PMBD

I'm making a thread here because a thread that was also started here some time ago was the cause of some drama and hard feelings. So here it goes.

Once again, I've changed my site policy. I made a big deal before about how I was including all the meshes for the files on my site, regardless of whether they were free or pay. Because of that, some free creators have been upset and angry, and that has never sat well with me. It's really difficult to back down after making that kind of stand, but well... I never had a problem with any free creator. So, I am offering my apologies and eating a little humble pie. I still think free distribution of meshes is a good idea, but I don't think it was right of me to step on anyone to try and make a point.

I am still including pay meshes and meshes from those sites that like to take their toys and go home on a regular basis.

Let the beatings commence.

Couldn't there be an amicable compromise? As in: you speak with these free site creators and request that you be permitted to make said meshes available in the event that their sites become unavailable for whatever reason (with full credit given and links to the site provided)?

One lacklustre, half arsed beating coming up.  

I'm sorry that some free creators got upset about the whole thing, and I admire the fact that you apologised.  I'm glad that you're still including pay meshes and drama meshes, and wish that the free meshes could be included.

Never mind though.  Whack. Whack.... Oh do the rest yourself.

hi liegenschonheit,  it's a pain in the ass for downloaders to chase mesh links all over the net, only to find the page has changed or the mesh maker is gone. for this reason I and my other creator activly hunt down sites with a policy of redistrobutable meshes (with credit link)

I was thinking just yesterday, that we need a directory somewhere of creator friendly sites. it would make it both easier for the creator and the downloader. next week sometime I will be adding a list of sites that allow meshes to be added with recolours in zips (along with a credit link), to my site.  maybe you could do the same and we can share the links?

While I appreciate your decision not to conflict with free meshers (or, to put it bluntly, letting a fool to have their way :twisted:), I still think the meshers who make OH SO BLOODY DAMN BIG DEAL out of their mesh distribution policy are wussies who need a joint o'chill.

That's true too, but at the end of the day I think it is right to respect the creator's bottom line, if there has been no success in getting them to lighten their policy.

Liegen: I thought it was very good, what you had done, and well worth doing. I'm sorry some creators tried to have a bitchfight with you; you don't deserve it. But your current policy is very good. It makes me furious when the mesh is impossible to get ahold of. There's one site I love, and they use a mesh from Biene that is IMPOSSIBLE to get because it simply doesn't exist over there. I'd appreciate if they were allowed to include the nonexistent mesh with their work...

Sherrie: Simply smashing idea! I'd love to help out. It has been needed for a while, a site that allows free distribution of meshes! Another thing connected would be MTS2 creators who allow their meshes to be redistributed, too. Jolly good, I say!
(Cor blimey! I just realised how ridiculously stereotypically English I sound! :shock: I'm not even from England!)

Liegen - well, to be honest I wholeheartedly agree with this modified policy. I myself prefer not to intentionally break the (reasonable) TOS of free, available creators if I can help it, only because I like my TOS to be respected as well, even though they're practically nonexistant  :lol:  but meh. I do however have no problem with including meshes from the rest of the people who make it extra difficult to track down their stuff. Especially people with vanishing sites, uploads, notorious dramawhores, people who will restrict my freedom of where I upload ANY recolors I make, meshes included or not, and so on (because that's just ridiculous. Even moreso when I do ask permission and my PMs get ignored).
So I think this is a good middle ground. :)

sherrie - that's a good idea, you can definitely include Noukiesims in it. I allow mesh distribution, I think Nouk does too. :)

That's BRILLIANT! thank you  :D  I'll start on it next week. I'll do a special page for it and anyone can link to or copy the whole list onto their site.

its a wonderful idea to include MTS2 creators in the list, Thanks sappire

Sweet, that's gonna help me a lot. I recolor much more than I mesh, and I hate hunting for the darn things.

Plz add that Noukiesims generally only allows it on non-fat sims plz. thx :lol:

Here is a beginning list from the MTS2 wiki.  It is at least a place to start:

http://www.sims2wiki.info/wiki.php?title=Creator_Policies

We have a new entry for the non-existing Sims 2 Dictionary and I love it!  :lol:


Sherrie, check your PM's! :wink:


I liked your old policy as well, Liegen, but I understand that stepping on all those sore toes isn't an easy thing. I wish you best of luck with whatever you do because your site will continue to rock no matter what.

Here, have a record:

(http://www.raw-tcsd.com/Humble.GER.12183.jpg)

I only allow my cc to be used on lots where all the simmies are vegetarian.  If you catch a sim making lobster thermidor in a house with one of my meshes in it, you have to delete all my files from your HD

But...but!!! *uses your hacks in EVERY lot--most of whom are carnivorous*

I can understand Lieg where you are coming from, although it still kinda sucks as an avid downloader......But it's your right to make this decision and it won't affect my downloading your stuff anyway ;)



Veering off in another direction....umm is it just me who's been in the dark but is Besen's sims pay?  Cause looking at the wiki it says only free stuff is redistributable but I haven't found anything on their site that suggests that?  But i'm also a blind chicken sometimes so......

I don't think you did anything wrong in the first place, but I understand your wanting to decrease the drama level. It is a big PITA to hunt for meshes. I really don't get all the angst over distributing them as long as credit and a link are provided. It's really a pain for people who create sims since they are automatically included in body shop.

Being a vegetarian is right out for me, I'm an obligate carnivore. I could be convinced to becone a humanitarian, though.

I just have one question...

... May I have a link to your site? (You're a very bad girl for not adding it to your profile!)

SHAME! SHAME!

http://www.digitalperversion.net/

My post is going to be in line with most of the people here in this thread. Free or not, I swear I hate playing the "find the mesh" game. It is like the washer/dryer I wanted to use at MTS2. I have searched high and low for the mesh because it seems the link to the mesh is no longer working because the site is gone. OR the garage doors that I DL'd and missed the mesh and I had to hunt it down. It's frustrating. Especially for me when there is so much I don't understand about all of this.

I've never understood (and this may be because I am so new to all of this, although I am learning quickly. LOL) why you can't "redistribute" and must "link back for the mesh" for free stuff. If it is on the net, and you give it freely, then WTH not just let people throw it in the Zip file? Why not just say "hey throw this in the Zip file for people to have it so my items work in the game, but please tell them about me" or something like that? I know that creators hope that people will respect their TOS, but in all honesty what are you going to do if they don't?

I kinda have the same attitude towards meshes and files that I have about lending money. I don't lend money with the expectation to be paid back, if I do it sets me up to feel shitty about the human species.

If you put your mesh for people to use/recolor, etc on the net and then expect them to "link back only," then you should expect that some will not respect your TOS regardless of what you have in it and then there will be those that will renew your faith in human beings.

I respect you liegenschonheit for being one that wants to respect someone's TOS, but in the end with me at least, if I can't readily find the mesh, I won't go back to the creator's site.

You, and people who have/had the same policy, were keeping people like me going back to those sites to see what those creator's had. Because if all else failed, I knew if I could not find the mesh at their site, "you" had it. It was not a frustrating struggle for me to find a freaking Mesh that may have been created years ago (because I am so much farther behind you all in D/Ls LOL) and now off of someone's site.

I'm making a stand by similarly refusing to use non redistributable meshes.  If you don't want people playing with your toys.. fine.  I won't play with them.   Revel in your self inflicted obscurity and not-as-cool-as-mine (<.<')  ('>.>) recolors.

The bottom line is, having your site linked at the bottom of every download is the BEST advertising!   Look at simchic, most of their stuff is utter crap, but it's still popular because the name is burnt into everyones memory.

I don't think you did anything wrong either, but you really don't seem like one for conflict, and I accept that.

I think I said this before, but I swear this has to be the only gaming community willing to indulge the neuroses of its members to untold degrees. It's more like Livejournal (omg u use my icon TIME TO CUT MYSELF AND POST ABOUT IT) in that regard.

Thanks everyone for your help  :D

Nouk: no problem, I can add something like 'partial distrobution please check policy' or whatever wording you would like.

Tomato: Thanks for that awsome list, that will really help.


I'm looking for your imput on sites that allow distrobution but carry donation sets. for example, a site like Liana. I do use liana's meshes myself and have no problem linking back for credit. I was recently panned by some clown for doing so, because liana has donation sets. 2-for-u is another one I can think of. let me know if you think sites like this should or shouldn't be included.

Free mesh list to help you on your way

http://www.downtown-sims.com/meshes.htm

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass. I know paysites are bad but there's badness and there's badness. I'm not about to condemn a site for a couple of donation sets if they have a reasonable outlook on other things (maybe eventually they, too, will see the light). And I'm certainly not going to condemn the people who use their meshes and show their respect for the creation of those meshes by linking back.

But that's just me. Us cats are known for worrying about more important things. Like tuna.  8)

Maybe some things are already changing. Check HP's new terms of use.  :D

I still think meshes should be freely distributable, but my change of heart on this matter had more to do with the fact that if the worst of the problem is a distribution TOS, I don't want to piss off the talented free creators. Also, I am soft and squishy, and I admit part of this is because I hate to be the bad guy with people I respect and admire just to prove a point.

Meshes will still have to be easy to get to for me to not include them though. The ones that have thus far been removed have had direct access to threads and pages where the file can be quickly grabbed. If it becomes a hunt, a pain in the ass, or the meshes are pulled, then all bets are off and I'll post the mesh. To me, this seemed like a reasonable compromise, as my real concern with this whole policy was to make meshes easy for downloaders to access, pay or free.

I think you are doing fine. I refuse to recolor anything that people have to search for meshes to use. I will give a credit....but honestly, I get ready to recolor a mesh and find that it has been taken and tweaked and redone by at least 2 others and then...well...jeez, who can you credit, because it's been thru half a dozen people? Then I have to fix it again because of holes and gaps and spend an hour doing that.

I do the best I can, but if people complain, I ignore it. People will always find something to bitch about. At first, I hated the drama, but now, people will bitch about anything and make a TOS that is stupid.....so I make my stuff, have a small following, enjoy my own creations, and if people complain, then I just shrug it off. If someone really wants to spend hours bitching because I tweaked their stupid, hole-infested mesh and made a decent texture and color.....then let them.

I liked your old site policy. I too find it odd that some creators wouldn't be happy with simply having free advertisements via credit and a link back to their site. That seems rather counter productive to sharing your creations and being well known for them because, as Dour pointed out, this has been working very well for simchic.

However, that said, I also like the new site policy as well. It is understandable why you decided to change it and some of the really important points have still be kept, like including pay meshes and only using meshes that are easy to find. I think you are doing just fine using either policy.

I have to also agree that this idea about starting to use only meshes from creators who allow them to be shared is a good idea as well.

I think part of the problem is there is always an idiot who thinks sharing their mesh = stealing (even if credit is given where credit is due).

Arr, Liegen! What you did is awesome :D  I approve you whole heartedly, you just proved that sometimes to take a step back is all but a sign of weakness, on the contrary what you did is a clear sign of you being way braver, smarter, kinder and more sincere than many. Though I'm no creator I feel like personally thanking you, really, because in my opinion your spirit shows and strenghtens the very best part of this community.

*pulls Lieg into a rough pirate hug"

Arrrrrrr.

:::joins the hug::::

Liegen, you did what you thought was right...so good on ya. What sucks is not that you made peace over a stupid issue but that free creators MADE this an issue at all.

If I made meshes, I'd let you do whatever you wanted to with them.

Aaaaaannnnnyyyyything?

 :shock:

Aaaaaannnnnyyyyything.

But you'd have to tell me about it afterwards. ;)

are pictures ok?  I dont think it will be able to talk afterwards...

To play devil's advocate.. I've always assumed three reasons why a creator would ask for their meshes to not be distributed.  The first is so that downloaders will see their TOS.  The second is so that if they update/fix a mesh, the old one won't piss in the water.  And the third reason is to be able to offer support and get feedback easily.  I think this is especially the case with MTS2, where much testing and mesh revisioning goes on.

My old reasons for requesting my content not be distributed on community sites that sourcelink to themselves was in order to maintain a modicum of control over updates/fixes to textures, among other reasons.

At some point though I decided it wasn't worth the flack I got for it, and it isn't my responsibility to make sure everyone out there gets updated textures.  My game has the updated textures.. my site has the updated textures... I really shouldn't concern further.  Meshes are different though, linking to the source could mean you'll get a mesh that doesn't 'splode your game if you (don't) have a particular EP.

So anyway.. while I agree with the masses on mesh hunting, and how much it sucks... I think there are still some very valid reasons why a creator would want to localize downloading to their turf.  Especially if there are glitches, it isn't animated, or seems otherwise unfinished... those beg for updates.

Yeah I'm a babbler...

Are you Ren of sim-cribbing? I think the fact that you are so generous with your textures means you are better recognized than you would be if you didn't allow it.

Simply providing a link would solve the upgraded mesh problem, most people would click the link and find the updates anyway. The most vocal opponents of including meshes have changed their policies anyway (Marvine, HP, etc.) so I suspect that's how things will go more and more now.

I think Ren above is from Rensim, which is a very very awesome site.

I support including meshes, but not to the extent of stepping on toes uneccessarily, as you put it. To be honest, it's the mesh creator's loss if it's not included since less people will bother looking for it. I think a link back should be compulsory in all cases, whether mesh is included or not, but that's already the case most of the time.

Liegenschonheit, I think it was a good idea but most creators aren't quite ready for it. I think it's really brave of you to show that making happy for all is more important to you than creating more drama in the community. Brava! :D

Rensim is also an excellent site. I love the eyes especially. They've also recently updated their policies. It used to be you couldn't include their content in uploaded sims to places like MTS2 or Insiminator but now you can.

I join the group hug: I would only repeat what others said much better.

I don't know about other people, but when a mesh is included with something and a credit to a site, I don't just grab the mesh and texture and run.  I like to download nice things--when I see something that on first glance I think is of fair quality that's being redistributed by someone else, I'll take a look at the site it's from to see if there's anything else worth downloading from there.

I don't see a problem with redistribution with credit given to the creator and a link to their site--if people just want to grab the mesh and texture and run, and are happy with what they got, regardless of the fact that there may be an updated version on the site it originates from, then fine; it's one fewer site they have to visit.

heres a rough draft of the list. Please let me know what you think. I still have to make a banner for the top and add buttons to the sites that are missing them. I also have to sort out an award scheme for the 100% free sites on the list. The page is leaning to the left, but shouldn't do when It's added to my framed site.

http://sherriesim.com/creatorschoice.html

I think the list is awesome.  Even though I'm not a creator, I saw some links to places I've never heard of, so I'll definitely be checking them out.  Good job, Sherrie! :)

Back to the whole include/don't include, if I download an item with a mesh included from another creator, and I've never heard of the creator or the site, I will ALWAYS check it out.  It's really not that of a deal to have to go to another site just to get the mesh if it's not included, but when they say, oh it's a Peggy mesh, in clothing, and then you have to go hunt it down, I won't.  If they tell me exactly what page it's on, and what it's called, I usually will.  Basically what everyone else said. :D

Well, like I said before when you decided to include all the meshes, I think that's a really good idea.

In fact, if I have to go hunt down a mesh for anything that's not a hair recolor (and that's generally because I can't keep track of what hairs I had and deleted for want of good textures), not only do I NOT download it, I try to make a mental note and avoid that mesher in the future, period.  You don't want me to have easy access to your stuff, I'll make it easy on you and make sure I don't have any of it.

Yeah, no one ever likes file dependency hunting. It's the thing that has always plagued Linux, too.

Looking good Sherrie!

Here's another MTS2 creator who allows her meshes to be redistributed with credit (note that the main page TOS apply to her actual clothes being redistributed with sims, not meshes). The Mesh TOS can be found here (http://forums.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=215974)

Main profile page:

http://forums.modthesims2.com/member.php?u=120894

I've used her stuff before, she makes nice alpha bottoms. :)

People who even bother to make a TOS are taking this too seriously. What the hell are you gonna do to people who ignore it? Sue them? Call them doodyheads?

Ohh doodyheads...teh horror! Though I have seen the lawsuit threat...and more than once.

I guess TOS are part of their attempts to stop people from stealing their stuff. It *has* worked in some cases, when tons of people ganged up on the offender until they gave in to the pressure and removed whatever they were supposed to be stealing. Like in the Enayla/Chriko case. It has a bigger impact on the masses' minds if they see "you cannot redistribute, reuse, blah blah" as opposed to an ambiguous blank space. In my opinion, it goes without saying that when someone makes something, you don't just copy it and claim it as your own. But yeah...if someone is more stubborn than you, there's little you can do except whine, or, better, ignore it and move on. Chances are someone else will recognize it and give the person a hard time (like the one who PMed me about something I made uploaded to the exchange ending with OMGz how awfull I'm sorry!111oneoneone. I thanked them, had a look, saw that my name was still there somewhere and left it at that, because frankly, the exchange is one thing I won't be bothered with. Too much stuff, too little moderation =too big a headache to be worthwhile) I wouldn't particularly like someone claiming something of mine as their own but, honestly, I wouldn't exactly loose sleep over it either.
For me, TOS are just good ways of letting people know what you do allow: meshes included, textures reworked or not, stuff included with sims and so on. When I get to the "you need my permission to recolor or upload ANYWHERE, bow down and kiss my ring" part, I know that's one creator whose meshes I won't be using.

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet or not, but HP changed her TOS to allow meshes to be redistributed:



(I cut some of it out for length.)

Awe, Liegen, I hate to see you back down.  You can always say, I'm sorry...BUT  (and continue on with what your were doing).  ROFL

Is it just me who haven't been able to access the site for a couple of days? *worry*

This site?  I had a hell of a time yesterday getting to here and MATY, but today has been fine.

Could be talking about Liegen's site.  I haven't been able to get to it for a while either, but I doubt it's anything terribly serious.

Yea did mean liegen's site, sorry ^^ Was all set to raid it and then it was down *pout* But I'll take Ensign's word for it not being anything serious ;)

But 404, incidentally we've had a helluva time loading maty and pmbd today... Figured Pescado was just fiddling "on his airplane in flight" or whatever the picture he painted was  :lol:

I had a hard time loading Nouk's site earlier, and she's hosted by Pescado now. But oh well it's working now. :D

I can't load Liegen's site though. Good thing I have my Sims 2 games uninstalled, because I would totally raid her hair recolors right about now.

It was down. My best friend got married earlier tonight, so this is the first time I've been home and online long enough to check my email in about a week. I realized that I forgot to pay up with my hosting company for the month (I don't care for auto pay for various reasons), and have since corrected the problem. They have their money, site should be back up shortly.

Sorry!

Don't be sorry on my account, I was merely worried that something untoward had happened on your site. We hear about it all the time. I need a few lessons in impulse control when it comes to downloading anyhoo.

Was it a nice wedding? <3

It was a beautiful wedding in the garden of a huge victorian house in the town we grew up in. Everything was perfect, other than a bunch of minor things that went wrong behind the scenes, but I suspect that's normal. It was totally exhausting though, I've never taken part as one of the main event coordinator type people in a wedding and it's a LOT of work!

On a side note, the site and forum are back up now.

Thanks electric and ghanima, I've now added them to the list.

http://sherriesim.com/creatorschoice.html

Wow, that is a really great idea sherry! I can definitely see that being a useful list. If you'd like, you can stick Digital Perversion on there for clothing, hair and recolours. Everything on my site is pretty much fair game.

I don't know much PHP, but I wonder how hard it would be to make it an editable database so people could post sites and things directly?

I guess my point of view on the TOS thing stems from the fact that I *AM* that stubborn, and simply find it difficult to understand why anyone else wouldn't. So as far as I'm concerned, anyone out to do so is doing so deliberately, and I see no reason to give them the satisfaction of letting it bother me.

the list is for site with redistributable mesh files only (so I'm not even on the list  :cry:  But I can add you to my links page  :D

I haven't got a clue when it comes to PHP, so I'm not sure how to make an editable data base, if it helps I do have a top 100 site, that is simular, where you upload your own banner and discription.

 http://sherriesim.gotop100.com/index.php?

Ah, okay. I wasn't sure if it was meshes only. I have err.. one redistributable mesh, but it isn't very good. :P

My appologies, I found 2 of your meshes on your site, under fetish, and they are very good!

I'll add you to the list, and also to my links page.

you have some really great stuff on your site, and I'm sorry I missed the meshes last time I looked.   :(