Echo's interpretation of the EULA

[Pescado]

(Sorry for being too lazy to go to another thread about the following silly comments.)  I'm also seeing some tunnel vision--when I logged onto dA to clear out my messages, there was a message concerning their TOS.

Ah, but see, DeviantArt works differently. DeviantArt DOESN'T claim to own anything. EAxis, on the other hand, claims all your CC are belong to them.

[Quinctia]

The S2C discussion is really pissing me the fuck off, because I've patiently explained copyright law and intention, what the redistribution allowances in the EULA mean, and everyone actually ignored my last couple of posts to bicker with one another.

But to say that you want debate, but no one can convince you, is utterly laughable, Echo.  Nothing you said actually has much of anything to do with the real issue of file redistribution and the EULA, when you're talking about content for the sims.

There actually is no valid, supported position on the opposite end of the EULA argument at this point.  One can argue that it's impolite to share other creators' custom sims content, but it is most definitely something you agreed to when you installed and ran EA's software on your computer--that items in their file format and created with and for their software are EA's property and may be redistributed freely.

You may not agree with it, and you may believe that you retain all rights to your works, even in others' formats with their IP contained within, but the proper vehicle is to test the idea legally, not whining against those who are following the licensing agreement given to them in the first place.  You've got to throw out the EULA before you can say jack shit and have any sort of winning argument.

People can and do waive the right to their creative works all the time.  Those who've been deceived into thinking poetry.com is a valid operation do consistently, the poor deluded SOBs.  If you submit works to any sort of contest, you're giving the contest operators the right to reuse those works as they see fit, 99% of the time.  By creating a file using the EA format, you give up the right to control the redistribution of the content in that format.

Now, you're not waiving your ultimate copyright over whatever original material you added, which in many cases, is very little.  But if you hand created a texture for a Sims item, nothing is stopping you from using it in other things...whether it be 3D modeling projects or selling a print of a digital painting you turned into a sims painting...nothing's stopping you from selling a mesh you made on turbosquid.  You just gave up the right to be an anal-retentive control freak over .package files by making .package files.

Apple controls .aac files, it was a way to try and keep down "piracy."  This isn't a new or foreign concept to anyone who knows anything about DRM shit.  File formats can be controlled--this generally surfaces as protected media files, but there are even rules to putting something on a shiny disc you made to officially dub it a CD!  When Sony put garbage "protection" on some audio CDs that quietly installed drivers on your computer that made it impossible to listen to your CD media on your computer, they were no longer allowed to actually say that the shiny disc was a CD.

So if you want to mess with .package files, do what EA says or fucking sue them, but stop whining.

[Ensign EO]

JM: Yeah, I know they're different--my point, hidden among all the other crap, was about tunnel vision.

The discussion on S2C confuses me.  It keeps shifting to other topics, like filesharing at large and "DO U CAER ABOUT OTHER CREATORS AT ALLL???!!!  EA?  Oh, they aren't fellow creators, you know.  Not peers at all."

And the whole "it's not your place to intervene" isn't making much sense to me.  I guess if I saw someone was in danger and I was able to help, I should just step aside and not butt in, because, y'know, I'm not a cop or a fire-fighter, so I don't have any right to help those I am able to help.  I still wonder why the people who say people shouldn't do anything about the paysite issue participate at all or why the people who say others should be nice seem to be the rudest ones of all...

[Apsalar]

The Echoloian interpretation of the EULA is not really relevant to the matter: It does not matter whether paysites are "right" or "wrong". What MATTERS is that the EULA states that *WE* may include materials created with said tools and materials on our website regardless of whether the site creating it is "pay" or "free", as copyright to the game content is held by EA, and we are simply following through with our option to "include materials created with the Tools & Materials on your personal noncommercial website". Therefore, it is irrelevant whether paysites are "right" or "wrong". Anyone may redistribute ANY such content on their personal website, and the redistribution policies imposed by content creators have absolutely no force whatsoever. The only reason we don't distribute free content is because we choose not to. Technically, if I wanted to create a flat out repository-of-everything, I could. But that's been done already: It's called THE EXCHANGE.

Cheese? Babies? I can give you both.

Why can't I ever put in such an eloquent wording? I try to tell people: all we wanna do is plunder teh B00tey! Or not pludner it, but being able to. Arr!

[AW]

When it states in the EULA about the tools and materials....does this include SimPE, which was not created by EA or Maxis?  If someone creates a mesh using SimPE is it still covered by the EULA?  I am not trying to have rotten fruit thrown at me, and this may have been addressed.  Anyway.....who's got the rum???

[Broomhilda]

When it states in the EULA about the tools and materials....does this include SimPE, which was not created by EA or Maxis?  If someone creates a mesh using SimPE is it still covered by the EULA?  I am not trying to have rotten fruit thrown at me, and this may have been addressed.  Anyway.....who's got the rum???

Materials are the .package files. So anything that ends up being a .package file is covered no matter what you do to it, even if you use a different tool.

[AW]

When it states in the EULA about the tools and materials....does this include SimPE, which was not created by EA or Maxis?  If someone creates a mesh using SimPE is it still covered by the EULA?  I am not trying to have rotten fruit thrown at me, and this may have been addressed.  Anyway.....who's got the rum???

Materials are the .package files. So anything that ends up being a .package file is covered no matter what you do to it, even if you use a different tool.

Thank you for your response.  I am not a creator, I just play....and download   .  I asked a customer of mine who is an attorney in Washington DC and works with patents and registration of trademarks (he also is a consultant for the Trade Commission for legal purposes)about this.  His response was, and I am quoting to the best of my memory, that if you worked for a company that had a software that was patented and registered and was the source of income because of the "branding" and you did "side" work using their software resulting in a profit without their consent that it is a violation and is illegal and all profit made from such would belong to the patent/registered trademark owner.  Is that essentially what the EULA is stating?  Since this has been an ongoing issue, I am just trying to fully understand.

[Marhis]

Pretty much, yes.

Consider also that EA expressely demands that whoever has a Sims fan site will put the "Game contents and materials © EA. All rights reserved".
And also adds that you have to put it on every page which contains any game content made by you.

I heavily doubt that, in legal terms, not putting that statement on your site makes you "tee-hee pffffft now the copyright is mine".

In a nutshell, the whole issue might maybe be condensed in: what part of ALL RIGHTS RESERVED you didn't understand?
 

[AW]

In a nutshell, the whole issue might maybe be condensed in: what part of ALL RIGHTS RESERVED you didn't understand?

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be stupid or dense.  Thank you for your response.

[Bigtruckgirl]

In a nutshell, the whole issue might maybe be condensed in: what part of ALL RIGHTS RESERVED you didn't understand?

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be stupid or dense.  Thank you for your response.

I think Marhis (and please our wonderful Pirate Nun correct me if I am wrong) was just stating that in general, not to you. That is what it says in most copy write text and the "you" was a generalization, not "you" as in you... I think (and I also think I have confused myself in this process. LOL)

[Marhis]

Wooops! Absolutely yes, what Bigtruckgirl said  .

I was addressing that "you" to alleged copyright whiners, not you-you (I definitely need to choose better my smilies).

[AW]

Wooops! Absolutely yes, what Bigtruckgirl said  .

I was addressing that "you" to alleged copyright whiners, not you-you (I definitely need to choose better my smilies).

No worries Marhis....I just figured you had your habit in a twist.  But, it's cool.  Thanks for setting it straight though.  I appreciate it.  

[Silver Arrows]

Hello Echo. I respect you very much as a creator, but you say yourself, you are not a lawyer.

In other words, if your argument can be summed up as "it's this way because I said so

But this is exactly what you are doing yourself. EA has made their position very clear. Once your stuff goes into a .package file, EA owns the copyright, and the community can distribute it as they will, whether is pay or free. No matter if even 99% of the stuff in there you made from scratch, that 1% of code needed to make it run in TS2 makes it EAs.

Why do you seem to think your interpretation holds more weight than EA's own?

Response (GM Fenris) 05/18/2007 03:47 PM
Hello again xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,

I can certainly understand your frustration over this issue, as it probably is not always clear whether EA is interested in pursuing these sorts of cases. However, I can assure you that, legally, Electronic Arts owns the rights to all material created from our engine, and that the sharing of said material for free on community sites is completely legal, even if it is material that some players are attempting to sell. If you would like to submit a list of these pay sites, I will be more than happy to pass it on to the EA Legal team to review.

Take care,

EA Rep Fenris
Player Relations
Electronic Arts

Instead of giving your own version of what the EULA means, why not just ask EA for a 'human-readable' version? I'm sure that will clarify things much better for you. All the best.

[Vrai]

This entire topic seems to be such a slippery slope.  It's back and forth, back and forth.  Just this constant tug of war over legal vs illegal.  From what I've seen on all the discussion pages (across the wonderous & multiple forums) the pro-pay seem to be sticking to their guns and providing a response to support their tattered logic --no matter how juvenile it may seem.  It doesn't look like we're going to be able to convince them anytime soon.  

What really struck me? While the pro-pay are spewing their childish responses, more Simfans are being pulled into the trap and wasting their money.  While we may not be able to convince any of the owners of these websites, I think it's our duty to inform the public and let them make their own decision.  Taking both arguments into consideration, it seems to be a proper 'grey area' --neither proved 'nor disproved in a way that either party will both totally accept.  

My suggestion? Let's have the people make up their own mind.  Money talks.  So maybe we can't make the pro-pay turn their website towards 'free'.  But if more people know that the choice to not pay exists, they'll choose whichever they see fit.  (There are lots of items that people can get for free or cheap but choose to buy properly for a sense of luxury, establishment, goodwill.  If people actually want to donate, they will regardless.)

When the money runs dry, we'll see who create content for love of the game or love of the green.

[Forgot to add..]
Having said that, the whole point was 'ooh lookie, more publicity for PMBD'.  Seriously.  It took me months to find this place.  Google is my bitch --I looked HARD.  I knew that something like this had to exist, I just didn't quite know where to find it.  I'm sure that I wasn't alone in my search.  Other people MUST have the same idea, yeah?

<end transmission>

[SparklePlenty]

Not making a profit off of your business is not proof of not selling a product that you shouldn't be selling. All it is proof of is being a poor business person.

That point keeps bothering me... do you think that really all Paysite owners are legally registered as business-owners, at least in those places where it is required? Do they pay taxes? Do they do all the things a RL business owner has to do?

I would bet you money that Rose does not pay US sales taxes, and that all the 12 year-olds that gleefully start a pay site with no business licenses or tax ID numbers are NOT paying sales or income taxes in whatever country they are doing business in. They don't see it as business, but just "free money!" As a 12 year-old would.

There is no similar excuse for obvious business-oriented sites such as TSR (employees) and Rose. They know they are evading taxes. And the Russian Sims 2 pay sites are more than likely operating illegally in Russia, too, as part of the notorious piracy/bootleg/underground economy. They sure as hell ain't paying income taxes in Russia!