PMBD

Well, it seems EA has ]quietly declared this position (http://www.insimenator.net/announcement.php?f=421&a=48) on the issue some more. Considering that the EA package is now snarfing meshes and nicking them for the Exchange, what does this tell you? DOWN WITH PAYSITES!

It's funny how Yakov (Beosboxboy) says "It is also in almost every instance a violation of the terms of use by mesh creators." because the mesh creator's terms technically could be considered a violation of EA's terms if they really want to push the issue. The EULA is included with the game, even if no one reads it. And EA has better lawyers. :P

If it came down to a fight, my money would be on EA.

And what, creating custom content and charging for it isn't a violation of EA's terms?!

People really need a swift kick up the arse and good reality check...

Well that's just craptastic aint it XD
Now every idiot can upload a defected mesh to the EA site and... wait, it's actually kinda funny...

what is more funny is the fact that the creators think they own the meshes


**off topic**
welcome Nouk, your site is one of my favs.

Perhaps it's time to get more popcorn & soda ready? Looks like it's going to get real entertaining when the rude awakening comes. :twisted:

Well now, this whole thing just keeps getting better and better. :mrgreen:

EA actually did a good thing for a change. Imagine that. Did hell freeze over when I wasn't looking?

I actually can't wait for the first (pay)site owner to complain to EA they're stealing  8)

And you know some dumb moron is going to.  :roll:

Let me be the first, just to have some fun.

"Dear EA/Maxis/Whatever,

You are stealing my mesh!! The mesh I extracted from YOUR game with SOMEONE ELSES tools, a mesh I have been selling for 3 bucks a download, damnit! And to make matters worse, I spent 3 hours modifying YOUR mesh into something that looks EXACTLY the SAME but it's MINE!

Damnit! I'll Sue!!!

Greetings from Nouk.


p.s. that skintone made of SOMEONE ELSES POSER SKINS I made, it's mine, I'll get a lawyer, take it off!"

Ahh but the mesh is a work of art! Like...you don't credit the factory for the canvas, right??! So it's totally mine! Like, really!   :P

Yeah, damnit.

I MEAN IT! DON'T MAKE FUN! YOU'RE FIRED!!

Aww poo! For that, with the money I'm gonna get from my EA lawsuit win I will hire a hacker and hijack your site! HA!  :twisted:

WHY YOU!!

I will just take my site offline and blackkat.. blackshat... blackwhatever the hell out of you!

HA going offline isn't gonna hide you from the kind of blackhat I'm sending after you...his dayjob is somewere in a Government office too! He's gonna hack your TV set next!

*sorry, that got wayy off topic, but couldn't resist*  8)

NOT my tv! I wanna watch teletubbies and see the republicans win the elections! GO BUSH

Now thats just going too far.

I think EA always intended stuff to be shared. It was the "creators" who didn't want their items shared on the Exchange because they didn't feel like they were being credited. Even though when you look at the list of custom content it shows the creator's name if there is one. At least for BodyShop and Homecrafter stuff. Objects is a different story I guess.

I never understood why someone would get bent out for shape when one of their walls or floors showed up in a house at the Exchange when all they did was take an image from the internet and turn it into a wall with Homecrafter. Credit for what? Right -clicking?

When I am depressed, I just pop in my copy of "Teletubbie Autopsy".
Cheers me right up.

Horrible, horrible EA! How could they? I mean, ensuring that content offered on their site comes complete with everything needed for the content to work. It's criminal.

Actually, I wish they'd put as much thought into debugging and testing the game as they do improving the exchange.

Well, I think I'm going to go upload some meshes to the exchage now  :twisted: .


Spread the love, y'all, spread the love.

Another dirty little secret about meshes is that most of the people who make them use pirated cracked 3D programs to do it. Of course they won't tell you that. :P

I've always wondered if the Exchange the & way the sims2pack files suck everything up like a vacuum was EA's subtle way to help foil paysites. Too bad it's an poorly organized cess pool that no one but lobotomized 10 year olds want to use. :P

the one mesh I made (and no, I won't share it, I don't care to have everyone see what crap I made and what a mess I made out of it firsthand, ya'll can go to my sim blog and see it on a model and laugh hysterically) I used a demo of the program. I figure if I need ot make another, I'll do what I always do with timed demos- bookmark the download site and return once a month ~_^

Well yes I suppose there's that too lol. That would be the low tech way to get around registering shareware. ;)

Ummm yeah... *shifty eyes* *sweaps key-gen under poorly textured sim rug*

And I highly doubt if the biggest pay site owners actually purchased Photoshop or PSP, even though they get enough money. (But hey, ofcourse they cant pay 2k on a stupid programm  :o  they have to save for a new kidney ofcourse!)

Yup, that's why the quality is like a two-bit artwork. Except for a couple of exceptional items I never found anything worth paying anyway. If only EA would hire its own interior designers, make-up artists, or even a plastic surgeons for professional advice for this game then we didn't need to put up with these amateur "designers". I know quality when I look at it.

Nah hell didn't freeze over...just EA screwed up AGAIN..but this time they lucked into something good.

Unfortunately I do have some bad news....this is a bug.  EA didn't intend for this to happen, and they are looking into ways to address this "bug".
From what I've heard, there is a reason that meshes never were included in sims2packs, and they still really don't want them in the packs.  Potential problems with duplicate meshes, and potentially spreading of "bad" meshes are the main reasons that meshes were not intended to be included.

Of course on the bright side..this is another example of how stupid EA is :-/

You know, they said that about hacks, too. And there's a legitimate reason NOT to package hacks. But did they ever stop it? Nope. They just put a "non-Maxis" warning label on it. Odds are they will do nothing about meshes, either, and this is just EA-speak for "lalalala, we're not listening!".

its not like ea thought we wouldnt create meshes

Lmao.
I actually thought it was great to have meshes included into SimPackages, it would make Sims sharing way easier.
Bu then again a bunch of creators would pop up complaining about "illegal" redistribuition of their meshes, so..  :?

I wish meshes were included in every file.  I hate it when you find a really nice recolor or hair or whatever and then you are told you have to go to a site to get the mesh, but they don't give you a link to the mesh.  So you go to the site only to find that you can't even find the mesh without hunting around their site for hours.  I always end up giving up.  :?

http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=658910&postcount=74
that made me laugh.

Fantastic. :D

I wonder how long the thread will survive before getting deleted...

... oh wait. LyricLee is no longer a mod. :lol:

I was genuinely impressed that the only problem site staff had with that post was that there was a doublepost..

At the risk of going Paris Hilton: That's hot.

I think my biggest issue with the mesh thing is that so many creators spout off about giving to the community, and expect thanks, comments, worship, whatever...but they seem to have forgotten that giving is something you do without expecting anything in return, and being grateful if you actually do. The joy of giving is in knowing the pleasure the receiver will have with what you gave - not in all the glory and recognition you reap.

Well said, Nec.

It feels like some creators want to become household names, though it might not be their intention. I do understand they want to "control" their creations... but still. D:

But they are giving it to people over the internet.
How much control can they expect?
And if you are a regular downloader you can eventually tell who makes what meshes anyways.

nectere's post was truly awesome.

And that's also awesome that DiscordKitty and HystericalParoxysm? didn't say anything about it.  Not deleting it days oodles about them.

Yeah, it's nice to see that some sort of integrity has been restored there, proper integrity, not that shit HChangeri was on about...

I guess EA gave the paysite owners a good screwing.. Ahhh much like a divorce the screwing they get for the screwing they gave... And they preach about KARMA I wonder if anyone's ass hurts? :lol:

My karma ran over their dogma.

 

After all the screwing how could it not?!

HP just locked the thread, that didn't last too long did it.

Surprisingly longer than I thought it would.   :?

It's getting almost like there are some adults using that site...  :shock:

I don't know.  HP's last post reads like a "taking her toys and going home" declaration to me.  

I see where the paysites are angry at losing money (here's where I shed a tear and pour malt liquor out on a curb for my fallen homies), but when your meshes are free anyway, what's the big deal?  It just makes it look like the dissenting voice in the thread was right about creators becoming glory hogs.

And really, what is the praise from people worth these days.  Supposedly, people praised Carla Niven's work.  See my point?

Ah yes, the last post had not been added last time I looked.  That's a bit disappointing.

Oh boo fricken hoo. This community lost its heart and soul a LONG time ago, the day that paysites became accepted. I remember when I could go to a site and not have to see if it was pay. I could download nice stuff for free. Like EVERY OTHER GAME OUT THERE.

On another note, I HATE when mods reply to people and then close the damn thread. Its so fucking immature.

I think the "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" bullshit was made up by a plagarist, but the rest of what that SimMaster said is true - put something out in public, period, it WILL be redistributed in some form or another. You can't control who will talk about it, what they'll say about it, or who they'll give it to. It's called free publicity.

Mature artists and authors - usually the ones making a living at it - have very little problem with some kid printing off something of theirs to show to a friend, because if it gets that friend interested they'll start buying that author or artist's work and start telling other people about it. More people interested = more people buying.

The sims 2 creators are very immature in this regard. They're so afraid of losing control of what people do and what people think that they make it really difficult for new people to find out about their work or want to give a damn about it because of their restrictive, convoluted sharing policies. They're trying to protect against that tiny, tiny percentage of the downloading population who will never follow policies or pay for things, and in the process treat all of the rest of the downloading population like thieves and make themselves look like whiny little kids who won't share their toys.

I'd also like to beat the lot of them with a comparative religions book for so frequently and egrariously misusing the word 'karma'. It does not fucking mean 'bad things happen to people who don't do exactly as you say'!

Just read the thread. Ugh, what nonsense. "omg thread insulting!!!1" Please, she just closed it because no one gave as much of a damn as her whiny ass.

I do understand that the new type of packages make their redistribution's policies completly useless. However, I think it's a shame if it stops them from sharing their creations to other people.

It's not like everybody is not going to credit. I, for sure, am always going to credit when it is due -- even if I think it is overrated. It's common courtesy, but hey -- not everyone does it. People who kept crediting will keep doing it, those who didn't still won't.

If EA decides not to do anything about it, creators will just have to live with it.

And hey -- music bands had to face the horror that is Internet. They're still alive.

The thread has been reopened by Delphy and nec told not to post again, lol

Nec, I'm fine with it that you have that kind of opinion, but I do not agree at all.

I don't go after people for some 'thanks' but as to proper credit, I highly prefer it! I'd like for people to notice who made certain stuff, so that they can go an look for more or leave an appreciation. I don't see that as wanting honour or worship or more of that bull, I see that as normal  :shock:  I was actually raised to say 'bobby, lucy, or jenny made it' if someone gives me something for free, and I give it to someone else. And at least say 'hey thanks!' to bobby lucy or jenny!
If someone does not credit my work I get very evil. But I'm not searching for mys stuff all over the darn web so I've hardly ever encountered that.
So, if people do not want to say thanks, then tough, I have better things to do than whine about that. But it's still nice, especially when you work hard for something.

What DOES bug me a bit, and what HP was actually talking about, is that Maxis uploads shit without any credit, or allows it. Since this happens on a massive scale, and people don't seem to give a shit who made it. I understand that for HP this is very painfull since she puts her heart and soul into her creations, and I think she deserves the right to offer her stuff anywhere she wants, plus for FRIGGIN FREE!!  If people are too lazy to credit and add a stupid link, is that HER fault? Geez.

I'll just decide to ignore the stupid Exchange and I could care less what happens with my meshes/skins/other stuff there. To me it does not excist,  and no support is given for stuff of mine that might be missing/screwed up/ugly/something else. Not my problem. If people want my stuff they can better go to my site or any other site I upload stuff to myself, because then you at least have a chance to get into contact with me and point me to something that might be wrong so I can fix it. Thanks are always appreciated, but not required. And if anyone wants to screw around with my stuff they'd better do it out of my view. Maxis copyright schmopyright! I'll still stick your head on a pointy pole! :twisted:

Oh *that* nec.   There are too many people who shorten to "nec" in simming. :)

What is the deal with all this credit business? What do you get out of it? Seriously, I would really like to know why so many creators demand credit and have such a cow when they don’t get it. Why share what you create if your main priority is to get credit? Is it a fame thing? Are you trying to make a name for yourself is that why? Arent there other more gratifying and meaningful ways to do this? Do you think EA is going to come hire you or something? Hell even the folks at EA dont get any credit for their meshes, do any of these creators that whine about credit ever credit EA?

I think the thing that really I find amusing is that so many creators put so much of their self worth into making game content. No, not amusing, downright sad really. Its pretty simple to add your information in Simpe is it not? I don’t seem to have any trouble putting my name on/in my packages if I choose to, but that’s not enough apparently. Really it seems what everyone wants to some sort of branding or something. I suppose I create things for different reasons than the rest of the creators, I am a minority it seems and that is fine. I don’t want credit or a big hoopla, I find that stressful, just take your toys and go play with them, if something breaks then fine, let me know, otherwise, go-enjoy, do whatever you want with it, I shared it with you and now its yours and I don’t care what you do with it, least of all hail my name. The whole thing is just incredibly pompous in my opinion, but hey whatever floats your boat I guess. I just cant get over the amount of whining associated with a game of all things. Its become a real killjoy.

in regards to HP locking the thread, I think it was quite obvious she never read nectres post until last night when she did that.

EA should have implemented a proper way for each creator to have their name tagged against their creations in such a way it shows in the game and on the exchange as part of the whole download.  Most of us (apart from the money-grabbing ones) wouldn't mind at all our stuff being uploaded in that case.

There is stuff of mine on the exchange uploaded with people's lots that is actually attributed to *someone else* just because they uploaded it there first!

It's a matter of respect and/or recognition, not of egotripping. If someone writes a song, paints a painting, designs a house, these people are not frowned upon if they want their names on it. Then why the heck do creators of digital content get all this shit? Especially for a game? If it's meaningful to a creator, then let it be. It's not like we're asking you to grovel in the dirt and lick our shoes clean. We are only asking to put down a username. You get all our stuff for free and you can upload anywhere, only a small token to the original artist is required. Why is that such a problem? And I couldn't care less about EA, I'm in nursing school! :lol:



I personally respect your opinion, but you should have a more open mind and respect other's opinions too. If someone wants his name on something he/she made, wich is only logical in this world, then let it be. Does it hurt you or something? Pushing an extra few keys on your keyboards? :shock:

Reasons to put proper credit:
* If something broke, you will be able to find the creator and tell them easily.
* People will know where to find more of the same creator.
* The creator will appreciate it. (GOSH no, creators should just STFU and not enjoy giving out stuff!! Heavens, it makes them feel good to see their name on something, NOT ALLOWED NOT ALLOWED!! BUUUURN!!)

It is free, it is good, it is given without anything in return except credit, what more do people want!?

Well I suppose then I am too far removed to understand it then. I don’t share recolor’s of other peoples stuff, I refuse to make anything that depends on other peoples stuff (and share it with others), I don’t make sims for upload, I don’t make houses for upload with other peoples stuff (granted I did once or twice on my own site but it was such a hassle I don’t want to bother with it anymore) or do contests because seriously it really is too much of a hassle, especially when many creators are so lousy about putting the information in the file to begin with and seemingly expect you to jump through hoops to figure it out so they can get their kudos.

Maybe if creators were better about putting their name on and in their packages and possibly not be so snitty about their items I might have a different attitude. I think it’s the prevalence of this attitude that I am tired of seeing, all I hear about it seems like is people whining over thanks and credit, it makes me a little suspicious is to why people really make game content. The ones that really get me are the ones that say do not recolor, do not clone, do not alter, do not share, do not upload to exchange, do not take pictures of this item without crediting me etc. What is the point? That’s not really sharing in my opinion, that’s being a dictator and your ‘gift’ isn’t really a gift at all, and then they turn right around and say how giving they are and how they put their heart and soul into it and how wonderful they are. Seems to me they are so full of themselves already that they don’t need my help patting their back.

Like I said, whatever floats your boat tho, I don’t dispect you; I just don’t understand the issue. The fact is I am more than happy to give credit, link backs, referrals etc, but I don’t like doing it for people that have a crappy attitude, in fact I don’t like using their stuff at all. I don’t feel good about showing someone where to get something when I know the creator is a pompous ass that is on an ego trip. Basically for me I guess, for every ‘don’t’ a creator has I am going to have an equal number.

* Walks around wiggling her pompous ego ass * :lol: I love it, and I agree on that one.

Well personally I take much care into putting my name in Bodsyhop items and meshes. But putting a link in will make it less pretty :) That's why I include my Readme as much as possible.
Also, I don't think I have extremely strict rules. I only ask people not to use my stuff anywhere pay, and not on the stupid Exchange. And please ask me before mutilating a texture for use in their own stuff. And I usually say 'yes' anyway.XD

Also, if someone gets high on 'thank you's', who cares..? I think crediting is a whole other thing. Credit has practical use, 'thank you' is more of the appreciation thing. I don't mind someone loving the 'thanks you's' and getting more creative impulse on it somehow. If the stuff is free I have nothing to complain about.

I see you hardly ever upload anything that you didn't make, so it's not even a real issue  :)
I can't make people credit me. Seriously, if they really don't want to put on credit, they won't do it. Very few people will care. Maybe my head will explode. However I do think it's a pity not to credit, because it is not only a small appreciation for the creator, it also has practical use.

Nouk, I can understand that people would like credit, but when they go batshit crazy because they didnt get it? When nearly every download at MTS2 is marked with be sure to thank me and credit me? Thats when I say, come on get over yourself a little, its game content not the nobel prize.

It just really bugs me is all. I dont feel obligated to share my things, in fact I share very little of what I make, I do take requests, if I feel I have time and I dont expect anything in return, not even a thank you, the fact that it was downloaded and not complained about is good enough indicator that they liked it for me. I would be flattered if someone actually got people to pay for something I made, or felt it was good enough to claim as their own, or that they liked it enough to want to share it with others, or they wanted to improve upon it, recolor it whatever.  I must be batshit insane myself. I give up. I will never understand it I dont think.

You can write your name in STR# resources and the filename all you like but it won't show up when people are looking at your work in other people's lots and sims on the exchange, and rarely in the catalogue once they have downloaded it.  They'd have to open the download in SImPE to find out you made it.   That's where Trainz wins out, they thought of all that in the first place.

Thank you. People and their damn feelings of entitlement / demand for worship which they call "respect."

*shrug* I can't think of a real life house or building that I could name the designer of.

and if it wasn't for a label I wouldn't know (and don't really care - I don't buy clothes for the name) who created clothing I buy.

The problem is that some creators just stress SO MUCH about crediting that it becomes... how to say... not useless... I can't find the word. Help?

Know what you mean...can't think of the word either...Redundant?

I am one that likes recieving thanks for the work I do.  Makes me feel more appreciated, makes me want to work harder to please, and to me that is only natural.  I don't force it out of anyone, I don't make it the only means of obtaining my work.  We send files by free links on my forum, there have been plenty members who just ask for my stuff without thanks, and have been given it without any comment on their lack of gratitude.  I don't mind, but I can't deny I like when people are gracious.  

I am also the kind of person who likes giving thanks though too, not just for sims objects.  So maybe that is where it stems from.



As a creator I admit I do like credit.  As you state, it's not something we can stop if someone really wants to remove the credit, claim credit for either.  It's not something that I will get bent out of shape over either, because it doesn't mean THAT much to me.  In generally I try not to let anything online get to me, it's not worth it.  You are right, it is about just a small amount of respect.  If a creator respects you enough to offer you all the work, time and effort they put into CC for free... I think credit is a small amount to ask in return.

Maybe, in objects, which is what I make, I can add my own credit to the description area, which is what I do, so as long as people leave that then I could care less about credit on an actual site or something.  I think for other things, like hairs and skins (OMG this is showing how little I play) you don't have that option.

When you spend time working on something, and then after all that someone takes the credit for it, or acts like they are by not giving you credit it burns a bit I think.  Again, it's not something that you need to shout and get worked up about, but I think it can something that makes you question if you want keep giving to the community.  Especially when you are a creator that requires not much in return for your work, in terms of asskissing and $$

Just my opinion.

Oh, make no mistake, I firmly believe taking credit for someone else's work is highly bad form. That said, credit isn't the be-all and end-all, or worth getting into a hissy fit over in the way some people do...

Oh definately.  To some extent you have to know as soon as you put anything online it's the risk you take.  Making it your own personal drama, or going Retail Sims on it is only going to make you look bad in the end, and make others want to piss ya off more.

I agree with what you say. But then, if you (speaking in general) decided to stop for few cases that happen like that, it's a shame (as I said). I'm not saying creators should just shut up and become a "machine" for players, but if you decide to list a hundred of things about crediting, you'd end up talking to a wall.

I don't think everyone is "evil" and decides to take credits for something they did not do. If the said person just forgot (which happens), I'm quite sure someone will point it out and she would add credit.

I see what you are saying, I mean we all know there are those that go overboard about "crediting".  I was thinking more in terms of someone actually purposly trying to take credit for it.

I don't have any stupid rules about who can recolor my things or how they should distribute them (so long as they are not pay, it doesn't bother me one bit) as I do think that kinda crap is ridiculous though.

I personally don't think I'd be overally bothered by someone taking credit for something I worked on enough to stop creating, but I am not one to judge someone who is.  I don't know what they are giving, time away from family ect, when they create.  So I guess it really depends on the circumstance.

I've always been amused at how people try to take credit for something they did not make. :lol:

You're always going to have the extreme kind of people about crediting and those who don't care at all.

I'm not a Sims2 creator. I've created nothing and don't plan on creating anything. I play the game, that's it.

In defense of creators though, something i've learned in life.....

If you are going to hold me responsible for my mistakes, then you are going to hold me responsible for my sucesses...

So, if i was going to create something for sims2, i would like to get the recognition and appreciation for my creation, not for being a creator.

One reason MTS bugs me..." {insert empty platitudes here} ,downloading", but very few of those people come back after downloading and give an honest opinion or critique, and, in some threads, the few that do are dismissed. So, if i was a creator, i'd definately post somewhere that people were honest, like, um, i don't know, somewhere like, um, MATY maybe...

nuff said, off to the store  :arrow:

Yeah, I think it's been said time and time again, and yet it is still worth repeating, MTS2 is not the place you want to go to give an honest opinion that extends beyond "Thanks, this is great!"

Heaven help you if you actually give an honest critique there!

Well I'm glad there are people with different opinions, or this life would be so boring :)
I've not yet seen someone go bat crazy over not being credited yet, but I'm sure it has happened, with all the drama queens out there. I swear, half the creators are insane! Especially the good ones! :lol:

What good is a "thank you" if it's forced out of someone who was either "raised" to say it for everything that is given to them (even if they don't actually appreciate it) or if they are forced to do so because people are glorywhores?  What good do you get out of it, knowing that at least half, if not more, of those are not really sincere?

I'll say thanks when I feel like it and when I mean it (like I'll usually say thanks to my bus driver, because I know if that were me, I would've gone flippin' crazy over the hell these kids raise).  I'm mostly a lurker, so unless I really want to say something, or I just feel like being silly and know that someone would appreciate it, I won't say anything.

I don't want people telling me things just to make me feel better if they aren't being sincere about it.  Maybe it's just me, but I could care fuck all if no one ever commented on the stories or poems I randomly post on different sites.  Maybe someone read it and didn't feel like saying anything, like I usually am.  Or maybe no one read it.  It really doesn't matter.  I don't beg for attention, and it's annoying when creators do it, whether their items are free or not.  If they really were in it because they love to do it and it's a hobby, then there's no need to beg or ask for attention.  I write because I love to do it, because it keeps popping up at me throughout the years--but I never begged or threatened people into reading it.

Again, it could be just me.

(Edited because I can't spell.  Blargh.)

I agree, Ensign, it's like when people write for the reviews, not for the enjoyment of telling a story.

Bus drivers scare me, especially when they flip out. I've seen it happen and its not pretty.

Oh jeez, FanFiction.net all over again.  :o  When I still did the fan fiction thing I hated when a story I found entertaining enough to want to continue reading was being held hostage because the author wanted to have so many comments before continuing.  :x

Granted, I usually ended up scrapping most of my fan fiction because I hated where it was going, but I never held the story hostage for reviews.  :P

Ensign, I agree to a point. I write a lot, as well. And I write for the enjoyment. But I also want people to read what I write and give me responses. I don't necessarily want the responses to be drooling praise. But I want to improve as a writer, and I believe that other people's opinions, especially when they give constructive criticism, help people to improve.

So I thank people who create wonderful content. And I also understand why people would want to be credited for their work, since they did put time and effort into it. But at the same time, I don't think it's so terrible if some people forget to give credit. Sometimes everyone just needs to calm down, take a deep breath, and share the peace and love (joking...just a little bit ).

I wasn't saying that I wouldn't appreciate constructive criticism and sincere comments--I just don't beg for it or throw a fit if it doesn't happen.  That was my main point.  If someone wants to offer up real criticism or an honest thanks for the random smatterings of stuff I do, I'll gladly take it and usually offer a thanks back.

Ah, sorry for the misunderstandment. I completely agree then!

It sucks when the person says "Gimme reviews or I won't continue to write", because reviews can become meaningless in that case.

S'cool.  I love attention as much as the next person.  :wink:

When people hold their stuff hostage for lack of attention, I just stop reading it.  Unless the author was among the really popular that got reviews on everything they did, chances were by the time they collected enough reviews, the author either abandoned it or I just lost interest in it completely.

I can see both sides of this issue.  I remember when I wrote a sim story and posted it a few places (sims2community included) I did whine a little because I thought my story was a lot better than most of the stories there and those other stories were getting way more readers and worshipful praise than mine was.  Looking back on the experience though I realize that I was being childish.  People should give praise and thanks when they feel appreciative of the creation and not be forced into it with demands and whining.  

I guess that is the part about demanding credit and thanks that bothers me.  My opinion it that credit should be given, but not demanded.  I have no problem with people putting a small reminder for credit on their creations; I just don't like the huge, bold letter, all caps, takes up half a page disclaimer that some of these creators put on their creations.  It just really turns me off for some reason.  I will say thanks and also write a nice post if some is just really spectacular and I love it so much that I can't keep it inside.  Then I fairly gush praise and probably scare the creator a little, but at least they know I am sincere! LOL!

Mat

Agreed. Thanks because they're expected, forced or out of courtesy with no real meaning are useless.

I wonder how many thanks people would have if you took those kinds away.

Actually, quite a few, I would think. A lot of people just like to say thank you when they like something and want to just say thanks for the work. I have no real problem with that at all, especially since it really is nice to know your work is appreciated. I also was just as happy on MTS2 when people just clicked the thanks button. I don't think the problem is with people saying thanks, it's with the way that criticism or feedback has become almost completely frowned upon over there, especially when a person is new. I have seen critiques posted and the creator just kind of pulls a "wah, why are you picking on me, I'm new and I worked hard!", and then everyone jumps on the person who was kind enough to give their feedback like they were an evil person.

As a creator, I understand perfectly how much time and effort goes into these things. Still, I can honestly say that a LOT of creators out there just need to get over themselves.

It's always good to know that what you're doing is appreciated. It does give a boost.

And yeah... the "Be nice, it's my first upload" effect... :roll: there's nothing much to say. Good thing the rating feature was removed from MTS2. I'm pretty sure some people gave 4-5 so they don't get too offended by low rating.

I rated a LOT of shit there 1. Of course, the sheep quickly burried any impact that had.

So YOU were the one that rated my story a "1"! :P

You know I think it should be more about quality instead of quanity.  If people stopped begging for nice comments and thanks, at least they would then know that most of the ones they got were sincere and not because someone felt compelled to push a button to keep them creating.  I will admit to pushing the thanks button just because someone asked me to in their post.  I do try to be nice, but the posts that I actually write are the real deal.  I won't gush over something if I think it is crap.  (I don't say its crap either, I just kind of leave the thread.)

Mat

There are times when it's better to say nothing, huhu.

I gave constructive criticism once on an object at MTS2.  I was even nice, which is unusual for me.  Boy, did I get blasted.  And yes, the entire thread for the object was full of "OMG wow what a fantastic thing, can I have your babies!?"

Learned my lesson, I have.



Gee, and I wonder why they do that.  Maybe it's because most of those stories suck bilgewater so badly that the only way to get reviews is by holding the chapters hostage?

I really dislike those people.

I dislike even more the ones who suddenly post a chapter that is, in its entirety, an author's note saying they got religion and will be deleting everything, then come back for another round with another travesty of a chapter.  Huh?



It's childish but it's not.  There's plenty of crap out there, be it objects, clothing, hair, stories (and even fanfiction), and plenty of sheep who all scream like dying things in order that they might express their worship of the author and their boundless creativity, blah blah blah.

From what I can see, the twits frequently get ten times the praise from the sheeple herd, not because they're good, but because the herd is reading/viewing at their own level.

I've been reading a lot of legacy stories lately.  Most of them seem to be written by people with a sub-par IQ and absolutely no command of the English language, but boy do they get praise!

(Then again, even some of those show up as reviewers for my own stories.  I'm really not sure what to think.)

Not all of them.  I wouldn't have read it to begin with if it I didn't think it was any good, though it's been a while since I did the fan fiction thing so my tastes may have changed.  :wink:  There are plenty of otherwise talented people that do things that irritate the hell out of me, and while I do appreciate their work, their antics make me appreciate it that much less.

I remember, the one thing I ever saw rather less that 4 stars, on MTS2, was someone took that comfy looking brown leather couch, and they stretched the top of it upwards, so it looked all distorted and weird, and posted that. Some people said 'Wow, that's shit', others said 'this doesn't meet quality standards', but at least an equal amount of people said 'Wow, that's really interesting, that's great for a first effort, it looks like something out of a horror movie, THANKS FOR POSTING IT!!!"11'

Which was madness.

No, not all of them, just many. Still, a good author should have no need to beg for reviews, and a confident one, or one who does it for their own enjoyment, shouldn't be holding chapters hostage. :)

(I know, there are way too many people like me who are appreciative, and yet never can think of anything to say in a review.)

And here is a totally unsolicited example of a fanfiction author who frosts my cookies:



Either way, I must apologize.  You see, I read badfic as a hobby and then go mock it in a livejournal community.  It colours my thinking, you know?

Like PotterSues? God I love that community.

Rather like that, but I'm not them. :)  They are on my friends list, though, because I admire their dedication.  I keep wanting to do the Asylum Challenge with seven Mary Sues from that journal as the uncontrollables, you know?



Well, at least there was a point in time when one could be honest, even if one wasn't entirely kind about it.

I gave so much a 1 on MTS2 it's not even funny. I give less than a damn about someone's e-penis. If it's shit, it's shit.

e-penis. Aquamarine, I love you, run away with me?

Sure, but I'm expensive.

I was choking too hard to reply quick enough!

Oh, that comment is so incredibly exploitable...

Go ahead, make me write bad code.

I totally agree with this.  There are a lot of stories in the sim community that just aren't that good, yet get acclaim, praise, and recognition all the time.  So you say you write some sim stories with a good plot and correct grammer? Where do I sign up to read these? ;) I have read a few good stories before on the sim sites, but most are just ugh.  

Mat

Oh, some just like pretty pictures. Or they include vampires. People like vampires. Well, I do. :D

(I don't read a lot of Sim stories because I know that I'd get obsessed with it if I like it... hahaha. I know: it's lame.)

HeeHee! My one sim story was about a vampire since I love them too! LOL! It's called Obsession if you ever want to check it out, although the best version of it is on GaySimsClub2.

Mat

Ooh, awesome! I'll have to register there, I don't have an account. Gimme the link, and I'll bookmark it. Which reminds me that I still have a few stories to read. AAAH. DX

hxxp://www.gaysimsclub2.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5504

That is the direct link to my story.  Just replace the xx with tt.  It does start off kind of shaky, but I think it turns out pretty decent.  And if nothing else do know that I did use correct english and not netspeak to wite it! LOL!

Mat

I apologize, as I should have been more clear there.  I meant that those types of people show up as reviewers for the fanfiction (mainly HP) I write, not Sims2 stories (for that I just post pictures in my LJ from play sessions).

Decent writers get their fair share of sheep reviews, but on some days I have to think it's better than nothing, which is almost sad in a way.

At least you don't see nearly as many people in the Sims2 community screaming things like, "OMG, you pervert!  You're going to hell for writing about gay people!"  (Actually, I can't remember the last time I saw that reaction for Sims2 stories.)

Thanks Mat, I'll read as soon as possible. I have to register an (lurk) account there. XD



Sheeps are still readers! :lol: Seriously, they compose about 80% of the reviewers. Maybe more actually.

Most big communities are about exposure and not about getting criticism. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking of deviantART as opposed to ConceptArt.

I totally agree, but there are some days when seeing "OMG LOL !!!11" or "Kewl!  Write more soon!" tends to make a person consider mass murder.

Personally, I'd rather hear "I liked when suchandsuch happened" or "you spelled RandomName incorrectly" so that I know I've either made someone laugh, or think, or feel something, or someone has been kind enough to point out where I made a massive mistake.

Still, getting the former means that someone cared enough to leave a comment, which is nice in its own way.

The things that confuse me is when people tells someone its looks "exactly like it should!" Seriously, when a Maxis couch is used in a Friends coffee shop, it looks NOTHING like the show.

If I don't like something, I don't say anything at all, because I seem to have no tact. People always get angry when I say I don't like it XD Or maybe that's just the whole problem.

People always get angry when I say I don't like something, as well. Even though I try to have as much tact as possible. For example, someone on the Sims website was telling people that they had the BEST idea. They were going to write a story about a gang (and their rotweiler, can't forget that) who kidnaps and tortures two girls, but one guys won't do it because he had a crush on one of them since SECOND grade. I think the idea is stupid, tasteless, and entirely too realistic. But instead of shooting down their idea, I tried to tell them to keep it tasteful - no rape or gore. They told me, If I don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. I think I threw up in my mouth a little bit.

I think people in general (not everyone!) are just a bunch of idiots who can't take any sort of criticism.

I always catch hell for saying I dislike something, and I know for certain I have no tact. I don't say whatever comes into my head at the time (not usually),  but I'm very blunt, and a lot of people would prefer a pretty lie over the ugly truth. Too bad for them.

Just the same, I'm a writer. I haven't encountered many people who were willing to rip my work completely apart and tell me what's wrong with it, or what could be better. It's called "attacking ideas, not people."

The problem with most people is that they interpret a possible attack on their ideas as an attack on their identity. Can we say fragile self-concept?

I've given up giving feedback to people for writing/artwork/whatever, even though I've never given feedback that is wholly negative (no matter how hard I had to dig to think of something positive) and always gave criticism and suggestions politely, only once have I ever received a civil reply, thanking me for pointing out spelling mistakes. Though the girl in question said that she was dyslexic, and if her beta missed some of the mistakes (there were a lot, many that a spellchecker would correct, so the beta must have been rubbish) she felt that it was too late to change them and they would stay like that. Most of the replies were along the lines of "if you dont like my work, dont read it!!!!" or "theres nothign worng w/my spellllling, my english is graet, fukc offff, hater!!!!" or from the more literate ones, "Why don't you write something yourself if you think you're so good???!!!!!".

I do write myself, and I don't show it to other people, simply because I've never yet written anything I'm happy enough about to show others. If I ever do, I will try to listen to criticism and learn from it, however unpleasant I find it, just like I had to do through my 'A' Levels and my degree. Where do these people get the idea from that criticism is bad?

You know I think that the poster that said that too many people's identities are wrapped up in their creations is on to something.  Whether it is a game creation, or a drawing, or a story I think people do feel that that is a piece of them out there on the net for all to see and when someone says something critical about it, they feel attacked.  I'm not saying that they should, a wise artist is always willing to listen to others' input, but I definitely see the desire to feel a piece of art is a piece of the artist.  Since I am in a way an artist too (a crappy one at least ;) ), I won't say anything if I don't like the creation.  

That being said though there is a big difference between saying that the writer misspelled a word, but you liked the story and saying my god what shit is that, don't quit your day job! LOL! One is helpful to the artist and the other is just mean.  And it is silly for the artist to get mad because someone pointed out a spelling error or grammatical mistake, they should see it as helpful.   It's always good to learn how to make your art better!  

Mat

Well, if they are American they get it from being raised and schooled that way.  Precious can never do wrong and we'll just pass you along.  

I write stories and bad poetry ... but I know that my end results aren't all that great .. I write for myself and, sometimes, for my kids.  Then again I don't push for accolades or anything beyond an email link on the page (mainly for "it's broken!!" not for "Oh my gawd that was cool!").

When I was writing, back in my webtv days, I was a member of a club/newsgroup where we would post our stuff. No one but me ever actually critiqued the stories.  It was all "cool!", "great job!", and "more!". I, on the other hand, would spot big (1) grammar mistakes, mistypellings or dropped thoughts (where an idea was started but not finished). Before I could point that out I would first be sure to drop compliments .. elsewise my messages would have been ignored.

I always wished that others would have done the same for me.. because an honest evaluation of my work would only have improved the final outcome.

To get back to the sims.. I'm getting ready to put up some walls, floors and maybe a bit of recolored furniture. I know that this stuff is Oh So Not great .. but I do want to share.  I do love being part of a community and I enjoy giving back just a little, especially compared to how much I've "taken" over the years. Gives me the warm glow of belonging that webtv gave me in days of yore.

~misty

(1) huge glaring mistakes because I really suck at grammar and the intricacies of most of it escapes me.

I like those responses because they're so delightfully expected.  It usually means you've hit the nail on the head.  And besides, a lot of people can respond back and say, "I have presented my [items|stories|drawings] in a public showcase, and I've even been flamed, too.  Nyah!"



Their identities are, and I think it's a mistake for most people to bother at first.  If a person is that insecure they should be looking to their English teacher (or whatever language) first, to see just how frequently they get corrected, before they ever think of posting in a public forum.

Of course, it is true that in some countries (America seems to be popular) you only need to pretend to make an effort in order to get by, so maybe that idea doesn't work so well.

Still, if you're going to post anything in public, expect that not everyone will love you, your ideas, or your execution (whether that be the idea itself, or the method used to convey it).



I write both.  I also have up graphics work from way back when (and those I usually preface with: This was an experiement, and I pretty much think it sucks when I look at it).

I'm happy when someone comes along and says, "I'm liking this so far, but you've got a huge, massive, gaping hole in your logic over here, and you really need to take care of that before you get too far along."  I'm happy when they say, "Christ, man, you spelled Weasley wrong!"

I'm even happy with someone saying, "Uh, I like your writing style, but honestly?  The story concept is seriously squicking me out, so I'll just wander off now and never come back."

(And I've gotten all of those at one point or another.)

If I were to post Sims2 stuff (and I haven't, I just make things for my own needs for the game, usually clothing--I mean, really, does anyone need a SUSE tank-top?), I would expect someone out there, or multiple someones, to eventually say, "Dude, this sucks!  I hate your colour choices, I think the style is horrible, and I wouldn't dress my dead grandmother in it!"

Y'know, when I first read this, I was tempted to ask you from where in your ass did you extract it. However, when I gave it some thought, I realized that it's true. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." is applied to even something as innocent as constructive criticism, a word teachers love to throw around, but I don't think the average person in the US knows what to do with that considering people explode all over you for saying anything even remotely negative.

Of course, people who can't take criticism well are everywhere, but the US has created conditions that allow for even more to exist. So, good call on that. I hadn't even considered it before today.

'Tis true.  Also disturbing, IMO, is the current trend of people to not be able to divorce themselves from a topic.  I can't disagree with you without somehow invalidating you, or so the current school of thought goes.  Hand in hand with that is that you must meet anyone who disagrees with you with personal attacks, AND if someone says something that is truly constructive criticism, they're picking on you, or acting as though they're better than you, etc. etc.  It really is a sad state of affairs.

Oh, I HATE that one. Some newbies get easily offended. :roll: Hopefully, they'll all learn and actually listen. I'm not saying that all criticisms are good, but they sure can help one to improve.

I've got this steaming pile of shit I call fanfiction at ff.net, stuff I've been writing since I was a freshman in high school, and I've learned a lot since then-- but I feel embarrassed by the shit up there, but then, I don't want to take it down, so I've moved to a new penname for the little I write now that's worth posting.

However.

I'm suprised when  get review alerts on stories that are 2-3 years old saying how good they are.

I wrote a story back then by putting Inuyasha in the sims 1. Feel free to insult it, it's horrible, barely even a story, though I tried to fix it later on by sort of rebooting it. I got a review of it last week saying how wonderful it was, and did I know I could get a maid in that game?  :shock:

Most of the reviews were begging me for the Inu and Kagome skins I had-- nevermind the lack of pictures! Talk about a pig in a poke!

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1071328/1/  <-- the dog turd I wrote back then, I'm so ashamed.

I remember one thread on S2C in the stories section--the girl's spelling was really terrible and I left a comment about how she should use Spell Check/get a beta reader, and she just flipped the hell out, screaming something about how she doesn't go to school and has to teach herself...  :roll:

I have a couple of things left on FF.net too, but err...  You can't see it.  It's terrible and I have poor self-esteem.  :wink:

People have said that to me in the past, and sometimes I become irritated enough with the state of things to actually do it. In the process, I steal their cheerios and pee on their thunder.

On a questionably similar note...

Part of the reason why people like HShambala or whatever annoy me is because they spend a lot of energy trying to disguise what they're really saying or thinking in a shroud of psuedo-logic to avoid having to deal with a truly rational argument. This is a difficult situation, because it's gotten to the point of fanaticism(constant Ayn Rand spewing is a pretty good indicator of this). I can argue the overall point of paysites vs free content vs Mars or whatever, but in this particular case, she's essentially making you debate the entire situation in the context of a book because this is allegedly where she feels comfortable. And I STILL say she missed the point of the book in the sense that she's applying those concepts vastly out of context. However, I refuse to touch that shit with a ten foot bargepole because it'd be an utter waste of my time.

Why? This is an example of a person practically welded to an idea, and she knows it, because she's done it intentionally. Because, by default, when you attack the idea, you attack her "integrity" and everything she claims to stand for, therefore, she can operate from a position where she refers to everyone who disagrees with her as "monkeys" and continue to rant via a vicarious set of principles that validate her behavior. Except, they really don't. And also fail to take into account that the internet doesn't function on the level she claims to. Whoopsie.

[/bitchfest] -_-

That said, I should also give you all the link to my old fanfiction so you can ruthlessly mock it. Believe me, it blows.

Edit: removed some ambiguous wording there.

...is what I said to her about her integrity.

wait, who? where? link!

I read it; it was beautiful.

Brings a tear to me pirate eye! >:B

I confess, I looked, then ran away before I could be tempted to check out the one with Harry Potter in it.



But isn't that the usual tactic for those without an argument?  Attempt to hopelessly confuse the opposition and induce a migraine?  Well, aside from being pigheadedly stubborn.

Yeah, I had a brief internal debate over whether or not that was necessary in that post because it SHOULD be obvious information, but for some people it might not be, so there you have it.