PMBD

Hello all

I have been here before but since then have been thinking little about all .
Although I am not too happy with some things that are said here , but that is matter of personal taste , I can understand better what is meaning of all .

Now I guess many of you know there is many talk about pay-sites and in a way the initiative of Pirateforum and SimsVault made it easier for many people to speak more honest in this pay-site matter .
So that is all good .

But I see also some kind of statusquo , so there are 2 oposit sites/sides with different aproach , the people that share payitems on internet so like Pirateforum and SimsVault , the people who download from you , in secret or out in the open .

And on other side/site is paysites  who are of course not too happy with this cause it will lower their income .

But maybe both sides so Pirateforum and SimsVault ánd paysites can come to some kind of agreement .

For me is this . I think there is room for both and I hope that you and paysites who is reading this will read with open mind and think about it a little .
It would be a good thing if all people , so also kids with no visacard and people on budget who can't afford to buy could be included in all downloads .
And it can but then both must do effort and be real in this .

If we allow paysites to make money ( even if you don't agree ) and leave the payobject be so not share for the first period of time and give room then for site to make money .
Then , after this period of time ( I was thinking of  half year , that can be discussed) this paysite put this payobject up for free download for all so all can enjoy and make recolors , and stuff like that . And if paysite agree he will put all paystuff that is older then 1 year already up for free download and in so giving message he agree and also start dating his new paystuff . For paysites that are reading this :
You make free use of tools and promotion in this community and this is a way to include all and give something back to community and you are still able to make money .

Paysites that agree know then that their stuff is safe for that period of time and all know that they can acces this download but only little later .
The paysite could date all paystuff so it easy to see for all when it will be up for free download .

Now for you safes maybe time also cause I think this take many time now , this forum . In this you can then focus on paysites that don't agree and share only from then , safes money too .
I know this not an ideal solution for both sides but it can work if both sides could take 1 step back .

To include all people is not what is in Real Life cause there many people are excluded from nicer things but in here , if we could come to such arangement that would be cool cause then all can enjoy .

Well maybe both sides can think about this a little , and paysites could vissit here and start to talk with people here .

I hope so , anyway .

Thank you for reading , Lizard

This is like asking God for world peace every night before you go to bed.

It's not going to happen. Hence why 'Paysites must be destroyed'.

yer cause that A gunna happen

I think you're missing the point that selling sims 2 files is not really allowed, just tolerated by some and not by others. This forum contains the 'others'... It's just another way of selling payfiles in the end.

Paysite owners would just argue that people wouldn't donate cause they'd rather wait the 6 mos to get it for free......

And Lizard, you're completely ignoring the whole reason that the files are hosted here in the first place (as was mentioned by Nouk): Sims 2 files aren't permitted to be sold at all under any circumstance. Breaking the law is still breaking the law, regardless if you try to "compromise" with people or not.

It's nice that you're at least trying to be civil this time around, but I'm afraid that there's really no middle ground in this issue that I can see.

If it was legal to sell such items you would have a very good arguement.  I would agree with you that such a compromise would be an excellent idea however it is not the case.  

Another arguement that is not confronted by your comment was the fact that after you purchase something, it's your choice what you do with that item because at that point it's yours.  You OWN said item.  A great example was when Chrysler designed the new 300M.  People started putting "ragtops" on their vehicles, much to the chagrin of the designers.  As much as they wanted to ban people from doing such things (and yes, they looked terrible imho), it wasn't their choice to force them not to.  Same thing applies here. If Blue and others want to share THEIR items, then it's their option to do so regardless of whether the creators agree with their choice or not.

I agree with replies above to your idea Lizard, but it's gonna be ugly no matter how we cut it.  As said by Denimjo, there's really no middle ground in this issue.

Well , I know the idea sounds little like Sound of Music tune and I am not missing your point , I just ad another view .

The way I see is this .
People who make stuff ánd want to make money with this,  are most of time more stimulated to make good stuff cause well , it has to be so atractive that people give money for this .
I think you can see logic in this , it is just like in Real Life .

So , if they could open up to this idea so still make some money , make use of free tools and promotion provided by the rest of community ( like it is already happening now) ánd after some time put up for free download then it will bennefit whole community .
Because people can make recolors of that , put up for download , so like that .
Paysites that are willing to do that can come in here and talk about this .

If you could open up to this idea or at least considder to open up , hehehe ( I am being careful here ) then both sides can maybe make step to eachother .

Because I see like this also . I can understand about this sharing but in long run it will discourage people to make cool stuff .
Not all paysites will go for this of course but like I said before then you can focus more on those sites and maybe whole community can help then to ignore updates from those sites .

Some updatesites are doing updates now for free sites only or give more atention so I guess this means , more people are now more in understanding all of this .

You can go the hard way , of course but then more and more sites will close or let themselves be bought .

I know is not ideal solution and both sides have to do 1 step back but I really think in long run it will bennefit more people then now.
Cause this would also mean that kids and people on low budget can have free acces to all downloads , only little later then the paying crowd .
Paysites keep motivated cause their products are more protected and this could safe all lot of money .

I think it can be done  

Julie Andrews :D

<long crazy rant>
Well, it would be nice if people didn't occasionally come to the point where they realize that they can get away with selling things they make to people for far more than they're worth, whether because they feel they need the money, or need to recoup on that $250+ in cash given to EA for the Sims games, or because the flashing blinking site of death they've made is now taking up too much space for Geocities.

The problem is, the idea of 'wait six months and it'll be free' has been tried by The Sims Resource. Their original business model promised that 3% of the site content would be free at any given time, and the free 3% would rotate on a weekly basis. So, in theory, in 34 weeks, you could get everything! Right?

Wrong. As many people have noted, the 'rotation' was erratic, poorly managed, and often would unlock items without required parts. Furthermore, the only thing this really caused was the "Bandwidth Bitchslap"; when a smart user DID get in, they'd immediately download EVERY object, regardless of quality, so that their investment wouldn't go to waste. Imagine a few dozen users downloading the entire site on the same day.

Actually, you don't have to imagine. Prior to TSR's declaration that they were making everything but their FA content free-access, they had a period where 100,000 items (or something like that) were free at the same time. The entire site bogged heavily. Why? I'd guess because people made mad runs to grab as much of this content as they could before the ivory tower doors slammed closed again.  I'm willing to bet that in the first week or two after their 'everything but the FA is free' announcement, another massive spike occurred as users rushed to grab it under the assumption that TSR's limited generosity wasn't likely to last long.

I think that as a general rule, this scheme HAS been tried. And failed. People won't make an object free while selling it is still incurring revenue, and some people won't pay for an object ever if they can get the same or a similar object for free.

As a side note, I think that if people have to make a business out of Simming, they should be receiving a fair share of the profits. I've never heard of a Sim site that went like this:

"Okay, we earned $555 from our subscribers, and $320 from our advertisements. Each of our creators gets a share of whatever money doesn't go towards keeping the site running."

Instead, it's shadow conspiracies, behind-the-scenes wrangling, and currying favor. And that shit just ain't kosher, and puts everyone off the concept. You show me a pay site that's actually worth more money than the next Sims expansion pack, though, and I'll show you a group of modders that should be applying for a job at EA instead of trying to bilk people into buying the modified game code they've come up with.

And then there's the argument that once a person realizes they can make money for selling ANYTHING, they stop putting effort into making good objects, and start focusing on quantity instead of quality, thus making paysites responsible for degradation of quality and lack of community improvement.

Honestly, I'd love nothing more than to explain the following to site creators: "People are going to prefer free objects. No, this doesn't mean that you can order people to click the ads. That's against most ad sites' terms of service. People expect quality in pay objects. This doesn't mean that you should charge more for a single object than a single object in a Stuff Pack costs, unless your object is truly Greater-Than-Maxis-Quality. If it breaks the game, you definitely can't make money from it. And just because Maxis sometimes releases broken content doesn't mean people are going to be just as content to pay for yours!" And so on.

Pay sites could work in theory. In practice, the Sims is one of the few games where people have actually gone out of their way to embrace the concept. Most people settle for donations, or if they can't make ends meet and can't afford to spend money on their hobby, they host at a free site or go find something better to do with their time. And with people quite used to being able to download custom content for their other games for free, sites like this will continue to proliferate to handle those who choose to sell game modifications.

</end long crazy rant>

I've got a suggestion.
How about your paysite making a goodwill gesture and offering their own old payfiles free, just to prove you mean it.

All money does is encourage quantity over quality, so I hope no one makes any money.  :P

(Breaking even is fine. :D)

Indeedy? Well, as far as I know, all cool stuff has been and still is totally free. SimPE? Free. CEP? Why, free. MATY's hacks? Free! Insim, Squinge's hacks? Free like a freest thing under the free blue sky!

...or perhaps by cool stuff you meant clothes, furniturses, houses? Then   looks like our logicses come from different galaxies, because I don't see anything cool about stuff, of which you can find free substitutes that are mostly of the same quality and quite often way better.


You don't have to capitalize real life, you know. Last time I checked it, it's not a game.

The reality is that paysites will find ways to worm out of their promises to the community, just as TSR did. They're not really interested in keeping this sort of thing out of the way, but rather keeping it quiet - that's how they co-opt Delphy and others into banning links to this site.

I agree about the indispensable things - the things people need being free - and they are indispensable because they are brilliant.  

Paysites would just find a way to say - oh no - these files are the real money spinners, and therefore will be locked behind the golden curtain. And if you proposed this to TSR, they would just say Oh - the kudos system - contribute to the evil and you can have one free day in 2009.

in addition to the legalities and the greed...

the game is primarily aimed at young people, just the player who generally doesn't have the wherewithall to pay for items they might like to have in their game. Equally there are people who plain cannot afford to pay for a subscription and even paying for a few single items soon mounts up.

why should these players be deprived of custom content? (quality aside)

and yes they could make their own but it requires some degree of talent, something not everyone possesses

:shock: arr

Ok , I read all .

I comment of few otherwise is all too long.
Yes there is indeedy also very good free products made for free in this community bút it seems that more and more ask money but make free use of all tools and free promotion .
Because they can and because this community allows it ...still .
And with this I mean , that maybe update/find sites could maybe think a little too if they still want to give all free promotion for sites that only take from this comunity .

The reason I write here is that more people will read then but I do hope that more people will join in here and speak their mind and not leave it all to a few people .
If you feel reluctant to speak up in here you could share your payproducts of sites you don't agree with, in here .

If you have a forum or a site you could also start to promote the Piratesforum or SimsVault simply by putting a link to these 2 forums in your find or update topic .

Ok , someone in here someone said as reply that paysites could freely share ALL their products that are older than 1 year to show goodwill to community and in so give something back and in so include more people .

Would this something you are willing to open up for ?

So to say it simple , what can a paysite do to get you off his back ?  :D
The fact will remain that people will go on to make Simsproducts for money , in spite of your well meant efforts , some sites close but then 2 others open to fill that gap and this will go on and on .

I am more of a practical guy so what could you see in practical what could bring both parties little more together .

And also , now that there is more openness in this all , what could the rest of the community do ?

And I answer one more , about the TSR2 , well that is very big site so in this I can't see any solution then what you are doing now but most are way more small , like Simsconnection and Reflex , I saw in your booty list so is there no way to talk with them and see if you come both to solution that will bennefit both parties , so give room for both ?

Because you can be stubborn and only go for one goal only but maybe there can be also something achieved , if you could open up for more possibility , if both parties could be little more flexible.

And maybe you could make some suggestions to payites in here that are practical so they can think this over and maybe they could come in here and talk further with you .

Is this not something to considder for both parties ?

Actually, S2C has a free finds section, and Parsimonious doesn't seem to include paystuffs anymore - or perhaps it is that paystuffs just aren't good enough.



Stop being one. Many sites, including all of Pescado's have shown that donation works.  Members paid $2100 for a new server, and some even donated before the server was sure, knowing that it would go to beer and some such for them.



This is the reason that they must be destroyed - and why they need all their money taken off them.  The evil just proliferates.



They don't care about benefitting anyone but themselves - they use community to bludgeon everyone to be a good little consumer.  They don't care about our benefit - that's what allows them to be money-grubbing bastards in the first place.

Seriously...what kind of planet are you from? Do friend and foe hug there eachother?

This discussion is way too useless. It's cute and all, "wanting peace" and all but I don't think you see the reason of this site.
Paysites must be destroyed. Battle without honor or humanity.

No matter how civil and nice your effort, I seriously can't see why this side of the issue (=us) should even consider taking one step back like you suggest we do. Sims paysites are illegal and a daily offence, why we should even remotely care about reaching any sort of agreement with them really is beyond me  :shock: . Paysites simply have to cease to exist, because when it is proven that there are lots of valid alternatives to having subscriptions, and these days there's also a lot of help available out there in the community as to how to successfully turn a paysite into a free site (just take Delphy of MTS2 - for God's sakes I never had a site but after reading just a few of his advices on how to turn a paysite into a 100% free site without losing money, even I would know how to do it if I decided to do it tomorrow!) you really have no excuse for still running a paysite. The point is, most paysites obviously refuse any advice because what they truly want is to make money, not cover bandwidth costs. So I honestly do not understand your point of view, because the idea of compromise should not come from this side of the issue.

The problem of paysites are many, but this is a classic example of what is wrong with paysites....and Carla Niven is another example  :roll:

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?t=443

It's the "brand new site with no bandwidth problems going pay right off the bat" syndrome.

It's about principle, Lizard.  And the fact is, charging for files and these spanking new paysites popping up like mushrooms, is the height of unprincipled behavior.  It's not about "community", it's about greed.  Plain & simple.

that's why JM made this site of sanity in the first place (http://fozzy42.com/SoundClips/Movies/Misc/network_mad_as_hell.wav)

the call of PMBD has gone unheeded (http://fozzy42.com/SoundClips/Movies/Misc/let_people_go1.wav)

why the paysite owners 'just dont get it' (http://fozzy42.com/SoundClips/Movies/EasyRider/easyrdr1.wav)

 :wink:

Methinks the paysite owners are starting to get a little desperate...

     :P

Isn't this like crack dealers trying to come to some sort of compromise with the courts???      :roll:

I think they are not all too happy with all talk but you have to keep in mind that people are bored fast and it will come and go in waves .

And to answer , of course many paysites are only out to make proffit , we can agree on that .

With one step back I don't mean you have to cave on or in , not sure about word, but is like this .
When you make painting and stay too close to canvas you sometimes loose sight of whole painting .

So back to the fact that many paysites is out for the money .
I think is safe to say that most are aware you are collecting and sharing "donation" and payfiles .
Most just cut their loss and with this I mean , they know of your sharing but still making goooooooooood money anyway .
Or they close but like I said , another will eagerly fill the gap .

For them it would be very nice to get you of their backs so they can make even more money .
Ok , now you can keep on doing this and I see the other parts of community warming up to this idea , so not only do they grab your sharefiles in anonymous way cause I think you are aware that many people are just out for the grab in same spirrit as people who have paysites . But they are also prepared to become involved a little more active and that is good thing .

What I mean is , if a paysite is willing to negociate , and you only have to wait if paysite come forward and is prepared to make some contribution to this community , it can be by giving a donation to MTS2 or give more files for free , is this not something to considder ?

The motivation of the paysite would be : if I give an x amount to MTS2 and in so get rid of Pirateforum , that would make my proffit xxx more .
Ok , but then on the other hand MTS2 , who could need some donations,  would have some more cash to continue.

This could bennefit whole community and both parties can bennefit .
Paysites use bút also suport free inittatives .
Free initiatives can continue and keep community creative .

If maybe paysites know you could maybe considder alternative , well maybe they grab calculator and are doing their math .

Well , this is all I can really say , otherwise I am in repeating myself .
I am 45 years old and for in life I learned that there are sometimes more then one aproach , and is sometimes different then what I had in mind .
I do apreciate your inititative and I am not only one , maybe is also good to know for you .
But I have small forum , if it was even smaller it would implode so there is only so much I can do .
I don't think my idea's are bad idea's and I don't see it as matter of right or wrong , we can both have different opinions on this .
Maybe you can considder but I leave up to you .

It was nice to talk in better way as we have done in past , so good luck with all .

Friendly greet , Lizard / Nikos

Y'know... free initiatives -already- continue to keep the community creative - it's the paysites trying to bribe and buy out people that's causing the biggest problems. I think you're either missing the point entirely, or deliberately fishing here.

Seriously. If you're trying to convince paysites to improve their policies, preaching to the people who think they deserve to be disemboweled and roasted over their own exclusivity contracts is not an efficient way to go about it. If you're trying to convince people that maybe if they leave the paysites alone, they'll learn something, I think there are a number of counterarguments to that. If you're trying to tell people that maybe if they stop sharing their files, paysites will give money to free sites, I'm going to have to point and laugh at you. A lot.

But Lizard,

The only thing they are contributing to the community right now is:
*dividing people with and without money
*telling people they owe them something for what they offer themselves, out of free will
*making it normal and even attractive to sell stuff that shoudl never be sold
*ruining the community

They can never undo this if they continue to sell their items, and we can and will not take any step forward, because anything we would do, would just help them get accepted and get more money. It will not work.

Lyric, please get a fucking life.
Please for the sake of humanity.
Please.

I don't know if there is such a saying in english, but in russian we say "you see life through pink glasses" meaning, that everything seems so easy to you, and you haven't seen the real life.
If I understood you correctly - you want paysites to make payfiles free after some time. OK, I can imagine, that small sites would do this way. But do you really think that some Peggy or TSR will do this way too? :) I am sure, that all of the paysites owners would say "I don't care".

Hey, people, hold on a moment. I for one want to congratulate vulzard on making 4 entire decent posts with a sane and rational tone without screaming at us about morality. This is a big leap forward, congratulations!

That said, I agree that in a perfect world that'd be a nice compromise, one that maybe even most moderate pirate sympathizers could agree to. But unfortunately, a) paysite owners see no reason yet to change and b) it's still illegal anyway.

Yeah we have the "world through rose colored glasses" thing, Helena. And that's what Lizard's got. It's nice to be optimistic but when you step back from the "canvas" (I was an art student I know all about that metaphor) and look at it with fresh eyes being nice isn't going to help but so much. Paysites are still running even though a few are starting to go free, but the ones that remain free because they feel that you should pay for their work are the problem.  Friendly talks with them will just be deadlocked. They only see one thing and that's profit.

You're trying to preach about Paysites and Paysite-haters (for lack of better terms) trying to get together and share a little something called understanding.

I don't think thats going to happen.
We know why paysites exist - to make money. They care little for community. Community = sharing. Mm, I love sharing ;)

And, honestly:

The words 'but' and 'and' do NOT have accents on the vowels. :)

Hyperkitty,

I'm pretty sure Lizard isn't Lyriclee, at this point.
This is not the kind of thing Lyric would do, and not the language/writing style she would use.