PMBD

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=214586

Well. I like it. :)

The winds of change seem to be blowing

Finally aprofilic member of the community makes a good statement about this. :)

3 Cheers for delphy, and he mentioned Pescado too :)

That statement, was one of the best reads I have had this year.

I think that was the paysite debate thread condensed.

Wow! Way to go Delphy!

That is the second phenominally large step in the right direction (JM making the first, of course.)  May many many more site owners follow Delphy's well worded lead.  :lol:

After reading the statement by Delphy it sounds like this is a new year heading in the right direction at last.  8)

This is an excellent statement. I love his views on paysites. *claps* I agree 100%.

omg  that  isa awesome speech and  notice he kept saying Sharing

Great speech. GO DELPHY!

Although, I was hoping to see a heated debate (read: flames and drama) about paysites in the thread rather than sheep going "OMGZ MTS2 IS T3H ROXXORZ!!1 LOLOLOLOLOL!!!111!1" even after Delphy told everyone to think about the community, not just MTS2.

Somewhere around the fourth page he mentions that it wasn't just him who wrote it though. ;)

Let's hope he didn't have to pay someone to embellish it a bit. ;)

Not that there would be anything wrong with that.

As one of the tweakers of the text in question (punctuation, spelling, and some minor wording changes for clarity - the outline and main text and the overall eloquence is all Delphy's), I can say with certainty that I was paid the princely sum of $31337 for my editing contributions.

Hehe.  I knew most of it was Delphy.  Having read some posts by him lately, it does sound like him. :) However, when I read that he had help, you were not the person who came to mind. ;)

*BlueSoup whistles innocently.

I wasn't the only one.  ;)

Jesus played a big part too.

White hats for everyone!

Although I may not take to Delphy I do appreciate his sentiments on sharing.

Hehe... I was happy to see that he spoke out against the Three Great Evils by name (Peggy, Rose and TSR).

I think that it will give some people even more of an incentive to NOT donate to those sites, seeing as how many ppl hold the opinions of MTS2 as very influential.

Wow... that was awesome speech. It's good to see more and more people against paysites. Arr!

Bluesoup,

The credits list is in the wiki version. :)  I wrote the bulk of the text, and then some of the staff read it over, fixed typos, suggested alternate versions of sentences and so on, but the bulk of what was being said stayed intact.

And no I didn't pay anybody to do that - why the heck would I? :P

We'll have to see what kind of impact this has in the community now.

LOL Delphy, I don't want to say what I thought, because that would invade your privacy.  Regardless, I thought it was a good post and I am really happy that MTS2 is taking the steps it is, seeing as it is so influential with younger, more naive players.  :)

I posted this on the mission statement thread, but you'd probably more likely to see it here if you returned any time soon:

I think it would be awesome to reinforce all this with just ditching pay mesh recolors.  Hopefully with the Poser Initiative, there will be more free meshes to play around with...and maybe convince the utility creators to bar pay sites from using their utilities?  Enforcing it wouldn't be that practical, but the idea may become a bit self-policing, and also deter the more "moral" creators on the edge between free and pay from falling into the abyss.

And I think what TSR is doing needs to be shouted from everywhere...because it seems a lot of the people on the edge think that TSR should be an exception, when they are really the worst offender and need to be boycotted first, rather than last.

Oh wow, I do hate how much I seem to like Delphy these days!! :P

Splendid stuff. And pirate cake for all the tweaky contributing types!

The whole pay mesh recolour thing is something that I'll be re-visiting later on.  We've only just implemented the flagging system so then I can see just how many items we have on MTS2 that are pay mesh recolours and see how big the issue really is.

Applause, Delphy. That was a great statement.

Hurrah!

Well done, Delphy!  :D

I hope to see some changes in the Sims comunity very soon!  :D

Reading through the thread, someone suggested Delphy put a disclaimer on the Meshtool 'no paysites blah blah.' As Delphy pointed out, it would be impossible to inforce or prove.

However, IF there was a disclaimer on SimPE--how could they make an item without using SimPE?  --it would be proven. There may be no 'punishment' but the fact that everyone KNOWs it was made with SimPE and therefore selling the package would be a vilolation of Quaxi's terms of use--that could be enough to deter at least some 'buyers' from buying. ?

I like how many times he mentions the word FREE. I don't think anyone can miss that subtlety.

I agree. But I think it's too late to change the TOS for SimPe now.

Actually, the TOS can be changed at any time. Also, it is the responsability of the USER of a tool to keep current with the TOS, the creator isn't required to make any notification (however polite it may be to do so).

If the change was made with an accomanying front page about it, everyone would see it.

I don't know what Franks stance is on this subject. I think probably teadrinker is the 'messenger of choice' here, only one I know for sure that is on this forum and participates on his. ?

Well, that'd be great if they did change the TOS.  :D

Right.  I know it may be difficult to absolutely prove (though everyone would know), it would definitely make them all look bad in the eyes of the community, which is a vast improvement over the toleration of paysites.

If I had made SimPE, I would do it.  I may have done it earlier.

Delphy's statement is most def a step in the right direction. And yes, I think that boycotting of TSR, Peggy & Rose would send a message to them: Your thievery and bullshit excuses are not the business anymore. We don't believe you.... you need more people!

I was very happy to see Delphy's views on Paysites and i know this will make a big difference to the Paysite v/s Free issue.

it is a good statement and i applaud the sentiments expressed

but we have yet to see whether those greedy sods and "exclusivists" will actually take any notice

ever the cynical pessimist, me :oops:

MTS2 is a biggie in the community. If Delphy's statement is widely publicized it will have an impact. Probably much bigger than PMBD. PMBD is a catalyst, but the ball needs to picked up by larger players. The key may be letting the newbies, sheeple, and  whomever else who is not up on the issue know about it. Maybe a Google bomb of Delphy's manifesto would help.

Well, MTS2 (http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?threadid=214586)'s mission statement is an important step in the right direction.  I think it's a good statement (though I had to force myself not to skim and actually read it :P)

Lurker here but it has to be said that your trouble making ways helped bring about much of this change in the Sims community.  Thanks for having the guts to stand up to all the pay sites and helping us to see the truth. Keep up with the file sharing because that does keep pressure on them. I for one will no longer pay a dime to any pay site.

In reply #9 the first site he thanks is MATY. That is amusing.

I was very happy to see Delphy's mission statement for 2007.  MTS2 is a very large site and reaches so many people.  It is great to get this info out to everyone.  The winds of change are beginning to blow...

Well, that was an excellent end to the day (I had to resist tl;dr impulses as well, but I made it through). It manages to adequately express what people have been trying to say on this issue all along. Huzzah.

WARNING! Possible silly sentiments and feelings ahead.
I'm feeling a bit stupid, but I think the message this video suggests fits perfectly with the concept of Pescado and MATY's "troublemakers" and the avalanche effect on the community.

Just adjust proportions a bit (heh, nobody is Gandhi, or Einstein :D - and sims2 community is not "mankind"), and forget for a moment that this is an Apple commercial, and you'll set ;).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lExYZdw6AUI

It is a great day when Delphy shows the world of simmers what the whole concept of sharing means Kudos to that.

Numenor Confuses me in a matter about Free vs Pay?

on about pg 3' of this subject delphy wrote, numenor points out how bad it is for those who have gone pay with what they have learned for free.





but was'nt he one of the people who allowed the CEP to be placed on any site "Including Paysites"?





If this could have been prevented in the begining when people asked that it stay for the free only, then maybe about 30% of the pay sites would not have the stability they have now,

Would all of this have prevented Simpe from allowing "Paysites" to use his product as well? did Numenor have a helping hand in that?

I am glad they are finaly realizing this may have been a horible mistake from the get go but the cep still states it can be used on any paysite...

Will Numenor be removing that statement now? I surely hope so!

The "sharing" line is an excellent stroke. It appeals to the genuinely nice and the genuinely greedy alike.

I'd like to thank Special Guest Villain TSR.
Almost everyone combed through the rotation, and having that cut off exposed a nerve.


There's going to be a lot of this now that MTS has come out anti-paysite. A lot of creators and modders do hate paysites, but they either didn't want to make waves or they didn't agree with free-sharing the pay files. They didn't want to be tarred with the same brush as PMBD.

And yes, some of them are going to jump in and declare anti- just because the cool crowd has. Such is life, and better that than the alternative.

That said...from what I've seen before, Numenor is sincere.


This is hindsight.
Remember that in the beginning, paysites mostly were just a different way of gathering bandwidth donations, and hosting cost was a legitimate problem.

At the time, the issue with paysites was that people didn't want to pay and didn't want to lose their favorite sites, not that businesses were setting up shop and harming the free community.

For-profit sites mostly came about after free and reasonably-priced hosting returned, and they didn't spring up all at once. It's only in the last couple of years that it's become epidemic.

It's not the fault of Numenor and Co. that people have played fast-and-loose with the bandwidth permission. I doubt anyone expected EA would let it come to the point where blatant commercial sites have no fear of retribution.


I wouldn't count on it, at least not for now. For one thing, it's completely unenforceable, and would turn some people off (failure to share).
If this snowballs, perhaps later. And it already is- Insim has an announcement up as well, though it's more subtle.

Now all we need is for a few of the more volatile paysite owners to have a litter of conniptions. That would drive the point home nicely.

Come on, dramaqueens! You know you want to!

I disagree that a full boycott will help anything... after all, we don't want people to stop creating altogether (although if they do take their toys and run, more power to them *rolls eyes*). A boycott of the pay part of the sites, certainly. Which, yeah, amounts to a full boycott of TSR. That sits very well with me, for some reason... ;)

I think that be a good idea, but how to get the boycott going. You have so many people that love TSR.

You know, I've never really "got" that.

The first cc site I visited (besides the exchange) was MTS2. When I finally did get around to having a look at TSR, it was so overloaded with crap and so badly designed by comparison, I left without even d/ling any free stuff.
Some of us still have to pay for our broadband over a certain useage on a per meg basis. Having to look at a plethora of crappy recolours w/o proper thumbnails just shytes me.

Boycotts don't really work.
I don't think it's necessary anyway. TSR's own changes have scared off their former supporters.


Some of the FA content is good. The rotation cut down what you had to wade through, so it was possible to put up with their abominable site design. I'd just pop it up in another window and flip through when something else was loading.

It's sad that the interface is actually worse when you're trying to use the full site rather than the rotation section. Part of why their claim to charge for a superior service is so laughable.

Beth if you see the FA stuff, its much different than the free stuff. The free stuff can really be bad. At least have a quality check or something there, but they dont.

I thought the statement was concise and well said.  I have been a member of MTS2 since it first became available and have full respect for everyone that shares and contributes on that site.

Without it, the gameplay just would not be worthwhile to me.

You know I'm coming to respect him more. Since he canned Lyric's ass he has taken the stand point he used to: Pay sites are evil.

Check out his post at s2c in the "Have The Paysites Debates Changed Your Mind?" thread.
And I don't care if I link it..... :roll:
http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?p=728550#post728550

Which brings me back to wondering: What the fuck is Lyric's angle? She doesn't even own a paysite, why is she so incredibly, rabidly pro-paysite?

I think the paysite owners have hired her as their "bull dog"

Although rather confusingly they still host and link to a paysite.  It never occurred to me Sapphire Sims would be a paysite till Delphy mentioned it on the federation forum.  I was quite shocked.

She's joined up with Exnem, a paysite.


Delphy has found what he considers a 'safe spot' between paysites and filesharers. His stance is that filesharing is wrong and so are paysites. See? A nice safe/neutral area between both sides. Very diplomatic of him.

IMO, if paysites didn't require a 'donation' [read PRICE], if the idea of paying hadn't become as prevalent as it is, the files would be offered for FREE as they should have been since they are made with free programs, mesh importers, tutorials, help, etc. (as I've said from the start and Delphy reiterated in his statement.) Filesharing of 'a piece of a program' because that IS what a package file is, is not even close to 'filesharing'. The term 'filesharing' and the stance that it is 'wrong' came after the spread of pirating of software programs, Phoptoshop, Sims 2 and other games, etc. That to me is 'filesharing.' I can't find anything wrong with sahring a piece of a program, IMO. I'm waiting for a valid argument to change that opinion. Anyone wanna take a shot?

Filesharing wouldn't be an issue without the existence of paysites.

However, I do believe that one can be pro-free without being pro-filesharing.  It's not only Delphy that believes that, and I respect it.

I don't know if I respect the stance or not.  :?

sickpuppy, who says you have to respect it?  Personally I don't think 2 wrongs make a right (as I've said), and the whole pro-filesharing thing is really going about "destroying paysites" the wrong way.  I doubt very much that it'll have much of a long term impact (sorry to say it, but filesharing has always happened in this community) - better to simply educate people and give them alternatives.  

Just try and see things from a bigger picture - you don't want to alienate creators becuase of pro-filesharing, you actually want to encourage free sites (and thus, anti-paysite) by showing alternatives to hosting etc.  You also don't want to alienate a lot of people who, for them, "pirating is bad, mkay?".  No matter how you put it in terms of pieces of software, you are putting yourself out to be "pirates" - avatars, forum names, sigs etc - and for many people thats a bad connotation.

You don't have to respect what I do - god knows many others dont.  That's perfectly fine - you have your opinion just like everybody else.

Oh and just fyi, Sapphire aren't a paysite. :)

Yes I noticed the button wasn't working!  Good show on them, but now I want a voluntary donation button so I can show my appreciation :D

The subscriptions page does work - still has all the old ones on, but those will go soon.  Just use Donate / Support at the top if the javascript one doesn't.

Bravo. Clear and concise and totally on point.

I didn't say anyone siad I had to. If Anyone DID say it, I'm sure I'd go quickly to "I DO NOT respect that."




Said just like a politician. Good for you, Delphy, and I can see that it can be good for MTS2 and hence the users of MTS2. But good all over, in the long run? Probably not, since it often doesn't work out for politicians in the long run either. Hence, I'm undecided where I stand on the stance.



So what? it's fun, period. If anyone is making more of it then that, they need to get a grip and grow up. If someone calls someone a bitch, that person may joke about it and call themselves a bitch without ever meaning they think themselves a bitch. Everyone around laughs cuz they know the source. Same here.

PS. Also, my indicision on your stance is borne of experience with your viewpoints and attitudes that have ...waffled a bit, Lyric Lee comes to mind and how people tried to point out to you she was 'way off' in her dictatorship, but you chose to ignore it for whatever reason. I don't care the reason, it hurt the site and it hurt individuals needlessly. So I am not 'climbing on your wagon, just because it's the 'right color' today. All that said, I DO think you took a great big step for the community and I think we all thank you for that. It did quite a bit in restoring my 'like' of you....but..... I'm not 'sheep status' yet.

JM, for comparison to make this more understandable, I willing bring virgin goats to lay at his feet. He has been steady in his opinions on everything from the git go. Those opinions always have been in the interest of the community and the game with no hidden agendas.

I think Delphy's point is that, as leader of a giant organization, his hands are tied- he can't afford to alienate any significant portion of the community by advocating something like filesharing just like a secular leader can't afford to alienate a good chunk of his or her citizens by advocating a particular religion above another. He has to play nice so that we can be naughty and people can pick and choose, or be part of both.

Yes, I can see that. But don't know if I agree it's ...'all good.'

Wouldn't it be more 'anti-paysite' if he allowed signatures to with links to this site and SFV? Afterall, he allows signatures with links to paysites.

Delphy this doesnt hold with me. I snipped this off a comment of yours:
Just try and see things from a bigger picture - you don't want to alienate creators becuase of pro-filesharing, you actually want to encourage free sites

This alienating the creators, the only alienation will be those being paysites, not creators that do it for fun, game enjoyment and all. We want to bring down the paysites its a bad practice. My feeling is if these people think their work is so great that, they should make money for it then fold up your site and join the Poser and other 3D communities, where money is charged for the product because it can be used in a proffessional capacity. Also to me its a scam when you ask for a donation but are actually subscribing. While this site might seem extreme, I can see why it was necessary. If you make their donation files freely accessible to all the community then, slowly the demand for them diminishes, that would then in turn mean no more new subscribers, people unsubscribing, etc the numbers going down. Also, I see frustration from some of the posters that they cant mention this site on MTS2. I dont think you hate us, but if you dont say anything on MTS2 and this site was promoted there (I could be wrong here, TSR is under EU laws and you are, maybe they'd try to sue you? None of us would want that as we love MTS2, but if TSR is generating Millions, they can harass you with lawyers. So I can see you having to step carefully with rules and disclaimers. And I noticed that forum software has rules too from that software company.  Seriously, I think all the initiates from Sims Better Bussiness, the free site coalition, the Poser Initiative, MTS2 strengthening, and this site, will take a toll on paysites. I think the whole disussion has got everyone thinking, and looking at paysites differently.
I think there is going to be a big bump in Sims 2 players when seasons  is released, so by then hopefully this movement as a whole will have momentum, will hopefully lesson the amount of new players using paysites. Just my opinion here.

Becuase then you'd get into pro-filesharing which is a whole seperate thing than just being anti-paysite.

I realise that some people want everything to be totally against paysites right now, but change has to happen over time.  Sure, I've made mistakes in the past (hasn't everybody?), and recognised those and hopefully worked some to get through them.

I allow links to paysites becuase it's the individuals prerogative.  One thing that TSR has done lately is severly limit what people can and can't put in signatures - you aren't allowed to link to your own blog, for example, unless it's Sims related and PG-13.  Excessive rules make for very disgruntled people over there (so I've heard), and thats notwithstanding the definition of a paysite can vary depending on who you talk to, so limiting it in signatures isn't something I've even considered.

There will always be people who are "on the fringes", and thats fine.  Change can happen from those fringes, or from the big organisations in the center - so long as the change is a positive one and is beneficial to the entire community, then thats good for all concerned.

Some people have yet to make up thier mind about this whole thing, but the more people realise how this community was founded and built up the more will realise that paying subscriptions to paysites isn't the way forward.  Encouraging them to go to voluntary donations or ad revenue, or whatever, is much better.

With all that said, however, I personally have absolutely no love whatsoever for TSR, given thier business practices and attitudes in the community, so far as I'm concerned they should be nuked from orbit - but only after all the good creators have gone someplace else. :P

I smell Bull Shit.

IMO, this is two faced.

I entirely agree with you on this point.  Spreading the message is the key thing here.

The thing I meant about alienating creators is that, yes, they are getting money at the moment, but maybe some of those are out to just create - some people who are at TSR post stuff on free sites, for example, so you can't label all creators who get money with the same brush.  

It's a tough call though, but I think a creator that knows that thier stuff is being shared regardless of any policies they might have by this site (and, by extension, the "free community"), might think "well, they are stealing *my* stuff so why should I do anything for them?".  It's unfortunate, and I wish it didn't happen, but creators can be... well, very strange. :)

To lure those creators, you need to think in terms of other communities where they could potentially be getting much more money - TurboSquid, the Poser ones, stuff like that.  Basically it's dangling an even bigger carrot so that they'd realise that they don't have to be on a particular Sims 2 paysite, but can instead give to this community for free.

Unfortunately, this community has been dealing with paysites since the Sims 1 days, so a lot of the work needs to be focused more on the paysite mentality of the community as a whole rather than sharing a few files here and there.  You'd get a much better "result" in the long term.

Have it your own way. If this particular forum removed the file-sharing links (ie the Treasure Chest forum), then it would only be the discussion side, and then I'd link to it, but I do not think that what you are doing is the right way to go about "destroying paysites".

You want me to polarise to your way of thinking - sorry but I'm not going to do that.  I have my opinions and the opinions of my staff and half a million members to think about, so no matter what I do, part of it wont be liked by a portion of those.

You smell bullshit, fine, I don't really care - I think the message is more important than filesharing, so think what you will.

I disagree. It's really quite annoying that people don't seem to be pointing out that it IS PMBD that got this new spark of discussion about paysites going. It's these nefarious pirate filesharers that is now allowing all of you to come out of the closet.

No one was even doing it the "right" way. Before it will succeed, people have to know about it. And they aren't going to know about it if big sites ban talk about it left and right. I'm glad you did finally leave the one thread up. That turned into a good discussion.

But those of you who were fence sitting don't get to now "define" the conversation and the revolution the way you want. PMBD came out of the closet in a big way and started this latest discussion in the sims community.

I've been following this for years. This might indeed be my first post on PMBD. I've got 5 kids, one of them still a nursling, so I don't often have 2 hands free to type. But I do read. A lot. Lots and lots of threads. And I've been playing first Sims 1, then Sims 2 from release. I've watched this paysite SHIT grow. And I've watched people waffle. Hell, I've waffled. Until PMBD made it "ok" to talk about it, no one WAS talking about it, in public at least. Everyone was all "Oh, I understand how the creators deserve credit. Oh, they must pay for bandwidth."

gethane, your whole post is about the aspect of discussing paysites - which is what has happened, and thats good.  Sure, PMBD may have been a catalyst, but it was the discussion of why rather than any specific actual filesharing itself that provided the climate change we are seeing now.  Yes, the filesharing had an impact, but I think honestly thats more for the shock value and to get people to listen to the message, more than anything.

I'd be happy to hear from BlueSoup or Pescado about whether they thought the filesharing in and of itself was going to destroy paysites, or whether they knew that it would spark discussions and that would be what kicked off the revolution?

If the message is more important than the filesharing, then linking here shouldn't be a problem, as the filesharing doesn't matter so much?

You're going around in a circle.  I can understand not wanting to discuss it on your sites, but I think allowing signatures would let the conversation flow where it ought to.  Someone brings up the site that must not be named, and they have a link to phorum.mustnotbenamed.com it's a no brainer.  And there would probably be less mentioning of it on your forums in the long run.

If there's a link to the booty in the Treasure Chest forum I don't know about it.

I wasn't trying to change your mind Delphy. IA person has an opinion and they usually stick to it, regardless of what anyone else says. I was just stating my opion of what you said.

This phorum IS the right way to attack this problem. It's made great strides so far, that no one else dared to make before. (Pescado has big ones :)) This site is needed mostly because of the way the subject was handled at places like MTS2--delete the threads, ban the links. Yes, you have taken a giant step in the right direction with the 2007 mission Statement. Wasn't the statement 'down with paysites, let's stop them'? THIS site is taking the steps to actually stop them, where it counts the most, in their pockets which is all they care about. That is not wrong. MTS2 has taken the second seat, helping spread the word. And that's a good thing.

Still, allowing links and threads to and about paysites and not allowing links and threads about SFV and PMBD is counterproductive and definitely sends a confusing, mixed message.

Not true, and I'll tell you why. Prior to having an alternative to GET the files, people were afraid to come out on the issue because of things that DID then happen. Paypal information being shared and people being banned. Now it doesn't matter so much. If you get banned from Rose or Peggy, big deal. You can just get the files here now anyway. Before it was extortive (if that's a word). If you came out for free sites and sharing, you could and were banned from paysites.

Edit so that's why the filesharing AND the discussion is important. (eta). Don't just talk the talk, walk the walk.

Honestly, I don't expect this site to destroy paysites.  I have never expected filesharing to destroy paysites.  I've been a filesharer (though in the closet) for a lot longer than this site has been around.  The only thing we've perhaps accomplished is pissing off paysite owners (always good) and maybe causing less people to pay for content (though it actually may have caused more people to pay, specifically to share, because I know my paid content has increased dramatically since I started sharing seriously with SFV).

I joined this site and took on the booty as my responsibility more because it's better to have some control than not, and I would rather not see some sites up in the booty (for example, Around the Sims 2 and Rensim) because while those sites accept donations, they are not paysites in my opinion.   Not to mention that since Pes doesn't use CC in his game, he has no clue when it comes to it.

I do think this site has blown the discussion wide open though, and hopefully through discussion a revolution can come about and paysites will fold due to lack of interest.

But this site wouldn't be as dramatical and eye-catching with another name. ;)

This phorum is ONE way to attack this problem...  one that I have come to realize has its place, and can spark interesting discussion, but is not the sole way of doing it, nor my preferred method.

In order to get rid of something this pervasive you have to attack it on all fronts... and that includes educating the general community not only that paysites are bad, but -why- they are bad.  Give them real, logical reasons that they can think about and make up their own minds.  Give people who might pay $5 to a paysite think instead about putting that money toward their favourite free site.  

Give people who are running a small site that's getting a little costly some ideas for better hosting, ad revenue, and ways for the community to network with smaller site owners to provide them with options - so they don't feel the need to go pay if costs get steep.  

Educate the community and make the history and credits for the tools and tutorials more available and prominent, to encourage loyalty to the free help and support that's given, so that the up-and-coming creators never think of going pay, and people realize how ridiculous it is to pay for content for the game.

If you can do it in a way that presents it informatively, helpfully, and with a positive intent, to make more good content available for more people, then you have a chance of making truly positive change.

Being against paysites is not necessarily the same thing as promoting, advocating, or allowing direct discussion/links regarding filesharing.

Carla Niven totally crashed my browser though.

I do agree though that there is a disparity with links in signatures - Openhouse Jack (he uploaded to MTS2 today) and others can link to their paysite - either where they post their creations, or even in the paysites debate.  

You may not agree with paysites, but if you say that they are entitled to link, and PMBD are not, that sends a completely different and not impartial message - it still means that paysites are seen as condoned, yet sharing your paid content with others is not.

I say if you won't allow PMBD links, then paysite links should be banned.

Calalily, quite a good point!

I completely agree with that as well. :)

It's one more way to help combat the rising tide of paysites.

What I said....

The issue I have with the treasure chest forum (and hence linking of PMBD in sigs) is that it basically advocates filesharing in that it's a list of "stolen" things, and also asks for money to help with the endeavour.

You say that paysite links should be banned from MTS2... I say stop trying to dictate what goes on there - notwithstanding the point that has been made time and time again that a site that has a great sharing policy you would still class as a paysite (SimChic) or actually is mostly free with only a few sets etc (AroundTheSims).  

Or perhaps I should just turn into a forum nazi and just ban all sigs and all links altogether to anything remotely resembling any kind of site.

Frankly I'm getting tired of the extremist attitudes of people here.  I dont tell you what to do, but you seem to think you have some right to tell me what I should do?  *shrugs*

I almost preferred it when you all hated me. :P

But you have to understand, you are giving preference to paysite owners over filesharers, leading the official MTS2 stance to be: Free > pay > fileshare, rather than just free > pay, and THAT is what we're all objecting to.

It's like, you can rant and rave about how awesome paysites are without a problem, but mention filesharing and you'll be deleted. How is that more moral than TSR?

There is the other point, that we aren't exactly PG13 or teen friendly.

There is a lot of adult stuff on here.

I love the fact that 'anything goes' here, but some parents might not.

*ducks.

I take issue with the word "steal" as it's not accurate.

I also take issue with the donations part of it.  If you knew how many people were sending me the exact same stuff from the exact same sites, you'd ask for a bit more order as well.  As for people wanting to help me out, I'm not forcing anyone to do so.  If people do, that's awesome.  But no one is under any obligation to do so.  I've spent a lot of my own money on it, so I don't see why someone who wanted to couldn't help me out with that part of it.

If you mean the donations part for this server-thingie idea, oh. :P  That's not me and the money I've received is strictly for booty and not for the server.  If I have to start emailing booty, then so be it.  I've been a filesharer long before this site existed, and if this site folds tomorrow, I'll still be one.

I've said before, I don't much care if Delphy does or doesn't allow links to this site on his.  I'll respect that.  People know me anyway, and I get PM's there all the time asking for the link :P

That's exactly what I was thinking...

Thing is, I can see a number of reasons why Delphy wouldn't want links to here, and I don't see it as a case of him being against us, as such. We're not hard to find, if you want to, and I'd say there has been a watershed crossed with people's opinions on paysites anyway. And really, that's what matters, right? Whatever the means, that's what we're all here for at the end of the day. It'd be nice if Delphy did allow links to PMBD, but I don't reckon the issue should be pressed too much, I just think it's excellent that people have been allowed to engage their brains on the whole paysites thing, whatever the medium. Something about there being more than one way to skin a cat, or something, springs to mind.

Well I really don't know what caused delphy to get so pissy there.

The fact is PMBD is THE reason that the sims community is now starting to talk about free vs paysites OPENLY. I've talked with many friends in private for years but we've always been afraid to be ostracized from the community or banned by sites to talk about our feelings about it openly.

Because of PMBD, the community itself is getting braver and refusing to allow the paysite overlords to continue to scare people into keeping quiet. And if MTS2 is doing its part to keep this on the down low, that's wrong too. Hey, you can do whatever you want. But we can also come here and criticize. That's the way it works.

I don't really care about sigs and such. But its really hard to educate a community when you don't have access to educate at places where the community congregates.

That is where PM's come in handy.  Infiltrate the enemy, incognito, of course.  Target the new users.  Before they have had chance to be brainwashed.

Well yeah, PMs would be good. However, in the case of Delphy, he has, and/or his minions have, in the past taken little notice of privacy and deleted private messages at will. So how can one trust PMing the info on MTS2?



No one is 'telling you what to do' Delphy. That's pretty extreme to say that. We have reiterated a number of times that it was very good of you to post the 'mission message'. That doesn't mean we agree with or have to agree with everything you say and do from here on out.

Whether you like it or not, you have a double standard going with the links to paysites allowed but not to here. Period. Like it or not. We got it: you think that that action is 'OK'. We don't.

So, one extremist to the next: It's really simple. Don't click the link to this page if you don't like us.

If it's any consolation.  I believe that Discordkitty mentioned that mods have no ability to edit PMs (at S2C)

However I PMd someone the address the other day, and when they replied back, the address had been astericked out like this:

http://******************.org/booty

I don't think anyone edited it, but it may have been caught by a filter.

I have started using hXXp instead, and explain what needs doing, I think it works that way, cos the filters don't recognise live links.

I have sent PMs and then later PMed the receiver on another forum about it and they never got it. It happens witho or without Delphy's knowledge. Considering what happened, or so the tale goes, to JM, I have to think Delphy knows fully.

I would highly doubt that anyone is reading and then deleting your PM's.  I would, however, believe they have a filter.

Well, my PM said nothing about any 'banned' subject matter, had no cuss words (shocking for me I know!) was mainly benign. It did mention that the PM might not ever get to the person....what filter would have blocked that?

Well, it'll block out the link if you linked it there, for starters.  Just like the person above you wrote, that's exactly what'll happen.  But it won't block the entire PM.  If they didn't get your first PM, and they did get your second, then most likely it was an error on some part, either yours or theirs.

But, I have to ask, why are you bitching about this here?  If there is a problem with the site malfunctioning over there or whatever the case may be, why not bring it up there?  What good does it do to bitch here?

But then again, you have a history of going off at stupid shit, so I'm not surprised. (Renatus)

I'm not bitching. But now I am confused  :shock: The thread was talking about PMs and saying PMs aren't private. You said PMs may have been filtered, not deleted. I am saying 'what was mine filtered on that caused it to not even get there'. No bitching just trying to ascertain how it could have been filtered and not deleted. The first message was on MTS2, no links in it, didn't get there. So probably deleted by a moderator or Delphy. The second message was on a a different site.  ?

Bleh now you have me confused.

I sent a message to Pescado on MTS2 that he says he never got either.  Site error?  My error?  Who the hell knows, I'm not stressed about it.  

Specific links/words are filtered in the PM's on S2C (and prolly MTS2, I dunno), there's no question.  But it shouldn't cause the entire PM to fail.

Before filesharing required either multiple friends each buying separate subscriptions, or complicated systems. SFV has been around for years, but how many people know about it even now?
This site sticks everything up on a simple directory.
It's quite different, and more importantly, PUBLIC. It's already had a long-term impact by stirring the pot, and laying the groundwork.


Except you aren't educating people, you're just telling them a story they'd like to believe. I'm not slamming that- it works, and there's validity there. But don't pretend that's "education."
The truth is that selling .package files is illegal, and many paysites don't even pretend they aren't stores. It's an inconvenient truth, and "we should all share because it's nice!" does have broader appeal- but don't attribute a higher moral ground to spin.

This site is an alternative, even if you don't like it.


That is the carrot. Everyone needs carrots. They're good for your eyes.

This is the stick- if a site, new or formerly free, decides to make money off files without paying EA for the permissions, their pay content goes up on this site.

In an ideal world, everyone would respond to the carrot, and paysites would evaporate.
This is not an ideal world.
Many paysites would stay up even if EA brought the hammer down. The only way to get to those people is to prevent them from profiting off of what doesn't belong to them.
The community's words can be ignored- these actions cannot be.


Frankly, I don't think you realize that almost everyone here has a different, diverging opinion, and only really agree that this site should exist.

Yes, some people think you're an idiot, but at the very same time, some think you're right. And all shades in between.
Lumping us all together as a raving hive-mind doesn't do your point any credit.

You are entitled to think that two wrongs don't make a right.
We are entitled to consider this justice rather than a "wrong."
I agree to disagree on this point.


You don't? Except for saying that this site is ultimately worthless and just for "shock" value. Really.

We use your site too, bub. That means we're part of "your" community, and that includes the right to complain when we see something we don't like.
You aren't obligated to listen, but you should be able to give an answer other than "you guys are mean, so your point is invalid."

The ruling is inconsistent.
You were called on it, so deal.

Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but if the only thing you have is rights, the only place you're going is in circles.

In addition, there have been many many reasons stated why paysites are wrong, but I have yet to read any viable, or even any at all!, arguments why the sharing of package files is wrong. 'It goes against creators TOS' simply isn't good enough in view of the fact the creators have been proven to have lied, and cheated, about bandwidth and hard work and monies spent making CC etc.

And to put it in the context of creators' rights, as long as I'm getting credited, I don't really mind people distributing things I've made.

Someone once told me how they printed out one of my stories and everyone in his school, practically had read it.  (I guess it got really boring in England around 1999.)  Should I be upset that the other people who borrowed his print-outs didn't get it from me?  That they might not have known that I wrote it, or, at the least, had no idea how to contact me?

Pshh...people forget who published authors are all the time.  I'm more happy that lots of people thought my stuff worth reading.  That's how I'd feel if lots of people wanted custom content I made.  Though right now it's limited to a bunch of t-shirts I copied off of T-Shirt Hell, so that's doubtful!

So anyone who's really sharing for the community spirit shouldn't mind filesharing.

Well, with the whole PM thing...if it is important or confidential, why would you be sending it via private message on a site where it is even possible for someone else to see it or delete it? :)

It wasn't important or confidential.  If it was, I wouldn't have sent it in PM at all, I would have cornered him in my very own chat room. :P

Ok this is just a thought, I mean it would be great if we could be linked from MTS2 and S2C, but isn't that fact that we aren't to, make it MORE enticing to people to find out just what the heck is going on?  I mean the forbidden is ALWAYS more attractive than what's available for all :P  All least that's my experience ;)

And yeah I think the whole allowing paysites to be available to be linked is a bit hypocritical, but *shrugs* it's Delphy's site, he can do whatever he wants.  And we gotta respect that, and he is actually making steps too, which is really great, and since it IS the biggest site, people will take notice.

Just an add, I too love the fact that their isn't any censorship here, but some stuff I definately wouldn't want kids seeing (openlegs jack thread  :shock:)  although nowadays, kids know more than I do.

Tangentially, this reminded me of a girl I knew in college who was always talking about how she was going to be an Author.
Because of this (???) she was mortally offended by the fact that libraries stocked fiction.

She thought it was criminal that the library allowed people to steal money out of Author's pockets by letting so many people read books for free.

This is the person I think of every time I see "don't share my stuff!!"

Not all kids, thank goodness!  Man, I am so glad I actually got to be a kid and not had to worry if I was giving head correctly at 13-yrs-old.  Blech.

Anyway, I do think it would be hard for S2C to allow links to this site as it is definitely not PG-13.  



Not to pick on anyone because I've seen a couple post this sort of thing.

I realize this is an extreme analogy however, one can be anti-abortion without being pro blow up clinics.  One can be anti-paysite without being pro-filesharing, and that really is okay.  It isn't hypocritical to be anti-paysite and not pro-filesharing.  It's a personal decision like so many other things.

I really don't have a lot of love for S2C because Lyric and Pooja screwed it up so badly, but still, the site in general can't be blamed for not allowing linkage to here for several reasons.

To try to put a more positive spin on this thread, I am really pleased that between us all - this site, Delphy's sites, and now the federation we really are having an effect.  Oh and InSim have made it clear on their site that they are pro-free content, and that should help shape people's attitudes as it's another big site.

Helaene and Saphire Sims have gone free, and XMSims has expressed an intention to gradually do so and is not adding any more donation content.  There's another one I have forgotten dammit.

There is room for a multi-pronged approach, of which all the above are a part and so can anyone be if they keep reiterating either an anti-pay or a pro-free statement, depending on whether they are glass half full or glass half empty types lol

I take it she never became an author, on account of being a complete MORON, because how many real authors do you hear of objecting to libraries?

I didn't post that on your forum, and I have been pretty active in the why hate paysites, with not one ounce of your necessary censorship needed because I have abided by your rules. But if you come here, where Pescado pretty much lets me speak my mind - then I can abide by his rules, and you either lump it, or leave, just as we have to do on your site.

I put forward my opinion on someone else's site - I didn't PM you, or even ask you to check it out. I just said what I think within the rules of this forum, just as I did on yours.  

I didn't order, or dictate, or demand, but put forth an argument, and I didn't even address you personally.  You might own MTS2, but you don't own here. Being a member of this site doesn't mean that you get to dictate to me either.

And I think it's pretty damn stupid to have a policy about free things, when people upload to MTS2 with "want to see more of my stuff - come to openhousejack/exnem/crapperata" - it kinda makes you look like a paper tyrant - one who will say "oh paysites are bad" while promoting them on the featured or front page of your site, telling people that if they want more featured content like this, just click on the link.

*giggle*  You guys are funny.  Like we don't have anything better to do than delete your PMs.   :roll:



I'd rather people get my work from me.  It's freely available, always will be freely available (in fact, you can still find my old Creatures 1 and 2 work if you go looking - I REALLY like to make sure my modding work stays around even if the game is obsolete), and if there -was- an extended MTS2 downtime I'd work on putting my stuff up on my own site so people could still get it.  

I do not have to pay a dime for bandwidth, ever - not only because my work is hosted on MTS2 but also because my own site's hosting and domain is 100% free with unlimited bandwidth.  I put my uploads on MTS2 because they've visible and because it's easier than trying to maintain them at my own site.  

Perhaps not the most common setup with the free site and stuff (my dad runs a small hosting biz so he's got me covered) but anyone could find free or extremely affordable hosting if they did some poking around.

I've got a pretty darn open policy - use pretty much anything of mine but my mesh parts as long as you give credit and don't pretend you made it yourself.  Upload with lots or sims with credit, don't upload just to upload as it's one hell of a lot easier just to link to me.

I don't think I'd mind someone sending their buddy a couple of my things privately over MSN or email or whatever, just cos it's easier, but I would definitely take issue with someone uploading a major chunk of my work somewhere else....  Mainly because it's available from me for free, often more updated or with important info, and it's just entirely pointless.  Doesn't save me anything, and folks could get it from me with no hassle.

Yes, I like comments and thanks, but it's more about being able to maintain even a small amount of control over something that I've made, when there's absolutely no reason for anyone to try to take that away from me.  I have not and never will withhold content behind a pay curtain, so I feel there's no reason to fileshare what's given freely.

While I don't necessarily condone open filesharing of pay works on a website like is done here...  Folks would get the work from the creators if they could and didn't have to pay for it, which I'm realizing is an important point when paysite creators yell about redistribution.

The most important fact should be that many people, with many different points of view on the matter, agree on the very basilar facts: yes to free files, no to payfiles.

Anyone has his/her personal reasons, and own personal ways of action: pretending to uniform all them to a unique behavior, whatever it is, penalizes the purpose of the mission in the long run. You know, if anybody may say: "oh, but they're only the usual old bunch of pirates, let's talk about something more interesting, please.", then it's a failure of the mission.

The fact that many people, and even more, those most recognized by the community as reliable and respected, agree on the core issue is the most important fact. It's almost as the testimonial importance in advertisement. If PMBD would be made by me - for example - instead of Pescado, would have had the same impact and importance? I bet not. It's normal.

When SFV started I suppose the community wasn't "ready" to understand at full the complex issue. This doesn't means that PMBD is better than SFV, or vice versa, but simply they have acted in different moments, with different background to work on.

If you guys are so worried about your underground PM information, just ask for the person's email.


God, I hope not. All I remember is that it was some kind of horrible "Great American Novel" thing (with male prostitutes! I remember that part!) and she was convinced it was going to make her rich.

I die a little inside, thinking that there's someone out there that hates the library because it lets people read books.


All of which is perfectly reasonable, and I do understand why other creators might feel that way, even if I personally don't.
I would/do give my respect to your ToS. Except for the part about fat sims. 8)


Good lord, it's been forever since I thought about those. Bet I can't get it to work anymore.


I wasn't trying to slight SFV. Their policies are geared toward protecting the users from vindictive paysite owners. One of those protections is keeping the site semi-private, another is the layers of rules.
SFV isn't intended for anything but sharing files quietly among themselves, and that's why it hasn't "made a difference."

HP, I think it just comes down to what's more important.  Exposure vs. control.  I've got fiction uploaded freaking EVERYWHERE, so someone putting up their own fic archive isn't going to annoy me, unless they're pretending they're me.

To me, it's more important that people get use out of what I create than having absolute control over it.  You say you don't mind people uploading things as part of houses, etc.

What if someone decided some of your CC was part of their "essential" downloads, and they collected their essential downloads on a site to help out people who didn't have the time or ability to search through MTS2?  That would be a reason to upload it, you have full credit, and they're definitely paying you a compliment.  As to why they would host it themselves, they think it's so important that they want to make sure their essential files are available.  No hissy fits, no server failure, no links dying, etc.

From what I've seen, nearly everything on the internet can randomly disappear, so extra insurance that what you love doesn't is a valid reason to share things on your own.

And libraries are horrible.  Most of them also let you listen to CDs and watch movies FOR FREE.

SFV wasn't/isn't trying to make a difference.  But they've been around since TS1 days and they've seen their fair share of bullshit melodrama from paysite owners attacking them.  Which is probably a big reason why none of them are very active here - they've been there, done that.

I wish you all would stop seeing this site as a way to destroy paysites.  It's not.  It's a way to make people talk about how bad they are.  Sites are not going to stop creating because of filesharing, SFV has been through that before and it doesn't work.

Paysites will only slow down/cease to exist when everyone stops paying them.  One of the only things we're really accomplishing at the end of the day here is paying less and getting the content to more people for free.

Edit:  And unless HP's post is directed to someone in particular, and my eyes glazed over that person's post, I don't get what filesharing of free files has to do with this?  We don't share freely available files...

Replying to me, as I don't understand why filesharing is offensive.  And someone always goes "creators' rights!"  And I always go "why share it at all if you don't want lots of people to have it?"

But...but...CREATORS' RIGHTS!

...

I don't know, I will never understand it.  I think it's because I even make stuff where I don't care if I get credit.

Quinctia, I think doing something like that it'd make more sense to just link to people so folks could go get their other things, and I don't have a problem with lot and house uploads because people are using what I've created as part of their own creation - not just sharing it because it's cool stuffs, since they can always get it from me.  I've got my site if MTS2 is down, and that's there as long as I feel like leaving it there.  And not being the take my ball and go home type, that'll probably be till I'm dead at least.

Anyway, there are -very- few things that I would have serious issue with or say no to if someone came to me and just asked me first.  I'm easy to contact, and as long as they ask and are cool about it, willing to give me a little link...  I'll generally give special permission for just about anything to anyone with a reputation for not being a douche.

I want lots of people to have my stuff, I'd just like them to get it from me, since I'm giving it out freely and may have info on it or updates for them.  A couple thanks or comments now and then from people who enjoy my work is kinda nice too.

Edit: BlueSoup, with that long, um, thingie, I was referring to Quinctia's post here: http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?p=14653#14653

It was sort of a long and roundabout, rambling point that basically came down to the fact that people wouldn't be redistributing the files (at least not much outside of the Exchange, etc.) if they were free, and sort of a tangential side thing.  I think I'm done now though.  :D

Ahh ok.  I don't agree with filesharing of freely available files at all, unless it's something included in a lot or Sim package.  And I don't think that should have restrictions either.  

Think about it - would you ever suggest to anyone that they download a hack included in your lot file?  No, you'd direct them straight to the source so they got all the information and correct version, etc.  If content is freely available, there's no reason to redistribute it.

Best. Quote. Ever.

Agreed.  *writes it down*

That is so funny - I'm going to use that somewhere.  As long as you don't get offended.

 :lol: That is funny.

It's also not true. The girl was seriously misinformed -- people can read from libraries for free, but the libraries pay licensing fees to be libraries, usually to a copyright council or some such organisation, who then uses those fees to pay the publishers of those books for their use. The publishers than add a proportionate amount to their author royalties, usually on an annual basis.



Hoookay, now I just snorted coffee out my nose. Writing as a way to make you rich. Gods, oh, gods, my great aunt Laura, don't I just wish. It's people like that who make editors tired. It's people like this who submit crappy first drafts written in crayon with a cover letter that states, "Plz read mi books. My moms just loves it and my frends do too."



No objections here.  :D

And now that I've read the rest of the thread...

Delphy (and others), I believe someone can actually be anti-filesharing and still pro the booty.

I've downloaded stuff from the booty, and I am avidly not pro-filesharing. Sounds like a contradiction, I suppose.

Not really, if you think of it in legal & logical terms.

Everyone (including Paysites) made an agreement when they installed the game to make any custom content free, for the benefit of the community. Paysites aren't making the content free to the community.

Now, EA gave everyone who bought and paid for the game the right to the content created using their code. EA-given user rights over-rules paysite "tos", and you are not denying anyone their legal monetary dues by sharing the booty files, as the legal right is owned by EA and they have already given people redactive permission to access any and all of those files. In fact, as the files were bought from those sites in the first place, they've actually still made money they weren't entitled to.

OTOH, I would unequivocably not advocate hacked programmes, warez, music, etc. (except under "fair use", by which I don't mean copying stuff and reselling it), because the sharers of those files have no right to share them, and they are denying the legal rights of the legal owners of that IP to make their income as they see fit from their own property.

I hope that makes sense.

Sure? I wasn't the only one blessed by her, so I don't see why you can't...use it somewhere. :)

I should also point out, she was against used bookstores for the same reasons. That's just not as insane as her library hate. :roll:


Believe me, I (and several other people) tried to explain this.
Add in that libraries are funded via taxation, so those people reading "for free" were actually paying a rental fee.
Her counter-argument (after sulking) was that these deals were made with the publisher, not the author (usually true) and the fee is not identical to the money the author would get for selling books to all those readers. (...)

There was never a way to get around her idea that no one should be able to read her deathless prose unless she got every penny per page.

But hey, I sincerely hope that if she did write that book, she found a way to keep it out of the library...

Now I'm eating carpet... cos, of course, publishers, like, don't sign contracts with authors or nuthin' covering these things... and agents do know what to look for...

But then, she's probably anti-agent, too, because agents get a full 15% of the approx $1.19 or so per book sold that authors receive for all of the work they do trying to sell the stuff in the first place.  :roll:

Thankyou LesserOr. Had my belly laugh for the day. 'Tis good medicine. :D

Thank you, beth... you've expressed my own opinion much better than I ever could have.  I don't consider myself a "filesharer" in more than the most literal terms (yes, :roll: I *share* *files*) because I don't condone the illegal distribution of music, movies, software, etc.  And because I know one of you will ask: yes, I have a legal version of PS.  My father had a license for an older version through his former employer and paid for the upgrade to CS.

Of course I'm not gonna report anyone to the Adobe police or whatever, or look down on someone for using pirated software, but I personally would rather just pay the money.

filesharing, ea sims game CC i support it should be all free, but thats different than bootlegging the game itself, or dling music, videos etc, which all illegal. The filesharing we are doing here is legal. We are only considered illegal by the paysites who got it backwards. They are in the wrong not we.

 :D

I'm not opposed to file-sharing in any shape or form. It's more fun that way. Sharing is caring afterall.  :wink:

Wrong. (Assuming rights are 90 degrees.) Squares or rectangles would be the only possibility. :wink:  

"File Sharing" seems to mean different things to different people.
Napster was "File Sharing". CC from the Sims 2 is not in the category of a product with "Intellectual Rights". I have no issue whatever with sharing game content, not now, not in the past.  The giving of proper credit is a courtesy that is very impolite to omit, but not much more than just rude boorishness if not included.  It is not the end of the world for a "Creator".
If I include uncredited CC in an upload, it because of a typo, not paying attention, bad hair day, etc., not intent to steal.
As said before, if your stuff is so precious you cannot lose control of it, DON'T UPLOAD IT WHERE THE PUBLIC CAN DOWNLOAD IT!

Lemmie in a nutshell, my words what your saying :) Keep it to yourself, once its out on the internet it takes on a life of its own, it now is no longer exclusively yours. So if you love it dont share your creation if you dont want others to have it. 8)

Well she suffered for her art, you know.
And self-publishing houses have to get clients from somewhere. :P

:lol:  

Darnit. I am going to have to remember to swallow my drinks before I open your posts.

Wrong again. You're assuming travel in straight lines where none was stated. Please stop trying to ruin perfectly good jokes with poor attempts at looking smart. It's very trying.

Ah - don't you just love the differently sane?

I liked that post at MTS 2, it makes me think that things are looking up for scuttling the pay sites and all. Plus, it says that they are going to stay free and it mentioned people who did lots of good stuff. If that seems simplistic, sorry, my coffee buzz has worn off and I'm about to hit the bed...