PMBD

Captain Jojoba and I were talking today about how crappy many pay items are, and how there are amazing free creators who do BETTER work. We realized that as long as there's demand for their stuff - even in the booty - they'll keep creating it. Why not help reduce the demand ALTOGETHER?

We want to compile a list that we'll add to the FAQ, but we need your imput.

Think about popular paysites or pay creators... and then think about who makes similar or BETTER items for free. Who would you suggest?

For example... Instead of Peggy, Rose, and Raon... get better hair from XM, Helga, and Nouk.

next?

Hm.
People who like Steffor's work at TSR could download her FREE stuff from Avalon and her Banana site.
And always check MTS2 for what you want, even if TSR has it, because they tend to make similar items AFTER someone else has uploaded them to MTS2.
Good idea.

I agree with Ry, I always check MTS2 after seeing something I might like from a paysite even before I check the booty!  :lol: I also check Rissa's or Renegade for hair but they do use the paymesh so that doesn't count.  :?

Yup yup  :D

Most, if not all of us, are as pro free as we are anti pay. But we are not that hot when it comes to showing this pro free side...

So, this idea means lowering demand on pay items (which means they are less popular, less kaching, etc.) and increased use of free items (supporting free creators and sites) - so all good stuff!

Mkay, start with the obvious - hair stuffages. Hair is one of the most asked after thing in the shopping list (annoyingly so, hint why we now ask that requests for raon, peggy, rose are not posted!) so obviously a big thing..

Peggy, Raon, Rose. Alternatives, in terms of new meshes, sites/creators such as XMsims, Nouk, HP, Helga, Lunar, HIM666, Coris, Donny (http://www.modthesims2.com/creator/donnymeloche), Adele, Sizz, Louis, Seomi. In terms of recolours/textures/not new meshes but new hairs (that make sense), MTS2, GoS, Insimenator, TheSims2WritersHangOut....the Natural RedHead project is majorly recommended :P As is creators like Harripwns, Evanesco, Marie Fay, Schuldig Seiben, ButterflyKiss4u, Setso

...I know my free CC  8) Oh huzzah

Well, these people have no competition from paysites:

Ren at Rensim and Bruno at MTS2 for makeup, Enayla for skins, Ren at simscribbling for skins (and hair).

How about instead of comparing general styles, we compare actual popular files from the booty?  General styles are useful, but if we could also target specific files - maybe?  :D

How do you determine which files are most popular? Ask Pes for download rates?!  :?

Maybe, we should do *both*...mm ideas guys please?:)

Oh yes - I said also, so I meant both - I just got excited and changed tack halfway through my post.  :lol:

And yes, ask Pes.  That should be the best - rather than us jaded pirates who do not like much.  :D

Instead of paying for Simslice stuff like I used to, I go to Paladin's Place! Much more entertaining and the same sort of hacked items.

And Paladin's objects are made of win, whereas Simslice is maid of fail and lose. And the code is bullshit, too.

You know what would be a great resource? A compiled list of all free sims sites, perhaps broken down into category or style. It would be a major undertaking, though.

Would this site be at all helpful there, Lieg?

http://chukhin.brinkster.net/Lynne/sims/simlinks.html

Scroll down and they do break it out for objects (by style), bodyshop, etc.

i would but both sites always have terrible textures. good meshes, but terrible textures.

There's Download Whores (http://downloadwhores.farvista.net/downloadwhores.html) (which, she updated in December, yay!), maybe someone could take her list and strip out the paysites? I've got gobs of space available if someone wants to do it.

I don't know how to make those nifty tables.

Avalon is consistently wonderful.  In addition to Steffor's free stuff, OM makes great ethnic furniture sets and (IMO) the best paintings.  Tweetysmom has some of her recolors there, and is beginning to mesh.  Even the walls are terrific.  (Can you tell I'm a fan?) :D

So--Avalon for ethnic (mainly eastern and north African) furniture sets, paintings, recolors and walls--as opposed to Simaddict's Indian sets,  and stupid PAY walls--at TSR.

I love www.piggis-sims.net/ for recolors especially since so many people download specifically to get matching sets.  She does both maxis and other mesh recolors but seems to stick to the most popular meshes out there and uses the same set of textures to do all the recolors so everything matches easily.  Free of course!

Generally pay items are crappy, but they are different. And because people want variety in their game, they wants it.

I am no good at comparison or evaluation anymore since I haven't played in months, but I can offer questions! (and I plan to play tonight at some point)

Who else can offer good wood items? that rival Wood for Sims?
Window sets to rival Windkeeper?
Male custom content to rival Aikea and gelydh?

How bout having some self controll and not download pay crap even if it does look pwetty and shiny?  :roll:
That is never going to work in this community though  :lol:

This goes back to the question I always have about anytime a new Peggy or Raon hair is uploaded (at SFV) it gets downloaded the most of all downloads there. I just don't get that.  :shock: And no one has ever been able to answer me.  :?

But its common freaking knowledge that Peggy and Rose are scam artists.
In the world of hair and hairstyles.. everyone knows that free is the way to go! And if they don't know, the state of their game is their prerogative!

I'm just offering questions that I know are evident in the sims community

We all know about self control and arguing about quality vs quantity

but there is a reason Britney Spears (and the like) are popular.. they are in your face 24/7... so people are going to like hacks like Paysite owners because they are the ones with most coverage.

I don't like it.. I'm not involved..
I have very little CC that isn't combed through as it is.


 :twisted:

Indeed it would help. I didn't think Sailor June updated anymore :)

I've been doing what Hecubus suggested for quite a while now. I refuse to even have anything from paysites in my game these days. I think I've only ever downloaded from the booty about five times and none of it is even in my folders anymore.

Free CC is just so much better.

I do like the idea of some specifics - in particular, I get frustrated when someone wants a great utility item and defaults to the paysite rather than the free site. Examples for me include the OMSPs - been around for ages on MTS2, so why did Windkeeper make them? Also, Palladin does what SimSlice does...better, and free.

So how DO we proceed? Lists? Random postings? I mean, this could be a major project, or it could be a gentle list of suggestions...



Regarding XM: Flora is the hair creator that does the good stuff...her textures are as good as her meshes. It's the other one that's not so good.

I think yall should see about becoming editors for sims2wiki.info, and expanded off their hair gallery with this palindromes project.  While it wouldn't be the same thing as the hair gallery exactly, it would be in a similar vein; visual indication of fine free content over similar pay content.

I know that celebrity Sims are quite popular...although a bit creepy.

So instead of Chaz or Jirka, go to ReginaS

I'm not certain if there is a creator of high-demand pay make-up, but if so, Bruno at MTS2 would clearly be the better option.

It's unfortunate that there will always be people who think pay is better. I don't understand it but that is a general belief in the Sims community. In many ways this site and the Booty haven't stopped subscriptions, slowed them down but not stop them, instead the booty has offered people who couldn't afford or didn't have access to PayPAl or a credit card an opportunity to get the pay stuff. Win for those people but a null for PMBD.

I think the sites that have felt the impact of the Booty the most are those that offer "donation" packs and not subscription sites like the craptastic TSR - and the reason why is that so many people are simply too impatient to wait until the newest stuff is uploaded to the Booty. Compounding the problem is the fact that SFVs new system doesn't work well for a site like TSR with their inbedded tracking info and people being afraid of getting banned. Basically, TSR has set it up so people are going to pay to download and they are not going to share with more than a few close friends - win for them and a lose for everyone else.

To a certain extent you're not battling pay sites so much as the the people who are willing to pay them - you have to change their perspective and I don't think that will ever really happen.  After Peggy's latest male hair fiasco you would think she wouldn't have a customer left but people still support her (and I mean that literately) and they will continue to support her until she decides she's made enough money and moves on.

Just my buck fifty ;)

I love Palladin's stuff. Great place to go for free hacked objects.

A list is a good idea. You could post a free site that offers the same item TSR has for $$$ and compare them.

I'm more than willing to help with it too. Just drop me a line.

I can help, too and I like Markus' idea.  With school almost done, no more thesis, no more finals, I have lots of late nights to spare compiling a list and scouring the net for sites/forums.

Apart from Pescado's hacks, the Insim and Paladin's hacks are the only things I have in my game.  I loves him.  I've never been vaguely tempted to have any simslice crap ingame.  There are plenty of other hacked objects around the place too - no need to pay for simslice at all.

http://www.insimenator.net/showthread.php?t=48335

Maybe someone should do a knockoff of Peggy, like "I Can't Believe It's Not Peggy", of Peggy-lookalike stuff. Without the gaps.

If anyone has the skills and the time to do that, I would seriously have their babies.
That and perhaps lower the polycounts of some other bloated hairs/objects. And offer them for free! Yay!

If it's advertised enough, spoken about it enough... I KNOW I (and maybe you!)  will be amazed at the results. And, if anything, it will create some delicious drama!

 :twisted:

MOAR RUM!

There's a thread going on at N99 right now about TSR? And there are so many people posting about subbing there!  :shock: It originally started off with one person complaining she couldn't get in and she has a sub but it's turned into "I luv TSR" and it's making me ill.  :?

http://starlightsims.yuku.com/topic/23747

People like paysite stuff because to them it says "exclusive!!!!1111!!!!".  Then they can post pics of their houses and have everyone ask, "I've never seen that x before--where'd ya get it?"  To which they smugly answer, "Donation set from xyz".  And then the unwashed masses get themselves over to xyz pronto so they too can have speshul stuff.

Alrighties, so are we doing a general list, with focus on some specific popular items?

And with XMsims - yes there textures may sometimes be not that grand, but they are free, and are retextured by the masses, e.g just look at the hair section at MTS2.

With male alternatives to Aikea and Gelydh: one word - GoS.

As Markus has been doing, I dont have that much pay CC in my game..because I do truely believe that free is better and I would rather use that.

Mmm I think Kid said this perfectly - "To a certain extent you're not battling pay sites so much as the the people who are willing to pay them - you have to change their perspective and I don't think that will ever really happen". So very very true :) Although I hope that it does happen



Regenade already does this, does she not?

I think Pescado means make their own meshes from scratch, not fixing Peggy's crap, which Renegade does so well.  

If someone could copy the pay meshes, but, actually make them good and for free?  That could put Peggy and Rose out of business.

I highly doubt this. Owning Peggy or Rose stuff is about prestige. You cannot have prestige if it's for free, right? Prestige has to be expensive, so you can think of yourself to be better than the masses.

I suggest, additional to putting them up for free you say, they can only be obtained for a donation, which you after receiving donate to the Red Cross for their blood bandwidth problems.

Although I'm sure Peggy and the like, still make a killing off unfortunate souls willing to pay for their crap... I look at the amount of members on PMBD and giggle a bit.
Because a good chunk of that number represent lost sales.

(The rest represent the self sacrificing booty donatores and the people who'd never buy from paysites anyway, regardless of booty).

Peggy losing around 4000 people is a good start.. and that doesn't include unregistered downloaders.

That's a lot of money considering her retard membership costs.

(lets not forget SFV members and GoS too..)

I personally don't think all pay creators are evil. I don't agree with pay at all, but some pay artists I've spoken to have been sweet people.
...I do however.. think big sites like Peggy are just bloody evil... the amount of money she asks for.. those PG points.. those "gifts"... her entire site is not just pay.. it's a giant scam from hell and should be burned.

There's always Renegade fixin stuff. :P
Also, who the hell wants to recolor hair green and yellow and fire-engine red  and purple as natural colors on purpose anyway.
Also, there's Helga who makes similair stuff, right? And not green.

I thought it would be a good idea if they were all fixed and available for free just to show her

Renegade has only done the worst in the bunch


Tis an idea I kinda liked :)

I agree about the exclusive thing... to a point... People who just want stuff for themselves and want to pay for it, need their heads examined. Its just a game, the items are cloned or remeshed from basic Maxis objects. It's not something you need to pay for!
If you want to be exclusive and smug, make stuff only for you. Then show it off if you must. But once you do that, you are bound to be copied!

 :lol:

downloadwhores...she has alot of incorrect stuff even though she finally updated in december she removed sites that simply moved like Doursim which moved a YEAR ago. All she would have had to do is type in doursim into google and it would have given her the new address in 5 seconds.
So although i love the idea, its not executed very well :(

I maintain a list of 100% free download sites: http://wickedsims2.com/links.shtml
I only have it separated into 3 categories though: new to my page, updated recently, and not updated recently but downloads are still available.

Anyone is more than welcome to take that list and change it into one that has download categories on it like downloadwhores has. My list doesnt have every sims site on it, but it has all the ones im aware of pretty much. And I update it every 2 weeks or so to remove dead sites and update links for the ones that have moved.

Plus theres always WNF lol :D

I think someone was already planning on having a site that was sort of like BSB but also had freesite comparisons? I'm not sure what happened with that though, Nouk would be more in-the-know than me lol

I think the main problem with paysites being in-demand is that they make realistic popular hairstyles (like certain celebs wear) and most free creators have unique styles that dont fit everyone. I love nouk, but her hair isnt for everyone (it is for me though, i have pretty much all of them lol). And there are a few great hair meshers on mts2 and stuff but they only seem to make Anime hair styles and only for boys :|

I've never seen anything like it.  How odd.  o.O

I think because when you go pay.. it's about the money.. and you make what's in demand.. whether you consider making it fun or not fun. I make stuff as a hobby as all free creators do, so I just make what I want in my game and don't care about what other people want to see. If people share my taste, I consider it a very nice bonus. XD
I do try my best though, to make stuff dual gender. So all my hair is male and female. (Although it's always under male at MTS2 because they don't have a "unisex" section for hair downloads). I'll most likely make hair that is less anime later on, as I've got a lot of ideas.. but when it's not anime, I do fantasy... so my hair will still always be.. unusual. XD

I suppose pleasing the masses all the time is something that sell-outs do.. and selling out is only something that happens in exchange for money.. stating the obvious XD.

Anyways, I think as a creator/artist in general... I like having my own thing.. or something I'm known for! Those big paysites are all the same.. none of them have a special "thing" or style. Freesites have styles and uniqueness. If people look for me when they want to dress up their anime fairy sim or whatever, I think that's cool. I can be known for that and quite happy about it. <3

I suppose we need a good free creator who has passion for creating... popular hairstyles like the pay ones... but I can't really think of one... I REALLY don't find myself having fun making Paris Hilton Hair er.. whatever. lol

WNF- Wicked Nouk Family
GoS- Garden Of Shadows

GoS stands for Garden of Shadows (http://gardenofshadows.digitalperversion.net/), and WNF for Wicked Nouk Family (http://wickednoukfamily.com/) :)

i agree with ws-jessica about the reason for the popularity of the pay hair sites; maybe i'm wrong - and it's certainly not true in all cases, as people play the game in different ways and for different reasons - but i think that a significant number enjoy Sims 2 because it allows them to play out fantasies or they use it as a platform for wish-fulfillment. (Maybe it's just because i don't get around much, but i've never actually met anyone who used their possession of pay CC as a bragging point :shock: And i'm quite grateful for that.) They might not have the money for the designer clothes or fussy celeb hairdos in RL, so they get them for their Sims instead. Paysites specialise in these types, so they're popular. If there were free lookalikes available, i'm sure that these paysites would lose a big chunk of their supporters.

I see you were not a member of Simbella, then.  Simbella was notorious for that. And they had exclusive content that you could have if you asked and did not share with anyone outside the forum. But of course they also had super exclusive stuff that the inner circle shared among themselves.

Also, take Aikea_Guinea. People are obsessed with her sims because they cannot have them. Also, she has some things she refuses to share with anyone, thus everyone tries to kiss her ass as best they can, because if you become one of her chosen ones, she shares her stuff with you.

To a certain degree, all paysite stuff is all about exclusivity. Not all can afford it, thus if you have it, your game is better than others.

Or you know how (or where) to bend the rules.

Lucky, lucky you! :lol:
It's not quite so bad as it used to be, IMO. When places like Liquid Stars and then Simbella's first opened it was terrible!
I think that *most* people are realising now that sharing is best. Even if they don't say so out loud. I've gotten several requests for things from people who aren't usually asking forstuff. For some reason people like to PM me at other forums and ask where to get so and so's objects.
*shrugs*
I know it's because I'm open about things. I only have one other username and I have my usual in my sig at tat place, too.
Babbling, sorry. :oops:
Not enough coffee yet.

Some people are on a big ego trip!

*nudge nudge*HIM666 at Wicked Sims has recreated some unreleased Aikea Guinea stuff. It's super fantastic.

I know most people willing to pay for Exnem stuff because how his objects look all shiny. If only I or some one else had the talent and know how to create objects and use coding like him for free!!! it would be a major turn around. I agree on Plaldin objects because his objects is so Damn Good and don't even mess up your game.

I know and now they're pointing this new person to all the "top" creators at TSR who are pay!  :shock: WTF????

*puts on tinfoil hat* They've been infiltrated! That's how it looks, though. Like they've got their little goons over there and are pointing the fools over to TSR cause the people don't know any better.

 :o *dies of happiness*

I had no idea! Thank you so much!

Here, have all my rum! You deserve it! :D

HIM666 is awesomenes.

Yeah, I never joined Simbella (lucky me again XD) Only heard about it when I started lurking the Phorum, actually. Then again, I only got TS2 last March, and haven't been an active member in anything other than a couple of small forums. So I've been spared all the drama, which is fine by me :lol: Drama's only fun from a distance and in stories. I suppose it's natural, if ugly behaviour, since humans are competitive creatures.

Aikea's stuff is very nice, but I wouldn't degrade myself for the sake of some pixels. A few someones tried to act all friendly to me on Gaia to get art before, and it annoyed the crap out of me. Am not that stupid, thx.

Someone there stole my super-original name that I totally did not copy from a fruit. *narrowy eyes*

I think this really is the heart of the problem.  I make sims of characters from stories I write and I usually have a very specific style in mind.  Quite a few times I've found that the pay hairs were closer to what I was looking for than a lot of the free hairs (though if there's a "duplication", I go with the free).

I don't know if this exist or not, but there should be someplace where you take the pay hairs and then show free hairs of a similar style.  I've always thought that something like that would be helpful along with links and a quality report (e.g.  mentioning any gappiness, animation problems, etc.).

I found this site (http://www.freesims2sites.com/) through Google but it looks like it may be dead or hasn't really gotten off the ground.

There is a disclaimer on the "Mission" page:



I have no idea who "Webmist" (the Administrator) is.

One thing that might help bring awareness to the awesomeness of free creators:

Become active in WCIF areas of other sites and send people to free sites for the stuff they want, especially when someone else has sent them to look at a pay item.

The important thing is that you have to take your idea outside of here and other forums like this you're really just preaching to the choir if you don't.

May I suggest to those of you who have not yet done so, that you check out http://freesims2simming.wetpaint.com

This is a wiki, so anyone can join and  make pages and entries on existing pages. You can even display your  hair comparison charts.  :)

I'm glad we're only looking at trying to help each other out and raise awareness of free sites here, if it went into the "what meshes do you have on your site" territory again like it did at the height of the free site debate, I'd break out in a cold sweat. :lol:

Along similar lines; I once thought of a review site for Sims content because I have some weird review writing brain thing that thinks that sort of thing is fun.  In the end I ditched the idea because I would flake on it inside of a month if I did it solo (it would be a great group project though).  Then I went to play Neverwinter Nights fan mods for three years and forgot about the issue entirely.  

The basic concept was to post site/content reviews in blog format and link to alternatives when appropriate.  And of course now that I've found the booty since my return to the game, to link to it for an individual paysite/modder when it was decided that their material was actually quality, even though it was paid.  Reviews from readers would be fine barring obvious writing issues.  

Sites like Simgeodoehns2 or Sims2Play, could be knocked out with a single post reviewing the site on the whole or tackled over the course of a week with category/set reviews.  Larger sites such as TSR I figured could be more of a by request after hitting popular modders first.  

For download junkies like myself, one helpful feature could a be a file count for big site/modder reviews.  Say you just hit TSR to grab all of MelandStv's free color pack downloads and the StudioK line of walls and floors.  If that's all that's in your downloads folder you'll thousands of files to start with.  But after purging garish/would never use it colors, tile sets that that hurt your eyes with the camera pulled too far back, wooden floors and carpets that I have better looking versions off, incomplete wall sets (edge options available for one color but not the others), I was down to a few hundred.  Easy way to give readers an idea of how much on a paysite is actually worth it, plenty of room to note the subjective like color choices and types of detail, and if you don't know a free option for the stuff you though was almost okay, odds are a reader does and might submit a review of their own or link to other content in a comment.  

But the one thing I recall being insistent on in my brain was to always refer to people as modders and not creators.  This is not intended to slam those folks, paysite or otherwise, who do create lovely meshes and textures, so much as to remind them that they are modifying existent code not creating from scratch.  It's the normal terminology in all other games that I play.  

In any case I still like the idea and if a few people wanted to get together and start a blogspotty type of thing, I'd happily contribute as I'm perpetually in the midst of going through downloads.  I wouldn't start it myself because I hate being in charge and need an editor to make me cut down on the verbage (obviously).  

Just thought I'd toss the idea out there.

It sounds interesting, but the thing is everyone has different tastes so I guess if you go from the perspective of QUALITY, like mentioned, does it look weird from far away?, does it bleed?, does it not follow the object guidelines (for example, for a wood floor does the sim actually osund like its on wood flooring)?

However this is a HUGE TASK. With new stuff coming out everyday, the idea is fine but too big a concept to truly tackle.

Unless you have an idea to do so?  8)

I mean I might help out, I don't know yet.
My simming days are kinda limited these days HOWEVER.. I really want to start to learn how to make a site, so I might be persuaded  :lol:

Problem is that you are "not allowed" to critique free sites because they are free.  Even if it wasn't frowned upon, you'd be facing a community that has trouble taking critique and giving critique for the most part.  

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it.. just be prepared for the drama and tears that may come from it because you dissed a painting someone made in two minutes of a copyright artwork through the use of SimPE templates but somehow he/she worked "oh so hard on it."

I thought of the subjective tastes issue, and it's something I think could be fairly easily addressed in one (or more) of a few basic ways; multiple reviewers on some projects (i.e. three different perspectives), a reviewer noting their own tastes (I tend to delete most bright yellows and hot pinks myself but someone else might like them), reader submitted reviews of content and/or assigning people based on interest.  

Originally I had thought to critique free content but I figure with all the hoopla it would be easier and more productive to the "cause" to review pay content, and point out alternatives, particularly when the pay content has quality issues like the hair gaps (some of this would be subjective also, such as shininess of skins).   But even when a reviewer finds high quality pay content, they could still suggest free alternatives for my fellow poor peeps.  That way instead of criticizing people who are making free content, even though it's not high quality, you're simply pointing people to the good free content.  People with pay content would still get miffed but I dont' really care what they think anyway.  

"This set from Simsdeoghens (or however you spell their name, great furniture) is awesome but you might check _______ since they have a similar set that's free.  If you can't live without it, there's always the booty."  Imagine links where appropriate (seriously anyone know a free alternative to them, I'm hooked on their room sets).  

Half of what started the idea for me was downloading a bunch of stuff from some site and finding that their images were heavily edited and the objects were not as nice in game.  It's something I've noticed more since finding the booty and of course I'm not the first to notice.  

In the end though, it IS a really massive project and something I think would be easier to start at the beginning of a game instead of here near the end of a game's main releases.  Maybe I'll hold onto it until Sims 3 comes out.

You're right, it would be a massive project, and it is hard to care enough right now to tackle something like what you describe.

I have always thought that a site where people could bring a pay item to you and you could tell them where to get a similar free item instead. But then I thought, some people will use the site to locate pay items so they could buy them. How would you know which pay items are sought-after? There are always cons to any pro you come up with. Besides, the Booty serves a similar purpose...providing a place to actually get the pay items for free. And besides, there are plenty of sites offering lists and directories of free content. So no need to invent the wheel again.

That was never our intent; we know there are good lists of free sites; we were simply hoping to list content types of some of the more popular paysites and offer better alternatives. That's the one thing that's missing from all the lists.

I don't think it has to be an All-Knowing or Complete list; but it helps to have better, free alternatives to craptastic sites that people seem to love (peggy, simslice, simfreaks).

  I wonder why you bring that up here.
 I STILL believe that using "free" meshes from paysites is in fact promoting those paysites.

*swigs rum, passes bottle, and goes to make popcorn*

I've been wondering about that.  I mean I guess with the modders who have all their stuff free (there's a few on TSR who used to also post on MTS2...did TSR chage policies and make that not OK anymore) it's not AS big of a deal.  But look at those Murano wall and floor mirrors, for example.  Damned near everyone uses them in preview shots of their own content, even on free sites like MTS, which just advertises their existence on TSR, where only the two basic files are free.  

I've been in gaming communities off and on for years, and we are all a nutty bunch, no doubt.  But the Sims 2 community really takes the cake (which is both good and bad).  FOn the upside, it's always entertaining to run into another Simmer in another game... we get to talk smack about the paysite debacle (generally an embarrassment to anyone who is involved in other game communities than this one).  Had a great chat on some NWN and "The Movies" forums about this not too long ago.  The folks who hadn't heard about the debate were appalled a modder would charge for their mods.  Good times.

That's an excellent idea.

Other modding communities also have rating scales on their big central sites, whereas here it seems to be thanks or nothing. Except for the Exchange :roll:. I would love, love, love for this community to become more like other gaming communities in how it deals with mods and modders. I still have hopes for Spore changing some things, if the damn game ever comes out.

I don't think it's helpful to put pressure on free creators to do things over again, and certainly not helpful to assess a site on this.  Particularly as some creators started ages ago, doing things.  For example, I downloaded the shiny floors back when teko stuff was on simbella for free - just cause they are pay now doesn't mean that I downloaded them now - and so this could explain why "pay content" is shown on freesites.  Nor do I think it helpful to rehash ideas that put freesite owners off.  

Personal feelings are just that - personal - not to be judged in an arbitrary manner by those who set themselves up as arbitrators.

*Point of note - you will find no pay content on my site, except the stuff I paid for from EA - just to save you all checking.  :D

*takes swig* Sue, I actually agree with you on this.. which is why none of my new stuff uses meshes from a paysite even if it's free. But like Calaily says, reinventing the wheel is painful and it's easy enough to just let that old stuff get buiried as you make new stuff. Very few people go ten items back into something, they're usually not that patient.

Sitting there warming up old content kills the fun of the hobby for me.

i've had an idea
i'm in the process of making a (probably monthly, gives me time to scour for new content) catalogue of sorts (the kind you might recieve from a furniture store/department store etc) of beautiful free/maxis content.
there is such a huge amount of free custom content available and so much of it is gorgeous, and people just don't get to see it or dismiss it as being rubbish (because it's free!).
i had this idea in the shower (lol) to make something that was visually great to show people that FREE content doesn't have to mean SHIT content. (because i know that a lot of people think this way)
it'd be designed beautifully, and displayed on a website and/or like a downloadable pdf. it would obviously have all the links to everything in the pictures, so the freesites get a looot of love from us all.

does this sound like a good idea or a shit one???

That aint a bad idea.  Great for your first post.

I think the best place to advertise this would be in general discussion on the bbs,  (I wouldn't normally advocate using the bbs but in this case, it is where most of the paysite sheep hang out).

Something like, 'Out now, edition one, free site catalogue, get the best content here'.

That does sound like fun. It would be great if it was slick and elegant and regularly updated. Sounds like a full time job, actually. I would be available to help on an occassional  basis.

Well I'd certainly love to hunt down some good freebies for the endeavor.  I haven't been on the BBS in ages though (2004ish?).  I had a snafu with Pogo/EA regarding my user name back when EA first took them over and it's never been resolved (in fact they haven't bothered to answer any of the 20 emails I've sent them about it since 2002).  It bugs me to not be "millahnna" somewhere other than TWoP (TV site).

I didn't know those mirrors used to be free.  I think for me, that somehow makes it worse.

Back in 2006 and early 2007 I have been a member and part of the crew at the BetterSimsBureau.
It was a lot of work to rate some of the better known paysites, and some of you might know that we didn't even finish what we planned to do. Pics weren't included in the ratings, the rating system wasn't clearly thought through etc.
And the most important part: At the beginning we were many, and it was a lot of fun, but quite soon most members lost interest and the BSB-forum was closed down.

If you plan to do something similar, now with concentrating on free sites, you have to know that it's a lot of work. I don't think that it could be done by a single person, and any crew you have should be really interested in the things you are doing.
Since many people here are interested in such a mission they might be good members. But people also have been interested in being a part of the BSB...

 Hey! I frequent the forums at TWop! Especially Amazing Race. Anyway, those mirrors DID used to be free, but thank goodness they are on the booty.

hey, i'm glad peeps think it's a good idea, because i think it's a great idea!
(i would have elaborated more last night but it was late and i was sleeeepy)

i realise it will be a shit-ton of work, but i work at home as a graphic designer and i have quite a bit of downtime, so until it got so big that i couldn't handle it alone, i would have plenty of time to devote to it. of course if anyone wanted to donate their time to search for goodies, it would obviously be very gratefully appreciated!

i'm not sure i want to do anything like rating freesites, it's more of a nice showcase and like, a finds site i suppose, which is sorta why i was a little worried it might be a bit redundant, considering forums and stuff do finds and updates. this would be different because it wouldn't just be site updates, it would be content from all over in the pictures, not just from one site.

i picture it being really slick, professional looking, - because as SparklePlenty says, a lot of sites out there look like shit (not to berate any of the site owners, i understand that not everyone has the skills in that area, and thats fine!) and it would be really nice to have their great content displayed in such a way that well, it doesn't look shit, haha.

I'm thinking that it would be a monthly thing, because i'd want to have a good amount of time to put together some nice shots, and gather great content (which wouldn't be particularly hard since there is sooo much!) and i think it would end up being quite a cool resource - specifically with the downloadable pdfs - which would also include links since you can include live links in a pdf, so it would be just the same as online. after a few months of this you'd have like a wee e-book with sweet content, and if you didn't download something from previous months you can just go back and look through your editions and grab it the next month or whenever, you know?

i'll have an invitation for freesite owners to contact me with their items, it'll end up being pretty good advertising for their sites i think!

shit i'm sorry about the freakin novel here dudes...
lol

oh here's one of my pictures i have already - sort of the direction i'm going in :)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg318/i_saw_drones/kitchen-example.jpg)

everything in this kitchen came from a free site or maxis!

i am excited about my little project, hehe :)

oh, and i'm thinking of only doing a furniture one to start with - furniture/accessories/walls&floors - you know, a decor type thing.

if it's successful i'll probably end up doing a fashion/skins etc one too, but i want to see how this pans out first, and it is a loooot of work to do both (and i gotta do my actual job sometime too, lol)

Ohmigosh, I love that pic!

Hee, I'd download all that in a heartbeat! :D

I really like the idea of the catalog, especially if it comes out once a week completely labeled like (for example) Ikea or Freedom catalog where there is a number or letter next to each item and down the bottom a description and link. I think that if the page is archived, updated and designed nicely (as well as being advertised!) Free content sites will get more hits because the rooms look desirable and gorgeous and everyone will realise that decorating with free content is awesome!

Hopefully in time, people will realise that venturing into making money from this game is just wrong. It's not worth it.

TOTORO!!!!

But back on topic. That picture is beautiful. I would definitely download all of the stuff in that picture.

I like the idea too, I'd visit a site like that for sure!  :D  

Maybe I'd recommend it to newbie people on some site, like the official swedish sims site. There are many kids there who's very new to everything about downloading, and I'm sure they'd like a site like that too. Plus: What's better than a site where you can find links to lots of nice free stuff? I'm sure there's many great freesites that not so many knows about, and that great free content needs to be brought into the light! AMEN. Or ARR! if you like that better.

Hmm, it might be hard to avoid repeats, but I do some building and I tend to stick to Maxis/MTS2 stuff when I upload lots because I don't like to weigh people's downloads down AND it's a pain in the ass to collect all the content links, for the stuff I include and the stuff I can't include.

But I do have other freesite stuff in them here and there.  If I come up with any nice room shots next time I upload a house, I'll send it your way with links to the content (since I'd have already had to collect them).

Yeah, I totally understand the whole tedious shopping list thing

BUT there are a lot of people that just want a particular item/floor/wall from the page and a direct link to it is better than downloading the whole set for it.

It will be kinda like a finds page.

The only thing I KNOW that sucks is that downloaders are hoarders and they want as much stuff as possible, and because its so easy to download and install CC, their appetite is MASSIVE. Hence why they go to paysites. To continuously feed that hole.

So I guess its a huge job...

ehhe... BTW Totoro is so big and fat and squishy.. I've always wanted one :P

i don't think it would be a major problem if there was the odd repeat here and there. obviously if the same thing keeps popping up all the time it would definitely be a problem, but if it was occasional i think it would be ok...

i look through catalogues all the time and they're constantly repeating products!

theres heaps of stuff about anyway, with new content appearing every single day (from whole sets, to tiny paintings or sculptures, or a sweet lamp, or a nice rug - that sort of thing) so i think it would be easy enough to come up with new content.. but perhaps i am deluding myself ;)


this is exactly what i'd do!

it'll be great :)

we're never going to change everyones mind about paysites, but if we convert even a handfull i'll be happy!

I would love to help with this when time allows.

I'm a big interior decorator type, so this is what I do in-game anyway.

Question: does this mean you would be completely eliminating objects from sites like 4ESF and Holy Simoly?

I think it's a fantastic idea - and yes, I think it would be important to eliminate free things from paysites - but it depends on how you want to go about things.  :D

hmm, i wasn't going to eliminate free things from pay sites - i figure if it's free its free, i didn't think it would matter where it came from...
like with H.S for example, the majority of their content IS free..

if you think this is the wrong way to go about it, i'll take it into consideration, definitely

I don't really want to put excessive pressure on you  :D Ultimately, if it's free, I'm not going to quibble with you alot - or make your job difficult - that defeats the whole purpose.  

My personal view is that if you include free things from paysites, then you could be forfeiting something that if you looked, could be found in a freesite.  Not to mention that it saves you from the whole "well no one would want it without the TSR window set".

Not to mention that if you put it out to freesite owners that you would like say postmodern rooms, then they might help you by pointing out theirs' or someone else's appropriate content.  :D

very very good points



this point is a very good one, though with the TSR window set thingy, it wouldn't be a problem, because everything in a picture - walls floors windows doors evvvverything would be freely available (for free, obviously) so you could get around that. just because something comes in a 'set' doesn't necessarily mean it has to go with that set all the time right!
i do agree with your point about just looking for something that could be found on a freesite, it's a great idea. i think i'll definitely need to wrangle in a few people to help me out sooner rather than later, hehe.



i really like this idea, and it was something i was thinking about, getting people to point out content for the project. i love the idea that it's all unsolicited, you know, just referrals and stuff, word of mouth is the best!

there could be a 'suggest a site' or even just 'suggest an object' type form somewhere on the sitewhere people can make suggestions, i think that would work very well.

i don't want to make it too involved, just a nice site/catalogue thing which grows every month to show off all the fabulous content that is freeeee!

*comes out of her doze from under the truck* TSR??? Blow it up! *goes back to sleep*

Ah see, I've had many a disagreement on S2C with paysite owners, who said well you wouldn't like xxx if there wasn't free stuff from a paysite in it - you're really supporting paysites.  Their claim is that freesites relying on free content from paysites just supports the idea that in order to have the large amount of free content, you need to pay the bills with pay content.  If that makes sense.  :D



You know that if you asked here, someone would be able to provide the information.  :D

It didn't that's why they're wrong.  :D

Actually, I was wondering whether I made sense.  :P

I'm mainly thinking of the strategic advantage of being able to use free site stuff - all reliance on paysites can be eschewed, and no one can say "well that's not all "freesite" stuff, is it?"  :D

Oh well, no you didn't make sense to me, but then again I don't really count. :lol: They're still wrong though.

Well, no, they have an arguable point - that free sites rely on paysite mentality.  Some paysites justify their pay content by saying that they need the bandwidth money for free stuff - so they sell a small amount of content to pay for bandwidth for free stuff - thus their free content is supported by their pay content.  I do believe this is the argument that Holy Simoly puts forth for having pay content - to try to give everyone the free stuff.

*Hence, free stuff on paysites wouldn't exist without the pay content.*

I see it differently - in that this is the free samples to tempt you to buy stuff, but we're not trying to get already converts to use free stuff - we're trying to get paysite lemmings to use free stuff.

No, I think it sends a stronger message when all the items in a picture are from 100% free sites.

I just personally have an HS addiction. Like their Adelle dining chair and Piggisims' recolors. (Ahhh that's a great chair.)

But I wouldn't mind putting in the extra effort to use all free content from all free sites. Just wanted to check the guidelines before I got started making a room.

But that doesn't make sense when you consider that Noukie, Jess, and others are running sites on voluntary donations. There are other alternatives other than having pay content to pay for crap. Ads are annoying yes but they would work for a small site like Jan/Bev/ WTFever. It still doesn't make that much sense to me. =D

I still say blow up the paysites, then we won't have to worry about the bastiges... use bubble soap on their mother boards, bubble gum in their CPU's or Super Elastic Bubble Plastic in their power source, blow 'em up! *goes back to sleep, flu sucks*

hmm i guess i have a lot to think about.. lol

I mean is it really wrong to use an item on a room if that item has always been free from the paysite owner?

It's still free.

I'd help.
I pride myself on making great rooms, I would love to have a reason to show em off, and to help find stuff. Sure I'd be happy to learn how to make a webpage because uh.. Im computer retarded.

But if it helps the cause to blow TSR up... I'm all for it! And I shall give it my best :)

i sortof agree, while i understand totally what calalily means.

but a free item is still a free item, ya know?

i'll take care of all the 'getting it all online' stuff, with hosting and updates and everything and if people find things but don't really want to make them into a setting, thats cool, just point me in the direction and i'll do it, no drama!

please, if anyone would like to help me out, just pm me (i don't want to saturate this thread with my shit any more than i have already - apologies!! lol) so yeah, pm me or email me (sarah at sixty-ten dot net).
i would be eternally grateful!

this is still in its infancy, and i really still need to figure a few things out, but i'd love to get the first issue/get it all up online in the next month!

p.s i'm thinking a nice wee addition to the site i set up would be a sweet freesite feature blog type thing - with links and pictures and stuff as a suppliment - like if we find a sweet FREESITE (not paysite, lol) it's worthwhile to feature it - give them some love. i think it would be fair for this section to be ONLY for 100% free sites, because they deserve our love more than the free/pay sites!

<3

"like if we find a sweet paysite it's worthwhile to feature it - give them some love"

What?

:shock:

LOL
I MEANT FREESITE!
WTF
hahahah
sorry
FREE!! it's all about the free!

Indeed. Using free items from paysites promotes the paysites, increases their popularity..more customers...etc. Thats not what we want to do.

Purpose is to promote free sites so do that. I agree with Rose that should be items from completely free sites

*taps hat*

Okay. I understand.


The Captain has spoken :P


but yeah.. the fact that downloaders are so greedy! and want more! they will be suckered to pay for the shiny objects that are advertised (they might fall for the "think of the chilluns" line) and we don't want that

ok sweet, i concede!
100% free sites or nothing :)
win!!!

Just throwing in my 2 cents: I saw Drones, I too think it's a great idea. Not only because it will promote free stuff in an attractive and easily accessible way. But also because for someone like me it would be just perfect. I basically go on a downloading spree once every three months and I never know where to start. Your magazine would provide an excellent shopping list. I'm sure it would be the same for all those others who don't have time to keep up with the daily finds in the forums and finds sites.

Best of luck with the project.  :D

thankyou, thankyou! i really appreciate the support :)

None of the freesites, no matter how much ad revenue or donations that they get make them in any way similar to paysites.  They withhold no content - they are not paysites. Ads and selling content have nothing in common whatsoever.

I've argued this point with many a paysite owner at s2c - they think that if you use their free stuff, you're endorsing their paystuff, because that's what they rationalise keeps the free stuff online.

Another example: do you think that they would have free samples of bread at a bakery if they weren't trying to sell you bread?  Do you think that the people who get paid for bread would put it out there for free while selling nothing? They factor the free samples into the profit of the bread sold - as extra cost to selling bread.  



I knew I was your wench for some reason you smart little thing.  :D

I know Cala. I was agreeing with the whole idea that you don't have to have donation items to make and keep up a site  :lol:

ETA: Not real sure if you're just giving me information or if you took my words the wrong way.  :D Confusion!

No - we know that they don't need them - but that's their reasoning, and their reasoning must be ground to a fine powder and mixed with their food.  :D



I just wanna make confusion clear - otherwise I will be misquoted at some future stage.  :P Tinfoil FTW!

Oh we all know they don't need the money to keep the doors open. When you get to the stage that you can do hundreds and hundreds of gigs for a relatively small sum (about 3-7 bucks a month spread over a year or two) if they're paying any more than that, it's just damn laziness and noone else should have to pay for it..

I like how we all nailed that argument to the wall six months ago, and they then went on to mangling the creator's rights argument out of all recognition. It's interesting though.. I've talked to small paysite owners even way back when and they were honest they were doing it for pocket money.. (this was before it was ok to be vocal)

The bottom line I think is they're slippery dishonest buggers who've gotten away with conning people for too long so they don't think we notice when they switch midstream, but we do..

What I think is, we get what we focus on.. I like threads like this because it's more about encouraging free stuff than anything. If we focus too much on the paysites other than cutting them off at the legs, that's what we end up with more of.

i gotta say, since making the move to freesite only content (i've adopted this into my game as well) it's really opened my eyes to some wonderful content.
 eliminating paysites/ free/pay sites forces you to look harder for stuff, and makes you appreciate it way more.

to be honest i don't really even miss most of the stuff anymore!

Yay! This is what we want for others too - that they find that wonderful free content that goes neglected in favour of the heavily linked pay crap that comes up the top of google.  :D

That being said, if you ever lack for some good freesite stuff, you only have to ask, and you'll have at least 20 pirates finding stuff for you.  :lol:

Bandwidth is really a joke, at this point. For example, I get 1000 GB of transfer (bandwidth) a month for $6.99. GoS and DP use only about a quarter of it, and that's being generous. We also get quite a bit of traffic on the forum at different times. If I really needed more, I think I can double or triple that for $12.99 a month. If you need all that bandwidth for your site, chances are at least one or two people will help you out and donate enough to pay your bill. Bandwidth isn't that expensive anymore.

Even with all this talk of 'greater' and 'lesser' paysite evils, a paysite is still just that-- a paysite. Even the free things from a paysite are part of that paysite. If you are advertising free sites, a site that has pay content SHOULD be excluded. It can be sad, since a few sites have a large quantity of quality free stuff, but if it has 'donation sets' then it's not really free.

that rocks so much
though i think it'll be practically impossible to be lacking in good free stuff if what i have downloaded in the last week is anything to go by, lol.

i deleted all the pay crap and promptly filled it all up with free stuff,
um, to the point that i had to increase the size of my c drive to accomodate it.. dang. lol

also, wow@1000gb of transfer for $6.99, that is awesome

for my site (portfolio) i have 1.5gb storage & 40gb transfer for $8.95 and i thought THAT was good. i barely use any of that, and since i started using photobucket to host pictures it's become even less.

pro photobucket accounts are ONLY $25 a year, and it saves you from a lot of bandwidth troubles on your site, since you'd only be using your space to host the files and site. people will look at all the photos you have on a site, but may only download a few files??

if you run a site, and can't pony up $9 a month to host it, then you need a better job. don't expect other people to pay for your hobby fools!

it's not rocket science...

Yep, this is my plan from Godaddy:


You get your choice of linux or windows platform, and like 25 SQL databases. It isn't bad at all. It's still shared hosting, but I haven't had any speed issues on this plan. The basic plan is $3.99 and has something like 5GB of disk space and 250GB transfer, but the basic shared server was too slow to host a forum on. But really, for a basic sims site sans forum, that's a pretty reasonable package. Even when I was on disability and couldn't even afford $4 a month extra, I always had a kind person or two donate to cover it. There is NO excuse for a paysite.

I read this thread yesterday morning, thought about it, and spent the rest of the day at a site that I've only visited sporadically before--MTS2.  

I'm still just scratching the surface, but I've downloaded tons of free stuff I didn't even realize was available, and bookmarked dozens of artists whose work I'd only scanned before.

And I realized something about my downloading habits:  For me, it's not a matter of "this is better stuff because it's pay".  It's just been a matter of convenience.  I got into the habit of going to certain pay sites, giving a little money here and there, and downloading the things that appealed to me.  Why?  Because I was so eager to spend my limited free time playing that I didn't want to spend more time looking around for new sites to find free downloads, or plowing through huge sites like MTS2 to find what I wanted.

Am I ready to discard everything pay from my downloads folder?  Probably not--hey, I'm honest.  But am I going to be discarding a lot of pay stuff in favor of free stuff?  You betcha.

So I guess I'm learning :)  Not 100% there yet, and may never be.  But I can see having an 85-90% downloads folder that's from free sites in my not-too-distant future.

I actually think it's a lot easier than it was six or twelve months ago, because back then there was almost no free hair (barring the fabulous Nouk) and nearly no free pay objects.. Now that there are a lot of free creators doing objects, it's not a hardship to have all or mostly free stuff.

For me it's never been hair...I've just not been into different hairstyles that much (until I started d'loading Nouk's!).  For me it's always been clothes and furniture and gadgets.  It's a lot more difficult and time-consuming to go out and find new and quality things when you're in the habit of going to a few major paysites and just taking what's available there.  

But I'm slowly learning.  Of course, it's taking time away from my game-playing, but I'm enjoying playing more because I know I'm not supporting those who are just in the process to make a buck or two.

I'm with you. My buy mode folder is bigger than all the others combined, and that's not including cars. I can't help myself...

My only pay stuff weakness is Wood For Sims and Holy Simoly

MAYBE some payhairs (but interestingly only the bobs.. I have this thing for short hair)

But the rest is all free. Free stuff has the most variety IMO.

:)

If you want the most gorgeous bob you've ever seen - Carnaby Sims (http://www.carnabysims.com/) has it - it's gorgeous.

OMG..... Calalily...thanks!!!

Ack! So...excited...love...mod...stuff...


 :twisted:  Awesome!

*offeres you a cup of tears from people she had to torture at work today...for you!!!*

Gorgeous isn't it?  That's our very own Captain Berg's site.  She so rocks.  :D

Carnaby's easily one of the  - if not simply the - most stylish clothing sites out there. I try not to have too much recolours of the same model to control The Bloat, especially if they're heavy, but Carnaby's stuff looks so great in game I can't resist snatching another  'just one more thing' whenever taking a peak there.

I ADORE that bob.. Calalily put me onto it and it is one of the only 5 or 10 hair meshes I have in my game and can't do without. It looks even better in game than it does on the site.

I'm doing a sort through the hoarde (down to 2,000 bodyshop files to sort through! WOOHOO!) and I've decided I cannot live without that bob any longer.  It is so beautiful I canna resist - so I've decided to put some custom content back in my game.  I also blame it on Hecubus, whose wonderful houses I do not want to be without, and Nouk and her beguiling hair.  :D

I wish Berg would make a BergNoukiesims with me.... or just some little BergNoukie's ....  :D