PMBD

Well, with this update on my site, I've switched to a mesh-included policy for all of my downloads (yes, the creators still get credit and links and all that). This includes meshes with TOSes that say "DON'T!" and paysite meshes. All the constant site going up and down thing and people pulling their shit or making it pay pissed me off, and the fact that it was getting too hard for downloaders to get to the meshes they needed prompted me to just go ahead with it.

It's a good thing. It would be even better if more sites would adopt a policy similar to this one >.>

ahem *hint hint* :)

err, before people ask, www.digitalperversion.net

I approve.  With zest!

Im with you  :twisted:

You're brave :)  I've thought about doing that, but I have always been too scared.  Ti's not a bad idea, downloaders really don't have any loyalties.  The popularity of PMBD is proof of that.

It's an awesome thing to do.  Recolors are often the only thing that make pay meshes usable, but not including the meshes just encourages people to pay for them.


As a creator, I'd love to see this happen.  I don't have my own site and there are some pay meshes that I'd like to recolor, but I really doubt any of the sites I could submit to would let me include them.

Fanbloodytastic.  I am totally over the moon.

I hope you set a precedent with this action, and more follow.

The end of the great mesh hunt is nigh.

Thanks, liegenschonheit. I think this is a wonderful idea. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing an oustanding recolor, only to find out you need a mesh from a paysite or a site that is gone.

Great site, btw. I love your cosmetics!

I like this idea. Playing Hunt the Mesh (pay or not) has always really annoyed me.

Especially when a link is only given to the front page of a (messy/large) site and then it's headscratching time as to where to look. (been through that a couple of times in the last couple of days alone.)

I give a thumbs up!

Excellent.  Let's hope that more sites follow your precedent.

This.

Edit: Goddamnit, Blue, you beat me. *shakes fist*

I really like the concept. I was going to do something similar, but of course, chickened out. I think I might actually do it now...

Nice move. Keep us posted and let us know if people start giving you a hard time.

You get my vote. If anyone bitches tell them we said it's okay but won't be available to testify in court  :)

Rah! Rah! Rah! Wonderful idea!

Let's hope more and more will follow your example.

thanks so much i just went ona downloading spree!!!

This is great, I hope people follow your lead.  :D

Yes. I hate it when I find a good outfit and I can't get the mesh, because it's from a site that has closed or something.

I wish more creators would do this too! Treasure hunts are not my thing :lol:

I think this is a great thing you have done!
I've always liked your site, this makes it even more awesome.
Keep up the good work!  :D

Wow... TSR moment. *runs*

I think it would also be a cool concept if someone decided to make edits to peoples textures, like skintones. Some of my favorite skintones (Peggy and Enayla) are 'uneditable' and I've done plenty of recolors of them that I'd love to share, but never could. This applies more to Peggy, since she is pay... of course if Enayla ever returns and sells out to TSR or something, then I'd feel more like sharing recolors.

Well I can tell you that some people have done recolors of pay textures and other things but are unable to share them elsewhere for whatever reason.

If anyone wants to do anything of that nature here (edits, whatever), I'll be happy to put them up in the booty. :)

This is absolutly brilliant. I *hate* searching for meshes, I usually don't even bother to download clothes if I have to get a mesh from anywhere, so thank you.

That said, I deleted the two tsr hair meshes you recoloured, after seeing the way the meshes looked in game. Ick. Not even better textures endeared them to me.

That's a great idea.  I have seen a few others change their policies on mesh inclusion with downloads.  I'm glad to see you do this too.

I have included some meshes myself in a few items but sometimes I worry about getting "caught" and I don't want to get the site(s) into any trouble with the mesh owners.  LOL

I hope you don't get any shit from mesh owners for doing this.

I don't know.
While I myself hate to upload stuff on my site without the meshes, and I try my best to use only meshes that are redistributable, I wouldn't redistribute someone elses work if that's against their policy.
I always try to follow and respect other creators (free or pay) policies, even if I don't approve them, even if I think they're wrong.

I'm not trying to say you're disrespectful or anything, and, yep, rules are there to be infringed, but, if everyone start to follow only his own rules or only the rules he/she approve, that would be anarchy, even on internet.
Anarchy looked super cool when I was a 16een years old punk-rocker ;P, but isn't in fact *that* great.

On the other side, when I download something and then I have to go look trough 100.000 other sites to download the meshes, I get quite annoyed.

So, I don't know. So far I've always thought that giving accurate directions to download off-site meshes is fine. As far as I know you're the first to have this all-meshes-included policy.

(Completly excluding pay meshes) Except for Peggy, and a handful of creators at MTS2 (with the addition of the "no sharing outside of MTS2 meshers :roll:) there are not many creators who have a no-mesh redistribution policy.   Helga is one that comes to mind, but I'm having difficulty thinking of many others (again, this is excluding TSR, or other pay sites and pay meshes)

I don't blame you for deleting the TSR meshes, I don't use them at all for normal gameplay. I use them mostly for pictures where you can't see that they don't actually connect right to the heads.

Anyway, I feel no guilt in sticking it to TSR and pay sites by using their meshes. I actually have written permission from Sussi to redistribute any of her pay meshes I want, just not the pay textures, and that's kind of the same tact I am taking with the others. Still, I am trying to be considerate to the creators by providing credit and links back to their sites or threads. The reason I held off going this route for so long was for those people that provided free meshes and didn't want them distributed, but lately things have just seemed to get very messy what with people moving and closing down so often.

Also Stella, I am not trying to plunge the sims community into internet anarchy... heh. I'm actually following a generally accepted code of conduct by game modders for just about every other game. Give credit and a link back or way for the original creator to be contacted and everything is kosher.

*edit* Also, pay sites are kind of dumb for not letting the meshes be redistributed in my opinion. One of the reasons SimChic has become such a popular and highly visible site is because they do allow mesh redistribution. This prompts people to check out the site that is making all the new meshes and some of them end up paying. Also, I hate having a million meshes that all look the same because some pay sites don't like to share.

I wouldn't either.  I am just having trouble thinking of "free" sites that have "no redistribution!" rules.  Elau allowed distribution of their meshes before it closed, as does Helaene (soon to close)  Did Sims Rubicon?  I don't remember.  He didn't have many useful meshes anyway.  Lots of crazy stuff though.

This is the reason everyone should adopt your policy.

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=165332

The mesh is no longer available.

Exactly TeaII. I get really frustrated when I recolour something then go to post it and the mesh had disappeared. It seems to be happening more and more often lately too.

Drew from Sims Rubicon was kind of a selfish ass when it came to his meshes and things. He said people could use them, but if he even suspected partial use of his alphas or any of his textures, then he'd throw a tantrum and demand they were removed. Eye Candy had a recolour of some of his 70s flip hair, and he created such a crap load of drama that they were pulled. Same thing happened to me on MTS2 when I did some recolours of one of his hair as a request for someone. He threw a tantrum and said that I was a thief. Luckily, I didn't care that much as I thought the hair texture was a piece of crap to begin with, I was just much to lazy to make my own for a hair I didn't even like :P

liegenschonheit, i hope your a pioneer in  a new field concerning mesh distribution.

Of course it is.

http://www.rogepost.com/n/9991734246

I may eventually adopt this, but I think I would keep my mesh redistribution to free meshes only, and whatever I found on TSR.  I'm not a member of TSR so that means I got it on free rotation anyway :)  We'll see.  I'm interested to see how much flac you take from the paysite defenders.

Eheh, I don't think you are either.
But, while I generally understand and approve this "policy", I'm not sure I would use it on my site/uploads, since I try my best to respect other creators policies...
Yes, I know, said by a file sharer this might sound pretty self-contradictory XD, but I can't help but think it this way.
I'm curious, tho, to see how you'll manage to go trough this thing and how will downloaders and creators react to this.

I'm also pretty curious to know Hysterical Paroxism point of view about this subject, since she's a member here.
I quite enjoy her meshes, and I find her redistribution Policy pretty restrictive, especially since she's a MTS artist (I have nothing against being a creator over MtS, but lately its downloads are more likely to be down then up and it's such a tragedy to download stuff there).
I'd love to know wich reasons make her decide to forbid the redistribution of her meshes and how would she feel if someone would ever redistribute her meshes somewhere, with credits and everything of course. :?:

Heh, I was thinking of chiming in before now but it looks like I've been called out, so here goes.  I'm gonna try to keep this short (y'know, for ME).  I tend to ramble.  Still, go get a beverage now.

I'll happily admit that the small amount of recognition and worthless "fame" I get from creating is pleasing to me.  I would still totally do this stuff without it, but hey, it's nice to have someone come and say thanks now and then, or write me a note that they enjoy my work.  If folks get the meshes from me, more of them tend to get both the original recolours and my other stuff - and may take a moment to go "Hey, her stuff is cool."  I like that.  Every creator likes that.  So, on one hand, it keeps people coming to me to get my stuff - I'm totally cool with people posting recolours, using my textures, and even using my textures for other stuff if they give credit - the only thing I really hold onto is my meshes.

In addition, I will always ensure that my work is available.  I have (and will always have, through my dad's small hosting business) free hosting for whatever I want to slap up on the internet.  My work will always be available, always for free, even after I quit Sims 2.  I believe there's still my old Creatures 1 and 2 modding work in a web archive somewhere (not that anyone plays it anymore but if they did) as I've done game modding before, although certainly nothing like meshing.  I'm not the throw a fit and take my ball and go home type - I've been pissed and tired and annoyed enough that I've wanted to quit the whole community plenty of times before, but I'd never pull my stuff.

I occasionally update meshes as well, so I would prefer people come to me to get the mesh for recolours.  There are a few of my meshes that... I would like to fix up sometime soon, with some imperfections that probably only I notice, but are still there and need fixing.  Downloaders sent to me for the original mesh will get the latest version, still working for whatever recolours, and because they have to visit me to get it, they may see important information I've posted about it, or related links they may be interested in (like a version for another age group).  

There are always exceptions, though...  If someone whose name I knew (like liegenschonheit - and I almost spelled that right without looking) and was a creator I respected for their cool stuffs, I don't think I'd have a problem with just about anyone doing -anything- with my work (with possible exception of my hair meshes, as seeing someone mess up what I have slaved over the way I do them would just kill me).  Provided they just ask me first.  I have the utmost respect for artistry and good creators, and if you show me that courtesy and respect, I'm willing to bend my terms, especially if you're making something totally cool.

I don't feel my policy is over-restrictive.  Many creators don't want you using their textures at all for recolours of their meshes, which strikes me as a bit silly.  Anyone's welcome to use my textures with a little link and credit for whatever, even non-sim-related.  It's just (I think) a small thing to ask, the little bit of respect and "professional" courtesy that I hope for in the creation side of this community.

My work has been stolen, redistributed without credits, and I've had people claim (using parts of my original upload text) that my work was their own.  I have learned to ignore it.  We're on the internet.  That happens.  I want to continue to enjoy creating so I turn a blind eye, and I try not to let it bother me.  

I think it would upset me if someone whose work I had enjoyed and whose artistry I had recognized went and did so without taking 5 minutes to send me a PM asking first.  I expect it from the rabble but I would hope the truly talented would understand the time and effort it takes to make something nice, and extend me that small courtesy.

BTW, since the most recent sets of upgrades and improvements, the downloads on MTS2 have been pretty darn solid.  I've had no major issues or borked files since then, both as me and logging in as Sussi testing things and uploading her stuff through that.  ;)

I think liegenschonheit is more pissed about the fly by night types, who pull their stuff on a whim.  They aren't likely to have updated stuff.

HP you are well established.  I couldn't see a problem with linking back to you for meshes.

Maybe liegenschonheit could put a disclaimer on the site, stating that their may be updates and recolours to the original mesh, with a link back.

The greedy downloader lurking (lurking?!) in me immediately thought yeah this is great news!, and so I voted yes, but what I had in mind were in fact the paysite meshes. I actually think that to include meshes would be absolutely fair, in our piratesque peculiar way, as long as paysite meshes are concerned  :mrgreen:

That said, I really don't see the reason to include free meshes against the freesites' creators' policies. I mean, why offend the freesites creators? These people do deserve and should have from all the community that solid respect that no amount of whining from us, the downloaders, should justify to prevaricate.

Besides, for me it's like HistericalParoxism just said, when you have to go get the mesh you are also offered the opportunity to take a look at stuff you may never have seen otherwise. Sure, I often so roll my eyes at having to go seek for the mesh, but many times in just that exact way I have stopped at the site where the mesh is and have started browsing through stuff, even forgetting about where I got there from, and thus finding out about great creators whom I would maybe never had a chance to know if I had found the mesh included (um...consecutio temporum? verbs?? help! :shock: )

Like I said before, posting meshes by free creators who don't take their ball and run away wasn't really the main point in this move at all. I held off doing it because I didn't want to step on the toes of those creators at all, especially since HP has a very good point about updates and that kind of thing. You'll notice that I mentioned that whenever possible, people should go to the original site or thread and get the updates or information if available.

HP, I'm sorry if I have upset you personally or any other creator who has such a good track record for quality and consideration of downloaders. You are right, I should have asked for your permission before uploading your meshes out of courtesy. That one was shame on me.

The caveat in all of this is that I couldn't pick and choose which meshes to post against the creator's TOS, and which not to because then it would become a big mess. I hate to say it, but I did expect that a few people who I would not otherwise like to upset would probably not like the move.

I have not changed the policy about links to the sites that the meshes come from. I also love following the chain of neat sites to find something really cool, and I'm not about to break that. Every item will have a mesh linkback whenever possible (meaning the site hasn't been removed). I'm not trying to take the credit for any of the meshes.

Well, I'm not a fan of restrictive mesh distribution policies as a downloader, because if I have to go to multiple sites to get meshes and the like, that increases my chances that I'll have a broken item in my game.  What if my internet goes bonkers and I give up on getting the mesh?  What if the site's down and the same thing happens?  What if I downloaded multiple items on the same page that need multiple outside meshes and I forget to download one?  They all end in useless item for me.

I understand creators wanting to keep control over their meshes, but to me it seems like an all or nothing deal.  I'd want my mesh to go with the recolor, because if it slips the downloaders mind to get it, or there's a problem with my hosting or what-not...if my name sticks in their head, then they'll think that the reason it didn't work was me!

It does stick in my head when people don't allow mesh redistribution, and I generally don't download the recolor and I certainly don't follow the link to the mesher's site.

The one exception to this is links that stay onsite...to a mesh page, or internal MTS2 links to other MTS2 creations...but I figure half of that is because it would be silly to have fifty copies of the same mesh uploaded to one site.

I already have too much junk in my game.  If I have to go a million places to get things, you're helping me exercise my self-control.  I didn't really need that outfit, anyway. ;)

Well, no, I can't say I'm too pleased.  I didn't realize you had actually already -gone- and redistributed one of my meshes, which does bug me, yeah, because you're someone I would have said yes to had you asked (and who I respected as an artist, before today) nor was that mesh hard to find or get.

I don't really see it as a problem if someone disappears, but if it's accessible and it's free, why?

I do understand where you're coming from and wanting to make things easy for your downloaders... but I -am- kind of upset by this.  It's your site - why NOT pick and choose based on whether the mesh is going to be accessible?  If it goes down or whatever, fine, but.... err.....  why post meshes that are freely and easily available, when it is not necessary and will only serve to upset the creators?  I do understand a mesh in a haystack things, and sites going down, and I hate pay sites as much as the rest of ya'll, but this just doesn't make sense to me.  It's just not necessary, and the only real justification I can see behind it is enabling laziness.

Like I said, I ain't gonna take my ball and go home, and I try not to let stupid shit like this get to me, but I find myself continually disappointed in this community... and I find myself wondering why I spend my time creating for it more and more.  If even creators I held in high esteem will simply ignore the (what I thought were quite open) policies on something freely given, what's the point, exactly, in sharing my work with the community?

I approve too, some times I just get so irritated downloading then find I out I have to search for the mesh somewhere else.

Dragon

I ran into the same very thing this morning when I found some skirts with boots I wanted and the mesh is on a site no longer there...

Dragon

You see? What is happening about HystericalParoxysm is quite significant and IMO was absolutely avoidable, if only a little more respect for those who deserve it came to mind more often that not  :wink:  

In the community I am a mere downloader, I do not run a site nor have I any remotely artistic skill whatsoever, but somehow I do understand how creators must feel about their work, and the point remains that when the mesh is FREE, comes from a FREE SITE and is easily accessible, including it in the recolour or whatever without asking and against redistribution policies is a tastless and disrespectful thing to do. C'mon...we downloaders might be lazy but we definitely should not complain at all when it comes to FREE STUFF, even if this means go and follow link after link in order to get a mesh. Which, BTW, hardly ever happens after all...most of the times I just click one link and find the mesh I need, AND when I don't it's hardly ever a mesher's sloppiness to be blamed: it's in fact mostly because the recolor uploader has posted a general link to the mesh site's homepage instead of the specific link needed.

And even in the worst scenario - mesh corrupted, site down, etc. - we can't say junk is not easily deletable from our game :wink: Deleting it  might be boring and all, but if a choice has to be made, I'd rather keep the respect of FREE stuff creators than treat downloaders like spoiled kids and satisfy their every childish whining. We're talking about little signs of gratitude for the free creators, so why step over them too?

Since Liegenschonheit is giving credits and links back, I don't see how she's violating anything or anyone.
    And if one more person says that the downlaoders are spoiled, I'll scream. The creators (not all by any means, but a good number of them) are the ones who are spoiled rotten in this community. Someone learns how to use Photoshop and Milkshape and suddenly that person is no longer a mere mortal, s/he becomes all-knowing and the masses flock to them. Those page-long TOSs and what have you are nothing but ego stroking and control issues. Supposedly, you put it out there for people to use, distribution is a part of that.
    Yes, the creators deserve our thanks and respect. Respect, however, is a two-way street. Unfortunately, long-winded sermons from on high and ridiculously restrictive policies are often what we get in return. I think what Liegen is doing is great and I hope it spreads to all sites.


(To those creators who make beautiful things for us and have short and fair TOSs, I really do thank you and you certainly not included in my rant above.)

For petes sake, if Liegen asked every fool who makes a mesh (free or pay) if it's "okay with them" and thier ego for her to distribute...with credits I might add...then she would still be getting sign offs.  Who wants to make a whole list of yes and no "artists"?

If you are wondering why you create for this "community" then quit.  This shit is a game and it's fun to make new things for it.  If you want recognition, praise or money--get a patent.  If not, then don't whine.

I think any creator would be honored that quality artists recolor their meshes and distribute them with credits to the author AND links to their site included.

It is certainly better to be pissed off than pissed on, so get mad if you must.  Honestly...do any of these people pay your salary??

 :roll:

I too hate the nice warm feeling I get from the page long threats/TOSs HP posts in her each and every download at mts2.

If creators have 10 mile TOS and it bothers you, drop them a pm and let them know how annoying and restricting it is. And that you won't be using their stuff this way because you can't be sure it will always be available.

I'm not really bothered because I hardly ever recolor anything that's not mine. and my stuff can be either included and linked back to, if credited.
Less bandwisth for me :P

I just don't use any custom meshes on my sims I share anymore. The problem is that I would have to jump through all kinds of annoying hoops to avoid including them since I have Pets. I also upload things to the exchange now and creators really can't stand that.

I don't think liegen is doing anything wrong, but I'm not willing to go through the hassle she will. I really wish creators would get over it, and make it easier for everyone.

Actually, I think that liegen has done it the right way. I personally think it would have caused more angst and more shit fights if she made an exception for a few creators, rather than treating them in a blanket manner.  Otherwise, then she'd have to put a list saying "The following people are obviously or possibly unstable or mean, and therefore, I will be violating only their TOS, whereas, I have permission from this list of stable, kind people".

Singling people out will make them feel like they are even more alienated.  And indeed, there are links back to the original content.  If I find a nice recolour, etc. then I usually check back with the original creator, see what other shinies they have.  I would then get the information and see all the stuff you want me to see.

As for your personal issues with this, HP - come on - almost everybody who has downloaded knows your stuff.  I personally have everything of yours on MTS2 already (excluding your wall and floor set), and I believe I have thanked you for every single item since I got broadband. I don't think that this is an issue, and if I downloaded from liegen and installed, it would merely ask me if I wanted to overwrite the previous file.

As for the laziness of downloaders - it's not really laziness that is the issue.  At times, I don't have the time to go and do the mesh hunt, and there are some things I haven't downloaded because I couldn't find the mesh (some people put a link to their front page, and sometimes I find something long after it's front page news).  There's also bandwidth issues, or the 503 timeouts that one gets with MTS2 - if I didn't have broadband, I would be pulling my hair out about those.

Sometimes a site is not available - but I am not available at all times to go and check where it is.  Or, it may not be available for a couple of days, and I don't even see the content because I've forgot.

There is an item on Liegen's site (a tophat thing) that had a link to the mesh on MTS2.  I checked out her site the other day and clicked that link to download the mesh, but guess what?  It's been deleted.

You people read them TOS'es? Really? Because all those readmeplzreally!!!!.txt or rulez!!!!.htm go straight to recycle bin as soon as I unzip the file - with exception of hack descriptions, of course. I cannot care less what tool a mesher used, I'm not bloody bothered by creator's opinions on fat or gay sims -- as soon as a file gets on my HD, it's mine to do what I damn well please.  

So, from where I, simple user, stand -- while HP does have a point about a mesh getting possibly updated or improved, I find liegen's rule way more user-friendly, because if I see a link like "13rd mesh in the second row from the list on the www.simbum.com", I think "Don't need it". I also agree with calalily's post before - it's all or nothing. Singling out particular creators as 'possibly unstable and untrustworthy' isn't a cool thing to do. Besides, even if you are 100% sure now that your stuff is forever, there's nothing forever on Internet. Very unstable, place, this. You never know what can happen. 8)

It's nice to see that in everyone's hatred of paysites, they've forgotten that the alternative is free creators.  It's also wonderful to see the vehemence, anger, and utter lack of respect that the community extends toward a free creator.  Never done anything but give away nice stuff for free and try to help, and tried to offer a fairly rational explanation despite being upset... which is responded to with nastiness and ire. Typical.

I'm not sure why I was expecting anyone here to have the slightest sense of honour or decency.  The fact that my mere suggestion that someone ask permission has been met with ridicule drives that home.  I feel a bit silly for expecting some sort of conversation that might come to a point of compromise between everyone involved.  But there are those here who simply want to tear others down, no matter what they do.

Asking that meshes that are freely and easily available not be distributed is a small thing, and not an undue stipulation.    It is the lack of respect and courtesy from one creator to another that shocks and upset me most.  I expected better from liegenschonheit.

The policy against redistribution of meshes is quite common in this community, held by many many creators.  Remember in your zeal and hatred of paysites that the alternative is free creators.  Yes, there are many who allow mesh distribution, but many do not.  If something isn't free, easily findable, or has been pulled, of course, I understand that.  But violating someone's terms, when that is the -only- limitation and the mesh is freely available doesn't make any fucking sense except for encouraging laziness.  Yeah, you have to click two more times.  Poor baby.

Meh, screw it, if you just want shitty paysites meshes to redistribute and whatever's left, fine.  I got better shit I can do with my time than make crap for people who clearly don't care one bit for artistic karma.  Hope all of you enjoy trying to fingerpaint in your next life.

.. :shock:

If you ignore people blatantly stealing your work, why are you all uppity about people blatantly not stealing your work...?

 :?

ETA: Liegen, judging by certain people's responses, I think the dramatics in the title were about right..

Jeez, dude. Chill?


I blame corporations, monopolies and other filthy capitalista swines. It's their fault copyright issues got  artificially bloated to ridiculous proportions (probably one can copyright even one's sound of sneezing now - and sue everyone who sneezes alike), now normal people are taking a bad example and overreacting. Shame, really. ;(

Amen, word for word.  Hysterical Paroxysm you may go to CC creator's hell,
and please give hugs and kisses to Hchangeri for me. This is just my opinion,
and it does not reflect the whole PMBD.

Really, I can understand why HP is pissed off.  I love the idea of a site where I don't have to go mesh hunting.  It makes me angry to be told, "Oh, go to Peggy for the mesh.  It's a clothes mesh, and they all look similiar, but you'll be able to find it, right? Right!"  So I love what Liegen is doing.  But HP has never asked for a dime, and although her TOS is long, at least it's a funny read.  And basically, all it says is, "Don't upload my meshes, share my recolours w/ credit, use my textures in whole or part for free sites, use in pics, stories, movies (which some artists actually say not to, wtf?)."  She's actually a lot more lenient than a lot of creators.  But everyone is crying because it's sooo long.  As much as I love what Liegen is doing, I can comprehend why HP is saying, "Wait, what the hell?".  But what I can't understand is why her voicing rationally why she doesn't like it is cause for everyone to start saying, "Yeah, screw those free creators!  I don't care what they say!"

/drunken rant

OK, some people were mean to HP, who is a great, free creator. But I think refusing to allow mesh redistribution with full credit and links is unworkable. I love HP's stuff and used to use it all the time in my uploaded sims. Now, I don't, because it's too much hassle. It will only get worse with the next Exp. Object creators have had to deal with mesh inclusion from the start. Including meshes with body shop items should have been done from the start, now it's causing all kinds of pain and anguish when it shouldn't.

I like HP, she's generous and creative, but obviously this is a huge sore point. I don't see things going back to the way she would like them to be and though it's unfortunate it is so upsetting to her, that's how it is.

That is so true.  HP has some nice things, some not. As does any creator.  WTF is wrong with redistribution with FULL CREDIT AND LINKS???  

I don't really understand why HP is angry.  THis is a FREE community, because selling this shit is illegal.  SO...

being that HP's stuff is free, what is the problem with a quality recolorist distributing her meshes with recolors with full honors to HP???

I create stuff (a lot of stuff) and they are all recolors.  I ask that the mesh artists TOS are heeded, but I couldn't care less what anyone does with my alphas and textures.  I do my recolors because I like doing the art stuff and being creative.  It's fun to share them.  I sucked at first but I am pretty good now.  I have fans!   :roll:  ROFLMAO!!  And they all have the right to do whatever they want with my stuff.  Upload it with sims or lots, because who gives a shit??

All I asked is for a little credit and a link to my stuff.  Hell, I probably don't get that half the time.  LOL  BUT, I don't give a shit.  WHY???  Because I like making the stuff and sharing it.

If one is in this for the money or "prestige"  (OMG ROFLMAO!!!) then they are in the wrong line of hobby.

JMO

Note: below is a generalisation of all downloaders. I'm sure you know of yourself if you're one of them. Let's just say I can't be bothered to nuance, since i'm pissed.

[rant]

Ok, WTF is wrong with asking for the teensiest little something back?
A lot of people in this thread are looking very much like a bunch of whining brats. Sure, they get lots of CC (great, free CC) and free help from people like HP, and it's never enough.

"What! ONOES! I have to READ something?"
"ONOES, I have to respect someone's wishes?!!!"

Fuck that, you want everything, and you want it on your own damn terms.
Nevermind that it was given away free. Nevermind that a lot of meshers do it, not for the money, but for what little thanks they get. I know HP does, and so do I.
But no, pushing a thanks button is too much to ask, finding a rar-extractor is too much to ask.
Hey, let's wish all cc creators to hell for even voicing their opinion in a rational way!
How dare they have a TOS! How dare they ask for a little respect!

And then, when you've got someone to the point where they give up, you complain that they're dramawhores.
Lovely.

[/rant]

Actually Lieg is just going back to the old school ways of making recolors of others' meshes.. including the link to the creator's site on your site and in the zip/rar.  I hope more readopt this practice.

I don't know if you guys have realized but this community is filled with a lot of "colorful" personalities.  Off the top of my head only HP comes to mind as a free creator that will stay free.  I can't stay with any degree of confidence whether any other creator will not go off the further deep end and pull his/her site down or from a collective site like MtS2.  What good is a recolor without a mesh to go with it?

What this boils down to is control.  When uploading to the interweb you relinquish your control.  All the fist waving, screaming, and crying cannot change what others will do.  You can try to take it to court but you better have the buck to back it up.

ETA:  And Lethe, I know you're upset but to blast a generalization that, as typical of a generalization, does not apply to the greater whole does not help matters.

OK, first off. I've never downloaded anything from MTS2 without saying thank-you and often I leave a grateful comment.

Those who refuse to allow their meshes to be redistributed even with link and credit are fighting a losing battle. Even BeosBoxBoy (who made some great posts over here before the great purge) has let go and allows any free site except the exchange to include his meshes. Now that's a policy I can live with.

So when using a creator's meshes in a sim using the tools provided by EA I have the following choices:

1. Go ahead and use it, giving a link and credit. Chances are, people will want more of creator X's work and follow the link, give them all sorts of warm fuzzies, etc.

2. Jump through all kinds of hoops: maybe download "Legacy Body Shop" and copy and paste all sorts of files into it everytime I make a sim. Or I can export and re-import the sim, purging all meshes.

3. Don't use that creator's meshes at all. Then no one visits their site as a result of my creation, no one even knows what a great job they have done, will ever thank them or give them any feedback.

Seems to me there's a fundamental question creators have to ask themselves. Do they want their work shared or not? If it's a lot of bother, people will either disregard the terms of use, with or without credit and links, or not use it at all. Is that really the choice you want to leave them with?

After Seasons, we'll be 2 expansions into a body shop that includes meshes. It's only going to get worse. I'm having a hard time understanding why including meshes with full credit and links is such a devestating thing. I'm not trying to be rude, as I said, my solution is not to use those meshes. It can't be what a generous creator like HP or Lethe for that matter really wants, is it?

angelica,

ok, so I slipped and ranted.
at least it made me feel better :)

What I meant to say was this:
Yippee, you stupid little egotistical bacteria, you and your attitude deserve to be hung from a tree and set on fire.


also,

I partly understand Liegenschonheit. I do. It tends to get annoying, having to click through sites, especially the flash ones where you can't link the actual page the mesh is on. Not to even mention the pay meshes.

However. I also get cc creators. And so does Liegenshonheit. The fact that marvine's meshes, for instance, *aren't* included, means she knows very well that it'd upset him, and that she respects that. Or that she doesn't want to get in trouble with Insim.
So why not respect other free mesh creators?
It's been stated that HP, to name one example, will not be taking down her meshes. They're easy to access, her policy is pretty damn liberal, but somehow she got the wrong end of the deal.
I have no problem with meshes being included when they're no longer available, or hard to get at, or hidden behind pay screens. But I really don't see why you have to basically tread on someone's TOS, just for the heck of it.
What good does it serve to piss meshers off? Without pretty meshes, there's no pretty recolours either. Meshers and recolourers have to find ways to work together. And respecting each other is one of the basics. Or does everyone want to make dresses for maxis meshes?

Marvine is a she in fact and her meshes can be included if I'm not mistaken, that was part of Beos' announcement. Liegen explained that she hadn't uploaded meshes for all of her old things yet.

I know I was harsh to HP but apart from her TOS I take it back too after your fashion Lethe.  Honestly there is no balanced facio ut facias when it comes to
HP's creative talent, I can't give anything that is as good as her CCs.

Actually, the reason I haven't included Marvine's mesh yet is because I'm lazy and haven't gone through to include meshes in previously uploaded work. Rest assured that I do not intend to discriminate either way with this one. I'm not trying to piss anyone off or step on anyone's toes, but I can't please everyone and playing favourites would just make this way worse than it is already. Lethe, I am a huge fan of yours and have been for ages, so I hate to think that doing something like this is pissing you off, same goes for HP. But I am not going to back down. As soon as I start picking and choosing who's meshes to include and who's TOSes to respect, then the shit hits the fan for real.

Also, on a side note, due to demands of the community, Marvine and BBB have given their permission for their meshes to be redistributed with credit and a link. Also, even before that, and before I even asked for it, BBB contacted me and said that if I wanted it would be okay to redistribute the meshes, so this is not me playing favourites.

Perhaps you should actually read my post - I didn't shit on you, or say anything nasty of the sort. Nor did I spew any hatred, or disrespect.  But what if after this rant (and regardless of what you say about leaving your meshes up no matter what - because drama whores do it all the time) Liegon decides to put you on the list of those who may at any possible time go apeshit, excluding you from the list of reasonable people because of your little spit and because you may pull your stuff?

That's what other people are going to get.  

As for asking permission - if you insist we all do "click two more times" - then apparently you aren't going to give permission either.  

And as explained previously - it isn't always as easy as "click two more times" - what about the 2 weeks when I couldn't download from MTS2 without a 503 timeout?

Hmmm...   :?  

This has got to be one of the more confusing threads for me. Maybe i'm being a bit simplistic here.... but hasn't it been established that EA actually owns the .package files. They made it quite clear with Pets Bodyshop that they wanted all .package files necessary for the downloader to be included...

EA must be laughing all the way to the bank... If they actually had to host all the CC that's been created since TS2 came out,  it would have severely cut into their profits....

I can understand creators who don't want other people to take credit for their creations... it's happened to me a few times in life... I've done the work but someone else takes the credit, and it's not a nice feeling...

However... how can there be any TOS's or restrictions placed on something that isn't owned by the creator....  Kind of like me offering to sell you a house I don't own or allow you to use a car i don't own

Like i said, maybe a bit simplistic, but unless/until EA changes it's policy about ownership of the .package files this debate is rather pointless.... EA could gather up all the CC tomorrow and put it behind a pay wall and there is absolutely nothing the creators or paysite operators could do about it....

Just my 2 cents

Damn straight, Liegen.  You go girl.

Marvine and BeOSboxboy have really the best body meshes available (save Warlokk's) and they have made their TOS all inclusive with credits and links.  I have great respect for these particular meshers because they have always wanted their work to be free (so far).  They have never bitched about what you do with their work and the only thanks they want is, "thanks".  I recolor their work a lot and they are both ALWAYS thankful and say really nice things about my creations on their meshes.

I was ranked on once when I created an alpha for a dress.  I happened to be similar to another "artists" rendition and she rode bloody hell to the site owner that I "stole" her alpha.  The site owner pulled MY creation because this bitch thought mine was hers.  The fact that I was called a theif pissed me off pretty bad because I hand made that alpha myself.

So...in a way I am completely sypathetic to creators when someone steals their work and claims it.  BUT I cannot understand when a creator doesn't want to allow their stuff to be used with FULL CREDIT!!

BlackPearl, I think all the issue is really in the way this thing was made. HP never said she'd never give permission, it looks to me she in fact said quite the opposite. She basically said that if someone she knew and respected, like Liegenschonheit, asked, she'd be willing to bend her own terms and give permission. Then what happens is that Liegen shows up and kind of dismissively says ouch, sorry for uploading your meshes without even pm-ing you. Now. I find it so very human and understandable for HP at that point to go "wait, WTF? you already did that?" ":shock:  :("

Why this seems to be so not easy to understand really is beyond me. Like I've already said, we're just talking about little, very very little signs of respect for FREE creators. Approval and respect don't always come together, you may not approve but if you're fair, you'll still respect, or so I believe.

I love that. How many shapes can a neckline be?  Don't worry though, I stole it first ;)  I steal everything!

I want to say that: while I respect HP for her meshing abilities, (which I could never hope to have)  I find it deeply annoying that she, and other creators, won't allow mesh distribution with or without credit.  I understand the creators need for ego petting.  Not many of us have the balls of Carlew, to keep creating even with so many people telling you you suck, or worse   :shock: But to be honest, I would sooner not recolor a mesh I can't redistribute, just out of principle.  I want to keep things as simple for my visitors as possible.  If others have the same policies as me, then those who choose to not allow mesh distribution are really shooting themselves in the foot... if what your seeking is popularity.  

Simchic is a great example.  Most people arn't members there, their stuff isn't really worth paying for (since most of it is availible for free elsewhere) but their meshes are so widly used... there arn't many people who havn't heard of the site.

I'm curious why creators need to have TOSs to begin with. The way I look at it is you like the game(you do remember it's just a game, right?), you think it would be cool to make x item and share it with everyone. As long as you get full credit for being the original creator of x item, I don't see what your gripe is. Liegen is even going beyond that and giving links back, I think that's more than fair.

Also, I wasn't being mean or disrespectful to anyone and if it came across that way, I do apologize. I have several things by both HP and Lethe in my game and their efforts are greatly appreciated (and I almost always hit the thanks button), just not their attitudes. While what you make is really nifty, I think perhaps you should stand back and look at the big picture. You're creating for a video game, supposedly because you enjoy doing it and like knowing that others use your things. I think the long TOSs are just plain silly and make you look pretentious.

(Note that I'm using "you" in a general sense.)

So, we're destroying free sites now too?  

I thought the entire purpose of this site was to make available items that were otherwise unavailable without a credit card.  

People here are griping about creators wanting a download link back to their free sites where they host their free meshes.  Please.  I signed on for destroying paysites not to discourage people who make free meshes from putting up websites and offering me free stuff.

Is sharing meshes really destroying free sites?

Why bother to create a website if no one is going to visit?  (Suddenly thought of that tree falling in the forest saying).

If the only thing that someone wants after devoting hours/days in creating something is for me to press my finger down and to go to their website then I can pay that price.  It's a nicety.

The big concern early on about this site was that paysite owners might stop creating once their meshes were liberated.  It hasn't happened.  Yet.  But I think the relationship with free site creators is a much more fragile thing when the only thing they get out for their time creating is a message in a guestbook.

We're not talking about redistributing the meshes uncredited.  They're being linked back.  If you download a neat looking item, you're likely to follow the link and explore the site it came from.

I can't be the only one who'll go to download something, see I need to depend on another site to make sure the item works, and then not get the item or go to the other site?  It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I don't really need any more downloads, and I certainly don't need any more broken downloads.  I'd just rather not add in another variable.

If you're all for letting someone play in your sandbox and share the results (you allow recolors), then why in hell wouldn't you want to make sure the recolor was immediately reusable?  I can get not liking recolors, period, but jeez.

I'm sure this is why Maxis made BodyShop include meshes in the package files.  It's annoying as hell when people share things that don't immediately work in-game.

I like the idea. Shuffling and reshuffling (because I must have missed it the first time :roll:)  through pages of damn-near identical meshes isn't really my thing. Nor is following links to long dead sites (one in particular, SIMsentanious, or whatever, pissed me off the most. Oh, and I'm still mad about it).

Finding FA_randomnumbersdumbnameMESH.package is even more annoying. I think, MTS2 is the only place that doesn't bother me- if the creator sends me the meshes page and not the home page.

I think (trying to think as a mesher would) a shout-out that, hey, I used one of your meshes in my work on my site and included it in the download, would be enough. Because I can understand why you wouldn't want your stuff distributed EVERYWHERE and no one tell you. And I can see why they wouldn't want there meshes edited- it's way too easy to add a bow, and claim everything as yours.

But to skin, and add the mesh in the download, with a link back to original site on the bottem of the download...is fine to me. It gives credit, and is a nice and neat way do it. And I'll go to that site anyway to see what they creators ORIGINALLY did with the mesh if I liked it so much.

I've never redistributed meshes- I wish I had the balls to though.

God, people need to get the fuck over themselves.

Edit: Actually, I'll try to make this post a little more worthwhile.



This is so horribly condescending and snotty I don't know where to begin. Not to mention that no one (aside from yipee, but I don't know what the hell's going on there) was being rude in the least. Yeah, so good job showing respect for the people you're demanding it from.

Aside from that nonsense - I really, really dislike mesh hunting. Chinafansims comes to mind... when a mesh isn't included, there's a link to the site, but in most cases there's no indication as to what the mesh actually is. In most cases, I'll simply not download the item and move on if I have to look too hard for the mesh. You may think it's "lazy," but I say I shouldn't be obligated to scavenger hunt for something that may or may not be available in the first place.

HP, in your case (as has been said) you're very well established. People know you mostly from MTS2 and you're clearly not without comments/admiration for your work. But you're the exception, not the rule. And given the shitfits that have been thrown lately in this "community," it's been more and more difficult to find certain items. I think you're making this far more personal than this really is.

I swear, this is really the only medium where people seem to be able to get away with having such weird issues. As a writer, I'm happy enough when people actually *see* my stuff.

Agreed with everything. If people  create CC for reasons other than "It's fun and I'm loving it, yay!" - e.g., reasons like validation and praises from complete strangers on Internet - methinks they should find themselves a new hobby, because old one isn't working properly anymore.

Ok, Liegenschonheit, I jumped to conclusions. It was something that struck me, on your site.
While I don't agree with what you're doing, it would make sense to me if you went 'all the way'.


As for the reasonc cc creators have to upload their stuff, I don't think you can tell them 'why' they should be doing it. Different creators have different reasons. Some do it for the money, some for 'fame' and some for fun or whatever.
I know I started cause I was unemployed and had too much time on my hands, not to mention that the compliments I got upped my self esteem a *lot*. Enough to keep going and *do* get a good job (which means I now have hardly any time to make meshes).
Sappiness aside, it's probably not a good move to tell creators to go home if they're doing it for the thanks. Nothing ever comes for free, and I think a huge majority of cc creators upload their stuff, at least in part, for the attention and thanks it gets them. And really, is it that much to ask?
That's why the TOS's are sometimes long, and why they would get upset if you take that away from them.

Why not? Sauce for the gander and all.

I have a few somewhat lame mesh recolors from before Pets. If the original mesh maker, or anyone else for that matter, wanted to repost them. I don't care in the slightest. I don't much care even if they don't give credit and a link, but I don't expect most creators to stretch that far.

That was exactly how I felt after reading HP's post. Just because people disagree by expressing their opinions, doesn't mean they're being plain nasty and angry.  I myself do not entirely agree on what Liegan is doing, but I can somewhat understand her reasons, and everyone's else who has supported her decision. So far from what I've read of their opinions, they did not sound malicious nor resentful. They brought up their case in a mature manner, and even express their gratitude and respect to HP.  

But if there's one thing I noticed for some time, HP tends to patronize, so I guess it's no surprise to see her acting like that.

RIGHT!  That is what I was pissed about.  For petes sake, I made the damn thing how I thought it was pretty and I guess someone else had the same idea.  But to whine and bitch to the site owner that it was "stolen"??  That is another, "Bitch, please" out of me.  

But Dour, I KNOW you stole it first...  ROFLMAO!!

 :lol:

I am reading and understanding both sides here.  I realize some meshers just want a little "courtesy call" by an artist just asking.  But what if they say "no", and others say, "yes"?  It would definately become a hassle to make that Yay/Nay list for a recolorist.  Honestly, meshers/artists/recolorists/creators should really be honored that thier stuff is being used and redistributed for FREE and anyone with any salt as an artist will give credit to the meshers/artists/recolorists/creators that they use and redistribute.  

Those that are upset right now are pissed at those that are admitting to redistribution with credits.  I think I would be more pissed at the little fuckers that take your shit and redistribute it withOUT credits and claim it as their own.

JMO

Hey Liegen, I uploaded half your content to my site and credited you, we're still cool right? Lol  :o

Next: Doursim!  :P

(lol completely pointless because I add no artistic value by uploading something that 1. has nothing to do with me, as to I did not create anything with it 2. is allready on the web)

No, I think a recolor/retexture is different from a mesh. A mesh is a base for making possibly thousands of clothing items.  Using someone elses textures as a base is different to me, (especially without permission) because it reeks of lack of talent and/or lazyness.
Plus uploading someone elses textures is pretty pointless to me. :)

I can maybe see it with a hair texture, if you want to make alternate colors that still look like the same head of hair.  You know, different shades of natural colors, some wacky shades, or adding streaks and the like to the original textures.

I can't really think of a valid reason for clothing textures, except maybe using a plain t-shirt as a base to make ones with logos and sayings on them.

I dunno, I think that a "dreamlist" by the mesh creator wouldn't be too bad.  Yes, it's already available somewhere else, but this is a compilation, if you credit each texture with a link to it's homesite then isn't that basically free advertising?  Nouk, if you listed your favorite recolors of any of your hair meshes, that would direct a pretty chunk of traffic to any of those sites.

i know some creators who allow you to reuse their shoe textures especially altheltic (sp?) shoes.

lol Nouk :P
Sure, go for it. Nothing in my (pretty much nonexistant and totally unenforced)  TOS says you can't, just stick a credit on there somewhere. I will admit that yes, I like recognition and all that good stuff, but I'm not too picky on where I get it. At some point, I just decided that my policy is to really have no real policy, it's much easier. If you actually take the time to read the thing, my TOS actually states that you can steal my alphas and textures, if you want.

Nouk, I for one seriously appreciate the fact that your policy allows for distribution of your meshes. I know for a fact that people are still clicking links from my site to get back to you, not to get the meshes, but because your stuff is so nice that they want MORE.

Anyway, yeah. I'm not all out to destroy anyone or to take away from their accolades or anything like that. I want to make things easier on the people who download from me, and to be honest, on me. I get PMs and Emails all the time from people saying "so and so site is down, and I can't get the mesh! Help!" Yes, you may have no plans to take down your site now, but things happen and then we all get the headaches again.

So I'll reiterate, one more time. I am not trying to destroy, hurt, be mean to, or otherwise punish any site by doing this. I don't have any vendettas and though I think this is a good idea, if other sites don't want to do this, thats fine too. I don't believe having meshes distributed freely harms anyone, if that was the case then SimChic would have been down a long time ago. I mean no disrespect to anyone by posting their meshes, if anything I am showing my gratitude and appreciation of the meshes by using them for my recolours. I try to weed out the crappy ones in the hopes that they just go off and die somewhere.

LOL *grabs everything and runs*

But I was thinking, your cause is to upload more complete sets for the downloaders to enjoy, with mesh included.
Wouldn't it be better if you find a bunch of sites that agree with this cause, make somekind of letter together, and send them out to meshers who's stuff you enjoy.
This way it's seen as a joint initiative and it comes about more positively.
Bringing it as something meshers would percieve as something negative will make them less motivated to ever let anyone upload anything with their meshes. (Like HP, who would have given you permission easily if you had just contacted her in advance.)

Ultimately you an I and alot of creators (we're not the only ones, obvioiusly) would like to see uploading meshes with recolors and credit as a norm. So would you like that idea?

I would certainly sign that letter. :)  I've always despised that policy, and would love to see mesh included packages become standard.