PMBD

just in case some moderator decides it needs deletion. :)

The thread is currently here, if anyone's interested:
http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/messages.php?&openItemID=item.24,root.1,item.43,item.61,item.104,item.127&threadID=3c59233ac5acfdadea46f92efe01c7e8&directoryID=24&startRow=1

Content:

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I am wondering why EA games and its Sims2 Community list  sites that make people pay for custom on their fan Listing, when such paysites are in clear contravention to the electronic license agreement signed by every single person who installs the game, and also in contravention to the TO listed in the Fansite agreement, here:

http://thesims2.ea.com/community/approval_fansitekit.php

thus (emphasis mine):



and, at the bottom of the same page,



Yet, the fansite listing includes the following sites on the front page alone where you can either only buy custom content (the use of the word "donation" notwithstanding) or where a portion of the content is only available by paying for it (listed as "subscription", and some listed as "free").

The Sims Resource
7 Deadly Sims (listed as free, but a Sims 1 site - the linked sims2 site is 8th Deadly sims and it is a subscription site).
Glamour Sims
Loving Touch Designs
Glam Sim
Artistic Habitats (one of the Sims Host sites, see Sims Republic list below)
Emerald Sims Estates
Eclectic Sims
Simmetrical (listed as a free site but who has a portion of the site as pay only downloads)
Reflex sims (listed as free but also a part paysite)
Simslice (listed as free but in fact all sims 2 downloads are available by a monthly subscription only)
Aussie Topenders (listed as free but with a "donation" -- "I mean, pay or you won't get this mesh" area)
BlueSims (listed as free but with a high proportion of pay content).
The Sims Republic (listed as a free site but you actually need a paid subscription with their Webhost, SimsHost.com, to download content. Also listed as a sub site)
Sims Connection (listed as free but with pay content)
Sapphire Sims (listed as free but with some pay download, at least one which is in contravention of copyright as it incorporates art by Jonathan Bowser into a mesh)
Sims 2 studio (listed as free but with a high proportion of pay content)
Sims 2 Creations (listed as free but with pay content)
The Real Sim
Tigersim Collections (not even a site, just a bunch of ad links designed for traffic revenue)
Vitasims (listed twice, once as sub, once as free. A subscription site)
Around the Sims 2 (listed as free but with "donation" content. Oh, and listed twice)
Tojah and Camilla's Sims 2
Mango Sims 2 (listed as free but with a large donations section)
Charmed Sims
Hans Christian Adersim (A SimsHost site -- and he is using trademarked Disney images to make content then charging for it)
Simply Similicious
DebbySim Decor
Wallsims (listed as free but actually part pay)

And that doesn't even start on the "forum" pages.

This is not an attack on those site owners, who may not be aware that what they are doing is a violation of the EA EULA for both the game itself and fansites. I am not saying these site owners intend to act against these terms, or that some of the sites don't offer files of extremely good quality, or that they don't work very hard to provide good custom content. But that is a moot point. Many of these sites also take Maxis meshes and use trade marked images (such as those from Disney, original non-public license art sites and others) to make their content, then charge for them. Fair enough if they were using someone else's intellectual property and offering the result for free, but it is commercial sites I am talking about.

Many are hosted on free webhosts, so they can't talk about needing donations to cover bandwidth costs, or even guarantee that the content people are paying for will be available to download once their free bandwidth is exceeded.

I am, however, wondering why, even if EA Games doesn't wish to quantify their rights re Sims 2 package files, there is not a warning on the page telling simmers that paysites are, in fact, a violation of these terms. Not saying anything is a tacit approval of these sites, some of which offer nothing more than recolours of Maxis meshes, and less informed sims 2 players may think that paying for these files is the "done thing".

For the record (so people don't misunderstand me), I do donate money to free, good sites like modthesims2 and insimenator.net

These, and other good sites such as parsimionoius.org don't charge for files in breach of the EA EULA, but do ask for donations (in the true meaning of the word) and are upfront about where those donations go, whether for bandwidth or "cake money" as parsimonious likes to say *smile*. So I am not some custom content whore who's just crying "whaaaa! I want my content for nothing!" I make my own and there is free stuff around that is much, much better than on some paysites.

I am just wondering, as an EA customer concerned about many who aren't overly active in the community and may not understand the ramifications of these sites, why EA tolerates sites that mislead the community in this way, by having some believe that this is appropriate.

I wonder if the Sims 2 community realise that this is unique in the gaming community: no other games community that I am aware of (eg Baldur's Gate, NWN, etc) makes people pay for custom content not created by the actual designer and manufacturer of the game, no matter how much time and effort is put into such content. The reason? The content makers do not actually own the final product. The Sims 2 is doubly unique in that some (I emphasise, some) custom content makers do not seem to understand this.

And, uh, what happened to your "no exceptions" policy?

Thanks for listening. :-)
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Good, now if more people go to the thread and ask EA for an official statement on this issue, someone may hear.

I replied in that thread, also asking them for an official statement (I'm mfirestorm45 there).

The thread will probably be deleted soon though.... *le sigh*

Edited for stupid mistake... I need to go sleep off all the champagne I drank  :(

LOL I know was reading your response it was good. PLEASE if anyone is reading this go and demand EA answer us officially at the link. Tell all the forums concerned fans to go there and ask to. They wont dare delete if lots of simmers post.

Happy New Year, EA forum mods.  :P
It'll probably get taken down for "bashing" or something equally asinine, but hopefully it'll last until morning.

Do they allow the word "whore", though? If you can edit, you probably ought to- best not to give them an easy excuse.

Will do.

A thought, Bluesoup. S2C will probably allow a link to the EA community post. Let's get those people talking there, too.

If nothing else, if EA aren't aware of SimsHost, they will be.

Well somone added two links to their current discussion at scs.  :twisted:

Let's make lots and lots of noise. Get the thread listed on the front page. :)

That's odd, the thread is still on the EA site...   Are we wearing them down?

I don't know. Spoke too soon? I just tried to add a post and the BBS is "currently disabled, possibly due to maintenance or configuration changes. Please check back shortly."

Just in case, this is what I wanted to add, to my explanation to Su:

"I forgot to add that actually EA hasn't harmed their case in any way via inactivity. It's covered under this clause:



Even if nothing else was there, the "all rights reserved" covers it."

I'll copy and paste later if I can. *sigh*

Well late Sunday night/early Monday morning is a normal time for "site maintenance" as I found out as a very night owl/procrastinaty college student. :D

well they closed us down fora few hours...drat :x

Good to know site maintenance not killing the topic yet..

Happy New Year everyone...4 hours into 2007 :)

Ah. See, it's late Monday evening here.

I'm... I think... 17 hours ahead of NYC. GMT +10, w/o summer time, anyways.

January 1? Old news. ;)

(Happy new year).

Thats right your downunder Beth, you are always ahead of us :), we are always trying to play catch up with you :).

Ok Im asking a couple toughies over here on Shodan topic:
http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?p=12342#12342

Bethgael, making "lots and lots of noise" and rabble rousing is not the best way to get a thread left up.   We don't want the anti-paysite cause always associated with threads that have to close because they become like flame wars.   Sometimes the quiet considered threads with just a couple of posts remain and nibble away.

We need to adapt the tactic to the parameters of the site management.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Rabble rousing isn't really my style. :)

I simply meant to keep the thread (and others like it) at the forefront of EA's consciousness.

I dont think we were rabble rousing, but asking good questions and all.  I dont do rabble rousing good either.

I know, I was just thinking some people might interpret your invitation to join in as a general freeforall, is what I was afraid of.

well they arent joining us in the groves yet :twisted:

'In droves'. The phrase is 'in droves'.

Renatus lol please forgive me, wrote that when my brain was in a fog...been up all night again.

Well, I thought "in the groves" was quite appropriate. After all, isn't that where pirates bury their treasure?  :D

both work,
WE NEED PIRATES TO GO IN DROVES TO THE GROVES
groves(ea) lol

seriously, how do we find out who the corporation is behind TSR...Who really is TSR. I dont believe the EA thing at all they would have to put in their ceorporate info. Unless we go go over EAS head and look at who owns them. BRB, it may be in there.

No problem! I write for a living so making corrections to text is an automatic reaction with me.  :wink:

Alright I have traced TSR through a news clip at Mall of the sIMs to this:

This afternoon, Steve Bonham,(The Sims Resource), posted more concerns regarding TSR's huge bandwidth consumption as well as its exponential increase in traffic. TSR is owned by the MGON Network and has seen the same drops in advertising revenue that's effecting the entire online ad industry.
http://www.mallofthesims.com/newsproarchives/arc3-2001.html

OK then I see something that this collapses and it has many sites. Can someone fill in the missing pieces, who bought up all theses sites or did they branch out on own?

People try to expand too far or too fast, or to diversify too much.  It's the most common cause of a business going bust.

There was no reason for TSR to start giving out "mini sites".  The whole point of submitting to an existing group site is that it saves you having to run your own site.   Once you want your own site, mini or otherwise, it's time to move to your - wait for it - own site!

TSR is trying to be too many things and change too much.  I think they should do a rapid rethink and go back to how it was including treating all the content the same.  Subbers get instant access, Freebers wait for rotation.  It was just about acceptable that way as a voluntary donation site.

The "huge bandwidth consumption" argument is largely bullshit. I mean, you don't see *US* complaining about huge bandwidth consumption. No, last month we went through nearly 4 TB. No sweat.

That was an old post from 2001, Pescado. I still am looking to see who took over TSR after the collapse of MCON. Do you know Pescado?

I'm kind of unclear about what sort of information you're looking for Soup Parrot - but if you tell me, I'll be happy to look.

Ok, I have seen this forever in various sites, people thinking TSR is owned by EA. EA I checked doesnt own them. I researched by TSR staff and found this reference MCon that went bust. OK, after MCON did TSR just start by itself ordid someone else buy MCON and all its game sites out. I keep hearing references to Thomas, what is known about this guy.

I thought they were owned by ibibi. You really need to be fluent in Swedish, or something scandinavian, to read what google throws at you. There are various posts by Johan and Per (@ibibi.com) that show up but not much in English. There used to be more in English, even some mention of them at TSR, but it has all been taken down in the last few months.
whois gives Per as contact for ibibi.com

Hmm... I smells a conspiracy, I do....

Actually,

Thomas O. Isacsson
OddJob Media ab

turns up a lot more information - these are the people involved with it:

Jan Isacsson, Art Director/Projektledare (jan@oddjob.se)
Johan Isacsson, Programmering (johan@oddjob.se)
Thomas Isacsson, Art Director/HTML/CSS (thomas@oddjob.se)
Mikael Sundberg, Programmering (micke@oddjob.se)
Mattias Sundberg, Programmering (mattias@oddjob.se)
Eva Åström, Ekonomi

Might be fruitful to search for their names.

I do not know the true story of TSR but the way it seems to me is that Steve started the site from his love of the game (I don't know when subscriptions started so he may have been after the money all along) and when it got too big for him he brought in a backer (Thomas and his money-grabbing posse). They spent a while in the background, but Thomas especially has recently become dumber/greedier and there have made many changes to the site. In my experience Thomas was rarely seen posting and he tended to stick to admin issues. Getting caught up in the debates has made him lose face with a lot of members, he has been heavy handed at deleting posts that suggest TSR might not be the perfect world he wants to market it as and has removed information about himself as he has made himself a target and he doesn't like it.
I remember reading posts about him and his gang (Jan, Johan, Per etc...) having a dubious past, (buying sites, milking them to death and dumping the mangled remains). It may have been mis-inference but the only sources I can point you to are here and MATY (yes it's a big stick and not very accurate).
Please note that this post is just my views and may all be based on misreading hearsay.
exnem sims (http://paysites.mustbedestroyed.org/booty/exnem/)
Edited because I had a brain spasm over heresy and hearsay and made up a new word.

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Isacsson_Thomas_13514186.aspx

According to this site here (click on the news links) Thomas owned Mgon, and when it went under he bought it with oddjob media I presume.

Looks like their whole life is muscling in on gaming communities to make money out of them.   I suppose Maxis found it mutually convenient at one time, to have someone provide the appearance of a pre-thriving Sims community, as it makes the game more attractive to potential buyers.

Maybe it's time they all came clean instead of saying "we're keeping an eye on them"

getting disapproval over at EA:

When TSR will go all free I will be convinced that EA disapproves of paysites. Until then, I'll believe that they approve of them, especially given all the free advertising and sustained promotion they give to this site. This site has never been free given that almost all the free stuff they so generously offer have pay meshes. Yet there isn't any EA promotion that does not include TSR. TSR makes a lot more money than all the other pay sites combined and it seems EA is not botherd about this. It does not even have the disclaimer that fan sites are supposed to have. If they have it, they must have put it on a very well hidden page. Or they have an agreement with EA. Debating the EULA on this forum is useless as long as EA has no intention of enforcing it. Until EA will actually take a non equivocal stand on this issue , I think people who address hateful messages towards paysites on account of the said EULA should keep in mind that EA is on very good terms with TSR, the largest pay site ever. Moreover, if EA and TSR do have an agreement covering selling of custom content, I think this whole anti- paysite movement is just a good laugh.
They the above must be a paysite lover.
Well I also found their main corporation TSR, thankyou, which I cant read lol
http://www.oddjob.se/index.php

Kind of proves it's a commercial venture not a personal fansite, though dinnit?

Well if you read on yes, you see they have financial backers and all in this new venture too. I'd love to see all Peggy's company real data.

Looks like we have a bunch of cowards out there, they dont want to join our thread there.

[Lurker slips foot in the pool] I had to add a reply over at the Official site under the link Beth provided. I think that we just need more people to ask why in a simple easy mannor. Not really put up opinions on them just ask EA for theirs. So that's why I added in my two cents. Thought I'd let you all know here too since this is where I 'heard' about it! [/Lurker takes foot out of the pool]
Edited cause I couldn't type correctly

Thankyou Chami for joining us, the more that post over there the less likely EA can ignore the issue. And what an education everyones getting over there to :)

More people need to go there begging them. We have to build it up like a snoball rolling down a mountain thats bigger and bigger, then they cant ignore us, have to address this issue. it needs to be a hot forum on the BBS.
thread readers:
Over 1200 views of this thread, why cant 500 people who viewed this post go over there to EA. We'd get quick results too :twisted:  There is power in numbers, cmon stop lurking out there, your here there is a rebel in you and you can join us in this inquirey!  :twisted:
http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/messages.php?&openItemID=&threadID=3c59233ac5acfdadea46f92efe01c7e8&directoryID=24&startRow=1

The thread is still there.

Why does the fucking BBS go down each day precisely when I click Save on a message I have just written?   And why unlike more sites does Back not take you back to your editing screen so you can copy it?

isnt that aggravating, did that to me last nigght Teadrinker, your not alone. At least they haven't made the thread disappear. They must of been off Today cause of Ford's funeral. Wait till morning!

isnt that aggravating, did that to me last nigght Teadrinker, your not alone. At least they haven't made the thread disappear. They must of been off Today cause of Ford's funeral. Wait till morning!

Update, the thread on the BBS has been locked by MaxoidMel.  Not sure what to make of the closing statement.

I take it as more heads burried in the sand.

I take it as not actually having read the entire thread. It wasn't supposed to be discussing the illegality of paysites but why EA allows paysites in violation of their Terms stated on the site while advertising said sites -- that are ripping off simmers.

I actually said that in the very last post I made on the thread, but it seems that post was made at the same time as the thread was being locked, so even though it looked to me like it went through it's not there now.

OK, I'm not really sure why it's considered "off topic" either (call me stupid. No, please ;) :)), as the most common question on the BBS at the moment re custom content is "where do I find it", but that's OK. Maybe it needed to go in "General Discussion" instead. The important thing is that it wasn't deleted. I suggest people keep linking to it (and the discussion at S2R) anyway so new simmers can at least find the thread at some point. :)

It means that they are not going to address the issue any time soon.

Hi everyone Im going to post this before my Internet connection wigs out again this is what he wrote. Who wrote Nazi

A message has been posted to a thread you subscribed to.
   
   BBS:      The Sims 2 Forum (BBS)
   From:      MaxoidMel
   Subject:   Re: Question for EA re fan custom content sites listings
   
   I am locking the thread.

We do not appreciate name-calling or speculation of how fan sites are run or featured. Calling
anyone words like "nazi" also breaks our BBS Rules and this entire thread is off-topic.

I realize this is an ongoing topic of interest but please let our legal department worry about
whatever avenues EA does or does not choose to pursue - it is not a debate we are hosting or
commenting on at this time.

Thanks.

notice they are calling fansites paysites here. Lets go run a paysite folks :evil:  :evil:

Beth notice though lets go back in mass even if the lock us and ask oes that mean fansites that are paysites are legal. So we can throw their EULA out the water?

WE have a weapon we vcan use though, BOYCOTT

What the heck?!  "jmtsimmom" said, "He [Thomas] runs his forums like a nazi, expunging any contrary views, banning members on a whim."  That's the only place in the thread where the word "nazi" appears.  And that's supposed to be name-calling?  And no "speculation of how fan sites are run or featured" allowed!  OMG THREAD LOCKED!!!

Such B.S.  Gimme a break.

Lets right an official opinion gather Email names in support, then post it on site, we will boycott Seasons etc, Maxoid Mel's remark was insulting.

You're not going to realistically be able to mount a boycott against Seasons.  You won't get enough supporters.   If the thread got locked because someone called someone else a Nazi it just goes to illustrate what I have been trying to say which is that anti-paysite threads are best conducted in a civil and logical way not with a load of offensive abuse.

Something like

"My parents won't let me buy anymore expansion packs or stuff packs from EA because I have spent all my allowance on paysites."

In other words, don't give a rational reason to lock the thread/end the debate, right?

Why the bloody hell can't the mods at the BBS delete single posts?  They could then moderate, and let the civil discussion continue.

I also found this MaxoidMel person to be insulting. S/he replied in such a way that makes me wonder if s/he even read the damn thing.

I dunno, I read the whole thread and I thought the comments people made were very intelligent and thoughtful. Nothing insulting in it at all. And certainly no name-calling. Or maybe I'm desensitized to what is "inappropriate" from reading too many threads on here and MATY :roll: (Yay for free-speech!).

Also, since when is it a sin to speculate about anything? That has got to be the weirdest reason for locking a thread  :?

Well, they locked and didn't delete.  I think there is some chance that sympathy is on our side even though they have a job to do.  Mel  might have seemed annoyed cos she would have liked the thread to stay but had no option once the insults started flying.

Well, Teadrinker I have seen examples where products or places boycotted changed the execs. Were the customer if we get together in nubers we have a lot of power, low sales figures not good.
I'm tired forgive my typos
But notice he used paysites and fansites together maybe we should start a thread there...

Well EA may not of said it officially but MaxiodMel said it,

(reprint post)

Here you got it, we can see the EULA on the SIMS 2 its not worth its weight in gold. Maxoid said paysites are fansites. Maybe we should get together as a group, and make our own stuff pack of content and sell. I'm sure Insiminator  and MTS2, appreciate the extra funds. You kind of spit in their face Maxiod Mel. They were trying to obey the terms of the Eula but from what you just told us, its okay to profiteer off your game theres no EULA.

How about that dont know nerve enough to post it.

Maybe Soup Parrot has a good idea: write a petition with names and emails. But don't boycott Seasons--people simply won't do it, might say they will, but they won't. But a petition stating the reasons against paysites and how it hurts the community might get to them.

I do have a personal email address of a maxiod, and undoubtedly others have too, so we could get right into their office for sure. But I think a written hardcopy would be better, at least for the first try, with names and a listing of all EA products bought by each might make a lasting impression on them.

They would sue us instanltly for making a stuff pack and selling it.

Online petitions are pointless and ineffectual because names and emails cannot be verified.  Don't even waste your time.

Try writing guestbook messages to Mel, politely expressing your dissatisfaction with her wording.  She'll get the point.

And if she doesn't, I'd make a public thread to her.  They'll probably delete it, and may even warn you, but who cares?  It's the BBS. :P  Again, politeness is the key!

MaxiodMel=female, Melanie

I like the idea of a petition of some sort, I think we need to get to Will Wright to, its his baby.

I started to write in her guest book said, to myself she wont post it. Only if it is approved do they post it.

In short, MaxoidMel said: "it's our business, not yours".

Generally speaking, this point is correct: what to legally do about, directly, is entirely their business.

We users have a different point to focus, though, and it's about the community unwritten rules, not laws. Laws are the starting point, not the focus, of our issue against paysites.

Honestly, I don't expect too much from EA, they have goals too different from us, despite the fact they support community spirit with the Exchange: they do because of money/business help, not because of generosity or such.

Important facts are, to me, that the thread is closed, not deleted.
And PMBD links and relative comments are untouched both on my simpage and t2suggas'.

EA doesn't care what we do. Those two points you bring up make it pretty clear. If they cared, that would nipped in the bud immediately.

Actually, in their eyes, not answering this question and letting the community deal with it is very favorable to them. The more drama about this and the more people become involved, the longer their franchise lives. When people are in battle, they aren't just going to leave the community and stop buying the games. In fact, they are more likely to stay longer than they otherwise would have done, because now they have a purpose. They have to win!

You know, the EULA also specifically says not to bother EA about this, too. And frankly, I don't think it's wise to pester them. Anyone familiar with the law of unintended consequences?

Ok so they aren't going to reply or do anything about it. But maybe what we can do is continue to put up posts about paysites violating the EULA on the BBS. Not really argue or point fingers ect just simply point out that it states in the EULA that paysites shouldnt be. Just keep getting the 'word' out about them.
It's a shame someone had to use a word such as Nazi as otherwise I believe it might have been able to stay active. But that doesn't mean we can't post another about it. Only this time not ask Ea for their opinion just make it a hint like we give out game hints.
I'd do it but I'm having to borrow a computer at the moment as mine needs to dry from water being spilled on it by a moron in my house! Oh yes I won't even go into my annoyance about how that happen or even the fact that instead of wiping off my laptop they went straight for soaking it up from the carpet and didn't even bother to touch the laptop.. ::balls hand into a fist.. clears throat:: sorry.. anyway yeah I have to give this puter back now otherwise I'd start that threat over there too!

Haha! Edited cause I didn't mean to say "I'd start that threat" I honestly meant to type thread. Though it must have been my anger rubbing off on my typing.

Here's something I haven't seen mentioned--tho it might not have been mentioned because it was common knowledge--but it raised a question in mind.

Apparently, at some time in the past, the "fan site agreement" from EA, in regards to fans putting up sites for Sims 1, included this:

"Notwithstanding the foregoing, nothing herein shall prevent you from charging users of your Fan Site a modest fee to access your Fan Site."

I got this from this ancient thread on the TSR forums where paysites were being discussed: http://forums.thesimsresource.com/showpost.php?p=2307971&postcount=82

So my question is, was this a clause that did exist for Sims 1 sites and was removed for whatever reason (perhaps because EA's definition of "modest fee" and paysite owners' definitions of "modest fee" differed in a large way?)  Or does that clause still exist someplace for Sims 2 sites?  Is it revoked for both Sims 1 and Sims 2?  Were the people who thought they saw that clause hallucinating it?  What gives?

(Here is the archive version of the entire thread if anyone wants it--the archive version is less annoying than the "real version." http://forums.thesimsresource.com/archive/index.php/t-209553.html
The thread is kind of interesting--the entire archive is sort of like watching the horror that is the Sims community coming into being.)

Sims1  I always downloaded freebies!

I was reading that post you sited there and this part jumped out:

EA and its Licensors

Ok wonder where the whole EULA is for Sims2 think it been built into it upfront not hidden.

I dunno maybe this "violating the EULA" thing is barking up the wrong tree and not going to get a satisfying response.  On my (I know it's debatable) assumption that the best way to discourage paysites is to discourage people paying them, it might be the best approach in the long term is to make people who pay feel a bit silly or even irresponsible for doing so.  Actually target the subscribers - since the owners don't seem to care whether they fit into the community or not.

1. Educate sim community on Intellrctual rights, etc.

2. Check into allegations of thievery of poser meshes get proof. Get all free sites not to allow these meshes, put out notices, next and go after their paypal etc, and whatever action needs to be taken.

3.Get the poser initiative going.

EA :I will just get seasons, and possibly fall release, but will be playing spore more as it does look like not all this CC neccessary.
I think EA's employees will do in EA. What do I mean. There was an article I read back a few weeks ago that EA was in turmoil. Many of the EA programmers working overtime like 80 hrs a week, and not being paid overtime. I saw complaints were filed by several employees, went to court, but EA didnt change its policy. so a lot of overworked unhappy EA employees. That means game glitches could be a result of exhaustion as well, but unhappy employees when not treated right could get back at EA by sabatoge.

As expected, but it ended better than I would've thought.

1. It was locked, not deleted.
2. It stayed up for a long time for being "offensive", as moderation continued elsewhere on the BBS. This means that EA upper staff had to approve what was to be done with the thread, and they read it.
3. They acknowledge that there's a problem, and that's the first step to recovery.
4. "at this time."

The bandwidth permission was announced first, and only put into the Sims 1 EULA some time afterward.
The dot-com bust killed off free and ad-supported hosting for a few years- a very real and serious issue at the time. "Modest" gave the sites wiggle room because Maxis didn't want to set an amount, and then have things get worse.

What's happened is that EA's lawyers realized that the bandwidth permission left them open to / promoted paysites. This doesn't revoke the permissions given to Sims 1 for it's time. Since it's not present in the current EULA, EA does not have to honor it with Sims 2 sites.
If anyone tried to get into it seriously, it was promised by Maxis, not EA.

It's moot as to what would happen to Sims 1 paysites if EA sued, though.
First, EA wouldn't go after any site that was a real donation operation, not beyond cease and desist. Very few sites meet the definition.
Second, paysites couldn't save themselves even if the language was in the Sims 2 EULA, because paysites are stores. Whenever you can't get content until you give money, that's legally a sale. Subscriptions are sales as well, despite what many believe. Even the little "donation gifts" are considered a sale unless there's some way to get them for free.
Good intentions wouldn't protect anyone. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

I've heard conflicting reports as to what's in the EULA for the new(ish) Sims 1 box sets.
This is important because part of all EULA language includes the right to change the rules at any time without prior notification. They can't change it and then sue you for having disobeyed unless you keep it up after the change, but they don't have to notify you of revisions. You have to keep tabs on your own, if your game doesn't update dynamically.
If the Sims 1 boxsets have the omission, that means that EA won't support the bandwidth permission at all. Interesting if true.

They can't say "paysite". That's a loaded word, and it would be admission that a distinction exists between them and free fansites.
It would be "commenting" on the issue.

If this inspires someone to go check for BBS/blog mentions, you should know that offhand comments by forum mods don't count as official company statements. This keeps EA clear if one of them goes insane and promises the next EP free or something, and in cases like this where they need to cover their asses until legal can draft up a real statement.

This is how almost all game companies treat their employees, especially around the holidays. It's an industry-wide problem, and other professions do the same things.
Sabotage (malicious or intentionally letting bugs slip) isn't likely. If caught or suspected, you'd never be able to work in a coding job again. Why go pyhrric when you could quit?

Bugs do get through more commonly in these situations, but it's almost always because the publisher (EA) doesn't pay for enough playtesting or tries to rush an unfinished, over-deadline game to make Christmas.

If you don't like it, vote with your wallet- don't pay for games released buggy. They get away with it because people accept first-day patches as normal.

First DAY patches? We got a patch on the first day? Where?

They didn't even make the same quarter.

lastly they broke the record for patches, not even the same year...2007 tick tock (wasnt Pets middle Oct 2006 release), still waiting for main patch.

Yes I am, which is why I'm happy the thread is locked and can still be linked to, and I haven't said anything more about it, either privately to MaxMel or by throwing up another thread.

I mean, do we really want EA to, say, annex or buy TSR? And decide paysites are OK? Or make Sims 3 custom content-less?

.

Hardly flying. One person said nazi about one forum host and nothing else was said by anyone else. All in all it was a polite discussion except for that, and unfortunately just because it's true doesn't mean they liked it. ;)

I take MaxMel's point that it is EA's business what legal action they choose to take (I think I said that further down in the thread: they can choose to sue, or not, but that doesn't invalidate their claim). But, again, wasn't the point. So long as simmers know they don't "have" to pay and owners thinking it's OK to go pay just because "everyone else is doing it" know that 'tain't necessarily so, that's what matters.

That post was aimed at people who care if something may be illegal or not. Others don't care about that, and will respond to posts that talk about being ripped off and unfairness. Others don't care about that and will respond to posts like the ones at S2C where there is talk about poser meshes being stolen.

Others will never care about paysites at all, but once they are awrae of the phorum, MATY and PMD, they'll be happier to get the stuff for nothing anyway. :)

As LesserOr said, the thread stayed up an awfully long time, including the nazi post. I'd suggest EA made the request for the thread to be locked.

I was thinking TSR.

Nah.  They would want it deleted.

More like someone with a phobia of the word "Nazi" reported the post.  Maybe they didn't get round to reading the thread for a while, which is why it didn't get locked straight away.  but I think that's a problematic word that does tend to get complained about no matter where it appears.

I get the feeling neither EA nor the SimMasters were keen to close the thread, but they have to act if someone posts a message with either the word "Nazi" or the word "cunt" in it.

The c word verses a Nazi. Sorry the C word comparison, no way.Well if you call someone a nazi or refer to them as a nazi I dont see how you can call it a nasty word. First of all its used historically, in movies  in reference to Hitler and his group. Not used as name calling but as a poitical reference. I dont see that referring to someone as Nazi like behavior or is a Nazi (which is that persons opinion) is name calling unless you like Nazis. the Nazis historically were evil and set a statandard in our modern world. cant use Nazi? The C word I think is inapproriate on a forum that has children on it, that i dont see a comparison to. Nazi, maybe Maxoid Mel is one cause she gets uppity of its use, it was not a racial slur, it was a political party that tried to take over the world, killed millions etc. Many people use this word, I think when you start using this as a reason for closing thread, thats pretty weak. Its used a lot, even though the Nazis were evil in many a eye, the word beside a real racial slur, does not have the same tone. When I see it used, I take  half reference to it, and can clearly see its an apoinion, and used as kind of a slang verb for Nazi like. The language and the tone are not the same when a person uses it in comparison to the C word. The c word from what I can tell was devoloped to be an insult, but NAZIS Were real lots of historical proof to that fact.

I am not likening the two words to each other, just pointing out that they receive similar knee-jerk complaints, that tend to be settled by a harrassed moderator locking or deleting the thread.   Representatives of the PMBD cause can help to keep threads alive by avoiding posting the more typical thread-killers.

Teadrinker I know you arent. i was just saying there is no similarity to these 2 words uses, and how nazi was used in the thread was namecalling. They did not say TSR are nazis, but like,
clipped from:
They make so much money, they have to pay Value Added Tax in Great Britian. He runs his forums like a nazi,

like a nazi is not namecalling. They just looked for anything to close it down with. The whole thread was civil. Lots of people are reading it, numbers picking up. Maybe people go out and think, before jumping in to subscribe.

Anyway, all's well that ends well.  The thread remains to be read.  That beats before when they got snarfed by the next morning.

...not that I am quite sure of the definition of "snarfed", first seen emitting from Pescado's keyboard.

OK, I'd better fess up. I'm the one who posted the "offensive thread" at the BBS. I don't really care anymore if people know who I am. I am so disgusted with Thomas and TSR, I kind of exploded. I'm usually much more diplomatic though. Maybe I've been over here too much.

In the interests of political correctness, I shan't call them Nazi's, but TSR are pretty inflexible.  I have always had the feeling that the rules are more important than the customers, who are there only to give the moderators the pleasure of watching rules being enforced :)

Dissenchanted I read how you worded,  when you say like you are not namecalling. If you said they are thatcould of been said. Just think our thread might be seen as controversial, and gets lots of readers lol cause of your supposed name calling. The name calling issue was subjective, and just excuse by Mel to lock it up. I dont blame you I dont think anyone else does.

I've not been here long and im disgusted, I blame EA for being too lazy to get their overpaid lawyers to crank out Legal Mumbo Jumbo letters to these people for the good of the community.

Needing rather than getting, in this case, but I meant underbaked games in general.

Though "we'll patch it when we figure out where we assigned the code monkeys" does belong in its own special category.

It's not laziness IMO, they have to ride the fence or risk making one segment or the other angry when they lower the boom. If however, they become convinced that an overwhelming majority of the fans are on one side or the other, they might.

Clearly, they knew people would modify the Sims 2, they provided tools to do so, and a place to exchange them. I think it surprised them how far people could take the mods though.

I think why they are doing sims 3, redesigning it like spore so, that user can create all its content within the game, etc. So that cut out 3rd party cc. Only allow users to share creations within their network you know. So, they may be saying to themselves, well a couple more paks, and Sims 3 coming out, no need to waste the effort cleaning up these paysites now.

Spore will be moddable. Sims 3 will be moddable. If EA is smart, they'll release the games with nice official toolsets like Oblivion and Neverwinter Nights have. If they aren't smart, someone in the community will come up with user tools. And whatever mods people make will be all over the internet. It's the way PC games work. So... wtf are you talking about?

Neriana, i was watching a bunch of google movies on spore, demonstrations, interviews with will wright, and all about spore. I got the very distinct impression maybe you should go listen to all them, then you will know what Im talking about, it is not going to be useing all this made CC, you have to listen and see. If EA makes Sims 3 like Spore, paysites, MTS2 wont be necessary just the EA site for user.

I got banned from a chat room for calling a mod a nazi once... the mods were telling racist jokes aimed at me when I mentioned I was half black, and they called me hitler for objecting (??????  :shock:), but since one of them happened to be German, I got banned for "harassing the mods".


I keep remembering that when I read threads like that one.