PMBD

If your aim is to have paysites shut down rather than having them see that it is actually illegal/immoral/unethical/whatever to make stuff and charge for it against EA's TOS (the one we all agree to when we install the game), therefore making the content free instead, then here's a thought:

There are many sites who make shops based on a commercial venture (eg McDonald's or Krispy Kreme). These corporations are rampant regarding their trade mark images and will send an automatic "cease and desist" order to anyone who usess them. Likewise, Disney, The Simpsons, KMart etc. Note: I am not against anyone making toys/shops for these corporations for the sims -- I am against people expecting to be paid to use IP owned by EA Games and trade marks owned by others. The same people will accuse this site of "stealing" files. Hypocrisy at its best.

Also (and this is a HUGE bugbear to me), sites that download artist's images (such as, for example, the wonderful Jonathan Bowser at http://www.jonathanart.com ) and then throw them on a Maxis mesh as a picture or clothing item (*grr Sapphire Sims*) and expect payment for doing that, need to get a reality check. These people have clearly stolen that artwork. Let the artists know. They will usually send a note or two.  :wink:

Again, I have no objection to clothing and pictures based on other people's art, provided the original artist is fine with it. I also have no objection to people who do this getting kudos throughout the community for their extra work, provided credit is given to the original artist and the content is free. These paysites are the true pirates, if they charge money because they stole someone else's original art.

I tend to respect TS2 custom content artists' wishes simply because that's who I am, whether they have the right to make that assertion or not (eg, I don't mind not sharing an original free mesh, and I am happy to give credit where credit is due). But I will tell non-TS2 original artists when a paysite has used their work without permission. They have the right to know, and then decide if they're happy with the situation or stop it.

I am a huge believer in copyright and trade mark law being there to protect the original creators of IP, but also to promote creativity (as the original legislation intended before conglomerations got involved). Mesh makers and the talented makers of custom content for the sims 2 should be credited, thanked and lauded if their stuff is good. They do put a lot of work into their stuff. They just shouldn't be paid for making something from an intellectual property base that doesn't belong to them.

For the record, I work in the arts industry and am well-versed with US, Euro and Australian copyright, patents and trade mark law. All custom content for any computer game is covered by "fair use" and it is therefore neither illegal to make or share such content, whether the custom content creator charges for it or not, provided such content is free.

It becomes more complicated when textures are involved.

An example: Enayla's wonderful skins (they're free). The skins cannot be governed by copyright, as they are based on the maxi's code and mesh and for the game. However, the paintjob she did for them is covered by copyright, as Enayla is the originator of that art. By putting her original art in a maxis game, she has (according to her agreement with EA in TS2 TOS) therefore given tacit permission for her skins to be distributed freely.

BUT, if anyone was to take the art used on the skins (the leaves and patterns) and use them in another (non Maxis/EA) media, then charge for it, she'd have the right to have that person sued for use of her original art.

The broohaha about this site "stealing" work is uninformed at best (how can you steal something you paid for?).

I thought about this, but based on what I saw in Poser Community, bad idea it could impact all sims creations negatively. Let me tell you a story.

There was once and artist creator and her husband team, they created a competetitor website to Renderosity, 3D commune, 3D Daz, RDNA, called Poser Pros. I think at one point she was branching into Sims 2 with a small forum, I remember seeing her small site, I think it had some sims pay stuff. She had two collections of swatches, which people had bought to make commercial textures with mostly for Poser models. LOTS of people had these sets and she made a lot of money off them. Well their site had grown, had really taken off. Then one day she got in a bruhahha about 2-3 years ago (how time flies), with a famous web designer of good repute, who had, had some products up at Poser pros. Well, the tiffs got posted publicly in her forum.

The webdesigner wanted with her permission to make a package of swatches based off hers. She sent her a sample of what she'd like to do. Mehndi cried copyright violation. Well the web designer had commercial icense to William Morris patterns, so she was upset, and suggested that Mendhi's swatches were stolen. Well now other members involved, started investigating. They found that Mendhi's seamless patterns of Morris were matching a wallpaper company's online swatches. Someone had contacted the company with samples and questions. They were told they had bought commercial rights to use Morris works, but their pattern was slightly altered and copyrighted. Both Mendhi and this wallpaper company were American. Now the wallpaper company's lawyers was contacting Mendhi and her husband to sue for copyright violation. Poserpros fate was up in the air. To save it she  sold the site to DAZ3d, current owners. I never heard what all happened with Mendhi and wallpaper company afterwards, as she lost all reputation, and had a lot of angry people at her. All the swatches were not legal to use, every site they had to pull their commercial works and revise them.

So this produced a ripple of fear through all Poser sites, they toughened up laws for free and commercial product submissions, to protect themselves against being sued. So can you imagine the panic, MTS2 other sites would feel, at the threat of a lawsuit, so much free stuff could be pulled, even though I don't think free sites are at jeopardy. The only thing is I had taken a class in copyright, by copyright lawyer. In Exnem, and others who countries obey copyright laws, and all them they are looking at if caught getting sued, pecause they are taking a copyrighted image, etc, and selling it commercially. But, in the case of using something freely that is used for fun freely in a game by the public, no charge, it would be hard case to fight in court.

 I laugh at all these copyrghts term of use things that are coming with freebies. Car models and cars are copyrighted by car companies, I found this out in poser world. Basically illegal to use in advertisement, then some little content creator is going to dictate terms to me of usage, on a trademarked item, with a borrowed model. Same with electronic brandname stuff, or fashion designers photo made clothers. Do you know the original artist that took the picture of the dress owns that photo. tHey wouldnt of been able to create tthe dress without the photo, etc. if you originally created or designed it bravo, but there are lots of #D models out there for free that could probably be convered to game meshes like the cars. Some artists are honest and say this isnt my model, I got it here etc but I think to give us a terms of use is too much.

 8)  :evil:

Being sued cannot happen with no first action. For legal proceedings to begin, a cease and desist order must be sent first. Lawsuits can't just materialize out of nowhere without this order.

In fact, if I recall, Retail Sims received such a letter from Starbucks over one of her sets.

Free sites would have nothing to fear because they aren't making monies off registered trademarks and such. It's just once you start making money, you not only have to remove the files, you also have to turn over all the profits you made.  Could get quite interesting, indeed, in paysite land.



On another note, not all third party artwork that is turned into stuff by modders is stolen. Stephanie Pui-Mun Law allowed all of her paintings to be put on painting meshes for Sims 1 (not sure about Sims 2) so long as you asked and placed credit in the file.

Thanks for this thread and your posts, they're very very interesting, as they opens mind even more to this complex issue, and add very useful infos.

Now I'm thinking that the fact that real professional artists and programmers are just those who care less of the profitability of sims' custom stuff, and the most open to free use of their works. There has to be a logical reason for this.

This make sense: the most professional you are, the most you know for real HOW this things work. Besides, the most idiotic your terms of use or "copyrights" demands are, the most you are only a loser wannabe.
I don't know exactly why, but all this makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside :D.

I could bet that the most part of great modders are also real programmers, who's job is writing code. Uh-oh, coincidence: the same most part also share their mods for free.
Personal story: I'm a Linda Bergkvist's works fan by many years, as she is a famous world-wide fantasy artist, and I felt very (and happily) surprised when discovered that she were Enayla in this community.
Guess how many paysites she has and how restrictive is her policy (http://www.furiae.com/images2/enayla.txt)? :D

Linda Bergkvist is Enayla?!  Holy crap that's awesome.

Yes, she is very, very talented.

See, professionals in the industry (coders, artists) understand what copyright really means. :D

I'm curious as to how many members here are involved in related industries. Since I'm a guild member, its difficult for me to gauge just how much of this is a "those-in-the-know" versus "those-not-in-the-know" or just a "smart people" versus "sheeple."

If that makes sense. I have a feeling a lot of what I've been posting today and yesterday has sounded odd due to me being on massive amounts of painkillers due to surgery the other day.

Stim Im not saying  all free stuff is stolen. On the autos, I will search and find the forum dialoque over at DAZ3D that explains this, about cars as one freelance professional found out. There are strict rules on poser and most meshes with free stuff to, you do not have the right to redistrubute, alter mesh in any format, they are copyrighted. They were not made in EA games product or for that format.

Stim POSER artist do mind  and do not allow their meshes to be converted and distributed in games, thats a violation of EULA. I know because I have seen these questions asked in copyright forum over at Renderosity, and how mad they get and its a no no even if its free. When you buy a mesh set or textures , you can only use it to make artwork with, these cannot be put in any kind of distributable format whether its free or for profit. You cannot alter the meshes either.Now if you buy skin kits etc, different EULA. Many artists are not aware of their work being stolen, or the person is in a nation where they cannot enforce international laws. If you have proof meshes are being stolen, you need to contact the Artist and site their mesh is sold at. They have ways of opening stuff up and looking at it to know. I have lots of EULA for Poser as I have boughten much, if I could attach Eula I would. i will have to see if I can find several online. They may in some countries if the cant sue to shut down the site. They have done it, I have seen it.

also., I think you lost my point. If say Harry goes over to Brad who has a bunch of Car models he created, gets permission for game use. Converts it, puts it at MSs2 and gives you his copyright, and terms of usage, not Brads whos the meshes copyright holder. he has no authority to because he's not the mesh owner, brad is the owner. now do you get it?

Anyways what you didnt understand was I was saying that fear went through all sites, whether item was free or pay fear of being sued changed  how everything was done, severely. Some things had to be pulled. If there was a massive crackdown from various places on paysites, and paysites were forced to shut down fear could ripple down to Insim, MTS2, putting stricter guidelines up, etc, even though their free. When I was working on my portfolio close to graduating you could have nothing from Disney, real company, etc. You could make up companies, even though a portfolio is not a product you sale, its a no no. We were told horror stories about Disney. One Daycare center painted a wall of Disney characters, they got reported, had to take it down. You think Disney would love Kids around the stuff, so they would want all their movies and stuff. Doesnt work that way though.

You're making perfect sense to me. I hope you feel better soon. :)

But this is what owners of paysites don't undestand when they say that they are only charging for their work. Stephanie Pulman-Law is a good example, for she gave permission for (limited) use of her original work.

EA/Maxis have done the same with their game. In effect, this is called a limited "creative commons license". What that does is say, "Ok, you can take our work and modify it, under these conditions" (and conditions follow). This is the original intention of copyright law: protect the original owner of the original work, while allowing others to make use of it, build on it and encourage creatvity. It does not allow for anyone making any sort of profit from their work, unless the original owner specifies they can, because their work on the packages, while creative, good work in many cases, is still using a base the creator doesn't actually own. They cannot copyright the resultant package.

And, even if they tried to, copyright law in the US doens't allow for prosecution unless that copyright is registered (this is not currently the case in euro/australia, although I suspect with Australia's new Free Trade Agreement with the US our much more balanced copyright law may fly out the window).

Under world law, copyright only protects original work. Any created package is not an original work, it is an extension of EA/Maxi's original work under creative commons. Therefore, paysites have no legal right to charge for the packages.

I have had some trouble trying to explain this to mesh makers (who pm'd me on another site), because of the insistence that they should be rewarded for their work. No. These (very talented in many cases) creators do what they do voluntarily under the agreement they made with maxis when they installed the game. Good cc makers understand this, and offer their stuff for free and choose to bear the cost. They may ask for donations, but it shouldn't be a precondition of download -- the policy MTS2, Insimenator.net and others work under is legal, paysites are not.

While it is absolutely NOT OK for another person to use another's meshes or textures and claim them as their own, neither is it OK for ccers to use the .package format and charge for it, for it is, likewise, not theirs to charge for.

Another analogy is this:

Why don't people charge for sims stories and other fanfic? We pay in the shops for books. The reason is this: we understand that, while the story I write is itself my copyrighted work, the images that go with them are not: they are based on a game I did not create and therefore can not demand payment for (or, in the case of most fanfic, characters I did not create).

I could take out the sim images, rewrite the story later and sell it freely as a novel, stripped of sims references (including well-known Maxis sims like Goopy, etc), because I do own the story, and I own the story from the moment I write it down/type it into my hard drive, with or without registration or a copyright symbol (although, in the US, I couldn't take action on a copyright violation without registration but publishers take care of that).  And yes, online stories are covered by this copyright in every country that follows world copyright protocol, including the US, Australasia and Euro: online publishing is still publishing.

What I cannot do is breach the CCL granted to me by Maxis/EA when I installed the game and sell the pictures that go along with it, even if I did work very hard on getting the camera angles just so or spent many hours making cc for my personal use (as I do).

I hope that makes what I've been saying clearer. I'm sorry for the long ramble, but I'm hoping some of the pay owners will read this and see some sense, and this is probably the only forum I can freely try to explain the actual law without being flamed/banned.  I have the utmost resopect for the creativity in the sims2 community. :D

It is true that "cease and desist" orders must be produced before legal action -- and, in point of law, many of these are handed out willy nilly in breach of "fair use" and are done so to scare people off (I could point to one here in Oz where a man surnamed McDonald was "requested" to remove his own name from his business name, along with sporting Tshirts for a footy team his business sponsored, because the US conglomerate didn't like him using it.  the case went to court. The restaurant lost). But that's the point. ;) In the case of paysites, willy-nilly wouldn't apply, though. They are clearly disregarding the license they agreed to by installing the game.

Yes. I hold Disney responsible for some of the less legal "cease and desists" people get. They are one of the companies that overdo copyright protection and fenagle fair use (the daycare co would/should be protected under fair use). The irony is that Walt himself was a huge believer in what we now call creative commons. He'd be twisting in his grave.

To elaborate on the rest of your post: it is not OK for Harry to take Brad's mesh and claim ownership on it for the Sims 2 packages. Brad does hold the copyright, on the mesh alone. However, Brad does not own the copyright to the resulting Sims car, and neither does Harry. Why? The resulting package made is a code owned by Maxis, and the car he based the auto on is owned by the company who built it. In fact, that last bit could even negate Brad's "ownership" of the mesh, as he copied it from someone else. Having said that, I believe the mesh would fall under the same useage as it would if he had painted an image of the car: the artist owns the picture, not the car company.

Over-reaction by any site doesn't negate the law. :)

beth,
I think where the issue is lets take the car issue here a minute. Though the artist that created the car model, the car company gets em because it bears their trademarked company logo and name of it. My point was one guy, made the model to use for all or most 3D apps. The sim content maker converts it to work in  the game and then tells us what we may or may not do with it, like hes the copyright owner hes not. I was merely talking about the illogic etc. the reason why I brought that up I was over reading Delphy's post on the board. That bothered me a lot. I'm seriously thinking of writing EA for clarification, whether they will answer me or not, Im tired of all these copyright claims. I saw this with PSP when the  people stole the images for the tubes etc. It was ridiculous. Anyways I think Maxis, after reading through tons of Spore data is going to have control of that content, it sounds like there will be all these sophisticated things in the game, to keep people from being able to do what they did with Sims. I was reading an article where Will Wright said too much of the sims CC has too much noise and whistles in it.

Soup, I don't think we're disagreeing here. :)

I used to be a member of the PSP User's Group, way back in... my god, was it really 7 years ago? I was heather_ozzie then, iirc.  I remember a brouhaha there re tubes, and in this case, the image makers were rightfully upset... except that no-one was actually charging for the tubes (that I ever saw, anyways). The issue was credit, I thought, and using original work without permission. I think I've already mentioned that I don't agree with even free sites using an artist's original work without even giving that artist the right to object.

I have been involved in a lot of fun CRPG communities, too (usually as bethgael) and I have never, ever seen anyone charging for any of the game mods or add-ons for Baldur's Gate, Age of Wonders, NWN, etc., even where some (myself included) have spent, literally, weeks in actual time recoding mods and add-ons for a game. One BGII fan spent almost nine months building a game add-on that put a decent romance plotline into the game for females and also an alternative Kiven/Deheriana plot for the guy players who didn't really want to fall in love with Kivan, a popular BGI NPC who wasn't actually included in the sequel. If anyone tried to charge *gasp* money for them, they'd be flamed off the forum. ;)

The Sims Paysites are unique in the gaming world that way, I think.

lol I posted a link to this thread on S2C, but it got deleted.  :P  You guys should really post some of this stuff in the paysites thread there.

I played Zoo Tycoon no one ever charged either. They asked for donations, then the company did a second release and ruined the game.
Lets hope seasons doest bury sims with glitches!

You know what do you think will be next after seasons, I hope they bring in some Sim City Elements. :D

Good fucking grief, Blue. Keeping an eye on flaming and what-have-you is one thing, but when did education become anathema?

PS Feel free to quote me, as she suggests.

lol Delphy is a male, and not a female. ;)  I'm not doing it, I think that you should post it there.

blue i'd love to discuss this over there, and at Insim. Problem is did you see Delphy's big sticky over, I know you did how we'd get deleted, locked, banned etc. I noticed Christmas day he came here and was chatting. Here's the link to his post :(
http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=31001

Hi All,

Recently there have been multiple threads regarding paysites, and included therein are sites that re-distribute files without the content creators consent.

This issue (and that about paysites) gets talked about all the damn time, with thread after thread after thread about it - and frankly, I'm getting tired of beating people over the head, so the buck stops here and now.

Anyone posting links or in a thread about anyone redistributing content - pay or otherwise - against the creators wishes or their terms of use will be warned for advocation of theft of intellectual property. Some of you are very vocal on this topic, but honestly, get over it. We don't care what you think certain EULAs state - we do not tolerate that sort of thing here.

This forum is not your own personal soapbox. No matter what you think, you have no rights over distributing anybody elses content, nor can you use this site to promote any site that does. As a community we can discuss the ethics of why things are the way they are, but as a site we do not encourage filesharing and we respect the wishes of individual creators.

* If you post a thread about this topic, you will be warned.
* If you post a link to sites that promote this topic, you will be warned.
* If you think we are all nazis and censoring you, you will be smacked upside the head becuase you have no rights here and future posting privileges are at the absolute discretion of the staff only.
* If you are able to discuss things in a manner that befits this site, then feel free to continue posting.
* If you see a thread on this topic, report it. Do not post in it saying "I don't think this is allowed", just report the thing - thats what the button is there for.

Everybody else, carry on doing what you normally do.

Regards
Delphy
Last edited by Delphy : 12-15-2006 at 05:12 AM.
 
SO, guess if we dont discuss advocating or justifying file sharing or mention these sites he cant ban us or close topic?

Bethgael, thank you for taking the time to come here and explain this. I was flailing around and trying to explain copyright stuff on an earlier thread, but I'm not nearly so well versed as you are and I ended up mostly just flailing around. *g*

Yeah. He. I did mean he. Really. *sigh* Almost midnight here.

Editing rather than doubleposting my own topic. Reading through the paysites thread now. This is hilarious:



Now where's that rollin' on the floor laughing 'till you're blue smilie when you need it?  :lol:

Won't, not can't.

I cant find the thread where you all here at the site were doing hair comparison between poser models and Rose and Peggy. Can someone point me there.

I  want to to put some Poser artists EULAS up, I will post these here, so everyone can read. Looking through some zips.BRB

PS I dont know  if this will work maybe I will write Delphy privately about some issues, and see if we can discuss them there, AS long as we agree not to mention this site or advocate file "sharing". What do you think?

The hair comparisons were done in this thread.

http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=30984

Post number 312 is where comparisons start.

I will exercise my amazing psychic powers.

They:

1. Don't understand that a .package is different than a .jpg (I often think because all the coding work was done for them.)
When it's explained, they brush it off by saying "that's stupid" or "Well anyway, that doesn't matter, because-".

2. Think that EA's copyright can't possibly overrule their nebulous rights because:
A.) EA is their bestest friend and would of course support Artists by giving them anything they want!
B.) EA is a big evil corporation and they are raging against the machine and the raping of the glory that was the Sims until EA and/or Maxis destroyed it by coming out with ((Insert name of the latest expansion))!

3. Are immune to cognitive dissonance. Especially as it applies to claiming that EULAs aren't legally binding, while screaming that their TOS has been violated.
Bonus points if the creation loudly in question is photoskinned from a brand name catalog, on top of a stolen mesh.

4. Only bother reading into copyright law up to the point that they think they've found proof for their argument. Even this is usually pre-chewed and misquoted.
When the problem(s) in their theory are pointed out, they cannot be held responsible, because they are not lawyers.
This is the ultimate defense, because if you Don't Understand hard enough, all problems disappear.

5. Never do more than click through the EULAs.
If they did, they'd realize that EA could, according to what they agreed, scoop up all their content and slap it into an expansion. Without having to warn players to keep it off fat sims.
Of course EA wouldn't commit suicide in such a colorful way, but if these creators knew EA could, they'd dissolve into vapors.


It's largely hopeless, because the ones who argue are either willfully ignorant or have entitlement issues.
The deeper in they get, the more stubborn they become, because they can't possibly be wrong. If they were wrong, they'd have to stop what they were doing.
And that would be bloggable tragedy.

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5. INFRINGEMENT WARRANTY. DAZ warrants to the User that, to the best of its knowledge, the digital data comprising the 3-D Model(s) do not infringe the rights, including patent, copyright and trade secret rights, of any third party, nor was the digital data unlawfully copied or misappropriated from digital data owned by any third party; provided, however, that DAZ makes no representation or warranty with respect to infringement of any third party's rights in any image, trademarks, works of authorship or object depicted by such 3-D Model(s).

6. OTHER RESTRICTIONS. This Agreement is your proof of License to exercise the rights granted herein and must be retained by you. User shall not give, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer or dispose of the 3-D Model(s) on a temporary or permanent basis without the prior written consent of DAZ. DAZ'S 3-D Model(s) and/or contracts are non-transferable and shall only be used by the Licensed User. User may not reverse engineer, de-compile, disassemble, or create derivative works from the 3-D Model(s). These restrictions do not pertain to rendered images or pre-rendered animations.

7. PROTECTION AND SECURITY. User agrees not to disclose, publish, release, transfer, or otherwise make available the 3-D Model(s), or any portion thereof, in any form, to any person, other than User's employees, without prior written consent from DAZ. User agrees that the 3-D Model(s) is the property of and proprietary to DAZ, and further agrees to protect the 3-D Model(s) and all parts thereof from unauthorized disclosure and use by its agents, employees, or customers. User shall be exclusively responsible for the selection, supervision, management, control, and use of the 3-D Model(s). User agrees to do all within their power to insure that their employees or any other user of the 3-D Model(s), complies with the terms and conditions of this Agreement. And User agrees to do all within their power to insure that their employees or any other user of the 3-D Model(s) refrains from taking any steps, such as reverse assembly or reverse compilation, to derive a source code equivalent of the 3-D Models.

8. EXPORT RESTRICTIONS. The 3-D Model(s) may be subject to the export controls of the United States Departments of State and Commerce and User agrees to fully comply with all applicable United States export regulations governing export, destination, ultimate end user, and other restrictions relating to the 3-D Models.

9. UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT RESTRICTED RIGHTS. If you are acquiring the 3-D Model(s) on behalf of any unit or agency of the United States Government, the following provision applies-- It is acknowledged that the 3-D Model(s) and the documentation were developed at private expense and that no part is in the public domain and that the 3-D Model(s) and documentation are provided with restricted rights. Use, duplication, or disclosure by the Government is subject to restrictions as set forth in Subparagraph (c)(1)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data and Computer Software clause at DFARS 252.227-7013, or Subparagraphs (c)(1) and (2) of the Commercial Computer Software--Restricted Rights at 48 CFR 52.227-19, as applicable. Contractor/Manufacturer is DAZ Productions, INC., 1350 E. Draper Parkway, Draper, UT 84020.

10. PATENT, COPYRIGHT, AND TRADE SECRET INDEMNITY. User agrees to indemnify and hold harmless DAZ against all liability resulting from or related to any claim of patent or copyright infringement, misappropriation, or misuse of trade secrets or other proprietary rights based upon the use by User of the 3-D Model(s), or any portion thereof, in whatever form, or the exercise by User of any rights granted under this Agreement.

11. LIMITED WARRANTY. DAZ warrants that the 3-D Model(s) will perform substantially in accordance with the accompanying written materials for a period of seven (7) days from the date of receipt. Upon the return of the defective media and a copy of the invoice, DAZ has the option to replace the media or refund the purchase price. In the event DAZ elects to refund the purchase price, User's License is revoked and User warrants and agrees to return the 3-D Model(s) to DAZ and to destroy any and all copies made therefrom. In no event shall DAZ'S liability exceed the purchase price of the License of the 3-D Model(s). If the media was damaged by accident, abuse, or misapplication, DAZ shall have no obligation to replace the media or refund the purchase price. All replacement media will be warranted for a like period of seven (7) days. There is no warranty after the expiration of the warranty period.

12. NO OTHER WARRANTIES. DAZ DISCLAIMS ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR ARISING FROM USAGE OF TRADE OR COURSE OF DEALING OR PERFORMANCE, WITH RESPECT TO THE 3-D MODEL(S), AND THE ACCOMPANYING WRITTEN MATERIALS. IN NO EVENT SHALL DAZ OR ITS DEALERS, DISTRIBUTORS, OFFICERS, AGENTS, EMPLOYEES, OR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER, WHETHER BASED ON CONTRACT, TORT, WARRANTY, OR OTHER LEGAL OR EQUITABLE GROUNDS, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF BUSINESS PROFITS, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, LOSS OF BUSINESS INFORMATION, OR OTHER PECUNIARY LOSS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE 3-D MODEL(S), EVEN IF DAZ HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. BECAUSE SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, THE ABOVE LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

13. NO LIABILITY FOR HARDWARE. User assumes complete responsibility for all hardware used in conjunction with the 3-D Model(s). DAZ shall not be responsible in any way for the non-performance or malfunction of any hardware used in conjunction with the 3-D Model(s), nor for any damages whatsoever arising out of the use of any hardware.

14. INDEMNIFICATION. User shall defend, indemnify, and hold DAZ harmless from any actions, claims, or proceedings with respect to the 3-D Model(s) or other provisions of this Agreement.

15. REMEDIES. The remedies provided herein shall not be deemed exclusive, but shall be cumulative and shall be in addition to all other remedies provided by law and equity. No delay or omission in the exercise of any remedy herein provided or otherwise available to DAZ shall impair or effect DAZ'S right to exercise the same. An extension of indulgence or forbearance (which must be in writing) shall not otherwise alter or effect DAZ'S rights or obligations nor be deemed to be a waiver thereof. The parties hereto agree that breach of any provisions of non-disclosure, secrecy, confidentiality, copying, use, protection, and security in this Agreement by User will cause immediate and irreparable damage and injury to DAZ. Each of the parties confirms that damages at law may be an inadequate remedy for breach or threatened breach of any such provisions. The parties agree that in such event DAZ shall be entitled by right to an Injunction restraining the User from violating any of said provisions. User hereby acknowledges that DAZ has disclosed or will disclose to User valuable proprietary data set products, which are new and unique and give DAZ a competitive advantage in the marketplace; that DAZ intends to use such information to expand its business throughout the world; and that a violation of any of the provisions of this Agreement is material and important and DAZ shall, in addition to all other rights and remedies available hereunder, at law or otherwise, be entitled to a Temporary Restraining Order and an Injunction to be issued by any court of competent jurisdiction enjoining and restraining User from committing any violation of said provisions, and User shall consent to the issuance of such Injunction. User acknowledges that the remedies provided for in this Agreement are not injurious to nor violative of any public interest or policy, and will not create a hardship greater than is necessary to protect the interest of DAZ.

16. GENERAL PROVISIONS.

a. Costs and Expenses of Enforcement. In the event of the failure of either party hereto to comply with any provisions of this Agreement, the defaulting party shall pay any and all costs and expenses, including reasonable attorneys' fees arising out of or resulting from such default (including any incurred in connection with any appeal), incurred by the injured party in enforcing its rights and remedies, whether such right or remedy is pursued by filing a lawsuit or otherwise.

b. Governing Law, Jurisdiction, and Venue. This Agreement is governed by the laws of the State of Utah. Jurisdiction and venue for the enforcement of this Agreement shall be found exclusively in the courts within Utah County, State of Utah.

c. Trademark and Copyright. All DAZ products are trademarks or registered trademarks of DAZ Productions, INC. All other brand and product names are trademark or registered trademark of their respective holders.

DAZ Productions, INC., 2004.

I am in the process of composing a lengthy reply at S2C, so thatnks for posting that; it saves me from looking it up!  :lol:

Poserpros is owned by DAz3d so Im pretty sure its the same as above.
Here is from Renderosity. i think its old. There are different rules for certain things.

LICENSE FOR ITEMS PURCHASED THROUGH THE MARKETPLACE AT RENDEROSITY This license only applies to items purchased through The MarketPlace at Renderosity, not to any items from the Free Stuff area. It is the Buyers responsibility to read and understand this license. If you are unsure about anything, please send an email to store@renderosity.com. The Artist (Author) retains all copyrights to the enclosed materials. The Buyer is not purchasing the contents, only the right to use the contents. The Buyer may not redistribute this archive file, in whole or in part. The Buyer may not store it any place on a network or on the Internet where it may be referenced by a third party. Buyer acquires the copyright to any derivative works created using this work, provided none of the original materials can be extracted from the derivative work by any means. If Artist can show that any of the original material can be extracted from Buyer's derivative work, Artist can demand both the original and derivative work, and all copies thereof be deleted. For example, Buyer cannot make an image of a texture map mapped to a flat plane, such that the original texture map can be cut & pasted from the image. This is designed to protect the Artist from Buyers releasing work, which lets other users obtain the copyrighted material, and is not meant to infringe upon the artistic endeavors of the Buyer. Buyer may not make any MetaStream animation files with the enclosed materials, until this format can protect the original materials from being extracted. In the event a Buyer is not satisfied with the product a refund may be issued. Issuing refunds is at the discretion of the Artist and / or the Renderosity MarketPlace staff. Refunds will be issued only after the Buyer has worked with the Artist to fix the problem. When a refund is issued, the Buyer is responsible for deleting all files using the product and may not distribute the product. To protect the Buyer: Buyer is hereby granted a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use all of the contents of the encapsulating archive file. Artist maintains that all items in the archive are their original work, or are derivative works from something found, and verified, to be in the public domain. Artist maintains they legally possess the power to grant the Buyer this license for all enclosed materials. Buyer may use the materials in any personal projects or commercial projects, as long as the Artist 's work is protected from extraction and none of the items above have been violated. Buyer may make a single backup copy of this archive file, for personal archival purposes only. Buyer retains this license, even if the Artist stops selling this work at a later date, or decides to charge a different price. The Artist may only revoke this license, if it is shown that a Buyer has previously violated the terms and conditions above.


read this thread:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2675662

No, no, I understood you. And I didn't think you thought all third party work was stolen either. I think something got lost between my brain to fingers though, sorry about that. Painkillers, blah.

I was trying to explain that while being sued might be a big fear, it really shouldn't effect free sites because they'd have to get those cease & desist orders. They don't have to worry about residuals in paying for licensing for registered trademarks and such from corporations such as Disney. Paysites, however, have a lot to fear over that because they are profiting from something that under no interpretation of the law is theirs. Free sites are fine because if they get the C&D, they just remove stuff.

Stim  thats ok.

I was going to post then, Ive held off Blue, because I've taken another course of action, as soon as they get back to me, I will explain. But i was just checking Rose was affected by the earthquake too.

Argh!!! I just spent a good 45 minutes typing in a measured, good response only to find when I hit submit that I'd been logged out of the site in the meantime. I usually hit ctrl-C before hitting post, but forgot (it *is* almost new year here).

Stupid fragging site. Hitting "back" should have worked.

Will try again when less irritated.  :?

Geesh Delphy their discussing crack for pirated photoshop over here http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?p=713463