PMBD

Is it just me, or did some verbiage in the EULA get changed?

http://thesims2.ea.com/getcoolstuff/contentmanager_dl.php?languageCode=1

I compared it to my 2004 Homecrafter EULA, and couldn't see a difference - unless you're referring to individual word changes that are slight that I may not have noticed.

It's the content manager. It doesn't create anything.

The Homecrafter EULA that I just downloaded is different.

"Electronic Arts Inc, and its subsidiaries, affiliates and licensors (collectively, "EA") grants you a non- transferable non-exclusive license to download and/or install and use one copy of the software tool ("Tool") and/or materials ("Materials") (collectively the "Tools & Materials") solely for your personal noncommercial use in connection with EA’s products, in accordance with the terms below."

I think it's a poor copy-paste as the Content Manager doesn't make content - just manages it, and the first paragraph talks about using it to make content.  Different legal assistant hacked it together and handed it to the website folks, I think, as it's not even relevant to what the program does.

Well this was from the EULA posted on the main page of PMBD:

EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials. You may not alter any of EA's trademarks or logos, or alter or remove any of EA's trademark or copyright notices included in or with the Tools & Materials or EA's products. Your right to use Tools & Materials is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Tools & Materials. Without limiting the preceding sentence, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, create works from, or sell the Tool, or use the Tools & Materials to further any commercial or unlawful purpose. Without limiting the foregoing, you may not use the Tools & Materials to promote another product or business, or on any site that operates or promotes a server emulator.


And this is from the content manager page:

EA owns all of the right, title and interest in the Software. You may not alter any of EA's trademarks or logos, or alter or remove any of EA’s trademark or copyright notices included in, or with, the Software. Your right to use Software is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Software. Without limitation, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, or sell the Software. Your License is limited to the intellectual property rights in the Software and does not include any rights to other patents, trademarks, copyrights or other intellectual property owned or licensed by EA.

All that stuff about the materials is gone, and the sentence about not using the “Tools & Materials to further any commercial or unlawful purpose” is also gone...

Also from PMBD's front page:

You may include materials created with the Tools & Materials on your personal noncommercial website for the noncommercial benefit of the fan community for EA's products, provided this is beneficial to the product(s) in EA's judgment, and provided that if you do so, you must also post the following notice on your site on the same web page(s) where those materials are located: "This site is not endorsed by or affiliated with Electronic Arts, or its licensors. Trademarks are the property of their respective owners. Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc. and its licensors. All Rights Reserved." You will not represent that your site is endorsed or approved by or affiliated with EA or our licensors or that any other content on your site is endorsed or approved by or affiliated with EA or our licensors.


And from the content manager page:

If you include content created with the Software on your website you must also post the following notice on your site on the same web page(s) where that content is located: "This site is not affiliated with or endorsed by Electronic Arts." You will not represent that your site is approved by or affiliated with EA or that any other content on your site is approved by or affiliated with EA.


Notice that the non commercial part has totally vanished... What's up with that?

It's the content manager. It doesn't create anything.

Don't you find it odd though that the EULA has changed at all though? I thought it was supposed to be the same EULA for everything? And it HAS changed, look at the archive.org page for the tool from when it first came out!

http://web.archive.org/web/20050730001847/http://thesims2.ea.com/getcoolstuff/contentmanager_dl.php

It's the same EULA as on the front page of PMBD but it's distinctly different now!

It also states on the title:

ELECTRONIC ARTS END USER LICENSE
for The Sims™ Custom Content Tools

So the Content Manager might not create anything, but the title clearly states that it's for all Custom Content Tools.

Interesting, but doesn't signify anything, other than that it is more relevant to the content managy thingy.

Perhaps the Content Manager is not considered a Custom Content Tool, but only a User Tool. Whatever.

There is nothing to be worried about. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

TSR seems interested in the changes, as well.  From their newsletter:

The Newsletter? Has it come out? I haven't gotten mine yet. Hmph. Thanks for posting that though. Most curious.

It's hard to understand the syntax of that TSR message.  But if I'm reading it correctly, it means game over.  I guess EA has caved to TSR.

ETA: And the fact that TSR knows in advance of anyone else that further changes are being made to the EULA doesn't look so good either. :(

They had a rep at Bon Voyage Preview. Did you think Steve And EA officials could of had a nice little chat about the Eula and TSR, and custom content and all?

Well as soon as they officially support paysites, I'm finding another game to play. Sorry to say but it's true.

Interestingly enough, the fansite kit EULA has also been changed to match the one for the Custom Content Manager thingo.

http://thesims2.ea.com/community/approval_fansitekit.php

Interesting Josh, safe to assume TSR is getting more information than the rest of us or do you guys really stalk to EULA pages?  :P

Either way, regardless of the outcome, I'm glad we're getting some clarification...though I can see things like this happening and then still allowing filesharing...

I have no idea how you know my first name, but OK. :P (I'm sure I know you from somewhere but the fact that most people have different nicks here makes it hard to tell.) Then again anyone who emails me gets a first name and everyone at N99 knows it so it's not exactly secret.

Someone at the Sims 2 Community thread that recently exploded in a flurry of activity posted that link saying it was the old EULA still this morning and I clicked it and it wasn't, so assuming that person is correct, it's changed. :)

I'm also assuming that it changed several hours ago given that it's 8:15 PM in California right now and I don't think that EAxis works that late. :)

I'm sure the file sharing will continue, but my assumption is that it will go more underground. Of course maybe that assumption is wrong. I don't really care either way. :) I'm just glad to have some bloody clarification.

*shakes head* if they're really going to put that one on everything then the community will be wrecked. Paysites (especially TSR) will find themselves a new position of power and, though I really really HATE it when people cry doom, I can think of a thousand ways they could harrass most free creators to either join their ranks or cease to share.

I'll wait and see for now, though.

I will say that it is interesting when you watch and see who's registering at PMBD to see what the reaction on our forum is.  I have seen some very interesting ones, same as at S2C.

Yeah, I do remember reading over that comment. I can cannot give you any clarification on this though, I was never assed to look at the fansite bits. However, it is a possibility it was changed...but it's also a large possibility that  the said person is an idiot.

Regardless of EA's stance on the paysite situation I really cannot see them ruling out filesharing publicly too...I mean it'll be frowned upon by those in the community but I'm sure this issue won't be touched until another multi-month debate in the community. :)

It's a pity; certainly now the whole non-commercial issue has dropped. I don't think this is good, but hey: their stuff, their decision.

I'll not pretend I like this, but I prefer in any case this further clarification instead of the usual fog.

The word noncommercial was taken out here folks:
hxxx://thesims2.ea.com/community/approval_fansitekit.php


EA TOOLS END USER LICENSE

ELECTRONIC ARTS END USER LICENSE for The Sims™ Custom Content Tools



Electronic Arts Inc. ("EA") grants you a non- transferable non-exclusive license to download and/or install and use one copy of the software tool and related data (the "Software") for the sole purpose of creating content for use in EA's The Sims? family of games, in accordance with the terms below.

EA owns all of the right, title and interest in the Software. You may not alter any of EA's trademarks or logos, or alter or remove any of EA's trademark or copyright notices included in, or with, the Software. Your right to use Software is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Software. Without limitation, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, or sell the Software. Your License is limited to the intellectual property rights in the Software and does not include any rights to other patents, trademarks, copyrights or other intellectual property owned or licensed by EA.

If you include content created with the Software on your website you must also post the following notice on your site on the same web page(s) where that content is located: "This site is not affiliated with or endorsed by Electronic Arts." You will not represent that your site is approved by or affiliated with EA or that any other content on your site is approved by or affiliated with EA.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. EA SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY WARRANTIES OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, MERCHANTABILITY AND NONINFRINGEMENT.

ANY USE YOU CHOOSE TO MAKE OF THIS SOFTWARE IS UNDERTAKEN BY YOU ENTIRELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. EA DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THIS SOFTWARE WILL NOT CAUSE DAMAGE TO YOUR COMPUTER SYSTEM, NETWORK, OTHER SOFTWARE OR TECHNOLOGY.

EA WILL NOT PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR THIS SOFTWARE. CUSTOMER SUPPORT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ANSWER INQUIRIES ABOUT THE SOFTWARE.

IN NO EVENT SHALL EA BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE OR OTHER DAMAGES WHATSOEVER, ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THIS LICENSE EVEN IF EA HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

EA RESERVES THE RIGHT TO DISCONTINUE THE AVAILABILITY OF THIS SOFTWARE, OR MODIFY THE SOFTWARE, AT ANY TIME, WITHOUT OBLIGATION TO ANYONE.

At EA's request, you agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless EA from all liabilities, claims and expenses, including attorneys' fees, arising from any breach of this License by you and/or your use or misuse of the Software.

EA may make the Software available at its site(s) located in the United States and/or Canada and/or the European Union. You are solely responsible for knowing and complying with all federal, state, and local laws that may apply to your use of Software in your own locale. By downloading any Software, you warrant that you are not located in any country, or exporting the Software to any person or place, to which the United States and/or Canada and/or European Union or its member countries has embargoed goods.

EA may revoke or terminate this license at any time, for any reason or no reason, in its sole discretion. Upon termination, you must destroy the Software. This License is governed by United States Copyright and California law (without regard to conflicts or choice of law provisions), and is the entire agreement between EA and you regarding the Software

Please click "Accept" if you agree to the above terms, or "Decline" to discontinue. If you decline, you may not use the Software.

[ Agree ] - [ Decline ]

Creating Fansites
We love it when fans create personal websites devoted to The Sims 2, but any and all use of our assets is strictly subject to the terms of our Fansite and End User Tool License, without exception.


Im sorry if this was already posted, Im reading the thread at S2C.

...yes, that's what the few posts before you have been discussing.  :wink:

Hi, folks.  I'm feeling much better now and back.  Sorry, I would have posted sooner, but once I saw the hype, I had to go check it all out before I posted.  And then I couldn't get on here.

Well it looks like EA is changing ALL their EULAs one at a time, folks.  Which actually doesn't surprise me.

From all the activity and posting I've been seeing on S2C and MTS2, and such, it looks like the other half of the community is in full denial.  Don't want to accept the truth...Oh well...I predicted as much...

Anyhoo...I don't suppose this means if I ask nicely y'all will take my files down off the booty?

MIKEY!!!
"Be normal, and the crowd will accept you. Be deranged, and they will make you their leader."

Nope, pretty sure it doesn't. :D

You will have to ask Pescado, Mikey.  He removes from the booty.  But, don't hold your breath.

Well, no offense, but you know I have to now ask;

Doesn't that make the folks here not much more than 'thieves'?

MIKEY!!!
"We all have friends that won't let their pasts go. They always tell the same story about their life. 'Remember when I was six and...' And you have to stop them. 'Hey, hey, hey. I want you to know something. We're all really sorry that when you were in Troop 182, the scoutmaster rubbed your butt at the overnight jamboree. But what are you, like thirty now? It's time to climb down off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!"

Mikey - I have had a sinus headache for 2 days now.  I don't have the patience for name calling.  PM Pescado.  I am not a thief.  I don't have files from the booty anyway.  I actually come here for the atmosphere.  

If the only reason you are coming here is to insult and to get your files removed, ask the dread pirate himself.  It is his site, and he makes the rules.  Period.

edit: Because I can't fucking spell   sheesh!

Mikey, EA spoke out for paysites...not against filesharing. Therefore, no stealing here.

AW, c'mon.  I thought you knew me better.  You are reading to literal and too personally.  Or maybe I should just post literally...anyway, in the hopes of sparing feelings that need not be affected;

Would that not make the folks running this site, the booty, and the folks downloading off of the booty naught more than thieves?

It's not name calling, it is the next logical question from my viewpoint, in the succession of questions to be asked...



Gee, how did I know that was coming...

EDIT:  Because I can't fuckin' spell either!!!

MIKEY!!!

Mikey they had the prime opportunity to say no file sharing and they didn't.

I don't see it as condoning paysites or denouncing filesharing or doing anything but making sure the EA weinerdogs are well out of any fight about it.  It's just ironic that the previous EULAs (for these two things that have changed EULAs) meant nothing before but everything now.  It sounds like an admission of guilt or at least acknowledgement of violating those EULAs in the past.

But quite possibly any EULA is going to be the least of a pay for content site's worries - for me this has always been a consumer issue rather than a legal issue.  It's quite possible that customers will now very much expect more from paysites in regards to customer service than ever before.  People are much more aware of the shenanigans some sites get up to, so the true butthurt may just be beginning there, likely expanding into site vs. site if everyone's going to get deadly serious about violating each other's terms of use and such.  The slavering reactions from pro-pay posters I saw over at Sc2 were a real turn-off even if I weren't pro-free, and like the attacks on MST2 finances, may very well drive people to support a freesite more than ever.

I think paysites may have had it better when they just had to suffer people bitching about them in forums and offering them ways to go free.  *shrug*

Okay.  Shot in the dark here...but I'm getting the feeling that no one went over to the NeptuneSuzy thread and read my post(s) there?

I'm feeling under appreciated.  I may cry, even...

MIKEY!!!
"If yer not 1st. Yer last"

Sorry, Mikey.  I just don't have the inclination to go to every thread to see if you've posted in it.

"It's just ironic that the previous EULAs (for these two things that have changed EULAs) meant nothing before but everything now."

Yes, funny how that works out.

OK.

Sorry MIKEY, I actually don't think this changed EULA is a total give to the paysites (I'll have to read it another 5 or 6 times to be sure), although I will admit it's a bit easier on them than the last. It still says that you can't sell the software, and that you do not have rights over EA's copyrights (ahem, code and the like, for example). Plus, they haven't come out against filesharing either, so we're still not thieves, I'm afraid. Reads to me more like they are unwilling to pick either side, and so are coasting through the middle in the hopes of not having to deal with any of it.

Mikey dear please quit whining, it is really unbecoming.

Awwwww...I was only teasin'...LOL

OK as long as it was just teasing. BUT with your new Av, I find it hard to believe it was only teasing. LMAO

Exactly, Mando.  I agree with you.  The "SOFTWARE" cannot be resold, etc...But it specifically cites the software and content are 2 separate entities.  Thus you can sell the game, the tools, or reverse-engineer either, etc...but you can do what you will with the custom content made with the tools.

I also agree that they have not directly come out against file-sharing, however I do believe that your own folks said the only reason that the booty existed was because paysites were illegal and wrong.  That has changed now.

And I agree that EA took that stand for a reason.  But the reason was money.  They don't want the full wrath of either side affecting their salaries and bonuses.


EDIT: BTG, I hope no one takes offense at my little pirate avatar.  I just thought it was funny and wanted to share it...

I see here and on SC2 some things that are not understood.

1.Paysites should not be dancing yet, especially small sites. The US Copyright office told me (sorry not on my main computer where the email is but i posted it in another thread in the forum). That the Copyright holder EA, can only make changes as the paysite files are considered deriviatives, and issue licenses. Sims 2 is a franchised, trademarked. They are more that likely going to sell franchise rights to TSR.In other words $$$$$$ will be exchanged, subscriptions and all will be higher. Small sites that dont have the $$$$$ for the license will be illegal.

2. Paysite owners cannot copyright their package files. They are not copyrightable once they are in a package file.

3. Since EA is just changing the rules now, any file sharing till we see the final announcement from them is not illegal. It would not stand in court.  Parysites are working with a deriviative, it is not the same as the music or movie or software industries that hold the original copyright all along.

Lastly not everything has been disclosed. It may not be a total victory for Paysites. From TSR wording, Im sure there will be official posting explaining in detail more or less everything. And EA could do a partial victory for both sides.

I don't but you might get called whiny again. LOL

I got a joke for you before I go to bed...

Why do pirates wear such big fuckin' hats?


So when it's cold they can pull it down over their buccaneers!

Mikey, do not quite your day job. A comedian you are not. LOL

Actually you will note though that it does still say that you don't have any rights over EA's copyrights. Most Sims CC does contain some (or a lot) of EA's copyrighted work. Just something to think about.

I don't consider this EULA change a gigantic give to paysites. I'm with you in that I agree that it's simply a way to not have to take a side (thus not alienating anyone and not have to risk losing potential profits).

I still believe that paysites are wrong and shouldn't be supported by the community at large, no matter how EA is deciding to waffle about on the issue. While this EULA doesn't explicitly say that paysites are wrong, it also isn't clear from it that they are right either (lack of clarity as per usual from EA :wink: ). As well, Pescado only hosts the booty because it causes butthurt on a semi-massive scale and not for any moral reasons (although others here, as individuals, have their own reasons for supporting it, of course).

You know, all I think it does is put Free and Pay on equal footing now.  Both are within their 'rights' to do as they wish.  Now, although it does not say anything against file-sharing, if folks REALLY want harmony and respect back into the community, the wishes of both need to be respected.

You watch.  If this is the status quo now...

People need a fight to give meaning to their 'cause'.  So, if this is the status quo, it will go back to what it was a few years back, except this time with more vigor, and it will be free AND pay (albeit it may be reluctantly) against file sharing.  The ego cannot be suppressed indefinitely.

So ultimately the question, as cliche as it sounds, is "Why can we not all get along?"

When has that stopped creators before?  Have they forked over thousands for the 3DS Max they use or the pricey models they use?  Small sites will get around it and EA probably wouldn't waste the time trying to chase down their money anyway.  It may cost them just as much to do so.

Creators will pirate then call us pirates for doing the exact same thing, save on a smaller level and the world will exist much like it does now.  



Right, but I am not sure they need copyright to be able to charge, and to be able to take legal action for losing money to filesharing sites.  



TSR seems to think it will be a total victory for them.  We'll just have to see though.  I would hate to think they are right, but WTF EA?!  I can't believe they made the changes they already have.  I may be writing EA a very strongly worded letter.

I agree with those who have said EA did this to kind of remove themselves from this battle, thereby muddying the waters even more.

However, if they take out the non-commercial part in Bodyshop and other relevant TS2 tools, they're fucking stupid, pardon my french..

But by allowing paysites to continue, they are basically saying "Hey! We promote pay content, too!  Go spend money at TSR and pay for some crappy recolours of OTHER paysite meshes!"  Also saying it's okay for bitches like Peggy to keep selling her fucked up meshes, and for other sites to sell their misrepresented shit.

Will they fix broken items?  Will they force paysites to give refuns?  Will they regulate paysite content?

But TSR and other paysites should keep their goodies in their pants for now, we're not thieves.  EA has not said filesharing is illegal so PMBD lives on, saving people from horrors like TSR, PeggySims, etc.

ETA:
But I can't believe if they're going to change the EULA to help along sites like TSR.  TSR doesn't even regulate their pay content, what does that say?  Seriously, nobody checks FA content so it can be broken, misrepresented, hideous, they don't care.  If it is by an FA, it doens't need to be checked.  But that is what people are paying for!  Ridiculous.

TSR is disgusting, and always will be.

SOME RUM, PLEASE!  SOMEBODY!  WE NEED SOME RUM OVER HERE!!!

LOL.

Folks, I must hit the sack.  Work comes early for me and I must earn my living.  See y'all tomorrow evening.

With like,
MIKEY!!!

Sherry, I think this is an issue and have felt this strongly that needs to be taken to the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) from the beginning.

As far as suing, a court would look at when EA made the change to the Eula. You see, they just changed their agreement. You see the court would hold to when these changes were made not before.

also to sue a lot of different folks in different countries takes lots of money. The recording revuenes make TSR look small, the recording industry had the capitol.  If they want to sue, we have the EFF to petition to for help they have a US location and an EU one in Switzerland.

The EULA has always been a moot point for me, and so is an irrelevant argument with me. I still think paysites are wrong, mostly due to the perceived greed and egotism involved.  If someone feels the absolute need to open their own website, then pony up, or ask others to help.  Making it a requirement smacks of the overestimation of your own self-worth.  Hell, if you really want to make a profit, burn your crap to CDs and sell it on Ebay.
Given that approximately 95% of the gaming communities agree that paysites are unacceptable, we certainly aren't in the minority, and I really doubt filesharing will go away.

Fuck the EULA. That is just EAxis copping out. Paysites are parasites on the entire gaming community. Please give me a precedent where they are officially allowed and condoned.
Mikey is just another money grubbing thief trying to make a living off of other peoples work.
I think the booty should stay till file sharing is proven wrong.
Please correct me if I have gotten any of this wrong.

Ah. but harmony and respect is not anything I personally value. MOAR FIGHT is what I value, so an attempt to influence me by pleas for "harmony" and offers of "respect" fall on deaf ears. Some have accused me of being just plain deaf, period.

What I am getting from all this is that someone at EA has a good/terrible sense of humour.  They knew exactly what to do to get everyone running about like headless flies again.   I expect they're reading all this and chortling.   And still nothing is really any clearer. :)

I am not a Pirate.. I don't visit the booty and I have no interest in pay files. I'm not even really sure about how I feel about the booty. But this is one of the times where I line up with you guys, this is bad.. however.. It is not terminal.

I'm not here under my regular username. I'm a creator on one of the free sites and I've been making free content for something like two years now. I make free content because I don't beleive I should charge for my stuff. The site I'm on doesn't even have a donation button. There are tons of creators out there like me and Judfer and Calaily who do it because we love it and because we enjoy sharing with others. And we're not going away just because paysites are around.

What I'm saying to you is, I know you guys are not going anywhere.. and I know that the free sites are not going anywhere either. We make stuff because we have fun doing it and we will keep doing just that.

And Mikey dear? On an equal footing. Not even slightly. We will be on an equal footing when you don't hide behind excuses to charge for your stuff for a game that's supposed to be a hobby in the first place.

I got a question:

Where do you guys draw the line now?

I mean, as it seems, pay sites have been legalized. So, the "free pay stuff" does not work anymore.

If you now focus on filesharing, what criteria do you use? Is any site, that does not allow filesharing, an enemy? Including free sites like mine, which does strictly prohibit any direkt filesharing or upload on third party sites, if you do not use our creations for your own creations like houses?

As someone did post in another thread, the single numenor donation item was uploaded to the booty, as you could not make differences between "good" and "bad" pay content.

So, in future, you have to copy every single object, that is not allowed to be fileshared?

This is not meant as a kind of harrassment or something like this, i'm just deeply curious, how you will define your "guidelines" now.

Solander

But it does - this EULA hasn't outlawed filesharing - they still haven't taken that away.  So pay stuff still will be uploaded.



As long as it's free there's really no point in uploading it elsewhere - we can all come to your site and download it at any time.  The site doesn't require that all content must be a freeforall - just that it should be free.

....Interesting.

There will probably be some more developments into this further in the week, so watch out for those, but as it stands there is no mention of file sharing or free sites in general. If they adress that, then that changes a lot of things....

At the moment I think EA are just acting as the er 'middle man' and not getting involved in all of it. Although I must admit I would never have thought they would give any clear opinion on this....but it still leaves a lot of grey areas.

Solander, you ask a lot of good questions and in all honesty I dont know. File sharing in my view is just freely exchanging files that are unavailable. So no, that would not mean the booty would start to contain files from sites that are not file share friendly.

And btw, I saw at s2c the other day that it was your birthday, so happy belated birthday :)

My personal view on your policies there is that they're absurd, and ultimately, the only reason I don't is because you haven't made it worth the bother to do so. Ultimately, if you were to, say, go down for an extended period of time, or take your toys and go home like some people have, people would share your files anyway. But since you are not a paysite, there is no particular reason why I would aim to relieve you of your bandwidth burden. It just wouldn't be funny enough.

Seriously: Consider a less fascistic policy. It'll help with that blood pressure problem of yours. It's not like you make money off it. Given that your policy can only function under voluntary compliance, seeing as you have no ability to actually enforce it, you'll make yourself look less silly if you don't try to even make a policy. Like the official MATY policy is "Meh."

Why do I even try being nice?  Geez.  Please provide proof of the " money grubbing".  I am not going over this subject again.  There are already far too many bruises left on the dead horse.





Angha, dear.  Show me the 'excuses', please.  And you may as well pull out your proof too.  I'm not going over it again.  You can go back and read my reasoning for why we did what we did yourself.


Given that approximately 95% of the gaming communities agree that paysites are unacceptable, we certainly aren't in the minority, and I really doubt filesharing will go away.

Did you want to borrow my calculator?  LOL.  You math is a wee bit off...

In Soviet Russia, dead horse beats YOU!

I will mention here that I don't fileshare. The people who know me are aware that I'm borderline obsessive about not doing so. The thing is, it's not just a question of something being legal or not legal, and it never has been.. It comes down to this...

We all pay a fortune for our games. In Australia I pay 50 bucks for each ep plus an extra forty bucks if we really want the Prima Games. So that means that we've all spent a bloody fortune before we go anywhere near a paysite.

And I may get jumped on when I say this, but it was kinda ok when paysites were charging 5 bucks a month... You could kinda justify it in a time where people paid 60 and even a Hundred bucks a month for their hosting. But these days the average cost of bandwidth has gone way down, but the amount paysites are charging has gone through the roof.

And in tandem with this, they have developed a sense of entitlement where they beleive it's ok for them to charge a fortune for their often crappy content. And their prices have gone up to an unreasonable point. It isn't fair or ok on the guys here who do pay for content to be paying 14 bucks a month for hair that doesn't work properly in game and that has gaps at the neck. (I note that I refuse to spend a cent at all)

There has to be a reasonable limit if you're charging at all..

But this ignores the fact that unless you're one of the top 5 percent of sites, you shouldn't be paying more than 10-15 bucks a month for your hosting, so you shouldn't need to charge in the first place. If you can't afford 5-15 bucks a month to run a site, you shouldn't be running one. And I am saying this as someone who paid for her own hosting out of her own pocket back when she was a siteowner.

The bottom line is, there is no financial reason to charge and no justification to do so in terms of quality.. Not to mention hundreds of paysites trying to milk thousands of dollars out of the punters out there is plain wrong.

The legal argument is fairly irrelevant and has been all along..  Paysites are just plain wrong and have been all along.

Only one who can provide proof is you, and you're not going to supply anything that makes you look bad are you  :wink:



You still haven't answered my questions about your site, and doubt you ever will - such as whether you have ever been fileshare friendly. I'm sure you'll tell me you've already answered/you're sick again, must go/ignore this post.  I haven't seen any supreme reasoning that makes me think any differently about you or your site.  I've seen some nonsensical stuff, and some pigheaded behaviour, but no reasoning that would convince me.

Mikey I've read all about why you state you went pay.. I was actually on your groups about three or four years ago. And I also know damn well that you ran a free Sims 1 site for a really bloody long time when your bandwidth likely would have been far higher than it is now. So the excuse of keeping it away from kiddies does not hold water for me considering you were a free site for that length of time. If it was that much of a concern, you would have been a paysite from the beginning. Or did you stay a freesite just so you could have an excuse to beat up that Donna woman for doing the wrong things with your lovebeds?

I am well aware that both Insim and MTS run free adult sites successfully and fairly successfully and manage to keep the kids out. They just keep it well out of sight so you can't find it unless you know where to look.. plus a kid would be fairly easy to spot from their immature behavior. And if they can do so, there's no reason on the face of the planet why you can't either. You just want people to pay you, and use the kids thing as an excuse.

I can express my personal point of view. My concern is about 1) legality and 2) community spirit.

1) Franchising or other kind of license is ok to me. I don't like it, but it satisfies my personal demand of legal stance.
In short, if the EULA does no more differentiate between commercial and non-commercial, paysites are ok with their requests.

2) I stand my ground, instead, about the commercialization of fanbase. A paysite (user-created content) is not comparable to an H&M, or Aspyr, or any other similar licensor - which is clearly economically separated by the fan community since its birth.
The fact paysites exploit the community is exactly the same, and the same is my ethical/moral/whatever opinion about them.

In conclusion, to me, paysites did the right (and legal) move. I'm sincerely glad to see that at last they did something factual and logical: the continuous and pointless whining was disheartening.
However, I'll continue to consider them the scum. Legal scum, but scum anyway, because of ethical implications.

I don't care about filesharing of pay stuff, just like I didn't care before: my strictly personal reasons why.
I will continue, however, to be a free creator and to support the community of free creators, since pay creators are not part of the same community, exactly like before.

Ummm...I did answer...In the NeptuneSuzy thread.  I am not answering the same question multiple times anymore...LOL


Actually, it is innocent until proven guilty, so the burden of proof is on you folks.  Ante up.



This statement;


And the following statement;


...are incompatible.

And from what Pestado says, there is no further reason for me to be here (other than my entertainment and amusement), as he has just stated he has no point to make, or moral belief on this issue.  He is just doing  this to be an ass.

MIKEY!!!

P.S.  I have to go to work now, so it'll be safe for you to bash me for 10 or 12 hrs, Pescado.  LOL

That means a lot coming from a Nation State that had to line up for ass-wipe for decades...

Yes, and...?



That is no news. Everyone here knows that already.

Well since they EULA has been changed and apparently paysites aren't not allowed any more they don't have to twist their words and can call a spade a spade. With this in mind I wonder if they'll actually admit to being pay and start advertising their items as pay items rather than donation items.

Because personally if I donate to something it gives me warm fuzzies, whereas if I pay for it I expect consumer rights if the thing is not fit for use. And if nothing else I think using the correct term for the transaction might give some pause for thought.

I'm a german, i have to be fascistic ;)

No, to be serious:

In my definition, a community is a balance of GIVE and TAKE. If you abstract anything around it, everyone GIVES and TAKES the same amount, that's the perfect vision of a real friendly and stable community.

I (or we at Pimp my Sims as creators) GIVE creations to this community. 100% free and if you take our traffic into consideration, lots of people seem to like, what we are doing. And we TAKE (reserve) the right to set up some (in my eyes quite user friendly) terms of use, which you call fascistic, for giving this stuff to the community.

But as we are part of this "oh so good" community, the GIVE and TAKE thing does also apply to our visitors as other part of the community, the players. If anyone thinks, that he likes, what we are doing, and decides to TAKE our stuff, he has to GIVE (accept) our conditions.

This is a fair deal. We GIVE and TAKE, any Sims 2 player TAKES and GIVES. If one site think that he/she GETS LESS, than he/she GIVES, than noone is forced to TAKE and therefore, not to GIVE.

That's it.

If one side decides not to GIVE after TAKING, it is breaking that fundamental rule of any working community in my eyes.

That does not apply, if i should decide to close Pimp my Sims.com, as I would not GIVE anymore, so nobody else would be forced to GIVE, too. But as long as WE do GIVE and TAKE, anyone else has to do so the same. But as long as we GIVE, i also reserve the right for us to TAKE.


Edit:



I just realized, what you did post. It would not be funny enough to upload our stuff? That's, why you are doing it? If yes, you can feel really lucky for having so many really convinced supporters, fighting against paysites to make you feel better when uploading their stuff.

A somewhat related question was posted on another forum (S2c).  No one could really find another community with pay files.  I would like to know if anyone here knows of other gaming communities that have this same issue with pay sites?  Is the Sims community the only one dealing with this?

Ha, that'll be the day. They won't have to but they will continue to do so. Under this chicken shit EULA the paysites can and will continue professing they are alike any other 'fansite'. They won't openly admit to being pay in any shape or form. The term 'donation' has a softer appeal to the sheepish masses.  However, these greedy sons of EA whores fansites that have established themselves as a business/fansite (ie. TSR, Peggys, etc) will not go long without competing against one another more fiercely than ever.

Now that it's somewhat nuetralized under this shitty new EULA the paysites will be more openly aggressive in their retail tactics to draw in new customers. Fueled by a misplaced sense of justice they will gladly compete against each other for the mighty dollar. Afterall, why not? EA games is seemingly backing them up. That bullshit of a promo regarding 'community' that TSR & co. pulled a while ago is going to be chucked to hell in a heartbeat. Paysites are not friends with one another; they are competitors. Can't wait to see who throws down the gauntlet first against the others.

As for the new EULA and my own personal thoughts on it -- not surprising. I'd be an idiot to not figure a corporation hellbent on milking every last dime from it's own customers to not be above supporting the brown-nosing, bare-backing dog that brings them small bones with their own business sites. TSR and Co. advertise the game in a way that makes people want to go out and buy more expansions or stuff packs. Sites alike this one and SFV do not exactly do a good job of promoting the game in a nice mannerism. Stupid, I know, but you all should know that EA Games has never been a fan of file-sharing. Never. This EULA of theirs only further confirms my suspicions that paysites & EA Games wallets go hand in hand. It's not once been about community in their eyes but who gets the dollar.

One more thing about this idiocy -- I don't give a rat's fucking ass about the EULA. Never have nor never will. Those paysite files are paid for fair and square. Therefore it makes it the sole property of the owner whom shelled out the cash to do what they will with it. Should I donate to a handful of paysite assholes to get a few files you can bet I'll willingly share the files openly with whoever or on whatever site I please. Why AnneBonny, why, the sheepish wonders of the world question and whine aloud? Simply because it's my pack of gum and I'll fucking give it to my friends/family if I  choose too; I paid for it.  You put it up for sale and I bought it. Mine not yours.  STFU PWNT!

Hey Solander

I actually come from another free site, and I have a slightly different view from these guys.. When I use other people's content, and I have in the past, I am very careful to talk anyone who's content I use. The vast majority of the creative community out there thinks like me, and that's just because with it being a hobby, it's no use if we don't respect the creative endevours of others..

So while I might yell at paysite owners like Mikey because I think he has no integrity and does not tell the truth, I respect you and I for one would never trash your stuff, and I'm not the only one..

Angha Tyl

This didn't apply to pay sites in specific. It was more a general posting regarding respect within a community. And the "threat" to focus on "filesharing is the king, attack anyone, that does not allow it". If this would be the case and anything of our content would be uploaded to the booty, i would be really, really pissed. As this would show, that it's not a community thing but a personal war against anyone, that does not like to accept the rules of a single group within that community.

Solander, this is "Paysites must be destroyed" and not "Filesharing is good" Doesn't that answer your question?

Solander

What I have noticed about these guys, and I've been watching this board for six months before I decided to join, is that they're very careful to leave free sites well alone. Hecubus has even yelled about it on more than one occasion. The way that I interprit it is more that they seem to have decided that if the paysites have decided to withdraw from community spirit that they then will not treat them with any respect in return..

So this is not a war against people wanting to have some control over their files so much as a war against people who turn a hobby into a business..

Angha

Angha Tyl, in this case your view arn´t  different than mine. Im also a creator, (featured and moomoo awarded at mts). People here arn´t created in the total same shape.

It does. But if i do read phrases like "it's just not funny enough" as reason, why our stuff is not also uploaded to the booty, i do ask myself, what saves me from being the next, if someone gets bored and is looking for 2nd class fun.

Scribble, so you know what I mean about the respect thing? It just comes from the place that if it's my hobby, I want to feel like it's a nice place to be and that I'm doing the right thing by those around me..  I beleive in the respect thing or my hobby isn't worth doing.



Solander I think technically there's never a hundred percent ironclad guaruntee that it would never happen, because there are a whole variety of people in the community, and some on the exchange who have interesting morals indeed.. however..

It took something like three years and a massive argument on MTS to bring the community to the point where Pescado took this step. People had to be really annoyed with the paysites to make them want to do this, they didn't do it just because they felt like sharing the files. They did it because they were angry at hurt at a specific bit of the community.

I don't see you generating that kind of ire just from being concerned with your files.. I've seen HP go through the same concern on here, and she seems to have settled in knowing that these guys admire and respect her. These guys actually admire and respect free creators a great deal.. And anyone who is actively involved in the community will generally respect someone who goes out their way to share their stuff just because they love the hobby and it's the right thing to do..

And I have also seen these guys for one, get really angry when they've seen people share free files from people like Enyela.. These guys are actually the last people who will do the wrong thing by the free creators.

What I'm saying is, if you're sharing your files for free and you're a good creator, most people will want to look after you just because it feels like the right thing to do.

Angha

*edited to fix double post cos it was too late to delete it*

Angha Tyl, I think excactly the same way as you do.

I posted this in another thread, but thought I'd also place my views in this one...





I'm not going to go back and quote everything I want to comment on, but I will this one because I agree with it. I very much agree



In the grand scheme of things, this is where I stand. I find it appalling that paysites take a hobby, and some make a living off of it, really selling nothing tangible. This is as bad as my kid begging me for Runscape money and expecting that I pay for that Runescape money with real money. When I purchase something, I want to see it, be able to hold it on my hand and know that it is real. I also expect when I purchase something to get customer service, not a run around if there is a problem or a "tough luck. we don't guarantee anything." You do me like that and you are going to get burned in real life. I'm not very nice when I get mad. I can be a real bitch and I know how to get a refund, I usually don't loose either.


Mikey, I will agree that Cala's figures are off a bit. I'd say 50% know for sure that paysites are the biggest scam that ever hit a video game, 20% have their heads up a paysite owner's ass and thinks that it is OK, and the other 30% simply are not informed and are clueless. I know a few short months ago, I was one of that 30%. I had no idea that there was free CC. I thought I had to pay for it, unless you got it off the exchange or MTS2.

See, I am usually a console gamer, and still am in a big way. We have 2 of the major 3 consoles right now. Sims 2 is the first PC game I have had in quite a few years, and I only got that this past Christmas (now I have all the expansions and stuffs packs). I have never, ever in my gaming experience thought about paying for custom content until I hit the Sims. I know other games provide it, but the logic of paying for pixels just escapes me when I now know that there are free sites out there and the Booty. I honestly think that the 30% lost in this argument would side with that reasoning vs. the Paysite reasoning.


and one last comment, well really a question because maybe I am not understanding Solander. Solander, why would anyone need to file share something that is already shared, for free on a free site? That makes not sense. Am I understanding your statement?

:D Scribble, ah thank you.. I feel like less of a voice in the wilderness.. In some of the yelling in the last few months I'd started to think that I was an out of place moderate.

it's the definition of filesharing in combination with the strictness of you guys, that disturbs me.

As i have read and seen, the donation gift, which is offered by numenor, is included in the booty just for being pay. despite the really, really HUGE amount of work, that he donated to the community and the fact, that everyone can choose, how much he would like to donate on his site.

As someone did post, it's because it is not free available to all and therefor has to be included in the botty. A shame in my eyes, but it follows the logic behind it.

If some people now do focus on "nobody did say, we are not allowed to fileshare" and if this new rule is exactly as strict as the old, this means, that everyone, that does not allow filesharing (and i HATE filesharing for the reasons pointed out above) becomes a candidate for the booty.

Uhm, I think you are talking about numbers within the TS2 community, which is all very well, but the original estimates were for the entire gaming community. See, there are other games than Sims out there ;)

*ducks before BTG takes a swing at her*

Generally, Solander and everyone else being confused about what we stand for, PMBD has a goal, but the reasoning varies a great deal from person to person. Legal, moral, "we just want booty"... There's all kinds here.

Pescado being Pescado shouldn't concern you so much. He's just covering his own ass so he won't get a reputation of trying to do the right thing. Even if he should get bored and look for new people to bug, free sites simply aren't worth the effort as everything is already out in the open and he wouldn't actually be likely to get the attention he'd want from his efforts. He'd likely just find a new cause to annoy people with instead.

OK, OK so I was posting before I had enough coffee in me. :lol:

Please don't make me have to spank you. You have to be careful with this, you never know when I might be on that side of the water. ;)



I'd never take a swing at you... silly. LOL

I'm too lazy to go back and quote everything.

I agree that EA did this because they believe it will remove them from the fight and they don't want to alienate either side. Meh, big surprise. It's not an endorsement of paysites or a condemnation of file-sharing. In all honesty, I've never thought involving them was a great idea. This is their statement, they don't care. They don't want to clarify, they want to ride the fence. I can't imagine that they'll make a marketing deal with TSR. Can you imagine the grief that the borked items and bannings would make for them? I don't think they're that stupid, but it's possible.

PMBD predates the S2C discussions, and quiet file-sharing has been around for even longer. The aggressive in-your-face stance brought things out in the open, thus pushing Delphy and S2C to take the stand they have. I'm sure the anti-Delphy commandos had a part in that too.

There is nothing stopping the sharing of freely available files but respect. It is perfectly legal to do so, but many of us think it is wrong and don't do it.

I see this differently from most, if not all, of you.  If EA has changed its EULA specifically not to rule out paysites--which seems to have been their intent--then I feel I have to abide by the new EULA.  I don't and never have considered it a moral issue, but instead a legal one, and at least that portion of the dispute seems to be settled.  I am sorry this has happened, for reasons already posted--it will give TSR (who I'm sure has managed to get some kind of exclusive agreement from EA) much more power and incentive to go about its shitty way.   :cry:   That's what's going to ruin the game, not the small average paysite.

And as for filesharing, I think it's a similar issue to downloading bootlegged MP3's off sites like Hype Machine.  Or photocopying a book so that you don't have to buy another copy.  Have I done these things?  Of course I have.  But I have a hard time justifying it to myself.

Solander, I have enormous respect for you and the way you're running your site.  If you haven't realized this already, Pescado is always an outlier.  Don't pay him any mind.

dietofworms everyone is going to have to decide for themselves what kind of a fight this was for them, and make their decisions about their own game play based on those decisions. I for one won't fault you a bit if you go back to paying for content, if that is what you decide is right for you. Each one of us has our own reasons for fighting this battle, personally until EA says file sharing is illegal or Pes tells me to stop, I will keep on doing what I do. I wish you good luck in whatever you choose to do.

Thank you :)

But maybe i should explain, why i pay him lots of mind. As he does represent this forum as well as the booty. It's not Hecubus's site, it's not bigtruckgirl's site, it's Pescado's site, if anyone would be asked. And if he does say something, I can't ignore is without taking notice of it.

He's not an every day angry user, who want's to harrass someone to get some relief.

Edit: Maybe he just want's to harrass someone to get some relief from time to time, but he is definetely not a normal user ;)

Solander - I can assure you that we have many free site creators here and their TOS' are respected.  Freesites are not a target and won't be a target at PMBD.  Pes is just being a smart ass, so you should ignore the whole "funny" comment.  File sharing is for those files which are unavailable to all users.  Files that are held for payment.  Once you buy it, it then becomes yours.  Copyright law even protects this which supercedes any TOS a pay creator may have.  No one here is out to hurt the creators and sites who maintain fully free sites, and TOS will be respected by those of us who support the free community.

Actually, if there was one file I'd take off the booty it would be Numenor's.  He has given far too much for this little insignificant file to even be an issue.  Plus, he is probably one of the nicest and most helpful mods that I have had contact with.  But, I don't make the rules, but in that instance I agree with you.

PS - Yes, I reponded.  :lol:

First of all, I never saw anything in the 'new' EULA that says, Charge for your stuff, it's okay!
And until Ea says that, I don't think anyone should be assuming these changes mean paysites are suddenly legal and a-okay. That's just plain silly. Don't leap on a small alteration in wording and use it as an excuse. Especially since before all the paysite owners spouted the Eula as nonsense to begin with! What fucking hypocrisy! Now it's okay to use it since you beleive it's saying you can charge? Bah. Greedy bints.

And I'll tell you what, all this complaining about the booty and Pescado...well, if you don't like the way he does things, you know that X at the top right corner of the screen? Push it.
He runs this site that allows you to come here and say what you want, he doesn't ban or delete posts he doesn't agree with. You should atleast be thanking him for allowing you all to come here and post freely! *especially since some people can be quite the annoying little buggers*

As for other gaming communities, c'mon! I've been into Morrowind, Oblivion etc...and if someone would have even tried to charge for any of their mods they would have been laughed out of the community!
Never have I seen another gamers community that charges.
Why does that not make some of you people think?
Go to the Elder Scrolls forum and see if you can find serious discontent in that community. You won't. You'll find a handful of people causing shit, but that's normal 12 year olds. You won't find a middle split community.

You want to spout respect? You want to spout togetherness and real community?
Then listen to what these people are saying because you won't find it in the sims because of greed and dollar $igns.
This community split down the middle when someone first figured out they could start a business with this.
The trouble was here LONG before PMBD or SFV.
It was caused by the paysites.
We can't be a real community until the WHOLE community tries. I've seen pirate after pirate sticking their necks out and offering to shell out dough to PAY for BANDWIDTH or help start new free sites.
They are offering out of their own pocket!!!
To give people FREE sites.
And they get turned down.
Now I don't know about any of you, but to me that screams I'm a greedy little fuck! You could set me up right and proper with a site no one has to pay for, but NO! I want money, money, money.
But this is alright? I can't believe people actually think this is NORMAL!!!
The DAY I bought the Sims1 my friend gave me a CD of paysite stuff. I said, what's this? She says, it's stuff from paysites. I said paysites? She says, yeah. Some people actually are greedy enough to charge for this shit.
This woman is in her forties and never even came to forums. And she, a real live, mature! person even thought it was bullshit.
I tell my mom about this stuff and she laughs.
"Charging for pretend furniture?" She asks.
I am so sick and fucking tired of seeing all the pay creators out there whining about losing money because PMBD. Well, ya fucking loophole, you weren't supposed to be making money off it to begin with! Good, I'm glad you're losing money.
Community. Bah.
This is what a community is:
People sharing their knowledge and creations freely.
People helping on another and not expecting anything in return.
Giving gifts that don't require payment. You can't give a gift that costs money! What kind of fucking gift is that? Donators gift is an oxymoron.
Where do you find this real community spirit?
At free sites.
At MTS2.
At SFV.
Here.
What does that say about all you pay people?
You're the reason this place exsists at all! You don't like it? Stop forcing simmers to choose then. Stop telling people who can't afford 39.95 for 6 months access that they aren't worthy of your downloads.
Because THAT is how it makes people feel and THAT is why this community is split.
So fuck you.  :!:

That was a lovely post, my friend.  Paden is gonna be so proud

*takes ry to the Pirate's Cove, opens the rum and gets knee-walking stumbling stupid drunk for her 'shut the fuck up'*

Seriously.  The day that they officially support paysites, is the day that I uninstall all of my Sims games and never buy another piece of EA crap.

Hold up, people. Please explain to me how the EULA for the Custom Content Browser has anything to do with this issue?

1. The EULA that I agreed to when I installed Seasons Body Shop is still valid, I believe. It has not been changed, because then I would not have been able to agree with it. It still prohibits commercial use.

2. Nobody can create anything using the Custom Content Browser, and therefore cannot sell anything produced by the Custom Content Browser, since it doesn't produce anything.

3. Why are we so quick to assume that EA has backed off their position? If they did suddenly say you could sell your creations with the game and body shop, they would have to answer to all the copyright holders that provide content for this game: ie. Hillary Duff, H&M, Ford Motor Company, etc.

How about giving this some thought before flying off the handle, folks?

Mostly, because it doesn't amuse me to do anything to you. After all, I don't have any reason to specifically dislike you. If I really hated you, you might be the subject of a new "solander.mustbedestroyed.org", but honestly, I don't really think that'd be very popular, and thus the potential for butthurt and lulz would be minimal. Not a very good return on investment.

The bottom line being, that, objectively, your TOS is worthless. It has the same lack of legal standing that paysites do, and you have even less of a warchest to try to enforce it with. You're frankly better off going with an official "Meh" position and saving yourself a lot of potential grief. After all, YOU don't make money off it, and YOU don't lose anything if someone happens to download your work from a third party redistributor instead of from your site. Realistically, unless someone has actually plagiarized your work to claim credit for themselves, it does not have ANY effect on you WHERE they get it. So I simply fail to see why you'd even care, but I'm kind of a pragmatist like that. The only reason people follow it at all is voluntary compliance combined with lack of serious incentive to do so, and I would suspect that most of that is token lip service anyway: If you were to take your toys and go home, or your site were to explode in a big fiery ball visible from space, I have every reason to believe your "fans" would quickly turn around and ignore that little TOS of yours. People are more committed to Getting Stuff than they are to your TOS. Realistically, you're better off accepting this. Support "Meh" as an official policy.

Yay! Rum I don't have to steal! :lol:
Ty, ty!

I'm not sure if you're talking to me(?), but I wasn't trying to over-react or anything.  I was just agreeing with Feverish that, if and when EA ever comes out officially and supports paysites, I would stop playing the game.  It's an ethical thing for me, I guess.

That hasn't happened yet, obviously, no matter how loud the paysite supporters are crowing it up over @ SC2, but...  I just wouldn't be able to enjoy the game anymore if EA was all "TSR is wonderful and we support them!"  Maybe that's weird, I guess.  :/

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

You should really consider to go pay :) You could blackmail me with all our stuff hosted at solander.mustbedestroyed.org. I had to buy free all those hostage packages and you would get rich ;) Sounds better now?




I know, that i can not enforce our TOS. In fact, i have to nothing in my hands against anyone, that decides not to respect them. But nonetheless, i count on the fairness of others in this community to respect our TOS, and most of them, even here ;), do so.

And as pointed out before: If i should decide to quit, all content would be free to use for everyone and no TOS would apply anymore. But until that time, I ask to respect them.

Um - no you didn't.  You said that uploading to third party sites was a hassle for your users - unless somehow fileshare friendly policies for sold content are a hassle - which I can't see.



No - this isn't a court of law - we're not even discussing this in a country with an adversarial system - Malaysia has an inquisitorial system, with a totally different set of rules.



I know who's being an ass here, and it's not just Pescado.



And when you come back, you can safely ignore my questions again, just as you did with Angha Tyl's.



The thing is that if Pescado came to upload free stuff to the booty - who would come?  If I go to your site, I can get it.  If I go to Pescado's site, I can get it.  I would choose to go to the free site - not the booty.  I certainly wouldn't direct people to his repository - but rather yours.  Many other people wouldn't do it either - and finding reliable types to download free stuff and upload it - that would be very hard too.  Not to mention that your site - I get it the day of the release. Pescado's site, I wait a few days - who would do that?

Not to mention that keeping up with free site stuff (and there's a lot) would mean around the clock uploading - look at how much you would need to do.  What for? Nothing?  Butthurt only happens when you actually hurt the other person.



He has many people to harass - I'm sure you're way down on his list.  He has all of us to give custom titles to, as well as those at MATY to harass.  Pescado is a busy angry man - I doubt freesites are a blip on his radar.

Hey Solander

*note, I hope this makes sense, it's 5am* I think Pes is actually putting a sensible policy in his usual blunt terms.. For me it comes down to this, you have to shrug your shoulders and move on for the times when someone is being a pain and absolutely won't pay attention to your TOS.. Like the guy at Pandora who apparently is hosting some of Numenor's files against his will. You can relationship build with those around you so that people want to take care of you, you can ask politely, you can even yell.. but when it comes down to it if someone decides to do the wrong thing, beyond a sensible point the easiest thing you can do is shrug your shoulders and move on so that it doesn't ruin your hobby for you. And that would be the "meh" point for me..

Be rest-assured what most free site and even booty people are more likely to do is link-share.. Almost every forum I'm a member of has a "Finds" area for links to cool stuff we find and man, we get excited when we do... Everyone I know checks TOS and will generally just move on if it is too stiff for our taste. What we don't do is share already free stuff against the person's will.. mostly the only people who do that are on the Exchange and occasional rude sites like Pandoras (which are usually paysites might I add), and like I said we can ask nicely, we can even yell but in the end there's bugger all we can do about them.

Redisenchanted I am actually aware that PMBD predates the S2C thread.. but the S2C thread is where I count this issue as going from a niche issue to an issue everyone was aware of community wide.. A whole heap of us were trying to do stuff about the issue at that point, some of it was just pointless was all..  :lol:

Angha..

It never was a legal issue for me in the first place, and I've thought that all the debating about the intent of the EULA was just clouding the real issues.  If EA is going to officially let the community factions fight it out amongst themselves, that's a good thing.  We've got most of the brains on our side.

EA can't (or shouldn't) really come out against file sharing, since the Exchange does much of what PMBD does, just in a more craptacular and less organized way.  

At the same time, if EA is basically going to say "everyone carry on as you were, and figure it out amongst you," then why on earth would TSR want to call attention to that?  I mean, at this point they aren't telling TSR (and others) to stop charging money, but they aren't telling PMBD (and others, including their own exchange) to stop sharing pay files for free, either.

If EA simply backs out of the argument, and leaves TSR, Peggy, etc., at the mercy of the pirates and other anti-pay factions, I know who I'm placing my bet on for the win, and it ain't TSR or Gap-Girl.

It started as a legal thing for me. Legal + feeling like I'd been duped by TSR. (Wait...I paid Atwa and Juttapoontah?). But this doesn't change a diddly durned thing for me & my conscience.

For one, no where in this new "Content Tools" EULA does it say that paysites are A-ok. For two, there hasn't been anything posted that changes the EULA for the games, Homecrafter, and BodyShop. For C, there still is the issue of paysites providing little to no support for issues with faulty downloads, items which do not appear as advertised, or lost days of subscriptions due to site downtime. For IV, I may not be a nasty little ass (said with affection, kiddo) like Pescado, I may be a tree-hugging little hippy, but let's examine one of the main credos of tree-hugging hippyhood: Free Love. You charge for the love, you make it not free. This makes hippies cry.

Karminger.. ah, bless.. I love that. I'm going to post that one on the front of my 'puter I think... :D

Ry, I am proud of you. EA is still waffling just as bad as a place that serves breakfast twenty-four hours a day. They're playing one side against the other, but don't realize that it's going to bite them in their rapidly shrinking balls. If we can't get customer support for what we buy, we're gonna raise hell. If we can't get satisfaction from the bastards who sold it to us, we're then going to turn on the ones who said that it was ok to sell it in the first place.
Besides, what the paysites are selling is still copyrighted material, correct? At times, it's copyrighted in more than one way, with a Disney logo or something similar. We've all heard that Walt's company has at one time or another gone after sites selling shit with their logo/characters on it and told them to knock it the fuck off. Can't you just see some dumb fucker of a paysite owner telling the big Diz that EA said it was ok, that they could sell content? I'd love to be around when the shit hit the fan and the Ears go after the Madden maker!
Fuck them. In the ear, up the ass, through the nose. I made a decision to stick with this place and my fellows until the end, and as I see it, this is nowhere near the end. It's just another storm in the sea and we've got a better ship than the paysites do, all they have is shit. I'm gonna support and nurture this site as best I can. I'm gonna praise FREE sites to the skies and beyond. But paysites? Hell, I wouldn't even waste shit by throwing it at them, why punish the waste that comes from a body?
TSR is feeling smug? Why? They didn't get an exclusive agreement. They didn't get a SIGNED contract that says they work for EA. If they ain't got it, they can't have my money. I'm not a thief, never have been. Once something is paid for by me, it's mine so go piss up a rope if you don't like what I do with it. Is Wal-Mart gonna come after me wanting me to pay for the hand-me-downs that my son got from his older cousin? Don't look at me like that, those clothes carry copyrights and all that happy shit, are you so sure the store wouldn't want them to be paid for again? Silly assholes, they think they are owed for what they do.
Sure, they're owed something. Wanna know what they are owed? A big fucking hammer slamming them in the shins for being dickwads that don't understand ethics! You don't charge for copyrights and trademarks that don't belong to you. As I understand it, the package file is part of the game engine. I'm not paying them for something that they had no part in engineering. I'm also not paying for a goddamn Adidas log, especially when it looks like shit and I myself wouldn't wear it, so why should I put it onto my sims?
Also, why should I pay for stuff that would look better if a pre-school child had coloured it with those big old fat crayons they give the little ones to use in kindergarten? My son could do a better job than some of them and he's not even into using crayons yet! He'd much rather take a bar of soap and smear it across every glass surface that he can find. Come to think of it, that would look better than much of the paystuff I've seen.
Now, as to how we fit into the community, being pirates and all. I've actually given a great deal of thought to this before, and think I've said it already, but it's worth repeating. Those of you who've heard it before, go grab some popcorn and rum. Those who haven't, siddown and be comfy and listen the hell up. We pay for the files from paysites. It gets checked to make sure it's not buggered up. At least, not buggered any more than it would be from that site normally. Then, it is posted in the Booty for anyone who would like to download it for themselves. We free the people of financial obligation to get these files. We allow them to make up their minds on if this stuff is worth having, WITHOUT having to shell out bucks only to find out that it's total shit that borks their game or plain looks like something that rests within an infant's diaper.
We don't go after free sites, because they are free. They GIVE to other users without restraint and they normally make sure their stuff is top quality. They make it because they love to play the game and want to share what they are capable of making. People like this are deeply appreciated and respected.
Paysite owners/creators view it as a job, first and foremost, that they make money off of. It doesn't matter what quality it is so long as they can get a buck or ten out of it. Money. Reminds me of the same song by the Beatles. And another one by Pink Floyd. With them, it is greed. Don't hand me that tripe about bandwidth costs, it ain't on. A site should not cost more than twenty a month, and if it does, you're getting the shaft up the shaft and need to get a new provider.
So, while maybe we don't offer our own original creations here, we still give back to the other gamers in this community because we think it's the right thing to do. We don't go around asking people to send us bucks so we can make a profit. We ask for help getting pay items so we can distribute them among the people who simply can't afford, have credit cards, feel paying is wrong and any other reason they may have. Why does that make us bad? We pay for shit. We don't hack a site to get what they have. We give. Doesn't that make us a charity?
Just wondering. And again, Ry, your post made me smile.
And for those of you idiots who missed my points, shut the fuck up and read it again until it makes sense or figure out that we've not lost a damn thing! Not our rights to spend our money how we will, not our determination that what we do is right, and not the right to distribute OUR purchases as we see fit. You've not really gained a damn thing. My reaction? EA has no balls. You read too much into shit that doesn't make sense. Ahhhh, what's the use of trying to explain things to a fuckwit? If a brain was a sexual organ, they'd break open their skulls to play with it... just because you can make money with this game, doesn't mean that you ought to. Get employment, exclusive employment with the company and maybe I will buy shit from you. But, if I knew for sure that Atwat and the other twats were working for them, I'd play tiddlywinks for the rest of my life with broken glass!

My apologies.  I misread "gaming communities" and for some reason thought it said simming communities.  My bad.  Please forgive.  *takes calculator back*

You know what, Calalily.  I did answer the questions.  More than once.  Just because you blindly choose to ignore those answers that don't automatically mark me as your vision of 'evil', doesn't mean I have to change my answers to suit you.

And I could give a shit about Malaysia.  I DON'T live there.  And by acknowledging that BECAUSE you are in Malaysia for those reasons, you also acknowledge that you know what you are doing is wrong.

THAT is my opinion.

Isn't is cheaper? Just asking. You can't learn if you don't ask. Besides, we don't think what we do is wrong. That's a judgement that isn't up to anyone but each individual to make. Sorry, dude. Actually, I'm not sorry for what I believe, but I don't know why people get so bent about it. People who are bent aren't much fun to play with...

Folks, please read my last reply in the NeptuneSuzy thread and go from there.  This is the last time I am posting here until I see if I need to accept the pleasant and helpful offerings of advice from those that are OFFERING it, rather than twisting or ignoring what I say.

I would just like to advise, that I am not leaving done for now because I feel even a little bit challenged by your arguments and questions, I am leaving because I see now that Pescado is not going to ever change or remove anyones files, no matter what any of us do.  He has as much admitted he has no respect for anyone else or there wishes, regardless of what they do, or do not do, and is just doing this for his own amusement.

For that reason alone, there is no benefit for me to argue this any longer.

To those that just want respect and are honestly trying to help, whether I disagree with your 'beliefs', thank you for at least showing that much respect.  You know who you are.

To the rest of you, ESPECIALLY 2 certain individuals that know who they are, all I can say is, "What goes around comes around", and especially to those arrogant enough to presume they are superior to anyone else and are above reproach.

MIKEY!!! out...

No, we're in Malaysia because of the competitive pricing and reasonable policies. Pure and simple. Also, because not being in the US has been trendy and popular for a few years now.

And I notice you challenged me to provide my specifics, but when I did, you didn't bother to reply to me at all Mikey.. oh well, never mind, I'll live.. :lol:

I will just assume that it means you don't have an answer for my criticisms.. and I did read the Neptune Suzy thread, and all I heard was you going on about keeping kids away from your site.. See my above answer as to why I don't beleive you in that reason.

Actually there are several people whose files were removed from the Booty when they went free, so it certainly is possible and has happened before. However, our stipulation is that the files must be provided for free (all of them). If that is not a step you are willing to take (no matter what your reasons are), then no, your files will not be removed from the Booty. I'm sorry if this upsets you, or that you feel we are being cruel or amoral in some sense, but we're all just as stubborn as you are for what we feel is the right side.

Obviously, you disagree with us (and some more than others :lol: ) about which part of this argument is morally dubious. In my case, I don't think filesharing of Sims 2 CC is a big deal or wrong at all, as I feel that this community should function on the idea of sharing (information and creations) and skill building (sorry that sounds so cheese). However, I feel that the proliferation of paysites is an example of base greed and exclusion that is of benefit to no one but the paysites themseves, and has made the Sims community a laughing-stock in the eyes of many. You, on the other hand, would likely disagree with this assessment, but c'est la vie, I guess.

WARNING: THE CENSOR IS OFF!

Mikey. This forum isn't about you. We aren't going to go hopping from thread to thread trying to see what pearls of wisdom you've bestowed upon us. We don't give a fuck. We don't care if you have a cold, or the flu, or if your appendix burst. We don't care if you aren't posting. We don't care if the two seconds of silence are because you had to go to work, you went to the circus, you joined the circus, or you are sitting in a corner balling your little eyes out because we didn't "listen to you!!11!!!!!111 OMG Read the NeptuneSuzy Thread!" We do not give a fuck.

This is Paysites Must Be Destroyed, not MIKEY!!!Must Be Destroyed, not M&MNeedfulPilesofShit Must Be Destroyed. You are one out of a million, and honestly the only thing your site has going for it is that you don't over-Photoshop the crap pixels you peddle.

We (and I'm using "we" loosely, as I obvious did not do so, but I know Hecubus did) offered to help you go free. We offered to help you find an alternative way to prevent droves of minors from accessing your "adult" section, the entire reason you stated you charged for access. You were not open to this. Fine. You don't have to accept any and all advice you get. But this whole insult one moment, then laugh it off the next bit isn't flying. You are acting just as twelve as you first appeared.

Oh, and FYI: You need to look at a woman sometime. Your aereola's are unreasonably dark and orange.

Pardon me, I need to meditate now. Stupid pissant children.

WARNING: I AM ADDRESSING STUPIDITY!


Oh, thank fuckin' christ in a handcart!  It's about fuckin time the true 'you' came out you useless piece of shit.  The arrogance of SOME of you really astounds and amuses me.  You have the gall to think because this is not www.MIKEY!!!.com that I don't have a right to voice my FUCKIN opinion?

GO FUCK YOUR HIGH HORSE!!!

Call it cocksucking whining if it makes you feel like a bigger person, you son-of-a-bitch.  I was ASKED in the mother fuckin' NeptuneSuzy thread, so I answered in the mother fuckin' NeptuneSuzy thread.

AND whether or not you fuckin' cocksuckin' offered to help us, I said IN THE NEPTUNESUZY THREAD that we were working on a freakin' idea you ignorant pile of thieving, arrogant, no right to breathe the same fuckin' air as me, piece of shit.  If that is not good enough for your arrogant over fisted loose ass, TOO FUCKIN' BAD!!!

And thinking that making fun of "my aereolas" is going to piss me off, thing again, ASSHAT!!!  You just allowed me to have my fun, and I don't give a shit if this post gets deleted because most of you don't no how to FUCKIN' understand the written language anyway!!!

By the way, Mr FUCKIN REASONABLE!!!  Do you really think I care if most of you actually give a hit if I'm sick or not?  I'll answer for you; ARE YOU FUCKIN' STOOPID?!??!??!?!?111110000677677(Oh, look.  I can't type '!' marks)  I was letting you know for courtesy, FUCK-NUTZ!!!

Tell, you what.  The folks who actually offered help...I appreciate it.  Those of you who actually listened and talked with a truly open mind...I appreciate and respect you.

But those of you, AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, that are nothing more than ARROGANT, COCK SUCKING, WASTES OF FLESH, who want nothing more than to create dissension and conflict for your own enjoyment.  The only FUCKIN' reason those that run this site do it, is to feed their own FUCKIN' egos, because they can't get the fame they really, really crave.


NOW I am done with this shithole excuse for a site and forum.  Have a nice FUCKIN' day!!!

ROTFLMAO!!!

Fuck, are SOME of you pathetic followers!!!

MIKEY!!!

P.S.  Did I swear enough for your liking?

*kicks back with Pes, pulls out a jug of rum and a jug of vodka.hands rum to Pes........Bottoms up..........*

Mikey, please stop admin. CPR to this horse.....leave it the hell alone.......

:lol: This thread is getting a bit WCW in it's feel, isn't it? Which come to think of it, is probably highly appropriate for the original topic.

Mikey, please stop. I just laughed so hard at your post that I got a stitch in my side. Maybe you are a comedian after all.  OMG that was funny, funny... funny.  :lol:

Would you all just stop fucking typing this fucking dead horse, and fucking Mikey, quit using the goddamned fucking mongloid useless shit-mouth god-forsaken jesus h tapdancing christ all fucking mighty language? Son of a fucking ass-biting shit smelling cocksucking of a butch.....

C'mon, no one use that fucking goddamned shitass lanuguage anymore...


* That good enuff, armywife?* :lol:  :twisted:

Me too. For one, I only actually cursed twice, but the number of fucks in his post made it so lame it was hilarious. I think I went too far when I insulted his pixels. Oh, the pixels! As for "cocksucking whining" please note that I never called it that. I take no issue with cocksucking. I'm also a woman, and no one has taken issue with my cocksucking.

Armywife, can I have some of that popcorn?

you don't know what a meme is do you?


for me, that's the day i stop buying ea games and download them for free from torrent sites instead.

Methinks that someone who claimed to be nothing more than amused by any of this, has ultimately popped a vein.
*grabs some popcorn, some rum, and other stuff.  Puts lampshade on head*

Just don't pass out while dancing on that table.......hate to try and explain your broken body to Pescado..........

*Looks in wallet, pulls out some $20.00's .......hmmm...should I?* :lol:

Uhmmm - $20?  Surely, you are kidding.  I'm high maintenance, $20 won't even cover "hello".   :lol:

I am very glad to see that you guys aren't shaken by that silly EULA hoopla here and at SC2. Those anti PSMB people are too funny.

.... Uhm, HI?...the exchange, only here...in a much more usable format and specifically for the files that were previously being held for ransom by human debris calling themselves ARTists. Yeahp, that's PSMB allrighty! :D

Does it hurt them to be THAT stupid. No, really, does it? :(

Hon, a little word before someone uses you for a medicine ball. Paysites Must Be Destroyed, it translates out to PMBD. And armywife, if you don't get down from there, I'm taking the brownies and running!

I prefer stirred not shaken.  Anywho, before someone tags you for it, it's PMBD.  *Here have some rum and join the party..*

I love the new shady FreakyBooty!!!

Edit: Chocolate...you brought chocolate?  Chocolate = Female Prozac

You just want me to get off the table because you want it - the table that is - hand over the chocolate.

Oh! You expect me to be able to spell and get my acronyms straight AND drink... :shock:  could be a little more than I can handle. :P Sorry Dudes :D

(P.S. We really ARE supposed to be actually drinking along at home, right?? :shock: )  

 :lol:

OOps! Where are my manners?! Thanks for the rum! :D

I only want the table so I can set the goodies out on it! Brownies, cookies, summer melons, suicide punch, rum, sandwiches with deviled ham (rye bread, btw), popcorn balls, rum, sorbet, sherbert, fudge, divinity, rum... Not to mention rum-soaked watermelon.... rum-raisin icecream.... Hey, I can dream! Now move it or it all stays in the containers!

I don't post here very often but I just wanted to share this with all of you. Back in July I posted a theory/ paranoia on SFV about EA and TSR and it just seems like with this change with the EULA my theory may actually come true.  Here is what I wrote.



and here is what myself and another member said








I'm not going to pretend to completely understand the legalize of the EULA and such because frankly I'm going to fileshare either way. However, if EA was planning on buying TSR and keeping it as a subscribtion site (so they can get there continued kick back) wouldn't they first have to make a change so that pay sites would be ok? I would really like some of your opinions on this.

NEEDS MOAR CONSPIRACY!!!!

Oh, and I'm glad MIKEY's true personality was immortalised here for everyone to see.  Great business man and joker eh?

Anything's possible, I suppose. However, if EA bought TSR and was selling their own product through it then no, they would not have to change their EULA. EA is the creator of the EULA and as such is not bound to it in the same way that the rest of us are.

I don't really see EA wanting to take on TSR as it's own business though, as that place would need a major, major clean up (copyright infringement everywhere, loads of unmonitored buggy downloads even from their top "artists", not to mention the incredibly poor consumer service). As well, EA would end up being responsible for these issues in a way they don't have to be now (tough for them to say that you can't make any complaints to them about pay CC or its distributor when they actually ARE the distributor).

Despite the advanced knowledge that TSR claims to have (they have been around for a while and so likely do still have some friends, especially from Maxis days, who are willing to send them info), and this new supposedly paysite friendly EULA, keep in mind that when we make CC we are still working under the original EULA that we agreed to. The new EULA hasn't been attached to anything that could be used to actually make any custom content (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it has been), and it would be next to impossible for EA to try and get people to sign a new agreement that has jurisdiction over the original Sims or Bodyshop at this stage. As I read it I didn't think it gave the carte blanche to paysites that TSR and others seem to think it has either. I think it was really more of an attempt on EA's part to remove themselves from an argument that they don't want to be part of or deal with.

Sorry, no speak english

Sehr interessant, nachdem ich die "neue" EUla durchgelesen habe, habe ich auf agree geklickt, also zugestimmt und bin auf dem DL für den Manager gelandert, was für mich bedeutet, diese angeblich neue Eula gehört zu der Software Manager, was auch erklärt, dass weder von Tools noch Materialien gesprochen wird und was auch erklärt, dass auf Websiten - egal ob free oder pay - überhaupt kein Bezug genommen wird. Ich fürchte :lol: , was das Spiel Sims2 anbelangt und die Optionen für das Basteln, da gibt es wohl nach wie vor nur die EULA, die mit dem Spiel mitkommt und der wir als Bastler zugestimmt haben (allerdings nicht alle Bastler).

Sorry :oops:

Here's the best babelfish can do without our lovely German pirates.



Roxelane: Es ist nicht vollkommen, aber Sie können diesen Übersetzer benutzen http://babelfish.altavista.com/

TSR and EA really just have the same goal, make lots of money. They even go about it in a similar way. Crap sites full of stupid 12ness, poor navigation, no quality control and an over-censored forum. I think that TSR does talk to Maxis (not necessarily EA) and have taken their prepared sob-story about how they can't possibly maintain the site, "The Number 1 Fansite", without "donations". Tacked onto this are the inflated statistics including every person who ever signed up, including all the double accounts and banned members, the number of page loads, which includes all the children pressing refresh every other minute in their lame threads, and every single item ever uploaded, with sets counting in addition to each item in said set. Some gullible (bribed?) Maxoid has believed all this and has made sure EA Legal knows that Maxis relies on TSR to sell thousands of units (games/EPs).

Have I told you that I hate TSR?

Most of what I think about this has already been said. But just for the record – and because I think it’s about time to start ignoring Mikey – I’ll repeat it anyway.

I think EA’s new EULA is just their way of keeping out of the battlefield. On one hand they don’t want to outright endorse paysites, because that you make them look really stupid compared to other game communities, since the Sims is practically the only one where paying for cc is accepted. On the other hand they don’t want to go after the paysites either because it would cost them huge amounts of money and probably wouldn’t be worth it for them. But the paysite issue was becoming thorny what with all these emails and stuff, so they decided to back even further away by watering down their EULA.

I don’t really care. I’ve never been fond of the EULA argument. If anybody wants to trawl through the whole NeptuneSuzy thread you’ll find out why, but there’s also a little bit about it here:

http://www.mounes-neighbourhood.110mb.com/PiratesPaysites.html

The bottom line for me is that paysites are wrong for moral reasons, rather than for legal reasons. I think it’s a battle over hearts, rather than over minds and lawyers. So EA can change their EULA all they want, they can even endorse paysites and it won’t make one difference to me. I think I’m not the only one who feels that way.

When TSR clings so tightly to the new EULA they are clutching at straws. They know they are in the wrong and that a big part of the community do not like their ways. That part will continue to grow. Not because of any statements from EA, but because of the whole discussion that is finally beginning to open up in more and more parts of the community. It’s really all about awareness raising as the say in international NGO-land.

Angha Tyl and scribble: Add me to that club of yours, will you, because I agree completely with everything you’ve said.

Solander: I can understand why you’d worry, but I honestly don’t think you have to. The support and respect you find for free sites here is nothing less than impressive. And I’ll tell you one thing: If ever any of my creations ended up in the wrong place – on a paysite or stolen by another free site - I’d be damn happy to have friends here. Because I have no doubt that they’d stand up for me against the wrong-doer.

I will also say, though, that both you and Pescado has a point about TOU’s. We have very little means to enforce them and have to rely on respect. When I first began creating I made a decision to put a very, very lax TOU on my creations: As long as I get credit you can do anything with it – EXCEPT pay or donation. Why? For one thing because to me the more people who enjoy and have fun with my creations the better. But also because I realized it would be impossible to keep total control of whether somebody used it in an uploaded house or included the mesh with their recolor, and I really didn’t want to have to throw a hissy fit every time that happened. A lax TOU would make everything easier and less frustrating for myself. I think that’s what Pescado is saying too.

Ry! Where are you? I got one of those really fine bottles of rum out of the cellar. So come on. Let’s share!  :D


http://

Thank you,
 no new Eula It is the EULA (old)  for the software content manager

The issue is, and always had been, what kind of community we want... I actuallly think the battle is won more by threads like the Ugliest Paysite find.. and on the flipside, celebrating good free content. Because six to twelve months ago, the minute people wanted hair people on the Exchange would refer them to Peggy.. if the exchange kids start referring them to Nouk instead, then we've won.

The other big thing.. and I am saying this from bitter experience. The reason why I'm not here under my own name is, I got very burned out from trying to help on this issue before. So I am saying to you guys, when people come and try to help, don't shred them. Because otherwise we're no better than the  paysites and we all may as well give up and stop playing the game right here and now because we'll never get anything done..

Notice I'm saying not to shred the people who're trying to help.. The paysites are fair game as far as I'm concerned... :lol:

Here is the "Gwendofyed" version:

Very interesting, after reading the "new" EUla, I clicked on "agree" and came to the page with the download for the "content manager"  which means for me that the new EULA only belongs to the Content manager. This would explain why there is no reference to websites, free or pay. I am afraid   :lol:  that for Sims 2 and the custom content there is only the Eula that was shipped with the game and we creators agreed to (well, not all of the creators)

Moune, your page is brilliant.  :D Really good explanation.

Roxelane: Froh, hilfreich zu sein - jetzt können Sie zu jeder Zeit plaudern  :D

Thanks Gwendolyne - hopefully with the translator we can hear from Roxelane without her feeling like she has to wait to be heard.  :D Unless of course, you want to patrol the forum at all hours for German people  :lol: Which is fine with me by the way.

Paden
I'm honored to have made you proud. :lol: And smile.
ty ty, *takes a bow*

Mikey
It's too bad you couldn't choose to simply ignore the people who weren't trying to discuss things with you. Honestly, you can't expect them not to poke, you do deserve it after the way you were acting before.

Moune *the artist formely known as peachfish*
:lol:
I'm here! *takes that rum*
Lets party hunny-bunny!!!

Ah, see, the good side effect of my little diatribe. Sorry, I'd just hit my limit of seeing him posting in multiple threads and making it all about him. 'Twas annoying to the extreme.  :roll:

If EA is going to join up with TSR (unfortunately, I could imagine that) they would have to do a major overhaul of the site. Namedly, kick a couple of crap creators out. Honestly, them taking over TSR would make me happier than them just ignoring it, or taking this stupid (yet typical) hands-off approach.

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread, but this site is just loading too damn slow for me. Has someone written to EA and asked about this? I'll volunteer if nobody has or perhaps we all should and see what they make about being bamboozled.

I'm very nearly appalled by this news, but it's not like I wasn't expecting it. Is there anything we can do about this? Can we find 'stolen' textures from clothing or furniture companies and report them, how about reporting recolors of the H&M stuff that are being resold? People also create pixel versions of furniture from IKEA and Pottery Barn, are those reportable? What about those that flat out take meshes from Rederosity and the like and resell them?

I contacted E.A. about it for clarification, and it went like this..

Me.


E.A.


 :?

Fenris... Fenris... I know that I've heard that name before and it wasn't in a positive context... Oh, yeah, the Fenris wolf of Norse mythology! Son of Loki, bound in chains by Tyr and due to help bring about the Ragnarok, otherwise known as the apocolypse or end of the world, and help the forces of evil destroy Midgard, otherwise known as earth. Sorry if my memory of the mythology is rusty, my brother has my copy of the skalds of Snorri Sturluson and refuses to give them back... asshole...

Anyways, what that person said sounds like a load of fertilizer. How can you make that retroactive? Just wondering. But I've never looked on the name of Fenris as positive...

Gah. Typical dodging the actual question. So everyone who has agreed to the EA EULA in the past is now governed by the new one. This is as I've always understood EULA's to be. Subject to change, you are responsible for checking, your agreement carries over.

What they didn't answer was what was actually asked: Are the past actions of sites which were going against the EA EULA at that time still considered to be violations, or does this change negate the status of those violations since now they wouldn't be violations.

Seriously EA, could you try to straddle the fence just a little bit harder? Sooner or later though all this dancing around with one cheek on each side is going to leave you in need of some rectal repair.
I wish they would come up with a solid stance, even if that stance is that they don't give a fuck what anybody does. I for one will always believe that paysites are wrong no matter what EA says. If you want to make money creating game content go work for a legit software company. If you want to create stuff for a game you like and share it with others fine, just don't expect people to pay for your amateur creations. As MTS2 has proved it is entirely possible to fund a massive freesite on donations.

Now where did I leave my rum....

Any harder and the picket that's already sticking up their ass, would be coming out of their mouth. Seriously, I'm not too concerned by whatever EA's stance-of-the-week is. Because the bottom line is file sharing is the norm in just about every other gaming community. Fuck EA if they think the sims community is somehow different.

And besides pirates, it's a hell of a lot more glamorous taking on EA than it is Thomas the Troll and his team of Teutonic Twats.

Technically, that statement is wrong, as the right to arbitrarily change the original EULA was never stated in it, not that such an option is likely considered to be legally valid, as it would amount to a blank check. In order for the new one to be binding on anyone, you would have to agree to it at some point, which would involve downloading and using something new.

TSR may well have done this.. or Maxis may well be planning an online version of Sims 2 at some stage with a similar arrangement to Second Life. *shudder* Y'think about all the money Linden labs is making from selling raw "land" and they basically did it from selling to a Maxis' type customer base..

I just spoke to Alex over at EA there are ZERO plans to change the EULA agreement for the Sims 2. The custom content manager has always had a different EULA than BS or Home Crafter, because and he just said the same thing I have said all over the place You cannot create CC with the content manager. They are not giving paysites licensing agreements not Thomas or anyone else and asked where I heard this from. I told him it's obviously Thomas telling people he's in some deal with EA. He said NO we are not in any deal with TSR nor any other paysite.

So now, please I encourage everyone to call and ask to speak to legal. The changes have already been implemented in Spores and the Sims 3 for how CC will be handled. So you can't cause any harm there. It's the lies that are circulating now that are "P"ing me off. Want to see what Will Wright really thinks about paysites go to a Spore show and see how CC will be handled for it, how he's ensuring that CC remains free for his whole community. Then ask him why?

Call and ask if there are plans to change the EULA to support paysites.
650-628-1500
press 0
and just ask to speak to legal or someone in the legal dept

Now that is interesting.  I wonder why TSR went spouting off about the 'change' in the EULA.  

How are EA games going to handle CC for Sims 3, I wonder.

You go, Hawkgirl! What can I say? You rock. Now go tell the hysterics at S2C.  :lol:

Wouldn't it be lovely if Sims 3 had a built-in custom content maker feature, which is what the community has been begging for since the beginning?

I have no intention to call overseas, it'd cost me an arm and a leg, but I hope someone closer does call and report whatever they say in here.

To see if we'll have matching reports from them, I mean. Not that I doubt your word HG, but let's face it. EA isn't known for making a stand or even having one unified opinion and standing by it. The drivel that Fenris thought passed for an answer alone goes against it.

If it's Thomass just jumping to conclusions and spewing off (which is a very very sweet theory) then I can't wait to see how all the sheeple will react when nothing happens to back up his word. I mean, by pointing out the new EULA he, himself, sends the message that they are in fact at odds with the old one.

It would be especially sweet if someone at EA decides they want to put him in his place and by making a public denial of what he claimed in the newsletter, but I won't hold my breath.

Thanks HawkGirl thats really good to know. I still think that EA's current public position tends to hover over a lawn dividing device too much. I'm really eager to see changes for TS3 and Spore.

MizzKitty that is indeed a very sweet theory. By acknowledging that they do read and understand the EULA, Thomass and co. are admitting that they know their behavior has been (and hopefully will continue to be) at odds with its terms. I would dearly love to see them scramble to cover their asses if the hinted at changes to the EULA for future EA come to be  :twisted:

YES! I remember talk at MTS2 in the early days and thought that it was a great idea back then. It wouldn't even have to be built into the game as far as I'm concerned. Just an add on like Homecrafter.

No problem, that's why I encouraged people to call for themselves. I personally...the feeling I got at the show is EA/Will doesn't want to dirty their hands. They don't want to risk alienating fans on either side because it is too close to the release of Spore and Sims 3. Plus a new EP is coming up next month. I think if there is anything at all done it will be after the last EP and not before. They will take their time and gather all the evidence and financial records they need. Make sure all T's are crossed and all I's are dotted. Unless the sale of Bon Voyage doesn't go as expected then it will happen sooner. I also got the feeling they are getting really tired of TSR and EA being used in the same sentence like they are joined at the hip. Words like Thomas said this and Thomas said that. I think instead of winning friends he is slowly making enemies at EA. They're reading all the comments on the BBS. Various forums, etc...so they know everything going on. I was told they know about paysites, they know about pirates. They know people are uploading pay things to the BBS. Have they stopped any of it? No. Like I said they don't want to dirty their hands on either side.

Excellent work, Hawkgirl! If what Alex says is indeed how it is, then it seems like Thomas has just shot himself thoroughly in the foot.  :P

About Fenris: I mistakenly wrote to him once too (when TSR was named 'Our top fansite'). I got a very nice reply back from him basically saying 'I can't answer your question. I only do techinical support'. So I'd say he probably knows nothing about what the new EULA implies.

I'm sure others here are much better versed in legal matters than me, but I remember a lawyer once telling me that at least for laws retroactivity is only used/allowed in extremely special cases. Normally, if an action wasn't illegal when it was committed you can't be punished for it. That would work the other way around too. If it was illegal to sell cc when you did it that action is still punishable if it is later allowed.

Calalily: Thanks.  :D

Ry: Cheers! I hope Armywife isn't looking.  :lol:

All 8 CC tools are part of the actual game. Including growing/changing hair. Body parts, etc...You can even make your own custom colors and textures for everything from within the game. There isn't a separate program for making CC if that's what your asking?

There aren't any for object making, HG.  Or meshing.  Edit:  that come with the game, I mean.  Sorry in advance if I misunderstand your question.   :lol:

Your right I didn't see anything for meshing, object creating in Spores. And we won't get to see the grand preview of Sims 3 till sometime around Oct of next year is what I was told? But I think your correct we may be able to recolor/retexture objects already in the Sims 3 from within the game but I don't think there will be anything for meshing or object creation. Although he did hint around that it would be customizable as far as game play that we could alter it to make it so it's enjoyable for each individual. How they'll do that I don't know? I don't know anything about writing a game program. I think the Sims 2 is already that way, but of course I have to have my Insim to make it that way. lol

I saw that Moune  

Sorry about the pic...I didn't realize it was that big.

Oh, yeah, I'm coming to get you and your rum Peachfuzz!

EEK! Armywife, resize the pic, it throws off the whole thread and it's just getting good now.

I really hope you're right Hawkgirl, it would be very sweet indeed!

Oh shit!!! *runs and hides behind ... behind ... behind ... *

Aaaargh! Somebody give me something to hide behind. Armywife is coming for my rum!  :shock:

:cry:  :cry: damn it :cry:  :cry:

I'm always late.
I's sorry Moune. We'll have to sneak into a different thread to enjoy our rum, I suppose. :lol:

Way to break the board AW!  :roll:

 :lol:

Hey Peachcheeks...see above edit.  

Ry, how could you sneak the rum away?  From me?  

Anyway, back to business, I can't find that post anymore at TSR about the EULA.  Anyone know if it is still somewhere I missed?

*gets BTG & Paden and they make a run with the rum wahahahah*

It's ok. Whoever doesn't get rum can have some juicy juice. Spiked juicey juice Parceque je suis le vrai P.I.M.P  :roll: Anybody that laughs at my French should get ready for an e-beat down.

Hah! You're going to have to catch me first. Oh look! Wasn't that Atwa whizzing by on a purple flood-filled broomstick?

* runs *

Hey Ry. Over here. She'll never discover us behind this stack of illegal old TSR CD's with Sims 1 content.

Ha ha! Redlove's french sucks!
*runs away laughing maliciously*



on me way peachlove

Please would someone post this in SC2 or give me permission to post?

I'm not a mod, but meh, I don't care.  Over half of them lurk here anyway.  Nice job that you have been doing over at S2C, Meganne.  You might pm Big Truck Girl or Duckie.  I don't think it will be a problem.

Post it, I don't think any of us would care. I know I don't. LOL

Relieved its just a TSR rumor! I had heard back a few months ago Will Wrights plans for Spore. When you hear him talk you see Ea already utilizing this strategy with TS2 as far as a movie, etc. (Yesterday I bought new guts for my PC so it will powerful enough for Spore and the new Sims3 next year, and any EPS to follow BonVoge). Im hoping that the Content Creator will be built into Sims 3, like Spore. Then we can all start creating stuff for free from day one!

Moune I'd love to drink wine with you to. (Nii's french is bad? You should hear mine.)

You're jealous because I know how to say 'I am the real P.I.M.P' in french.

Moune: Fish can't run.  :shock:

Soupie: My written French is actually very good but my spoken French is horrible.

Meganne: I don't see why it would be a problem to post it there. The worst that can happen is it can get deleted right?

Soup Parrot, do come on over. There's plenty for all. Just make sure AW doesn't follow you.

My French tends to get better the more rum I drink. Although I do sometimes still tell my boyfriend that there are pork chops in the fireplace and I'll just go and thrown some logs on the frying pan.  :oops:

Armywife: thank you, I've been fully entertained reading here and debating at SC2 :) The only problem is the lack of logic of some "paysiters" :(
There was an individual very busy insulting Nouk but she disappeared as soon as I posted the quote from here. I wonder...

Big Truck Girl: thank you. I forgot the "meh" policy :)

Moune - Why would you keep the rum from me?  Did I not keep it quiet about your real identity?  And I am the life of the party.  Though FreakyBooty refuses to part with the lampshade.

Edit: Meganne - you're not talking about that supreme bitch Hilary27 are you? She is in serious need of a night out.

*goes with Nii to drink spiked juicy juice and eat brownies with Paden*

She was there also but the one I was referencing was dasangrael. She was really unpleasant with  Nouk. That's the one that started posting days ago pretending she needed to make her opinion about the free/pay debate but it became obviously very soon that she's a "paysiter" under cover :)

I haven't posted in those threads for a bit, I'm just finding it a tad bit comical.  Between the two of them (dasangrael & Hilary), I can't even take it seriously anymore.  Morality? Too funny.  And nonsubjective morality at that, as we all know that every person in the world has the same exact morals.  :roll: I iz steelin, call teh FBI!  Thump thou paysite bible somewhere else.

I can't part with the lampshade, it fits my head perfectly and the color compliments my shoes.  It's the awesomest, I simply can't bear to part with it.  I can't, I tell you!
Trade ya for a brownie.

On top of all, I'm agnostic so that "objective moralism" is one of my pet peeves...

I am not a member there, you are welcome to post it whereever you like. Hopefully others will call as well, and then you'll have some back-up confirmation. I think Nouk is pretty much at the end of her ropes, I nominate her to also call them. If they make her mad she can give them a piece of her mind in her own language, they'd never understand what she was saying. Works for me, she could give a piece of my mind too. ;) Wouldn't work if I did it, I don't speak a foreign language fluently enough to pull it off. They'd just say excuse me, I understood that. Kinda hard to cuss someone out in English when they speak the same language. lol

I still didn't learn out to cuss in English (actually the threads involving Mikey are giving me some insight) but I can speak (and cuss) fluently in other 4 languages so I'll call tomorrow (Pacific).

Why do you need "permission" to post anything anywhere you please? Do what you want cuz a pirate is free! You are a PIRATE!

Good you can give 'em a piece of my mind too. lol Tell them I said crap or get off the pot, there are other's waiting to use it. We'll what else do we think they "paysites" are using to wipe with, if not the EULA? They obviously don't bother to read it. Hmm I just agreed to give them my whole life savings? I did not. Did too. I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only one that ever reads what I agree too before I agree. I read and re-read it to make sure I understood it, before I ever agreed and installed the game. I do the same thing with everything I install or agree too by contract. It's called personal responsibility. No way am I going to enter into a contract with someone if I don't understand what I am reading, or the fine print of that contract. I knew right away as soon as everyone started screaming they changed the EULA that the content manager TOS was different then the other's because I had read it when I first downloaded it long ago. Which is also why I questioned the difference on the BBS. And also why I couldn't understand why everyone was getting all bent out of shape on what it says. I also know the TOS for the online EULA/Privacy policy is a lot different than what we agree to for the game. That will be the next one they update since they are making the games for different platforms now, and everyone will be screaming they changed the EULA. No they are changing the terms for the online service to update it to show all the platforms they are making games for. All the games they are discontinuing service for, it needs to be done. But you watch that will be the next one and everyone will be pointing to it saying they changed the EULA.

Since the whole "EA changed the EULA" drama started I've been scratching my head on total confusion. Basically EA changed the EULA of two items that (to the best of my knowledge) can't be used to create custom content. I was confused mostly by their reference to "content" in the fansite kit until I finally opened the silly thing and found banners. I guess in the sim world we're so used to the word "content" as in "custom content" that we forgot the generic meaning of it :)

That doesn't mean that I exclude that EA would give up on the copyright of the derivatives since they could be liable for the (adult, copyrighted by other corporations, artists) content of the derivatives if some other Floridian lawyer decides to stop chasing ambulances or whatever they do when unemployed.

Thanks for pointing me to Spore and to the model of distribution of the(custom) content referenced by Wright. EA will need a strong EULA to allow for automatic upload on their servers :) From some "google-ing" I understood the same should apply to Sims 3 but so far I didn't see any EA-related statement on that matter. Do you've any link?

Don't use any statements by Mikey as an example. He's really not good at cussing, and many of his phrases just...don't make a bit of sense. Basic rule: Fuck is verb, and noun. Fucking is adverb and adjective. One word covers it all.

This I've never understood, myself. As long as you link to the original quote and give credit, what's the issue with quoting someone on another forum?

I've been conversing with 'Fenris' again...






Now, the only thing I can see on that link is an EULA directly relating to EAOnline, and not third party websites....but let's not let Fenris pointing people to the wrong part of the website cloud our judgement of him/her

One bit caught my eye though.




Is it just me, or does that suggest that I.P. rights are now held by the content creators, and not E.A.?

No, that part is about real copyrights: you can't use someone else's trademark to make stuff for the game. Or better: technically you can, but EA has the right to remove that content from its site.

In a nutshell, you can't make D&G underware and upload it on the Exchange. EA will pull it away.

Well, since EA has NOT removed anything from the Exchange including pay files, and the only reference on the BBS to copyrighted material refers to trademarks such as Disney and Coca Cola, it suggests to ME that they do NOT consider user-made Custom Content to be the intellectual property of anyone else. It suggests that they consider all the crap on the Exchange to be EA's intellectual property rather than any third party's.

That and people actually can have real copyright to models/textures or at least IP they make.  Now if you willingly add that to EA's code, then that's your fault.  Because yes that is your IP, but again no one is holding a gun to your head to put it into EA's property and sell it as something that only really works because of EA's "tools and materials".  If they are, then you have bigger problems than the pirates here.  

However, many creators used models that others have made.  I notice alot are expensive and obviously pirated.  However, some have their own set of clauses, such as you can not distribute them as models, you may only use them in renderings and such.  Well as a .package you are obviously also distributing the model.  It's very clearly in there.  So that being said, the person who has real copyright of the model may wished it to be separated from EA's materials and not distributed with it's .package, and I think they are within some rights there.

This is why I said yesterday I think Thomas instead of winning friends is slowly making enemies. Do you know what they told me yesterday the minute I said TSR?

He said go through the site, any and all copyright infringements you find report them immediately. We need to get this type of stuff off these sites.
Oh ok that's all that's going to happen, right? I'm not stupid. Now you get some teenager on a mission, he's not going to know that what do you think is going to happen if they tell everyone who calls that?

I almost couldn't think of anything to say to that. I was dumbfounded. I'm calling you about the EULA and your telling me to go through TSR's website and report immediately anything that violates anyone's copyright or trademark? They have never suggested such a thing before. So here is the way I saw that comment. Once again back to the we don't want to dirty our hands. If you report all their infringements, think about it. Hint Hint. You can get rid of them, and have them shut down like that! Ok sure thing buddy. then they turn around and do the same thing to freesites. I'm with you on this.

Then we don't have to bother with it. Just like they are discouraging paysites now, by allowing people to slam them on the BBS. The community is doing a fine job of taking care of these things within themselves. Were helping out aren't we? I mean gee were allowing the discussion and links on the BBS, what more do you people want? Shut them down for us. That way we don't have to get in the middle. You all go and do our job then we remain nice and clean and we can claim, "We didn't do it."

Ok if your still with me now, think about it. We add to our online policy that each site is responsible for their own content, not EA. They companies/designers/artists can't sue us because these websites are violating copyright, yes or no? We'll send people on a quest to report them all, anyone that calls recommend they go and report all violations. They get shut down, and our job is done.

We'll I am sorry I would never do that to Thomas and I don't even like the man. Or anyone else for that matter, unless I knew the only thing that would happen is a C&D letter. Which is what would happen with copyright. Some companies with Trademarks/Patents might also do the same depends on if the company is established. Other's holding trademark/patents might go straight for the throat. I have never wanted EA to do anything to harm these paysites, ever. I just wanted them to admit paysites are in violation of their contract with EA.

Why should the rest of us follow the rules and use CC for non-commercial use, when some see themselves as above that rule? I mean either we all agree it's for non-commercial use or we don't...In which case let's all make a little money. What the hell who cares if we rip people off for money on broken things, then deny them a refund. Or if we use copyrighten material, and I'm not talking about EA's copyright. We'll use their things and charge for them, as well. We don't even have to pay for it. We can just google the image and paste it on as clothing, wallpapers, floors, paintings, furniture, objects. Opps now we've violated three copyrights. The photographer, the orignal designer and the company. 4 copyrights if you do want to include EA. On top of that were now selling their work....Or here's another good idea. Let's scope out the cad sites and take their free items and sell them! Who cares how long it too them to make it or that they are sharing them for free? We want money!

Ohhh but were the immoral ones....Ok.

To Meganne I just went to S2C and was reading the posts there. This should help you out.: The federal law concerning SimPe...Federal law always supercedes state law.

V.B.1. The First Fair Use Factor
Section 107 lists the four factors that must be considered in determining whether a particular use is a fair one: “(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


(1) Covers SimPe, because it is indeed teaching people. Not only that it is covered by (4). How many people actually buy the game because of CC. Because people have been able to make mods, to make the game enjoyable? All due to SimPe.

However, if you go back and read that carefully paysites have not only violated EA's copyright. They have violated the federal law for fair usage, because they do harm the potential market for EA.

ETA this only covers reverse-engineering as fair usage. Since they are claiming they only use SimPe they can't use that reverse-engineering to make a profit. Make sense?

Again reiterating what the US Copyright office answered me:

The 3rd party works may be considered derivative works.

A new work that is based on or incorporates a preexisting work can be considered a derivative work. Only the owner of copyright in the original work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create a derivative work. The owner of the original work is generally the author or someone who has obtained rights from the author. For additional information about derivative works, please read Circular 14 on our website, http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html.


EA owns it all unless they give authorization like a licensing deal.

We didn't talk to legal like yourself, we tried through Customer Support, and we got a similar feeling.  Gone are acknowledgments and clarity, they have provided in the past.  They are basically saying, here is the EULA, if you have a problem with anything, take legal matters into your own hands.



Personally I feel like that is the way it's going to stay until TS3 or Spore.  Though Thomas has mentioned several times he plans on doing both at TSR, I even remember seeing  page for it way back when, so it should be interesting to see how this develops when the time comes.

That's what I told Nymphy yesterday, it's like they are trying to take themselves out of the equation and just let the community handle it. But I think if other's are calling and they are telling them what they told me that's a dangerous path to walk on, as well. Especially if you get some teenager hell bent on getting even because someone took his/her money and broke his/her game, or it didn't work in his/her game. Then refused to give them their money back. EA's very smart. They keep the EULA the same for in the game in case "they" decide to do something, then change it all over in other places. That are in public view, so they can't be held responsible. Then! Turn around and tell people to report things on websites...Ok sure we'll all get right on that, so we can sit back and watch every fansite go up in smoke. But, it won't be their fault.

I think HawkGirl's post was partly written as EA so

was meant to be said by EA.
At least that's the only way I could make sense of the post.

They would have been a whole lot better getting some balls and dealing with this.. :lol: Because right now, if they leave this to the community it's going to evolve into mob rule, and that will involve a whole lot of yelling..

Only if there is a mob around, who happen to feel they need to do a bit of ruling and yelling.

Yep, sorry about that. That was my imaginary conversation in my mind of what they were telling me during the time I was at a loss for words. lol Just the impression I got not only from the phone call, but from the show. Don't you know, and this was actually said to me. "Paysites, are a very sensitive topic, right now." Legal is exploring all options and what should be done. I said so they are considering licensing agreements? He said no that is not part of the equation. Where did you hear that?" Etc...Etc.

Anyway I tried to put in italics what was said and then regular print my thoughts/impressions. But, I probably messed it all up. Lesson learned never type when your angry. Just kinda took me aback when he said, "You need to go through that site (TSR) and report all copyright/trademark violations immediately. We need to get all these things off those sites." Like it was my job to do that, then all I could think in my mind is, and where does that end? When all fansites are destroyed? I do realize there are some that don't use any copyright material at all, but many do.

Hawkgirl, I don't believe that "every fansite will go up in smoke." I believe that some will close, because they take the easy way out and just steal images off the internet and paste them on a mesh, or use the artwork of others without credit, etc. These are the lazy content makers. It will be no big deal for users for them to retire.

Then there are the big fansites which will have to go through their OWN databases and remove all copyright infringing files. Again, no big deal.

I think there will be lots of content makers who will create original works...because it is a HOBBY, not a business. And for a hobby, the only incentive is to create, and have others give you positive strokes for your creation. That is how I operate....I make stuff because it makes my game more fun, and I like to hear people say nice things about my creations. Not because of anything EA says or does. I have my fansite because it results in people giving me positive strokes.

And consider: MOST fansites exist to TALK about the game. Downloads are secondary. That is why there are so many forums, with new ones being made every day. I foresee an increase in forums, if anything.

So, no. Fansites will not go up in a puff of smoke, whatever EA does. That is just not human (or internet) nature.

That's where my thoughts were at MTS2 and Insim. Delphy and Kathy, plus the creators there have done so much for us all. Just picturing them having to go through all their downloads and having to remove anything that has any copyright. Which is a lot of clothing on both. Paintings, Wallpapers, bedding, etc...Kathy's already at her witts ends. That might push her over the edge to say screw it. No way would I want them hurt. I personally don't use a lot of forums. This is the only forum I belong too that doesn't have any downloads right on the forum/site. It may not be a big deal to us, well wouldn't be to me I don't have a website. But, Delphy and Kathy might see it a little different with all their downloads. We go to messing with Paysites, reporting everything they have on them that are copyrighten, they're going to push back. I don't want just a bunch of forums to post at. I like having downloads to snag.  :wink:

Technically Kathy would be safe.  Her copyright infringement is negligible simply because she personally is not receiving any money from it.  TSR on the other hand is.  Most artists have the standard my stuff don't steal without asking but many more have wizened up to the post with credit and don't earn money off it and I'm good.  It's the paysites we should hand over with all of their subway, mcdonalds, Bath & bodyworks stores.

I just don't see companies doing more than issuing a Cease & Desist to free sites. If it comes to it, I would help go through free sites and flag copyright issues to the owner NOT EA.

TSR will have to do it for themselves. Can you imagine the headaches EA would bring itself by partnering with them? I think they'll figure out that its just not worth it.

On this line of discussion: Could we/somebody/anybody please report ExnemSims for profiting off of Disney?  At least I think it's Disney.  Whatever Winnie the Pooh falls under.  But there are others, too.

Either way, they're SELLING the copyrighted character, in its exact representation, as a toy for the Sims.  You can only access it if you're a subscriber.  Meanwhile, they state on their front page: "All of the content at this site is completely original and of TOP QUALITY"

So why do they need to SELL Sim versions of copyrighted things like Spongebob, Winnie the Pooh, Shrek, Spiderman, Loony Toons, etc, etc.

I'm fairly certain that this IS illegal, since they're profiting off of it.  For the longest time, Eeyore/Igor/whatever was on the front page of their site, shown under the subscriber section.

I have no sympathy at all for EA, they did this to themselves. Sat back and did nothing for how long? Now that there is an awareness and the community is really at odds...They're running around going what do we do, what do we do? They should have nipped it in the butt when it first started, instead of turning their heads and going it's just one or two sites no harm. They allowed it to get out of control. And to me that's exactly what they did if you look at the dates on all the times this has been reported to them. I'm with Sherry I think EA is just going to let it continue like it has till Sims 3 comes out, unless it effects sales further.

Wow, I'm surprised Disney hasn't done something about it already. They are notorious for taking down anyone even thinking about infringing on their copyrights. They are most concerned about Mickey Mouse stuff though.

On a different note, I was talking to a friend about the whole paysite issue, because he's in law school studying to be an entertainment lawyer. He said that perhaps one of the reasons EA isn't doing anything is because they might lose. He referred me to a case in the 90s where Nintendo sued Game Genie for copyright infringement. Game Genie had created a device that plugged into Nintendo's gaming system and allowed users to enter multiple cheat codes and otherwise alter the game. This device had been reverse engineered directly from Nintendo's code, and was reliant on the Nintendo system to work at all. Nintendo lost. Twice. Game Genie went on to make a ton of money.

Just for the record, I think paysites are morally reprehensible, and I hope they are all destroyed. And I'm not sure if this case is actually relevant. But I thought I'd throw it out there, and see what others thought.

Pardon me if someone has already posted this.

http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/messages.php?threadID=6134fe0a997bb1d12255fce7195a7cbd&directoryID=2&startRow=1&openItemID=item.2,item.61,item.104,item.41,item.127,item.23#6f4e9dbfcebd6df26b64b9a71d301072

Basically, they are saying...hey! The EULA on the Content browser is the one you should refer to, and if you have a beef with it, see a lawyer. Now, I hope that applies to everyone. EA does indeed intend to distance themselves from the whole issue.

Ok someone else gets to call legal this time. I'm not doing it again. That's completely different then what they just told me two days ago that the content manager was that way because you couldn't create CC with it. There was no changes being made to the games EULA. Now she's saying there is.  If what she's saying is true EA is changing their minds more than I change my underpants and I change them everyday. lol

Same here, but it seems EA changes theirs every time Thomass at TSR craps his pants when he doesn't like something they do at EA games, which must be every hour on the hour...

I got an email response to my question from Spada in Customer Service THIS MORNING which said to go by the actual EULA that is in the game or tool that I have.

My friend who is a Disney Stockholder, reported Exnem several weeks ago. He said the person is ussually quite busy and it takes a while for them to respond. As soon as he hears back I will let you know. But EXNEM has been reported I know more than once for this. Does he have permission to use copyrighted video games for his arcade series, movie posters, sesame street all thats in violation.


As far as the post on the BBS I have written the EFF. If others would write they may help our cause as filesharing is their specialty. Write here;
information@eff.org
If you dont know what they do who they are check this out:
http://www.eff.org/about/

You know, it just sounds like they are starting to break down. Like they are getting so many calls and emails that most of them are following what I'm sure is the party line "refer to the EULA, then to their own attorney". Some actually give a crap and are, you know, answering, but as themselves with their own opinions and not as EA employees.

Telling people to ask their own attorneys is ridiculous. The small site owners don't have attorneys and very well aren't going to pay the godawful fees to make an inquiry. The big ones (TSR) I'm sure already have one on staff/retainer. The sheeple...come on, now. You expect a 12-year old with a reasonable inquiry to have an attorney.

Just answer the freaking question, already! I'm seriously tempted to just write the EA legal department and say:

<begin fictitious email>
Hi sweetie! Listen, I know you are getting this question over and over and are right sick of it. But we're awfully confused, and the poor sheep don't know which way to go. I'm going to make this as easy as possible for you, ok?

1. Paysites [ ] OK   [ ] Not OK
2. SimPE/CEP [ ] OK  [ ] Not OK
3. Redistributing pay files without site-owner's permission in a free manner with credit to the creator [ ] OK  [ ] Not OK  [ ] You didn't hear it from me, but go ahead
4. EA will do something concrete about this whole paysite/freesite madness [ ] Before Sims3/Spore [ ] With Sims3/Spore [ ] When monkeys fly out of my butt
</end fictitious email>

Actually, you know, I think I will. If anything, it will make them laugh.

Karminger said;
Telling people to ask their own attorneys is ridiculous. The small site owners don't have attorneys and very well aren't going to pay the godawful fees to make an inquiry. The big ones (TSR) I'm sure already have one on staff/retainer. The sheeple...come on, now. You expect a 12-year old with a reasonable inquiry to have an attorney.


Exactly!!! So, that is why I wrote the EFF, and asked them for help with correctly interpeting the EULA, any help in general as i aprised them what was going on, and how was younger users supposed to know how to interpet the EULA.

I love your fictitious email.  :D  It made me lulz.  :lol:

ROFL! This reminded me of those kindergarten notes......"do you like me? Mark yes or no"  :lol:

Just sent them an email asking if they could help. Thanks for the link.

Well I am just going to continue playing and creating in the way that gives me the most pleasure.  If whatever I am doing offends a term of the EULA I shall leave the responsibility with EA to contact me and let me know.   That's probably what the paysites are thinking, too.

EA found a way to glide out of this whole disaster huh.  :roll: "We're not saying either is correct, just look for yourself, it's not our problem anymore"

Meh, I just got banned off 4 communities because I posted about PMBD months ago. I rather pissed, yes.

I still won't pay. It makes no sense. Also, I fear that many non-pay-sites will hopp on the must-pay-train.


Just as I was starting to like EA, I'm hating it again.  :roll:



BTW what about Pes? No doubt, there will be tons and tons of lawsuits be filed against PMBD as the I.P. rights belong to the creator (aka the paysites).

1. Then it doesn't even matter if there is a "new" EULA, because we can't agree to it, therefore we are not obligated to comply with it.  It is moot.

2. If this change is so "official", and applies to HomeCrafter, Bodyshop, and the Selling/Sharing of Sims 2 Content pay or free, post it on the front page of http://www.thesims2.ea.com.  Though because of reason #1, this is still moot.

For the two reasons above, I can't put any stock in what MaxoidDrea says, I'm sorry.  Especially given that various other people at EA say the complete opposite.

They need to either say something concrete or shut the hell up, if they really want to stay out of it.  By saying nothing they were able to sit on the fence, but now that various EA employees are saying different things, they're no longer sitting on the fence but running around like headless chickens.

ETA: Maybe someone local can call EA's Legal Dep't and ask again, AND mention what one of the "Maxoids" said.  It conflicts with what HawkGirl was told by Alex.  He said there to go by the Homecrafter and BodyShop EULAs and asked her "where she heard" some info, well now some Maxoids are spewing this out.  This is total crap.  Is Bon Voyage their last EP?  If not, it's not too late for them to sort this shit out and do the right thing by getting rid of paysites. They bring nothing but division, hate, and elitism to the Sims2 community.

With the new EULA EA of the Community added large damage, the Denunzierer (Slanderer) has now free travel.

I agree with this.  I don't plan on changing anything about what I am doing or how I create.   I would like one statement that is consistent from all of EA/Maxis, but for now it looks like EA is going to basically say that paysites are fine and there is a certain amount of intellectual property ownership for creators.   But, I also seriously doubt they will do anything about file sharing itself, no matter what they put on any EULA.  I cannot see them using expensive resources to come after file sharers here or at SFV.  As has been pointed out by many, it looks like they are going to allow the community to deal with this issue.

Why?  I can tell you what id going to happen right now.  You are going to hear:  "Oh nos the Maxoids are wrong, paysites are wrong, report their evilness if they are breaking copyright, and share freely."  Yet for some strange reasons Maxoids don't appear to be corrected, their incorrect information doth not disappear.

Sorry I am PMSing badly and I know and have heard from multiple reliable sources that places like TSR is getting a completely different answer.  If someone is going to contact EA, try contacting them as a paysite owner and see what they have to say.  Now that would be interesting.  Though unless you are TSR the answer will propbably be, talk to your lawyer.  Still, would be interesting enough to hear.

EA is not taking any stand.  At this point all we are doing is annoying them, which is at least what they deserve for not being able to give anyone (free sites and pay) a straight answer about anything.  Now I say ask away, but do not put too much stock into anything they say.  I'll rejoice when TSR is shut down and not before.

We'll be OK, Roxelane.  Truth be known, having EA on our side made me a little bit uncomfortable to begin with. I mean they have always been wishy-washy with regards to paysites, so there was always a sense of NOT being able to depend on them. Besides, it's much better to have your opponents out in the open.

By the way Tarox is one of the BEST sims sites EVER!

I'd like to believe that  at least  Will Wright supports filesharing, free custom content and not changing the EULA to kiss the ass of some fucktard and his groupies.

All this speculation, is just wheel spinning by both sides. We should all be contacting the EFF-ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION asking for their help. They are the folks that are fighting the RIAA and lots of other bigger fishes than Electric Arts. They are in EA's backyard San Francisco, and the same state which gives them a legal advantage, they now have a EU one too located conveniently in Switzerland in TSR's backyard. Two of us have writtten them so far, the more that write (email) the better chance we can get of them helping us. It would be better if lawyers on our behalf go to EA, rather than relying on some conversation with Alex. Alex who is he? Is he the head of legal? Please enlighten us Hawk Girl (sorry cant think of your user name) since you talked to him, you should of found out what his job position was there.In most big Corporations you have many employees with the same first name. Otherwise its kind of like we will be stuck in the mud with all this speculation from now until the EP following Bon Voyage, what the EULA really says. I really got the impression from the Maxoid that they were annoyed with pro and anti paysite folks squabbling.

Also I keep hearing in this thread, and S2C forum that the artist retains
Intellectual property rights nonsense. I published back several page what the official US Copyright office told me. Your CC package files are considered DERIVIATIVES you cannot copyright a deriviative. The EULA on EA's page really is vague, I would not jump to conclusions. But basically the practice is to be licensed to use a franchise or trademark commercially there is an exchange of money, and a contract.

EA is the only copyright holder and licensee, except if they used coding like from like an open source or something to build it. When you look on the TOU page they gave us several weeks back, no paysites were listed on there but their other partners. AS far as that EULA not everyone uses the CM or Homecrafter. Also it could be said that EA temporarily took out noncommercial to shut up both sides, pay and anti till they release the new EULA. The new draft could be more explicitly worded, and could go against pay content. NOW the problem is not everyone buys the new EP so how can they agree to it, the same with the Content Manager not everyone uses it. SOO this is pointless. They are trying to be stopped bugged on this issue on the Sims 2 site, so they gave something nuetral for the time being. In a court of law would the Content Manager eula hold up? I doubt it as not everyone uses it, its not the actual game software the one that came with the base pack that all players have to have. They would have to send the universal new eula in an email to all registered users, or put it up big on the front page FOR everyone to see and access not some little note from a maxoid. Thats just my opinion.

In one of the locked threads...where a Mute asked what was all the hubub about...the SM told her that the EULA for the Content Manager was not something the average simmer had to worry about. Of course, only  your REALLY average simmer even uses the Content Manager. I laughed and laughed.

I'm not getting in on this debate. As you can see from my post count, I'm a lurker. I won't state my side in this argument, so I'm sure that my opinion matters not. However, I won't lurk and allow completely false statements be passed off as truth and read and believed to be truth by the masses.



Where does U.S. copyright law say that you cannot copyright a derivative? Perhaps you cannot copyright a deriviative, but I don't know what that is.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html#derivative/

U.S. copyright law clearly states that:


"To be copyrightable ..." If you cannnot copyright a derivative, how could it ever be copyrightable? According to you, it cannot. According to U.S. copyright law, it can. If, and only if, it is different enough from the original work to be regarded as a "new work".

Now, I'll leave it up to you all to debate whether or not new Sims creations are different enough from the original work to be considered "new work". But I won't sit idly by and watch you say that you canot copyright a derivative when you absolutely, one hundred percent can copyright a derivative.

"A 'derivative work,' that is, a work that is based on (or derived from) one or more already existing works, is copyrightable if it includes what the copyright law calls an “original work of authorship.'"

That's in case you missed it the first time.

Wrong.

I'll post here what I posted at S2C.

They don't hold copyright over it until the original expires.

p. 43

Reference: Jankowich, A. E. 2005. Property and Democracy in Virtual Worlds Boston University Journal of Scientific and Technological Law.

http://www.bu.edu/law/scitech/volume11issue2/JankowichArticleWEB.pdf

Since they have exerted their copyright over EA files with the site disclaimer,



then all discussion about copyright is moot.  You can have it 50 years after the original author dies.

So wait. Who's right?  :?

WRIGHTS is the developer, EA wants determines the rules

@snarkyshark
thank you

Well, calalily quoted a book. I quoted U.S. copyright law. If you really want to know, RedLove, read both (and anything else you can find) for yourself.

However, I won't tell you that she is wrong the way that she (falsely) said that I was. Nothing in my post was wrong. Nothing I said was wrong. Soup Parrot said that you cannot copyright a derivative. I looked up U.S. copyright law and found that you can.

I never once said that you can copyright Sims files. Calalily interpreted my post to be as such, but that is not the case. I am not wrong. But I am not saying that she is, either. It is very probable that we are both right. However, the fact that you can copyright a derivative is not wrong.

You're right - I'm sorry - you can copyright derivatives - just not all derivatives.

I'm just trigger happy at the moment because everyone at S2C seems to think there is copyright over these things.  DreadPirateRoberts is giving general information, I am giving specific information to the Sims and online virtual property over which copyright has been asserted.

Sorry DPR. Forgive me. :D

I'm another lurker with an opinion,

This is how I interpret the New EULA.


With the Non-Commercial use now gone,

The .package ownership definition now gone,

you now own your own work and nobody has any rights whatsoever to fileshare it without your consent.

The New EULA states "Your License is limited to the intellectual property rights in the Software".


EA gives nobody (including themselves) the ownership of their work according to the new EULA, basically leaving that verdict up to a more general law - namely the inernational copyright law and EA's own Terms Of Use.


EA's Terms Of Use on this case clearly identifies the original author as the Intellectual Property holder and forbids you from uploading anything you do not own yourself to the Exchange or any other EA service.


The international copyright law grants you the Intellectual Property rights the second you've created an original piece of work.

B

Lurker my arse - you're for TSR.




That's not what it says - this is what it says in full:



It doesn't say anything about uploading, or downloading, and anyone who has visited the booty doesn't think that the lovely pirates here made this stuff.  Intellectual property doesn't mean total and complete control forever.

I'm just right now looking for some caselaw that states that derivative works from software are required to be stand alone objects in order to assert any rights over it, and that copyright subsists in software code.

Just give me a couple of hours, maybe a couple of days, and then you can disagree with the Ninth Circuit Court of the US.

If I remember correctly SimPlyB - you are a troll.  It is not necessary to put so many lines between your sentences.   I actually do not believe that anyone has a copyright on an Sims creations.  Whether derivative or not.  You must be specifically commissioned or employed in order to claim copyright.  Fansites are not employees of EA, nor are they "commissioned" to create.  It is a fansite, for fans of the Sims.

EDIT: International copyright...whatever.  Read the U.S. Copyright.  EA is a US corporation, publically traded, so all policies and laws regarding copyright will be under US guidelines.

CALALILY IS MY HERO!

I'm not going to pretend to know shite about the laws or pretend I know anything about the damn EULA.
But I'm going to says some things cuz I can. :lol:

It's quite obvious that this arguement about the EULA is going nowhere.
Everyone has their own 'interpretations' about it, and until EA finally clears it up, that's all they are is interpretations.
Opinions. They can be wrong.
You can spout it til the sun don't shine but when it comes down to it, that's all it is is an OPINION or INTERPRETATION.
Individually it will vary by the thousands.

US copyright law is not a stable thing. You can argue this or that but when it comes down to it it doesn't mean shit unless you have a case to back it up, as I believe Calalily did. There are exceptions to every rule, including laws, and if you don't agree with that you're a moron. Laws are under constant scrutiny and it's been proven over and over that judges can supercede certains aspects of them.

Until EA clears it up the arguement seems moot.
You can say this. We can say that. Until the fingers you type with are bone.
No one is right, no one is wrong. It's all how you look at it.
EA has the final say, not Calalily *no offense hun* not DPR not all the little lurking nobody's who decide to spout off at the mouth about anything.
EA holds the final say in their hands.

Why are they taking so long?
Who fucking knows? They're a huge company that has *more important things* to worry about, like $$. Some of you lurkers should be able to identify with that.
Honestly this company doesn't care about us. We're simply the consumers. As long as we buy and buy they could care more about dogshit. This debate is making them rich.
I really can't see them finally deciding one way or another until Sims 3 comes out.
The word changes in the EULA that everyone who supports paysites keeps jumping on...are simple word changes! Nothing there says sell your shite and make some cheddar. And if any one of you believes that's what it's saying, well then I got something for you:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mmekare79/smileys/bitchplease.gif)
The EULA didn't mean snot to you guys before. You claimed that it wasn't important. But now some words gets changed and it's the Holy fucking Grail! Um..hypocrisy anyone?
Bah.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mmekare79/smileys/LOSER_193.gif)

I am not here to argue, all I want is to be able to share my point of view without all the silly name calling you all like to do...

You obviously havent read EA's Terms Of Use, if you scroll down to Proprietary Rights; Copyrights and Trademarks http://legal.ea.com/legal/legal.jsp?language=en

B

So, clear it up for us SimPlyB - what side of the paysite/freesite issue are you on?

EDIT:  Ry you are fiesty today!  I like it.

*gives Ry some rum for tellin it like it is*

Ry can be feisty more. *waggles eyebrows*

And Simplyb <or however that's spelled>
Name calling isn't started until silly little bints get in on the action. If you get called a name, you probably deserve it. You can think as will of these guys, but I've been here a very short period of time and I already feel welcome.
If someone doesn't, it's usually because they come in trolling or saying things like.
"I'm going to get called a name, I know cuz you all like to call people names" :roll:
Well, that's 12. And yes, if someone says something like that or similar to that in any way shape or form....people here call it like it is. :wink:

I did read it. It applies to the Exchange. Your point being...?

So don't argue. I don't force you to post - but hey, if you consider being called "for TSR" an insult, I won't disagree.



You obviously didn't read what I wrote - if you can't copyright it then there is no IP, no copyright.  Right now I'm reading a case that proves my point, talks about substantial use of software code - and once I'm done and know fully what it says, you can read it.  I'll give anyone the link who asks me, I'll post it on s2c, once I know all that it says and that it is en pointe.

So Ry, why do you think they changed it?
This is a pretty big thing to do and they hardly do it just because they like to change some words around.
And of all the things they could have changed they chose to change the noncommercial bit.

What do you make out of it?

That they don't want to lose customers or be in the middle of a fight - simple as that.

EA has been complete up front about THAT at least. Would that the TSR trolls (yes, I am talking about you, "Never got no head, even though a little would problably clear my mind") would realize that. But still. Nohead? SimplyB? One word. Yawn.

Ehm, i know that you know this so why don't you get it?
They changed the EULA. This is it, nothing more to wait for.
Is it because it's not in the pirates favor you refuse to comprehend?

*sigh*

Um, from what I understand, they changed the damn thing to a piece of software that doesn't help create custom content, if what I read over at another forum you posted on is true, nohead, so shaddup! It doesn't affect the custom content. Jesus H. Christ, what the hell is it with trolls and Sundays? Don't get me going, you won't like me any better than you have before. It's been a bad weekend so far and I'm just itching to unload on an idiot and if you keep standing there with your dick hanging out, I'm gonna smack you with a two by four and see if it can shrivel up any more than it already is! Wanna know what happened? Suuuuure, I'll tell you! One of my childhood heroes, my oldest brother died yesterday after a thirty-eight year fight against Machado-Joseph disease. Don't know what it is? Look it up, lardbucket. My family in general is treating me like shit, the other siblings, and this is my second period in eighteen days! So, word to the wise, if you don't have anything intelligent to say, get the fuck out of here until you can make sense! Just, shut the fuck up already!

Uh sorry, from what I've read of the new EULA it's not in anyone's favour, and not against anyone's favour either. It is certainly not against the pirates! As well, it still notes that creators do not have control over EA's licenses or copyrights (ahem, code, for example). Like Calalily said, looks like they just want to remove themselves from the argument for financial reasons.

Edit: Thanks for the reminder, Paden. As it hasn't been applied to any product that actually creates content as yet, the old EULA is in effect still.

Well, nohead,  :roll:
God it's hard to resits that temptation.


First of all, no matter what words they took out or changed, it still doesn't say it's okay to sell their content. And it is their content. You can't make things for the Sims 2 without the game and it's come-in-the-package objects, so...I don't know what you're getting at.
You can't scoff at the EULA one day then praise it to the skies the next without becoming the biggest hypocrite in the world. No matter WHAT they've changed or left out or inserted.
I don't study the EULA, I've read it, but I'm not a legal expert and I don't want to be one. Even on this issue. That's not my forte'. But I'm a very intelligent person, much more than you may think, and I'm no fool that mama raised, cuz she didn't raise them.
So let's just say this to simple it down for you:
1. EA doesn't care about us anymore than any other company does about their consumers. All they care about is selling their product and that's that. They don't want to alienate ANY of us, the filesharers OR the paysite owners. That would lose them buisness. So this little change in the EULA is more fuel for the fodder.
2. Ry thinks you're a pain her ass and you've got it out to get her goat for some reason.
3. EA will not go completely to one side or the other until Sims 3. I've said all this before why can't you people read?!?!?!?! Once they have a new game, they can allow or disallow paysites without the hassle of this. Because then it will be over, right? Sims 2 will be done and the get rich quick schemers will be onto the next game. Therefore all the arguing about this will be wasted breath and finger strength. If EA decides to say it's legal for paysites to sell stuff, then we'll all have to deal with that. But they haven't said it yet, and I don't think they ever will for the Sims 2, so...
4. I am wholeheartedly an idealist. I believe if enough people try to change the world, we will.
And this is what I want: Real Community.
I love this game. It makes my day sometimes. I'm a stay-at-home mom *with a part-time gig* I don't get out much other than for work and grocery shopping. I have a nine-year old, a one year-old and a 28 year old who trash my house. My time is spent cleaning, taking care of my children and all the other mommy things.
BUT when I get time for me, I play the Sims.
When I first entered this community I thought I would find a bunch of other people who loved the game just like me. I never expected to find a bunch of greedy bints selling content they don't own the rights too.
To me, this community should be free and simple.
I make something, I give it to you and you give it and it gets given and given until everyone who wants it has it. Everyone is included, no one feels left out because they're not *cool* enough or *rich* enough.
It's wrong to take a game, which in some cases is the only enjoyment people have, and turn it into a profit making scheme.
I also play other games. Oblivion is one. No one in THAT community tries to sell stuff. It's shared freely to enhance the games of others and THAT creates a community!
Look at the world around you.
Money creates chaos.
If you're rich, you're here. If you're poor, you're down there. *i'm from the hill and you're from the valley*
That's not fair.
And to take a GAME and introduce money into the equation creates that same class distinction. You're either rich enough to pay or too poor and shit out of luck.
Why is that right?
I paint and had a friend make them into sims paintings. They're available at SFV under mmekare's paintings if anyone wants them.
Anyways, this is my REAL work.
I painted these pictures at home with my own two hands, a couple paintbrushes and paint. I can hold it, turn it and lick it if I want to. It's *real*. But I've got them simmized and they're out there for free and I'm sharing my own personality by sharing them.
I paint my soul.
And you can have a piece of that, for free. And you can do what you want with it, give it away, share it whatever.
The real theives are those who say I MADE THIS when they didn't.
The real theives are the ones who want to make thousands of dollars off a website that offers objects et al. for download that wouldn't EXSIST without:
a. The game I already bought.
b. The objects I already bought when I bought the game.
and
c. The [programs people like Delphy etc...made to MAKE the CC and GAVE it away for FREE.

So there, that's what I've got to say right now on the matter.
If it didn't answer your questions, well suck it up. I've answered that very question in the post you pulled the quote from and I won't be explaining it anymore.

But I've got one thing left to say, Nohead.
For you.
The next time you buy a game, other than the Sims...immerse yourself into that community.
You'll see freely given mods, freely given everything. And no one left out to feel like shit. No one getting rich on the hard work of others. No huge inner conflicts about anything other than who fights better or whatever, depending on the game.
What you will see is this:
A real community where the only drama comes from 12 year olds.
People talking and sharing everything freely and without any type of class distinctions.
Like I said, a REAL community.

I am so sorry about your brother, Paden. May your brother finally be at peace, and may you find some, too. I will light a candle for him.

First off, how would you register your deriviative package. There is no copyright form. The above works that you mentioned, stand on their own. The flaw in your argument is once the content is put into a package file it cannot stand on its own. It solely relys on being in the game to be used, that is why its a deriviative. The statement I posted was from a direct question regarding this to the US Copyright office, the quote was exactly their answer. Its not the same thing as the above types of examples listed. If I bought a book, or a CD I could play these withought using the others. I can do nothing with a package file outside the game, it is no use to me.

Paden, have a read here (http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/messages.php?threadID=6134fe0a997bb1d12255fce7195a7cbd&directoryID=2&startRow=1&openItemID=item.2,item.43,item.61,item.104,item.41,item.127,item.23).
I'm really sorry about your brother!

Nohead, we've actually heard quite the oposite from other EA sources as well. As per usual, they haven't got all of their ducks in a row. Sounds more like that was posted to keep EULA fights from starting on the BBS.

Mando, no offense but i think you are in serious denial  :lol:
Do you seriously think they are allowed to post that unless it's true?
Do you have any official statement stating the opposite or are you referring to HawkGirls' daydreaming?

And we all know that the maxoids have a direct pipeline to the law office? That is just what they think it means, not the word from the head man himself. Until we get that, with a cease and desist from EA legal, this debate is still going. The maxoids have a history of being on the side and in the pockets in some cases, of the paysites. Until we are represented equally, they're talking out their asses. Plus, the person who is that maxoid name could change next week, as could their views. Nope, give me a certified letter from the head of EA Legal and the company and maybe then, MAYBE, I will believe. Til then, my cannons are loaded and waiting the match and got plenty of powder and shot.

nohead they even say it won't be in until the ep after Bon Voyage - which is presumably their last one - so it certainly won't effect their sales much.

Not to mention you can't make a contract someone agreed to and then make all kinds of changes to it.  As it stands, paysites are breaking their current EULA, and will be when they do it with Bon Voyage.

Now argue with the US Courts.

U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals: MICRO STAR v FORMGEN INC

In this case, FormGen (the software creators of DukeNukem) were in litigation over an user who created new levels for the game and sold them.

Found here http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/9656426.html Bold mine.

Concerning the derivative work argument:



You have their consent in the form of the EULA. You cannot claim it is a derivative work.

On charging:



This is totally enpointe, and what the law says about these things.  I'm sure a lot of paysite supporters will ignore this, but that's fine.  It can't possibly be clearer.

Yep, absolutely I think they are allowed to post things that are not officially true, and their posts are oftentimes influenced a great deal by their own opinions. This is why I didn't make specific reference to any of the other things we have heard, as I consider them equally rumour based and speculative.

The Maxoid's job is to keep things on the BBS running smoothly (well, try to, anyway), and not to be entirely up-to-date on legalities and legal matters. I don't consider a Maxoid post to be an authoratative or legally binding expression (as Maxoids can change from week to week, as can their opinions) I consider it a way to control the behaviour of posters on their boards. Like what we've heard from the other side, they are just opinions.

You should probably lay off the ad hominem as well in future posts.

So that BBS post is just an opinion? Bearing no more weight than the speculation and theories in the community? :roll:
I don't think there is any point in me trying to get through here, you obviously don't want to see what is right in front of you.

See how good it was what I wrote - IGNORED! I win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is right in front of me here is an idiotic fucknut who will not get it through his head that the changed EULA is for software that DOES NOT MAKE CUSTOM CONTENT! It's been said that it effects the whole thing, which is bullshit. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with content created for the video game. The program it covers has nothing to do with it. The changed EULA is for that, not the game nor the programs used to make content. Dammit.... my head hurts...

Paden I think I just got a crush on you.

Ha, ha, ha! He/she ignored my original post too, if it makes you feel any better Calalily. It's much easier to pick and choose the arguments that you want to answer (especially if some of those arguments actually have documentation and proof attached, eep!)

Plus, I'm still not sure how thinking that the posts of Maxoids don't equate facts (especially one that makes such a legally untenable point) counts as a black mark against me. Of course, I'm foolish enough to believe that the new EULA doesn't actually give paysites any more power than they had before.

I like it when they ignore me - that means they don't have anything to say about it other than "Sorry, you're right - I'm wrong."  Love it   :D

It would be very nice if cretins such as this could distinguish the difference between charisma and crass stupidity. Charisma makes a person wish to draw closer and get to know you better. Crass stupidity makes a person wish to rip your head from your neck and shit down the resulting hole. The former is what the trolls lack. The latter is what they display in such abundance that it makes you wonder if some villagages are missing their idiots. In that case, they really need to go back home before some poor deluded people decide to report them missing. I for one, would not miss them, but seeing as some people don't know real entertainment unless it bites them on the ass, well, I'd say we've deprived them on their idiots long enough. Go home!

Oh well, just for the sake of taking away that victory of yours :P.
I see that you have returned from your little trip to the virtual worlds and are  now back with us, i was a little worried we would loose you there ;).

You are quoting from a lawsuit taking bits that suits you trying to prove, well what exactly?
Still trying to find a way to say that what you're doing here is perfectly legal or what?
The pirates have no interests to protect here, it up to EA to protect their interests, so i don't know what you're trying to achieve with all of this.

No you're not - you haven't addressed what was said there.



It's already legal - you're the one who is saying it isn't - with nothing but a change to make paysites included in the EULA to back you up.



You're so right - and since they're the only ones with interests, as that caselaw proves, then paysite owners don't have interests to take away now do they?

Nor have they removed the right to fileshare.

You're fucked now unless you can come up with caselaw.  :lol:

Take the win, and be proud.  :D  Good, relevant info is always ignored, or danced around, so I've noticed.
Besides, totalitarian TSR groupies, I don't need no steenking EULA to know that paysites are shit, and to say as much.  Like Ry, I'm currently playing a game that has a real community, with user made mods and info, all freely shared.  It's reprehensible to charge for user made content, period.  If you don't think so, then try charging for content in another gaming community.  I dare you.  I'll wait.

nOhead :shock: you dont understand do you. WHEN a lawyer is going to go to court, he researches similiar cases etc, rulings and all. The prosecutor the judge, they all look at this. The judge doesnt go back and rule on his feelings, he may read up as well.

Soupie I'm glad you and Cala know what you are talking about. It's just really sad that people can be so delusional to think that no matter what proof that's given they will forever be right. Also, what do you expect from a person who claims to have nohead?

You were making arguments based on the legalities of paysites (and by comparision, the illegalities of our position), so Calalily was kind enough to provide you with some cogent examples that proved her own point. See, Calalily was actually supporting her argument instead of couching it in logical fallacies. Furnish us with some equally applicable case law and facts (and not random quotes from the Maxoid of the week) and we'll probably start taking you a little more seriously.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you about what we're trying to achieve as it has been written out and spoken of here and elsewhere countless times, and I'm sure you are well aware of it (much as you claim not to be).

Gee, we're trying to keep people from getting ripped off! It sucks to know that people shell out hard earned cash for shit that looks like it came from a toxic waste site once you get it installed into your game, and it's not an inferior graphics card. Don't fuck with my cala! She knows a great deal more about the law and ethics than I think you ever learned in school. From what I've been told by someone who has made hacks and such, the .package file is part of the fucking game engine. As such, it is copyrighted and cannot in any part be sold. Guess what you have to have in order to make the pretty and not-so-pretty pixels work in your game? Why, that's riiiiiight, grasshopper, you have to have the .package file, which a company owns the rights to. They say that you can't earn bucks based off the sweat of their balls, which is what paysites are doing. Taking a copyrighted item known as the .package file, adding their own shit to it and trying to say they own the whole thing. I don't think so. The bulk of that file belongs to EA because the .package file format takes up a good 75% of it. Hmph! Makes me wonder if maybe the paysites oughtn't to be turning over $.75 per every $1.00 of content sold? Think the paysites would go for it? I doubt it, that's alot for them to swallow. So is the idea of expecting the unsuspecting simmer when being asked to pay for content that isn't up to company standard. In other words, if you think they have a right to ask for money, they can take their perfectly bleached dental work and apply it to my backside. If you need a translation, they can bite my ass!

Cala, let's make beautiful babies together. I wuw you.  :lol:

Yes I would love to make babies with you too :Pescado-needs-a-suggestive-smilie:

 :roll:
I have better things to do than trying to find lawsuits just to win an argument with you mate :).

I'm not following your logic here though.
IF EA wants to they can easily find a way to make paysites stop selling custom content considering they have a whole legal department, i don't think they need your help with it.
That legal conflict would be between the paysites and EA, pirates not invited.

In that BBS post it is clearly stated that they have changed the EULA but couldn't include it in time for the next EP.
It is the creators that needs to agree to the new EULA, it doesn't matter what you do.

Meaning I'm right and you're wrong.



IF EA wants to they can easily find a way to make filesharing here stop. I don't think they need your help with it.

Now that was Priceless!   :D

Alia, you're going to have to fight with me, because now I want to have Calalily's babies. :lol:

I don't think they claim the package to be 100% theirs?
And how does any of this make it any % yours?

Oh and a friendly note, i think that your rants would be even better if you added some whitespace to it for readability. :)

HMMMM well I think it matters to Cala since she has her own free site.

No, but perhaps i have more of a life than you do? THAT is just speculation though :P.


It's not in their interest to do that, why should they?

Awwww, someone is cranky and needs to take a nap! Go way, you're not getting anywhere here unless it is the brat factor. I'd slap you but I do try to be kind to those with a mentality that would be better off suited to playing in a play pen, but to each his own. Bleh.
(http://www.lolcats.com/images/u/07/30/lolcatsdotcomj0m377tib9alvdel.jpg)

Yes but it's not her creation were are talking about here is it?

NO MORE AD HOMINEM! (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html) That is the lazy man's (or woman's) way of making an point. It does not support the argument, it only supports making you look like a jerk. There is no point bothering to argue something if you won't bother to find out info to support your own side and have to rely on baseless insults. Give some reading to the other fallacies there as well please, if you're commiting any of them regularly (and you are) you might has well be spitting all over any points you make.

Maxis used to be an independent entity, and capable of setting policy and deciding how Sims-related issues could be resolved.

I'm going to yoink some data from Wikipedia to explain my comments, so consider much of the more technical / business-related data to be Wikidata.

Maxis is no longer an independent entity. Maxis Software is an American company that was founded as a video game developer and is now a brand name of Electronic Arts (EA).  After the immense success of SimCity, Maxis attempted to go into new areas. However, their new games, including The Crystal Skull and SimCopter, were commercial failures. They also acquired Cinematronics to create a game called Crucible. Heavy losses and lack of direction led Maxis to begin considering acquisition offers. For many years, Maxis was a traditional studio located in Walnut Creek, California (and before that, Orinda, California), but in February 2004 the division was folded into EA's Redwood Shores headquarters. EA absorbed them, and now is the only entity that has any legal, useful, relevant impact or decision-making power when it comes to the Sims properties. Currently, the company's most successful products are sports games published under their EA Sports label, games based on popular movie licenses and games from long-running franchises like Need for Speed, Medal of Honor, The Sims, Command & Conquer and the later games in the Burnout series.

The Sims are but one of their many properties, they probably do not sell nearly as well as their EA Sports games, and EA has further shaken things up by shuffling departments into four divisions (Hecubus posted about this in an earlier thread, so I won't repeat all that info). Not only are The Sims a relatively new property for EA, they are also a new department, and EA is learning how to deal with a new customer demographic with different concerns.

(I believe The Sims are the only games EA publishes that encourage modifications and custom content, but I am not entirely certain about that. If I am right, however, the problem of paysites disregarding the EULA and illegally profiting off EA's Intellectual Property is a new issue for them, and one that will require observation, input from the community, research and legal discussion to sort out.)

EA is also dealing with other, bigger problems than a comparatively minor Sims-related squabble. Whereas Maxis had The Sims (and pretty much JUST the Sims) to deal with, EA does not focus solely on the Sims property. Our disgruntlement with paysites does not compare with other problems they are dealing with:

* Wikipedia scandal. On August 15, 2007 it was revealed that IP addresses registered to EA had made changes to their Wikipedia entry favoring EA. The changes made included downplaying the importance of the founder of EA, Trip Hawkins, as well as playing up the importance of the new (at the time) CEO, Larry Probst. Other changes included attempts to remove information regarding the infamous EA Spouse scandal, which involved the poor treatment of workers. In other words, EA was far more concerned with what Wiki readers might think about known issues than what customers might think about game community issues. They already have your money for the Sims games, you know. By being a part of the community, you are a PAST customer, and not a guaranteed NEW source of income. They may become more responsive when they are ready to promote Sims 3, as that will gather a new community. Note how much attention they pay to Sims 1 players. In part, this is because they were not involved at all with Sims 1, that was solely a Maxian baby. However, they now own Maxis, and have not felt an urge to continue to deal with Sims 1 issues. This isn't unusual or even expected, but don't be surprised to find EA losing even more interest in Sims 2 and its community the closer the time to release Sims 3 comes.

* The EA Spouse Blog Scandal, referred to above, which revealed how EA workers were mistreated. If they don't treat their employees' concerns and well-being seriously, and these are people actively contributing to their profit margins, then how seriously do you think they take your concerns and problems? Unless you demonstrate that ignoring your concerns will hurt them in their wallet, they do not give a crap.

* M-Rated Game Moralistic Stances and Declining EA Stock Value. Following the departure of Trip Hawkins, Larry Probst took over the reins and led the company to its current size and stature. Probst considered himself a man of principle and has refused to follow the M-rated example set by Take Two Interactive, whose violent Grand Theft Auto franchise became the dominant brand in many key demographics from 2000 through 2003. As a result, Probst was heavily criticized by Wall Street analysts, who believe that because of this policy, EA's stock price is lower than it should be (though it has maintained a general upward trend in recent years). In late March 2005, Electronic Arts issued its first ever mid-quarter profit warning blaming hardware shortages and lower than expected fourth quarter sales. While Probst was in charge, you might have been able to complain about M- and AO-rated custom content and get some kind of response, though it would probably be a pat-you-on-the-head dismissal done solely to be placating, and their response would have hurt freesite creators just as much as paysite creators, as both make adult content.

* Staffing Upheavals. On February 1, 2006, Electronic Arts announced that it would cut worldwide staff by 5 percent. Logically, this means that "acquired company (like Maxis) employees" were probably let go before "EA employees" and thus  some of the people who might have been around long enough to know what was going on with regard to Maxis/EA issues are probably gone, and new people are probably not motivated to stick their necks out to address a volatile issue within the user community of one of EA's most profitable new acquisitions. Instead, Maxoid focus is going to be "make more money for EA" and/or "don't get laid off too".

* Maxis is not the only new acquisition, nor the most recent. On June 20, 2006 EA purchased Mythic Entertainment, currently working on Warhammer Online. If WO is moddable, and if paysites spring up, then MAYBE that will further encourage EA to address Sims paysite issues, but otherwise the only effect this has on our community is that EA's attention is further divided, and the newest baby is always the most exciting and interesting baby.

* Upheaval at the highest levels of management. In February 2007, Probst stepped down from the CEO job while remaining on the Board of Directors. His handpicked successor is John Riccitiello, who had worked at EA for several years previously, departed for a while, and then returned. Riccitiello previously worked for Elevation Partners, Sara Lee and Pepsico. In other words, the big boss has no experience dealing with game modding issues. Again, an issue for the legal department, and their IP hassles probably are focused more on, say, bootleg Pepsi logo T-shirts being sold in Asia and similar issues, not less clear-cut IP problems that involve defining exactly where EA's IP stops and meshers/Photoshoppers/modders IPs begin. As it stands, all your content are belong to EA Games, but their focus is going to be on making a decision that makes them the most money. Again, it behooves us to point out the aspects of paysite shittiness that potentially costs EA money or potentially drives away paying customers. If Bon Voyage capitulates to paysites, as they seem to think it might, then our response needs to be prompt and visible: to refuse to buy any more Sims 2 products, and any potential Sims 3 products, as well as any other EA titles. I don't know that the community at large has the discipline to avoid buying new shinies long enough to make that kind of protest, though.

* Expansion to Other Gaming Platforms / OSes. Also, in 2007, EA announced that it would be bringing some of its major titles (such as Madden 08, Need for Speed: Carbon, etc.) to the Macintosh. Again, another case of their attention being focused on things other than what is, to them, a very minor problem that is restricted to only one of their properties.

* EA is typically more concerned with a quick profit than customer satisfaction or game quality. EA is often criticized for buying smaller development studios primarily for their intellectual property assets, and then making the developers produce run-of-the-mill games on these same franchises. For example, Origin-produced Ultima VIII: Pagan and Ultima IX: Ascension were developed quickly under EA's ownership, and these two are considered by many as not up to the standard of the rest of the series. Can you say Stuff Packs? I knew you could.

* EA is known for punishing new acquisitions for poor decisions made by EA. EA is also criticized for shutting down its acquired studios after a poorly performing game. Many see EA's control and direction as being primarily responsible for the game's failure rather than the studio. Magic Carpet 2 was rushed to completion over the objections of designer Peter Molyneux and it shipped during the holiday season with several major bugs. This problem is no doubt a bit familiar to Sims players. If The Sims was shipped without egregious game-wrecking bugs, then modders like Pescado wouldn't be kept so busy unfuxx0ring said bugs. Maxoids are no doubt aware of EA's punitive policies towards purchased studios' employees in the past, and are likely to say almost anything to avoid becoming a thorn in EA's side. If that means appeasing some irritated paysite people or placating angry BBS people or telling some pirates what they want to hear, then Maxoids will do it. As a result, you need to take what they say with a lot of skepticism and rely on EA and EA's legal team to define what is really going on or what policy will be (or, in fact, what policy IS). Maxoids are not going to be a useful resource.

* Did we mention that EA is Trigger-happy? EA has also received harsh fire from labour groups for their dismissals of large groups of employees during the closure of a studio. Such was the case with the game GoldenEye: Rogue Agent. If you don't know the official EA party line, but want to keep your job, and your job is handling BBS and tech support problems, you are going to say just about anything to keep customers happy. So Maxoid A will say to pirates that paysites are the devil, and Maxoid B will tell paysites that no decisions have been made yet, which paysites no doubt interpret as "carry on, my wayward son" because to interpret it otherwise cuts into THEIR profits. I mean, duh.

* EA is not that great at providing support as it is. After releasing many semi-finished products, the lack of support is notable in many games, assured by the fact that EA declared openly that they would no longer support relatively new but still buggy titles, like Need for Speed: Most Wanted, Need for Speed: Underground and some of the latest Command and Conquer games- though in defence of EA, the latest Command & Conquer game, Tiberium Wars has been given 6 patches in just over 4 months, and EALA have guaranteed at least two more patches, bringing the future total up to 8, which many consider a vast improvement over past efforts. Quickly, now, describe the issues Sims users have had with late patches, crappy patches, patches that need patches, patches that undo previously patched issues and reinstate old problems, patches that create new and irritating problems, and so on. Apparently we should consider ourselves lucky we get patches and support at all, given EA's spotty record when it comes to fixing games that were shipped in a buggy, fuxx0red state.

* EA is known for saying one thing and doing another. Electronic Arts announced it would not support the Sega Dreamcast unless it sold 1 million units. When this happened within a record 90 days, EA went back on their word and declined to support the Dreamcast in favour of Sony's PlayStation 2.

* EA is motivated solely by the bottom line, and their bottom line alone. EA has also been criticized for other aggressive business methods like the acquisition of 19.9 percent of shares of their competitor Ubisoft in what was called a "hostile act" by Ubisoft CEO, Yves Guillemot. Right now, their bottom line is not as financially sound as they would prefer, their stock value is less than it was expected to be, and they have other fish to fry when it comes to public opinion and customer / community complaints.

As has been pointed out, Maxis has been "demoted" to babysitting the illiterate 12 year olds at the BBS, at least where The Sims are concerned, and even the nicknames do not always represent one individual. Maxis employees do not represent EA legally and are probably  just as confused as non-formerly-EA-associated individuals.

There have been several cases where a Maxoid has given poor advice, either because it is flat out wrong, or because they were struggling to guess what EA policy might be. They have been wrong about problems with the games, about game content, and about how to fix problems with the game. Since Maxis is no longer separate from EA, the wise thing for Maxoids to do would be to refer problems to the correct department at EA, but adding the extra step and delay to getting a user's question answered or problem resolved is probably anathema for Maxoids who used to be a part of setting policy and having their comments and opinions have more official status and weight.

Some Maxoids take a minimalist / hands-off policy on the BBS and only moderate if harsh or abusive or profane language is used, others strive to zorch even the mildest disagreements. The only thing you can count on is that they will say anything to make their BBS user wrangling less of a headache, either because they actually think it is correct, based on how things were before they were incorporated into EA, or to make squeaky wheels go away and leave them alone more quickly. If the primary power Maxoids have left these days is herding unruly users on the BBS, it behooves them to do whatever they can to maintain the peace. A peaceful BBS full of shiny, happy sheeple indicates that they are doing their job well, in their mind. A BBS full of fights over paysites and EULAs, much of which will only confuse and agitate the 12-year-olds, is not something a Maxoid would want to deal with, and an unruly BBS full of unhappy customers would imply that Maxis is not handling their duties well.

 In the end, you are asking employees of a huge company to explain the legal opinion of the parent company before the parent company has finished sorting that out themselves. It is like asking someone in MySpace's abuse department to tell you why Time-Warner is dragging its heels about announcing a needed clarification in one of its policies. Time-Warner bought out MySpace, and MySpace employees still know how to resolve MySpace-specific and abuse- or usage-related questions, but they can't tell you how or even if Time-Warner is planning on changing the legal Terms Of Use information you click "I agree" to when you sign up for a MySpace account. Someone at MySpace can't tell you about any movie or television projects T-W may be involved in either.

It is a similar situation with Maxis. Maxis is used to dealing with The Sims in a particular way, and it is normal and understandable that some Maxis employees would assume that the old Maxis way still applies, especially if they are not fully aware of the community-disrupting issue about paysites and people defying the EULA to make a buck they are not legally allowed to make. This does not mean that their advice about legal matters at EA is worthwhile.

The EULA for products that have nothing to do with custom content creation can, and probably should, remove the "non-commercial" part, because it never did apply to those specific tools. The only change they made was to make the EULA make more sense when applied to tools that can not be used in a commercial way in the first place. EULAs that are relevant to the paysite problem are EULAs for tools that actually can be used to create custom content, and to the game itself. (For more information on this, see Calalily's comments and translated legalese.)

We are used to taking Maxoid comments as gospel because The Sims was their product before EA bought them out. Now The Sims belong to EA, and EA is going to futz around and drag their feet as long as they can before finally addressing the problem, if they ever do. Again, anything that cuts into potential profit is going to get more attention and energy directed at it. Appeasing a community of PAST (and current) customers is not going to rank as high as dealing with FUTURE customers, and improving their bottom line, and selling FUTURE game units from ALL their divisions and game titles and series.

What we do have to go on is a very clearly worded EULA that only the dimmest and most greedy arsehole can possibly manage to misinterpret in any way, a EULA that does NOT ALLOW commercial profit to be made off of EA's goodies or IP, a EULA that states that once something is made compatible with their game engine and code it belongs to EA and can't be sold, and we also have new games coming out that make custom content exchange either automatic or extremely simple (I believe someone commented that they played an EA game that allowed custom mapped terrains, and that merely playing against someone who had mappable terrain they did not yet have caused the new custom content to automagically be exchanged).

It doesn't surprise me that EA's legal department would be taking their time to get back to us, because they are no doubt confused that anyone with an IQ over room temperature could possibly be confused by the current EULA and pulling their hair out in frustration and asking, "damn, how much more clearly do we have to write it? Are most Sims players really THAT retarded? Do we need to use pictures and graphs and monosyllabic words?" Hey, lawyers hate monosyllabic words. They aren't nearly fancy enough. :P

Whatever! This is just one person's opinion. Take it or leave it. I could care less.

(And with this, I pass the Flame The Stupid baton back to Paden. Tag, you're it.)

So now i'm required to go and find a lawsuit that supports my arguments?
I don't think calalily is being reasonable so i didn't give her a very serious reply.

Yes actually, you are. If you are unwilling to support your arguments with supporting documentation, then there is no point making them. Sorry. You may feel that Calalily is being brusque, but at least she is actually going to the trouble to find support for what she says.

Thanks to Lorelei for giving everyone the heads-up on EA history! There is actually probably even more stuff you could add, but that was an excellent summary.

Honestly, do you read anything at all?  You just said, in your own post, that they couldn't include the new EULA.

Now, listen very carefully: if they cannot include the "new EULA" in Bon Voyage - what is there for creators to agree to?

It doesn't matter, even if they DID include it in Bon Voyage.  At this point in time, they cannot make a change to the EULA that everyone can agree to.  The only thing that we all had to agree to was The Sims 2 base game.  You cannot regulate who agreed to what after that, because some people don't have any EPs, some have only a few, etc.

This "new EULA" is NOT in place  for Bodyshop or Homecrafter - it is only in place for things that cannot make custom content.

The only effect a new EULA has on pirates, paysite owners, etc, is for the NEXT version of The Sims: The Sims 3.

As Calalily said - we are all working under the EULA given to us when we installed the Base game.  All of us.  Therefore, paysites ARE in violation of that.  The EULA we ALL agreed to, is posted on the front page of this site, in case you need to read it again.

Finally, it doesn't matter what the Maxoid said.  As I said in my post on page 15, which you conveniently seemed to ignore.  That's okay, I'll post it again for you:

nohead, if I had my druthers right now, I'd be paddling your ass along side of my son, both of you are behaving as if you need binkies and naps, as well as diaper changes.
Truth of the matter is that the changed EULA belongs not to the game, nor something that is used to a program used to make cusom content, so doesn't apply to what is going on here.
The fact that the paysites exist is my concern because the fuckers are, for the most part, rip off artists that grow like a tick on the simmers who don't know better, getting fat on their money until they can get no more and drop off to lie bloated and satisfied until the next poor idiot comes by.
Tell me, wouldn't you save someone from spending money when you knew they were going to get ripped off and sent them somewhere that they could get the same or better quality? You'd do it for your mom or grandmother, right?
So, why shouldn't you do it for a complete stranger? Kindness begins when you hold out your hand even though it could get broken. We hold out our hands to help those who can't afford what they shouldn't have to pay for in the first place. File sharing is good. Paying for custom content is baaaaaaaaaaaaaad, unless of course you are a sheep, but hey, even sheep don't deserve to get fleeced constantly.

So many babies to have! I'm gonna be on my back forever.  :lol:



I venture that you have less of a brain.  Took me 20 minutes to find a case enpointe.  



No, it's not.  It's in paysites' interest, not EA's and they aren't doing jackshit about it either - other than the free alternative of sending people like you to forums with no evidence to plead their cases.



Don't you mean that I am being too reasonable by having caselaw, and you meanwhile, have the lawyer you pulled out of your arse?

That just proves he has shit for a lawyer... Sorry, it's late and I'm tired and sick and aggravated and maybe I ought to go to bed, but I doubt there's any room in it! Talk about bed hog in a queen size bed... Gah! My brain is sludged up, save me from barnacle lock of the deep! Heeeee, sorry, I really need to get out of here!

I need to get caught up on this reading, but someone asked who Alex was. He didn't give me an exact title all I know is, I called and ask to speak to legal and he is who picked up the phone. I called again today and asked to speak to legal again. John, no I don't know who John is. I guess I should ask these people's titles. I told him I had decided since EA now supports paysites I was going to open one, should I list it as a paysite when I download the fansite kit.  He said if you read the new EULA from start to finish it says to read the game EULA you agree too. He has no idea why someone said it was changing for the game. It still has not changed for BS or Homecrafter. They have never said it was going to change for the game. But in no way does the EULA support paysites even as it is written or twisted, and whoever disagrees with it would be best advised to obtain an attorney. So if that is what I plan to do, I should seek legal advice.

Oh and apparently Maxoids don't work in legal. Don't ask lol I'm sorry to me this has turned into a joke. Maxoids can't speak for legal, customer service, etc...they tell us all different stories. So once again I think were all just going have to go on as we have, I don't see EA doing anything except the Curly shuffle.

I also wrote to the copyright office and asked about copyright for CC and why I couldn't find EA's copyright registration. If people who made CC had an automatic copyright. Their EA's copyright is under several names, I since found out. EA does business under another name other than EA. But here's what they wrote me back. Guess the last paragraph answered my question on that. Ok now I'll go back and read to see if they told anyone else something different.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are not permitted to provide legal advice or opinion, or otherwise comment on the rights of parties in specific circumstances.   We can provide you with the basic statutory provisions and copyright principles that may apply.

Copyright vests in the author/creator of the work, unless either a "work made for hire" or the copyright has been transferred to another party via a signed, written instrument (such as contract, assignment or will).  See http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html#201.   A transfer is generally not valid unless an instrument of conveyance, or a note or memorandum of the transfer, is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owner's duly authorized agent.  See http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html#204.  You may need to conduct some legal research in the case law, or on the internet, in order to determine the current disposition of the courts on the issue of whether electronic agreements are enforceable.  

However, the copyright holder of the original work (the game) has the exclusive right to prepare derivative versions of the work (presumably, the custom content) and to authorize other parties to do so.  When such permission is granted, the right to claim copyright in the derivative work can only be authorized by the party owning the copyright(the game) in the original work. As I've said a billion times think ghost artist. This part came from me in the italic underlined part. So hopefully no confusion.

Finally, registration is not mandatory.   Under present law, federal copyright protection is secured automatically when the work is "created", or fixed in a tangible form for the first time. No publication or registration in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright protection, and the copyright notice may legitimately be placed on the work at any time.

rg

I am very sorry for your loss, and if this is considered a double post. I will pray for you, your brother and your family. I will also light a candle for your brother. There is a saying I love...it may not make sense right now, I never fully understood it when I lost my son. It goes there are two ways to bring light into this world. One is to be a candle, the other is to be the light that reflects the candle. Your brother is now part of that light, you have your hero now as an angel. Watch for birds to come very close to you, butterflies or balloons floating to the sky. One of them always happens. When my mother in law died last year, a nurse was telling me on the day her son died she saw a group of balloons and knew it was him telling her it was ok. He's going to be fine. Her son was killed in a drive by, he was not part of a gang. On the day my mother in law died these balloons floated close to my face I saw this shadow coming towards me and I looked up and there was this group of balloons just hovering there. Then they just went up and away. I thought about the story the nurse told me, so I said my Good-byes. I took care of her the last 10 years of her life and I wouldn't trade a moment of it. We had a great relationship, she would tell me what to do, and I would ignore her. She tried so hard to make me into a lady. Always buying me make-up and suits/dresses. It was a hopeless cause, I'm an ex soldier. Give me jeans and t-shirt. But I loved her no less than I could have if she were my own mother.

(http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/crapola/pancake_bunny.jpg)

Hawk Girl,
Thanks for the useful information. I confess I forgot to call EA. I'm re-posting your info on SC2 if you didn't. Pescado is around so I'm not asking for permission, I know how to choose my troubles.

Help me out here and don't beat me up too much if I'm wrong. Aren't CC packages pieces of software, kind of plug-ins? If yes, the original software in every package is already under copyright, no?

By the way thanks for providing this forum. After spending my time replying to people like hillaryann37 (yes I know I'm not forced to but I get antsy when I see people posting blatant lies and misinforming) I need a place where to get a good laugh.

I don't know the answer to what your asking? I'm sorry. I don't think a package file would be like a plugin. I'd compare it more to like a PSD that would go into Photoshop. Or a tube that would go into PSP. I may be wrong on that.  I thought someone earlier got a different reply than I did? I wouldn't assume they are lieing, if they are saying they got a different reply. It seems to me EA is just cuddling whoever they are talking to at the moment. Going in circles. I think they told SparklePlenty?? basically the same thing they told me to, to refer to the game EULA. But they may be telling others something different, I think a lot depends on who you talk too and their position at EA. They don't seem to be communicating with each other, so were all getting mixed signals. If that makes any sense.

The only thing I think is certain since two of us got the exact same answer from the copyright office. You cannot copyright derivatives which would be package files, those are the only files you can add to the game, better add here for Custom Content and obtain a copyright for them. Unless EA gives you a written agreement/contract/licensing agreement. Otherwise all copyright for anything you create remains with EA. Just as it would if you were a ghost artist working for a well known artist, or company such as Hallmark or American Greetings. I hope this helps and doesn't confuse you even more.

Uhm... Maybe I should finally start looking at Sims 2 seriously... I don't want to contradict you but I've the feeling thinking at posts in MATY concerning Pescado's mods that there's more.
Sigh I'm going to take a look at the tutorials on BHAV and Simantics, I used to create electronic gadgets for the automotive industry using Assembler and browsing superficially those tutorials got the idea Simantics isn't that different.
Sorry I'm rambling. Just to give you an example.. let's talk about something like the Insimenator package. It's associated to an object and interactions with it change the behavior and stats of the Sims. Like creating a procedure for... That involves code, I assume.
Just so you know if I start modding for Sims will be ALL YOUR FAULT :)

Oh goody, goody!! Just try to make them non globals please. Globals make me so nervous. I only have one in my game. I haven't had a bad experience with them so don't know why, they just do. You may be 100 percent correct, so feel free to contradict me and my thinking on it. I'm just thinking of clothing and hair basic CC and thinking of it in the form of layers, alpha's. I use plugins for all my textures, so we'll consider them a plugin based on that. lol No wait then you won't make any nifty mods for me to download.

(pancake bunny here)

(bunny here)

*Cpt Fs eats pancake*

(nothing here)

Ry ate the bunny.
Mmm, wabbit soup.

You cruel pirate people, you!

shhh be vewy vewy quiet I'ze hunting wabbits!

Forgot to add the other business EA does business under. I thought I had. sorry about that. You can get all kinds of business reports, etc...here, but they all cost money.

http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_dwlfhj

Electronic Arts Inc (Crocodile Productions)
209 Redwood Shores Pkwy, Redwood City, CA 94065-1175, United States  (Map) (Add Company Info)

Phone: (650) 628-1500

Ticker Symbol:ERTS

Also Does Business As:Crocodile Productions

URL:www.uolbr.net, www.ea.com, www.wcwbackstageassault.com, www.blackthornsrevenge.net, www.lordblackthornsrevenge.org

SIC:Prepackaged Software

Line of Business:Develops Markets Publishes And Distributes Interactive Software Games

http://whois.domaintools.com/thesims.com
http://www.aboutus.org/TheSims.com

Oh and for anyone interested in contacting Will Wright
 
(925) 933-5630
Fax: (925) 927-3736

ETA: Has anyone been to this site and checked out all the information? This is really interesting if you look at all the different sites.
ForeverSimFantasy has a higher ranking than MTS2 or TSR? Plus more average page views. Holy Simoly has a higher page view per average user than MTS2 or TSR also. Plus more average visitors per day almost 100,000 more people visit Holy Simoly per day than do MTS2 or TSR. So how exactly is this bandwidth thing measured, because I am starting to really think some not so nice things about these bigger sites. Which to me would mean they use a ton more bandwidth than either MTS2 or TSR. Wrong?

I mean if I am reading this correctly, I may not be. lol If they may have more members, but these sites seem to be getting more visitors per day, downloads, and page views, wouldn't they be using more bandwidth than these other two?

PMBD and the booty are really high up there as well.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=paysites.mustbedestroyed.org

I just had to aswer this even if it's kinda old now.

Nope, folks here are not more than 'thieves'. The stuff is paid for,
without any warranties. If i buy something from you, you are not
in the position to deny me to share this with other people. Do you
own a company, do you pay taxes, are you registered as a owner of
your business? If you are, then you should give your customers warranties, and if they are not satisfied, they should get their money back.

You paysitepeople are dirty arrogant schwines, pirates are not. They buy and pay, and share, which is a good idea to make other people happy, and the thought of you suffering from that is doing something with my mood.  :wink:

This socalled new EULA makes no difference, since you operate in the grey zone, probably from TSR, or whatever, it does not matter, you
are freaking ridicilous. Even if i do not even like your stuff, i would buy
it and share it, to me you and other paysiteowners are nothing else than
simple gansters and mafia, probably without any education and are not even able to get a decent work. People like you do not deserve any respect, cause you do not show that you earn any respect.

And thanks to Paden and all the other people here who type properly english, i appreciate that you are so freespoken and definately more intellegent than the propaysite-people hunging around here.

Did anyone go to download the new videos for BV?

http://thesims2.ea.com/about/ep6_videos_download.php?movieID=1&version=hi



Sure doesn't look like they're changing the EULA universally, does it?

They still haven't changed it for Bodyshop or HomeCrafter either. Those are both on the Exhange also, although they love to point to the Exchange and say it's all been changed. I deleted the thing off of my PC just so I could download a new copy and get the EULA. So I'm still waiting for one of these Rocket Scientist to make us some CC using just the Content Manager.

Sorry - I know I'm late to the party and I hope no one minds the bump.



Isn't this the answer to this whole debate?  The new EULA changes nothing in practice even if it does apply to all the CC tools and despite the varied legal readings.  The main game site is still a file-sharing site - THE main file-sharing site I should think (despite PMBD's best efforts) - whether the files are pay or not.

Those of us who have 'legitimately' bought pay stuff (because that's how it's done here, isn't it?) can build some lots/sims and upload them to the Exchange.  

If TSR and others have a problem with that, they could go and ask EA/Maxis to remove their pay content - or give them their money back - or is it the other way round?  Whatever.  

Or am I missing something?