is that you may have misunderstood what he was saying since if he did say it as you claimed it would be extremely irresponsible.  It would be the equivalent of a doctor saying they can cure a specific form of cancer or major disease in every situation.  You don't need to have a medical degree to know that if that is said it would be pretty irresponsible.

If you are going to play with the big dogs it's best to not piss on your friends.

Big dogs?

Both you and HawkGirl have a point, and it would be very hard to track down all of the images and the artists but I do wish you luck on that.  In the meantime I'll give you an example. Nene Thomas, is a decent and pretty well known fantasy artist.  Tsr has several of her paintings up for download.  Some are free some are not, if you go to her site however www.nenethomas.com she expressly forbids the use of her work for commercial gain without express written consent.  That is copyright infringement in true form.

That would be a good example of the kind of people whom would probably want to know that people are using the work in a commercial manner.  If you have any links to her work on TSR I would a love to put together a email for her showing her the infringement and offer any help I can provide (in my capacity as a non lawyer) to protect her work from abuse.

[ratfink]

http://www.charmedsims.org/design_paintings.html
I know who's artwork this is and the contact information.

http://www.simultaneousdesign.com/TS2/FrontPage.htm
Selling artwork from several different artists.
I also know who all these artists are and how to contact them. She has a mix of artists here. Some found in public domain, some from Dover which means she can use a certain amount of the images. Some are folk artists. Some fantasy artists.

Thanks for the great help.  I do appreciate your work.  For the first if you want to let the artist know about the infringement please let me know so I can mark them as contacted.  If you would prefer me to contact them please pm me the contact info so I can get a hold of them.

The pay section at the bottom of paintings seems to be all Salvidor Dali's work witch almost all of it still under copyright and will be for some time.  I will get a hold of Artists Rights Society that manages his estate's copyrights.

Thanks again.

I didn't check out TSR because I don't go to TSR. Someone else will have to check out that site for you.

Understandable and no problem.

[Solander]

Fighting fire with fire is a really, really stupid idea in my eyes. Nothing personal against you, but you should really consider, if you are able to keep control of it after calling up sleeping dogs.

What makes you guys so certain, that only "pay" sites will be affected? Some underemployed laywers may find it very interesting to check out every single sims page after another? Jonny Depp sending his laywers to this site, as lots of you guys did use his picture as an avatar?

And EVERY single sim site, that displays ads, is a "commercial" site in the eyes of a bored laywer and could be worth a try. As you upload copyrighted stuff to a page to attract visitors, who generate revenues.

Do, what you think you have to do, but there have been lots of people killed while fighting fire with fire.

Just my 50cents or whatever is is called.

[AW]

For general purpose information:

What are the exclusive rights belonging to the author?

As a general rule, the distribution right and the public display right expire when the copies have been sold. That is, the author doesn't have a right to control the redistribution of a sold copy of his or her work, or control the public display of the sold copy. (The exception to this general rule is that the copyright owner does have a right to control the rental of a sold copy of a sound recording or a computer program, subject to certain limitations.) This is called the first sale doctrine. The other rights do not expire when the copy has been sold, so that the author still has the right to control the reproduction, adaptation, or public performance of a sold copy of his or her work.

Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 106 Exclusive rights in copyrighted works

[calalily]

Some underemployed laywers may find it very interesting to check out every single sims page after another? Jonny Depp sending his laywers to this site, as lots of you guys did use his picture as an avatar?

Yeah, Johnny Depp is going to send a lawyer all around the web, forcibly removing avatars, and get himself rated "biggest dick in the world".

As for underemployed lawyers - this site is in Malaysia.  They'd be some rich underemployed lawyers, with too much time on their hands - otherwise known as the unemployed - and they don't have any money - so - homefree.

[derMarcel]

As for underemployed lawyers - this site is in Malaysia.  They'd be some rich underemployed lawyers, with too much time on their hands - otherwise known as the unemployed - and they don't have any money - so - homefree.

What about all the free Simsites, that most likely are not hostet in Malaysia? I think most simsites are using paintings from other artists - why should they (the artists) or their lawyers make a difference between pay and freesites. I don't think, that they care about the sims-community.

This "fighting fire with fire" campaign might create a big problem for every simsite - not only for paysites. I thought, that that is not what you people here wanted.

[calalily]

What about all the free Simsites, that most likely are not hostet in Malaysia? I think most simsites are using paintings from other artists - why should they (the artists) or their lawyers make a difference between pay and freesites. I don't think, that they care about the sims-community.

Well, for a start, freesite owners aren't making money off the copyright - so the very least they're going to get is a "remove it or else" notice. If you don't remove it after that, you're a dick that deserves everything you get.  

There's nothing to gain from suing someone who doesn't have any money, and they wouldn't bother - it would mean huge losses, and any lawyer worth their salt would tell an artist such.  Poor people just lose, declare bankruptcy and stick the opposition with a big arse legal bill.  Paysites on the other hand, they are making money.  I hear they use it to buy holidays, and $4000 modelling programs.

[derMarcel]

I don't know how this is in other countrys, but in germany a non-commercial blog had to pay about 600 €, because the owner had a small (copyrighted by an other site) photo from a bread in his blog. No Judge had to decide it - in german it is called "Abmahnung" what you get in cases like that. You can accept it and pay, or take the risk to get sued. I - and I think most other freesite owners - don't have the financial background to take the risk of getting sued, so I would pay and close my site.

The costs and the risk for the lawyer is very, very low.

[calalily]

Well then, the message is pretty clear - don't use copyrighted images on your site or your content.  I don't really see how it's a debate - you shouldn't do that anyway.

[Solander]

I do perfectly agree with you, that one should never use another persons copyrighted content. But lots of free sites (e.g. MTS2 etc.) contain HUGE amounts of obviously copyrighted content. And it's not the problem of the uploader, it's the problem of the site owner, if someone doesn't like this.

The only thing i wanted to say is: If you start something, you should be absolutely sure, that you know, what's going to happen. Including worst case scenarios, which are maybe unlikely, but should also be taken into consideration.

[SparklePlenty]

I do perfectly agree with you, that one should never use another persons copyrighted content. But lots of free sites (e.g. MTS2 etc.) contain HUGE amounts of obviously copyrighted content. And it's not the problem of the uploader, it's the problem of the site owner, if someone doesn't like this.

The only thing i wanted to say is: If you start something, you should be absolutely sure, that you know, what's going to happen. Including worst case scenarios, which are maybe unlikely, but should also be taken into consideration.

Well said, Solander. Well said.

[dietofworms]

I also think it's a bad idea.  Copyright law in the US at least makes no distinction between commercial and noncommercial copyright infringement.  It doesn't matter if you're selling something or not, you can still be found in violation.

And I agree that sims sites--pay and free--use tons of copyrighted material.  The fabrics that people use for recols, the wallpaper that's used in Homecrafter, the pictures used for deco, even clothing styles without logos--so many of them are copyrighted.  Yeah, small sites probably won't be persecuted.  But I recall in Sims 1 days that sites were receiving cease and desist letters from Disney and a general scolding from the FLWright Foundation (although a limited permission was later given in that case).  And I'm sure there were others I don't know a bout.

You can say, don't use copyrighted materials, but that's unrealistic. Are creators going to make all their wallpapers from scratch?  Or make only abstract paintings?  Etc. And you might argue, get permission then.  I tried (again for Sims 1) to get permission from artists whose work I was simmifying.  In the cases where I heard  back permission was granted, but most of the artists never replied.  And silence isn't equivalent to permission.

So...I think this is one case where the fire can jump back and burn us, too.  It's not worth the risk.

[AW]

I agree that no steps should be taken.  PMBD is here to help/make/destroy (insert you terminology here) paysites.  We are not legal hound dogs.  This would serve no purpose in my opinion.  We are also not here to monitor legal/illegal activity with sites.  Because there may be paysites with this content, there are probably free sites that do it as well.  

Also, if PMBD is storing files of the content, are we liable as well?  And there is a difference between commercial and non-commercial in copyright law.  Non-commercial refers to only in educational situations or not-for-profit.  Paysites have an argument with this anyway.  They are charging for site access, not item purchase in most cases, so the copyright infringement argument would be mute and it is not a tangible reproduction either.

We don't need to mount an all-out attack on the Sims community.  It just isn't necessary.  We are already seen as "villians and thieves".  I can't stop you from doing what you want to do, but I really would be careful because will the end justify the means?  What payoff are you hoping to gain?  What is the benefit?  

We need to be vocal to some degree, but not harassing and not radicals.

[HystericalParoxysm]

I think a positive effort would be much more effective.  If there is enough free content out there, people don't need to pay for paysites.  I don't think any legal action would be taken against any free sites as a result (besides some C&Ds perhaps) as any money to be made off suing would be negligible compared to the costs of doing so, but a can of Disney-shaped worms is not something I think anyone wants to open up on this community.

Learn how to make content.  Get good at it, and share it for free so there's good free content out there for folks to use.  Promote free sites.  Don't pay for pay sites.  Promote sites like Money Better Spent (is that back up yet?) so people who are considering paying for content actually know what they're getting.

I know ya'll are paysite haters and that's fine - but remember, there are positive ways that you can contribute to the cause without bringing down a rain of C&Ds on the free community - which I don't think anyone besides the paysites believes must be destroyed.

[ratfink]

What makes you guys so certain, that only "pay" sites will be affected? Some underemployed laywers may find it very interesting to check out every single sims page after another? Jonny Depp sending his laywers to this site, as lots of you guys did use his picture as an avatar?

First of all a lawyer will lose his license very fast if he goes around soliciting cases very fast.  That is a major ethical violation of all the state/provincial bar associations that I know of.

That said I will assume you are talking about staff or cotnracted lawyers...
For two reasons, first it tends to be very bad PR to go after people not profiting off your work, or for that matter not depriving you of money.  Secondly they are getting the paysite stuff on a silver platter, they are going to have to do their own damn research if they choose to go after freeware, an expense I don't see them all that willing to front.  Furthermore contrary to what you think it may even garner less attention from copyright holders since they will see the community as self-regulating where it matters.

And EVERY single sim site, that displays ads, is a "commercial" site in the eyes of a bored laywer and could be worth a try. As you upload copyrighted stuff to a page to attract visitors, who generate revenues.

Being 'commercial' means nothing, the sites would get advertising revenue regardless of if the content was there.  What changes things is if the items are being sold, there is a tangible money being made off the items.