For NeptuneSuzy

[calalily]

Ah - can't answer that one as you can upload my stuff, recolour my stuff, paint my stuff on your car - so long as it's free - I don't limit anyone uploading to the exchange or anywhere else.  I only ban paysite use.  And I'm considering taking down the link thing - because I didn't mean it to be enforced strictly - I just wanted them to refer people to me if someone asked.

I actually suggested in one of the WCIF threads to someone who wanted different colour skins that I had them with designs on the face - but that they were welcome to remove them and use the base colours.  Seeing as I go about 30 hits from that one post, I'd say it's the right decision - and other simmers appreciate it.  

[Moune]

I’m sorry for setting this thread back a few pages, but I’m a little behind and I’m a little confused.  :?

I don’t remember anybody saying that paysites were good, nice and/or legal. That wasn’t NeptuneSuzy’s message as far as I understood it (not including the screenshot here), and I certainly didn’t say so either – or at least I definitely didn’t mean to. So maybe there’s some misunderstanding going on.

But ... Paden, I’ll use you own words: “Wake the hell up and pull your head out of your ass” A contract, such as the EULA is NOT superior to laws. On the contrary, laws are above contracts in the legal hierarchy, so laws overrule contracts. If a contract stipulates something different than national law, the law overrules the contract. The contract – the EULA – becomes void. Hence why the EULA is not such a clear-cut argument about why paysites are definitely, indisputably illegal. Hence why I wish you guys would stop throwing it around all the time. There was an English corporate law student somewhere saying something about the power of ‘contracts’. I’d advice that law student to learn a little more about the legal hierarchy before they graduate. Otherwise they risk getting themselves and their clients into some serious trouble. Contracts can NOT overrule national law.

Along the same lines: When ‘EA says’ something it is their point of view coming out. It is not a legally binding point of view and should not be regarded as such. In any case, in my opinion there are much better arguments to be used against paysites than the EULA one, which is why I brought it up.

Ok you have got to get this straight if you are going to be a pirate on this site. MAXIS didn't give a rat's ass about pay sites; MAXIS invited TSR to conventions and gave Thomas sneak peeks.

I did get that exactly straight. I don’t at this moment remember exactly which of the Sims 1 (ONE) expansions it began saying ‘EA Games’ at the intro together with or instead of ‘Maxis’, but it was several years ago. EA are just as guilty in accepting paysites as Maxis. If they are changing their stance now it is for different reasons – one of them being PMBD, but I’ll get back to that.

The legality of the issue may be "clear cut", but ultimately, "not illegal" functionally amounts to "legal", given that the system ultimately force-maps onto black and white.

I’m not debating the legality/illegality of PMBD. I’m saying that the illegality of paysites is not clear-cut.

As a matter of physical practicality, this is ultimately infeasible. Million, if not billions, have been invested in just such an endeavor. All of these efforts have proven to be entirely fruitless. Resistance is futile.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. There is no way to control what happens to your stuff on the internet.

But at least don’t stick it in our face so blatantly that you don’t give a damn about our wishes. And that goes for TSR too.

The truth is, nobody ever really has.

I think a certain amount of people do actually give a damn. I can think of several incidents where someone took credit for another creator’s work and at least parts of the community reacted strongly to that. There were probably even people from here among the ‘reactors’.

So what should we do - go back to being silent about it? Suck it up and shut up?  

No, I don’t think you should. PMBD HAS made a difference and I acknowledge that. I was just trying to say that is sad that it has to be that way.  

Now I can’t find the post, but somebody said they didn’t understand the whole control thing. I’ll try to explain. Personally I put a very liberal policy on my creations. They are free, recolorable, clonable, shareable, uploadable, redistributable, whatever-able, as long as I get credit for making them and they aren’t used for pay or donation purposes. I would be very angry and rather disappointed if one of them one day ended up on a paysite - or on a freesite, but with someone else’s name underneath it. Meaning somewhere I didn't want it to go or in a way that I didn't want it to be there in. Is that difficult to understand?

If you benefit from what I create, is it really too much to ask that you respect what I ask you not to do to my creations?

That’s what the control thing is about.

I know this is already a very long post, but I’d still like to clarify something. I agree with PMBD’s mission, but I think there are things that could be done better or differently – which is why I finally opened my mouth. I think there are quite a few people like me out there who don’t like paysites at all, but who also have issues with PMBD’s way of doing things (and they may not be the same as my issues with PMBD, of course). We don’t have very many places to go at the moment to make our voices heard. I may just be an idealistic dreamer, but I think it would be great if there were room for a less ... I don’t know .. ‘hard’ line at PMBD. If EA right now is collecting information about paysites – including TSR – it is because they have started to become more of a nuisance than an advantage. That is very much due to PMBD, the efforts of people here and the amount of people supporting those efforts. I mean, Nouk’s emailing with EA is great. Hecubus’ ‘Money better spent’ initiative is down-right fabulous. Those statistics that she collected on what various paysites cost you should be put up as the top-most sticky here. With bold, blinking Peggy-like characters. And I’m sure many more people would support her initiative if the whole PMBD crowd were seen as less harsh and ... shit, I can’t find the word ... disrespectful is the only one I can think of. The more people behind this cause, the more chance of success.

And just a quick return to another reason why I don’t find the EULA argument a particularly good one. Somebody has already pointed out that the Sims community mostly consists of women. A lot of us women react more strongly to emotional or moral issues than to legal, factual ones. Which is why I think for example pointing out how paysites have abused their paypal buttons would appal a lot more people than what is in the EULA. I mean, how about assembling a list of paysite scams? The Hern Project, Sasilia and her 'charity' etc. If any crowd of people could or would put together that list, wouldn’t they all be found here?

Anyway, I guess I should apologize about the long post, but I’m not sure if you pirates do that. I just got the impression that some people here thought I was NeptuneSuzy’s pal brought in for the occasion, and I’m not.

Gotta go and find myself a bottle of rum now ...   :wink:

[Paden]

Sorry if I'm a bit more bitchy than normal, but with a bone broken in my hand, it's normal. Ok, so what you're saying is that it's ok to break a contract? What about being sued for violation of said contract? What about the fact that paysites sell content that break the game and get people pissed off at the makers of the game, thereby causing them to lose prestige and customers? And, yes, it's a binding fucking agreement or why the fuck else would EA have legal reps in all of the goddamn countries the motherfucking game is published in? Ack! Again, if I mistook your meaning, sorry, but I'm in pain and typing this to ask those questions fucking hurt. I'm going to go find something to dull the grinding feeling coming from the bones now...

[Yaardarm Monkey]

A lot of us women react more strongly to emotional or moral issues than to legal, factual ones.

I mean, how about assembling a list of paysite scams? The Hern Project

 :roll:   oh that scam   :roll:

some "child" (and he was actually a 19 yr old) of this woman goes to the hospital and this 'project' rolls out to pay the bills......even though the person was covered by Ontario health insurance so there wasnt any bills and then the mom claims the kid has a gaping hole in his skull....and she took him and a bunch of his friends out for pizza...yeah, like a hospital would release someone with an open hole in their skull to go out for pizza...

and there was a hell of a lot more that didnt 'feel right'; too many unanswered questions....I believe she took in a couple of grand   :x


as to the "response of emotion rather than reason"?  yup, that too: far too many people (mostly women and/or mothers) simply overlooked all the warning flags and sent in their dough because it 'touched them'

here's just one example out of many how some people didnt look carefully, didnt read any critical questioning of this scam and just gushed out their tears...and opened their purses for this scamola...notice she has  kids of her own, has only started to work, and is so caught up in this emotional scam...but then again, it seems a lot of others did too:


I haven't had the guts to read your diary...just from what I have garnered from reading this thread, I can understand that you have been having a very hard time.

Having 5 children of my own, I know how hard it is when something happens to one of them...I can't bring myself to learn more of the details....I'm already in tears from what I read as it is.

You are in my prayers...and as SOON as the government paperwork goes through and I get my first salary (I'm a working Mommy, now) you'll be getting a donation from me.

[Duckie]

:shock: That's new to me. Linky?

[Moune]

Paden, no I just meant that laws on copyright and intellectual property are superior to the EULA. And those laws may be on the (paysite) creator's side, overruling the EULA. Contracts aren't that high in the legal hierarchy. It all depends whether the package file format is covered by intellectual property, and personally, I've heard conflicting - but all credible - opinions of that.

And then I just wanted to say that one should be careful about how much weight one puts into EA's interpretation of their own contracts. In a court case that interpretation would only one side of the case, and the court might choose to disregard it.

I found an old dusty bottle of rum in the basement. Wanna share it? It might do something good for that broken hand of yours.

ETA:
Hand, goddammit, not arm. That rum is getting to me already. Paden, please take some of it, otherwise it'll all go badly wrong for me.

Evilredduckie: The Hern Project was a Sims 1 thing. It was for the son of Libbie (or something similar) who was co-owner of Flotsim and Jetsim and the above description is pretty much what I know happened.

[Yaardarm Monkey]

:shock: That's new to me. Linky?

it was one of (many)  thread posts from N99 that...dont exist anymore (gee, wonder why)   :wink:

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The post you selected no longer exists. It may have been recently deleted.



I guess after the questions got too much and the twisting lies and stories began to contradict themseleves the mods deleted the whole Hern mess.

This was back in Jan-Mar of 2004.

[Ensign EO]

Why does it seem like people just keep going on about how horrible PMBD is?  What, does PMBD have to be the only site that does anything about anything?

No one is twisting anyone's arm to be a part of PMBD--no one is stopping anyone from starting a "nicer" way of dealing with things and hashing out morals, which is pretty much the only thing left to argue after HP's letter.

[missangelica]

If it came down to suing, it wouldn't be over the EULA.  It would be copyright.

[Yaardarm Monkey]

http://forums.thesimsresource.com/showthread.php?t=232819&highlight=Hern

the dirt on Project Hern
(the other threads were deleted, but you can get the idea of what was wrong)



http://forums.thesimsresource.com/showthread.php?t=229546&highlight=Project+Hern

it gets announced as updates and, well...



 :roll:

[Moune]

Why does it seem like people just keep going on about how horrible PMBD is?  

Because sometimes, some of you people are pretty horrible. Sorry, but that's what it looks like to an outsider like me.

No one is twisting anyone's arm to be a part of PMBD--no one is stopping anyone from starting a "nicer" way of dealing with things and hashing out morals, which is pretty much the only thing left to argue after HP's letter.

I'm just trying to do that. But with ... what ... five or six posts mostly disagreeing with the general consensus here, I just don't carry very much weight, do I.  :wink:

About the Hern Project. I donated to that and still have all the files in my Sims 1 game, so it wouldn't be hard to find out what creators contibuted to it. Imagine asking them what they think about the whole endeavour today. I'm sure I could also dig out the Paypal receipts. As could a lot of other people. Make some totals. The same thing could be done for a lot of other similar cases. That could make fun reading, I think.  :lol:

[RedLove]

Why does it seem like people just keep going on about how horrible PMBD is?  What, does PMBD have to be the only site that does anything about anything?

No one is twisting anyone's arm to be a part of PMBD--no one is stopping anyone from starting a "nicer" way of dealing with things and hashing out morals, which is pretty much the only thing left to argue after HP's letter.

I think we need to have a person at the door that says:

We understand that the Pirates of PMBD may be rude, obnoxious, unfeeling, and sometimes drunk. If you think this will cause you extreme distress or butthurt we advise you to go to a much nicer site such as SimsFileVault.

[missangelica]

Why does it seem like people just keep going on about how horrible PMBD is?  

Because sometimes, some of you people are pretty horrible. Sorry, but that's what it looks like to an outsider like me.

I don't buy that for a second.  If it was truly as horrible as you think then you wouldn't even come here--let alone post.  I'd say we've been pretty cordial with you but we do have our limits and if you keep pushing then you will be pushed back.

As for the Project Hern scandal, somehow I missed that.  People are always looking for an easy buck, aren't they?

[JFederated]

Now I can’t find the post, but somebody said they didn’t understand the whole control thing. I’ll try to explain. Personally I put a very liberal policy on my creations. They are free, recolorable, clonable, shareable, uploadable, redistributable, whatever-able, as long as I get credit for making them and they aren’t used for pay or donation purposes. I would be very angry and rather disappointed if one of them one day ended up on a paysite - or on a freesite, but with someone else’s name underneath it. Meaning somewhere I didn't want it to go or in a way that I didn't want it to be there in. Is that difficult to understand?

If you benefit from what I create, is it really too much to ask that you respect what I ask you not to do to my creations?

That’s what the control thing is about.
 

That was my post, Peachfish, and you answered it yourself:  "Yes, that’s what I’m saying. There is no way to control what happens to your stuff on the internet."

The point of my post wasn't that creator control wasn't important, but that it is, in the end and unfortunately, a pretty futile enterprise, for one, and that's followed up with the fact that all the stuff in the Booty IS credited to the creator and includes text links to the creator's site.  Another point I was making was that if paysite creators don't honor the game manufacturer's EULA, why would they then expect their TOUs to be honored?

What I hadn't, and perhaps should have, said was that I do respect creators very much and will personally gladly credit them and have done so extensively (and that was just for stories I put up on the exchange!) - it's never occurred to me to do otherwise.  I didn't make it and I won't take credit for it, I will give credit where it's due with my gratitude.  Lots of folks will do that as well.  But there will always be at least one who won't out of apathy, malice, or ignorance, and, in the big scheme of things, it makes me wonder why some creators waste so much energy on worrying about it when once it's up and out there it really is out of their hands.  It's just how it is.

They may not like that their stuff is in the Booty, but at least it's properly credited.  Live with it like that and continue to charge, or stop charging and they come down.  Those with stuff in the Booty already got paid for it, which violated the EULA, which negates their TOUs.  It's perhaps harsh for creative sensibilities (I have them too, you know, I can empathize), but too many paysites haven't played fair with this community and that needs to be exposed.  The Booty is an equalizer.

*edited for verb agreement and pronoun replacement.

[AW]

Why does it seem like people just keep going on about how horrible PMBD is?  

Because sometimes, some of you people are pretty horrible. Sorry, but that's what it looks like to an outsider like me.

I don't buy that for a second.  If it was as truly horrible as you think then you wouldn't even come here--let alone post.  I'd say we've been pretty cordial with you but we do have our limits and if you keep pushing then you will be pushed back.

You know Peachfish, I don't go off on too many people, but nobody fucking asked your opinion I think it was a question that was relative to the discussion regarding NS.  If you want shits and giggles, there are plenty of other places to go.  IF you want to insult us  - call us out for the horrible, dispicable people that you say we are....charge on.  But be prepared, this is Pes' site and it's not a secret how big of an ass he is so I don't know what all the shock and awe is about.  But, I will tell you this, at least you will get the truth here.  Nobody who is an active member backs down or backs off of touchy subjects - me included.  You can present your argument with merit and it will be considered, if you troll us we are going to come out bearing swords and swinging.  So - what about that don't you understand?  We don't "lure" innocents here or try to steal from you.  Everything in the booty has been bought and paid for...would you like to see a credit card receipt?  Hmmmm?  When it was all nicey nice about "Come on, be a free site pretty please, Paden will bake you some cookies"  Doors slammed, bans and middle fingers rose.  So, here we are.  

Damnit Paden take some pills and get out here...