For NeptuneSuzy

[missangelica]

Oh, but it teaches poor morals to children.

Never mind parental responsibility, PMBD causes children to go bad and make them thieves and drink baby blood.

I just read your post and saw this at approximately the same time and I thought they fit.  Plus I just like it.

[JFederated]

I don't get the control thing.  Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but if I download something from a paysite or I download the same thing from the Booty, what is the difference other than the money?  Everything in the Booty is credited to the creator.  Nothing is being resold.  Links to the site are included, and TOUs (I believe, not sure), which mean nothing if the EULA means nothing.  If the EULA doesn't protect EA, why would it somehow protect paysites?

If the creators of SimPE and CEP stated in their TOUs that it was forbidden for anything made with their 'tools and materials' to be sold in any way, would paysite owners have respected that?

This clinging to what amounts to, in intarwebz time, an antiquated notion of sites taking donations for bandwidth costs ( :roll: ) needs to lie down and die; that was years ago, when Maxis ran things and hosting costs weren't nearly as competitive as they are today.  Paysites are businesses anymore, plain and simple, and as such need to be held accountable for the quality of their merchandise and the treatment of their customers.  I'd love to see the tax forms that TSR owners fill out, if they even do.

As far as being listed on the official site - that list is old:  lots of links are dead and TSR was doing the free rotation thing when they were added, if memory serves.

There are too many paysites, ripping off people at will with shoddy product or bannings without 'evidence' or subscription refunds, with no supervision or authority to which they can be held accountable, and people are sick of it.  That's why people rush the Booty - there is no risk except having to delete something.

It's not about evil, it's not about rights, it's about fair play within a supposed community.

[Ensign EO]

Links to the site are included, and TOUs (I believe, not sure), which mean nothing if the EULA means nothing.

I've gotten Peggy and Rose's ToUs from the sets I downloaded, so if it's not available for all, then at the very least it's available for some.

[AW]

I don't get the control thing.  Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but if I download something from a paysite or I download the same thing from the Booty, what is the difference other than the money?  Everything in the Booty is credited to the creator.  Nothing is being resold.  Links to the site are included, and TOUs (I believe, not sure), which mean nothing if the EULA means nothing.  If the EULA doesn't protect EA, why would it somehow protect paysites?

If the creators of SimPE and CEP stated in their TOUs that it was forbidden for anything made with their 'tools and materials' to be sold in any way, would paysite owners have respected that?

This clinging to what amounts to, in intarwebz time, an antiquated notion of sites taking donations for bandwidth costs ( :roll: ) needs to lie down and die; that was years ago, when Maxis ran things and hosting costs weren't nearly as competitive as they are today.  Paysites are businesses anymore, plain and simple, and as such need to be held accountable for the quality of their merchandise and the treatment of their customers.  I'd love to see the tax forms that TSR owners fill out, if they even do.

As far as being listed on the official site - that list is old:  lots of links are dead and TSR was doing the free rotation thing when they were added, if memory serves.

There are too many paysites, ripping off people at will with shoddy product or bannings without 'evidence' or subscription refunds, with no supervision or authority to which they can be held accountable, and people are sick of it.  That's why people rush the Booty - there is no risk except having to delete something.

It's not about evil, it's not about rights, it's about fair play within a supposed community.

I feel the same way.  As I have said - the booty is off-site file storage.  I am not redistributing it for a profit, I am not saying it is mine, I am just making it internationally accessible should I need it.   :wink:

Personally, I don't care how much TSR pays its artists.  It will never be close to how much Thomas keeps anyway.  If someone were to ask me what my salary was, I would say it was none of your business.  

But, pass the popcorn and hand out the rum...I'll just wait and see what happens next...

[Pescado]

1. The legality of this issue isn’t that clear-cut. Go back and read Pescado’s last post and you should see the shades of grey.

The legality of the issue may be "clear cut", but ultimately, "not illegal" functionally amounts to "legal", given that the system ultimately force-maps onto black and white.

2. Because – like I said – let us at least have a minimum measure of control of what happens to our creations. I am very well aware that once you put something on the internet you can not retain 100 percent control of where it goes.

As a matter of physical practicality, this is ultimately infeasible. Million, if not billions, have been invested in just such an endeavor. All of these efforts have proven to be entirely fruitless. Resistance is futile. The only winning move is not to play.

But at least don’t stick it in our face so blatantly that you don’t give a damn about our wishes. And that goes for TSR too.

The truth is, nobody ever really has. People only care about such things as long as they are convenient, and when they become overly inconvenient, they are tossed aside. People are ultimately more willing to accomodate their friends than to slavishly adhere to the nebulous terms of a faceless individual on the Internets that have no legal backing anyway.

NeptuneSuzy, it would help if you would just come out with a number. I don’t understand your answer to that particular question either. Some FA’s don’t get paid, I understand that, but does that mean you don’t get paid either?  :?

For various reasons, such activities are often seen as "dirty", making those engaging in them unwilling to mention any details. Certainly people don't seem to take PRIDE in how much they've managed to rip off TSR for their ultimately useless junk! I mean, heck, if TSR wante to pay ME for my crap, I'd be like "Sure, whatever.", and certainly wouldn't keep it a secret. I like money. I'm a career mercenary. I understand completely.

For the third time: The EULA is not law. It is a condition or a terms of use, I think you'd call it in English. National laws - like laws on copyright and intellectual property - may most likely overrule that. I don't believe any of us can really say how those things interact. So the EULA argument doesn't really carry that much weight, IMO. See Pescado's last post. It just isn't a strong argument, which is all I'm trying to say.  

Actually, what isn't CLEARLY written out anywhere is that EA happens to also own the .package format. The GIF wars have demonstrated in the past that this likely holds a lot more weight than the EULA anyway. However, since EA cannot sensibly repudiate its own EULA, any usage explicitly permitted in EULA must therefore be valid. Regardless of whether a license for the .package format permits the selling of content, it ALSO thus permits free distribution of said content.

Oh, and EA/Maxis have for a long time been acceptant and even supporting of paysites, so if you want to refer to what ‘EA says’ you’ll have to take that into count too. Which is definitely what any court would do.

This is quite true. Paysites thus continue to exist alongside pirates. The status quo is maintained until such time EA wishes to take the matter to court. Since the status quo appears to suit them just fine, this is unlikely to happen.

[Scurvy Wench]

*waves flag* Go Pescado!

[Jojoba]

As an FA at TSR, how much do you get paid?

That is a question that I would also love to hear the answer to.  If we get a completely honest answer, I will give Suzy my first born son. (He's 22, so I doubt she will take him.  :lol: )

CaptainJojoba and keirra... I actually answered that a couple of times on various boards, but people seemed to have missed it...   I pointed out that I'm not TSR's spokesperson, so I'm not going to get involved with discussions about their FA's. However, seeing as this has been posted all over PMBD for a long time now, I've been comfortable enough to say not all FA's get paid....   And Kierra,  Yikes! No please don't send me your first born!  *shivers :lol:

Heh.

Well thank you for responding to my question Sue..even if you did not actually answer it.  You said that you have answered that question elsewhere but people seemed to have missed: how about you give a link so I dont miss it? And no, I was not asking you as a TSR spokesperson, I was asking you as a TSR FA and as a decent person who I thought would actually honestly answer it and not dodge around it...

In all honesty, I have had enough of this whole paysite debate. Its about time we actually got some facts about it - like how much they make and so on. But that just isnt going to happen...which makes paysites look very guilty

[AwwBoo]

Pescado, I guess different things make different people tick. The EULA argument doesn’t do anything for me. The morality issue does, though.

See, I just can't understand how hosting the files here is wrong.  It's illegal for paysites to charge.  It's not illegal for fans to share their creations.  Maybe I see too much in black and white, but honestly I just can't see the shades of grey here.

1. The legality of this issue isn’t that clear-cut. Go back and read Pescado’s last post and you should see the shades of grey.

2. Because – like I said – let us at least have a minimum measure of control of what happens to our creations. I am very well aware that once you put something on the internet you can not retain 100 percent control of where it goes. But at least don’t stick it in our face so blatantly that you don’t give a damn about our wishes. And that goes for TSR too.

1. EA has responded to this argument.  You need to see Nouk's site and her conversation with them.  You can no longer deny that they are against paysites.  It is stated in black and white.  They have said it's illegal.  Let us remember they are the creators of Sims 2 and without them none of this would exist at all.  They have the ultimate decision over what people can and can't do with this game.

2.  Nobody here is really rubbing anyone's face in anything.  The files are nice and neat and organized in the booty.  Credit is given to every single creator along with a link to their site.  I wish all sites were this well organized.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I personally am not here to disrespect anyone.  I don't see a lot of that going on, to be honest.  I do not hate paysite owners.  I'm here because I recently discovered this argument, read both sides, read EA's response, and am now taking a rather small stand against paysites.  I will also continue to help myself to the booty as these items should be free in the first place, and I will do so 110% guilt free.  If that offends paysite owners, too bad.

[dietofworms]

Edited to say:

I had a long post about legality here, but it's not relevant.  Sorry.

[Paden]

Ok, listen the fuck up and shut the hell up while I'm talking.
One: when you clicked on the goddamn button to install the motherfucking game onto your piece of electronic shit, you agreed to a fucking contract to abide by the EULA. CONTRACT, children! Big legal world word. Learn what it means, I don't have time to tutor you on it.
Two: if you're an ignorant asshole that can't figure it out and need a short explanation, that means you can't profit from the shit they put into their game.


Hello! Wake the hell up and pull your head out of your ass! Figure it out that you are bound to abide by that contract! Don't want to? Uninstall the game, fuckweed! Jesus H. Christ! As explained by the esteemed Nouk, most of the content put into the package to go into our games already belongs to EA as it is! Creators rely on the coding found in the package files to get their design into the game. No coding, no entry. Simple as that. IF you can write code of your own that will enable the content to show up and IF it doesn't rely on what EA has put out, then you can call all of those lovely little pixel creations totally your own. I've seen a lot of work that is outstanding and have said so. I've seen a lot of work that is substandard shit and have said so. But I've never said that the content created stands alone and is capable of functioning without the code provided by the makers of the GAME. Get a grip! It's a fucking game, meant for enjoyment. People are trying to profit off of someone else's coding, knowledge, and effort. Yes, they put effort of their own into making the content. But for fuck's sake, get the point and realize that selling it is wrong! You agreed to a contract when you installed that fucking game onto your computer. By making a profit off of the content you have married to the package file format, you have broken the fucking contract. Fess up and get the hell over it, go your merry way and steal from your fellow gamers no more! I appreciate the custom content that makers put out, I really do. But I'm not about to thank them out of my goddamn pocket! If I did, I'd be just as guilty as they are. I'll get stuff packs and all that shit, because the company is the only one entitled to make a profit from the pixels. They hold the copyright. That's the thing, peoples. If you don't own the motherfucking copyright, you have no right to demand money for what is in those files. If you don't work for the company, you're fucked when it comes to getting money for what you're designing. Plus, you accepted the terms of the contract. Either way, you're fucked without even a kiss. You want money for what you do? Appy at EA for a job. Hell, you couldn't do worse than some of the folks already making content for our games. And maybe, just maybe, if you get on, you can put out content that we'll recognize and cheer to see... Damn, I need a fucking beer after all of that. It's as clear as the nose on Thomass's face that selling content is wrong. Would you sell a car that had been made with stolen parts and claim them as your own? Well, if you're selling custom content you're pretty much doing the same fucking thing. You can't get it into the game without the code invented by the eggheads at EA, it won't work without it. Gotta have the one to make the other work. It's kind of like selling your diary with work by someone else pasted in there to make it more interesting. Can't do it, kids. Now excuse me while I get off of my fucking soapbox and go have a goddamn smoke because this is bullshit. The paysites are fucking wrong for my reasons explained above and many more as yet unstated. Get a fucking clue...

[leilatigress]

Suzy you are brave to come and give your opinion here because while we do have some nice articulate people we also have some rude abrasive jackasses as well.  I for one don't particularly care what you make from TSR as I think of it as walking up to some random person on the street and asking them how much they make a year at whatever job they do.  Yes I realize some of you will or have done this but honestly if someone was to do such to me I would say it's none of your business how much I make.  Take or leave that question as you like.  If PMBD gave pay site creators a choice on if they're files were hosted here then many would say no I don't want you to host my stuff take it down.  Maxis should have been clearer on they're EULA when they stated products are not for commercial use.  Then again that is clear as day and you can translate it anyway you like and it still says the same damn thing.  Pay sites are wrong for charging money for it and any pay site that says "donation" and then gives a free gift is even more despicable.  I donate to several charities and several free sites and aside from a thank you note and maybe a tax break I get nothing.  In the Unites States it is ILLEGAL to ask for a donation without a valid Business ID and Tax number.  I was recently audited by the IRS and was told those Sims2 sites that I had "donated to" were not eligible for tax write-off since they were not LEGAL Businesses.  I now require a tax id number to be put on the receipt when I donate to ANY site.  By the way that did include Rose and Peggy and they are not listed as legal businesses in ANY country.  So what TSR, Rose, Peggy, and the rest of the folks listed on the booty are doing is Illegal in the U.S and since I live in the U.S and Electronics Arts runs its Sims2 servers in the US then you have to abide by US law and they are not and that is what matters to me.  

Oh, and EA/Maxis have for a long time been acceptant and even supporting of pay sites, so if you want to refer to what ‘EA says’ you’ll have to take that into count too. Which is definitely what any court would do. /quote]

Ok you have got to get this straight if you are going to be a pirate on this site.  MAXIS didn't give a rat's ass about pay sites; MAXIS invited TSR to conventions and gave Thomas sneak peeks.  Electronic Arts (EA) does give a rat's ass about pay sites and are the people that answered Nouk, not once but 2 times about the pay sites.  EA did not invite TSR to anything and have not given TSR sneak peeks into anything.  There are no EA/Maxis it is only EA who owns Maxis now and what EA says goes.

[dietofworms]

Um...you're not addressing me, are you, Paden?

I'm having a little continuity problem here.

[leilatigress]

I think Paden meant it for everyone DW(I'm not sure what to call you diet and worms is just not seeming right.)  that thinks pay sites are legal.  

To Paden: Gods I adore your fire!  Wish I knew you in real we'd either get along famously or hate each other either way it would be entertaining.

[Frank]

Ok, listen the fuck up and shut the hell up while I'm talking.
One: when you clicked on the goddamn button to install the motherfucking game onto your piece of electronic shit, you agreed to a fucking contract to abide by the EULA. CONTRACT, children! Big legal world word. Learn what it means, I don't have time to tutor you on it.
Two: if you're an ignorant asshole that can't figure it out and need a short explanation, that means you can't profit from the shit they put into their game.


Hello! Wake the hell up and pull your head out of your ass! Figure it out that you are bound to abide by that contract! Don't want to? Uninstall the game, fuckweed! Jesus H. Christ! As explained by the esteemed Nouk, most of the content put into the package to go into our games already belongs to EA as it is! Creators rely on the coding found in the package files to get their design into the game. No coding, no entry. Simple as that. IF you can write code of your own that will enable the content to show up and IF it doesn't rely on what EA has put out, then you can call all of those lovely little pixel creations totally your own. I've seen a lot of work that is outstanding and have said so. I've seen a lot of work that is substandard shit and have said so. But I've never said that the content created stands alone and is capable of functioning without the code provided by the makers of the GAME. Get a grip! It's a fucking game, meant for enjoyment. People are trying to profit off of someone else's coding, knowledge, and effort. Yes, they put effort of their own into making the content. But for fuck's sake, get the point and realize that selling it is wrong! You agreed to a contract when you installed that fucking game onto your computer. By making a profit off of the content you have married to the package file format, you have broken the fucking contract. Fess up and get the hell over it, go your merry way and steal from your fellow gamers no more! I appreciate the custom content that makers put out, I really do. But I'm not about to thank them out of my goddamn pocket! If I did, I'd be just as guilty as they are. I'll get stuff packs and all that shit, because the company is the only one entitled to make a profit from the pixels. They hold the copyright. That's the thing, peoples. If you don't own the motherfucking copyright, you have no right to demand money for what is in those files. If you don't work for the company, you're fucked when it comes to getting money for what you're designing. Plus, you accepted the terms of the contract. Either way, you're fucked without even a kiss. You want money for what you do? Appy at EA for a job. Hell, you couldn't do worse than some of the folks already making content for our games. And maybe, just maybe, if you get on, you can put out content that we'll recognize and cheer to see... Damn, I need a fucking beer after all of that. It's as clear as the nose on Thomass's face that selling content is wrong. Would you sell a car that had been made with stolen parts and claim them as your own? Well, if you're selling custom content you're pretty much doing the same fucking thing. You can't get it into the game without the code invented by the eggheads at EA, it won't work without it. Gotta have the one to make the other work. It's kind of like selling your diary with work by someone else pasted in there to make it more interesting. Can't do it, kids. Now excuse me while I get off of my fucking soapbox and go have a goddamn smoke because this is bullshit. The paysites are fucking wrong for my reasons explained above and many more as yet unstated. Get a fucking clue...

Well said Paden........

Arr......Shiskabob the paysites............

*someone want to get a valium for paden? Think he's on the verge of a stroke after typing that*

[Paden]

Um, Bionix, I'm female... and I don't want the valium, it's just that after constantly explaining where we are coming from, and being nice and reasonable to start with then being ignored, I kind of lost my cool. I've got fire when I know people are doing things that aren't legal and refuse to see past their own damn noses. I will say it again: to get your content into the game, you must marry it to the code written and provided by EA, which makes up a good three-fourths of the bulk of said file. Without it, you just have a nice collection of pixels that you can admire but not use in any practicle way, unless you revamp it for some other game or program. That said, you are using EA's materials and must, MUST, abide by the contract you entered into when you installed that game on your computer. Don't like it or want to accept that contract? Easy, delete the damn game and exit the Sims 2 fascination. Simple as that.

ETA: I hate fucking typos!! And I put the wrong fraction in.... Sorry Nouk, I almost fuggered up the info that you so thoughtfully supplied to us!